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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 21:58:54 GMT
Why is the Finnish model so successful then, and their education system the envy of the world, genuine question? Yes the economies are different but it's all scalable in principal. There is no hang up about class in some of these progressive, forward thinking countries, and there's certainly no weird hang up with the "elite ruling classes" like we seem to have here in the UK. If you want to truly do something about inequality in society you have to be radical in your thinking...... There ain’t no utopia though. Finland, sadly, has one of the highest suicide rates in the world (well in the upper quartile) The sad ole UK is in the third quartile. It’s now 22nd and has halved since 1990 thanks to a number of initiatives (and investment) The world’s happiest nation for two years running according to a UN yearly survey, and 86% are happy with their work/life balance, the highest in Europe.....
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Post by hammered on Sept 23, 2019 23:26:54 GMT
Lots of skews from this but the abolition of private schools will do nothing to change inequality or opportunity imo. Likewise it feels like a big brother moment where going forward only state approved learning is allowed. And make Jezza/McDonald massive hypocrits.
Life outcomes have many variables and being born with a silver spoon obviously brings benefits etc.. but doesn't guarantee life fulfilment or success. The rich have dumb/lazy kids...and the poor/ave joe, bright and inspired but for many, one of the few things a parent can give their kids is (opportunity) the best education they can afford or find - the (employment desired measurable) outcomes still in the main depend on the iq, attitude, drive of the child but it's natural to want your kids to get a decent start in life whatever your circumstances.
I'm another who moved to a grammer catchment in Essex, paid for supplementary tutoring to help them through 11+ and drove my kids to try and make the best of their abilities. All 3 have been/are at Uni. (Kent, Bath & Cambridge).
Like it or not - better schools (even state funded ones) insist on performance driven achievement with high standards of disipline - simply leveling the schooling system doesnt solve social demographics or wealth - it crushes the natural human instinct to grow and learn.
For me - the bottom of the system needs to aspire the standards at the top (not the other way).
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 24, 2019 0:08:23 GMT
Lots of skews from this but the abolition of private schools will do nothing to change inequality or opportunity imo. Likewise it feels like a big brother moment where going forward only state approved learning is allowed. And make Jezza/McDonald massive hypocrits. Life outcomes have many variables and being born with a silver spoon obviously brings benefits etc.. but doesn't guarantee life fulfilment or success. The rich have dumb/lazy kids...and the poor/ave joe, bright and inspired but for many, one of the few things a parent can give their kids is (opportunity) the best education they can afford or find - the (employment desired measurable) outcomes still in the main depend on the iq, attitude, drive of the child but it's natural to want your kids to get a decent start in life whatever your circumstances. I'm another who moved to a grammer catchment in Essex, paid for supplementary tutoring to help them through 11+ and drove my kids to try and make the best of their abilities. All 3 have been/are at Uni. (Kent, Bath & Cambridge). Like it or not - better schools (even state funded ones) insist on performance driven achievement with high standards of disipline - simply leveling the schooling system doesnt solve social demographics or wealth - it crushes the natural human instinct to grow and learn. For me - the bottom of the system needs to aspire the standards at the top (not the other way). Independent fee paying schools aside, the entire point of Grammar Schools was fundamentally to pick from the “best of the bunch” who couldn’t afford fees. The issue is most of these schools themselves have become uber competitive, require extra tuition to even have a hope of passing the entrance exam and even then some get turned away. For a lot of people, the tuition isn’t practical or affordable and primary school supplementation for it either isn’t available or good enough. The result is a squeeze on grammar places biased towards those with means (often the means to pay fees) which restrict those actually more than intellectually capable of attending one. This isn’t a go at you btw or calling you some rich sod, you did right by your kids, I just think that particular system is fundamentally broken when so much comes down to stuff not on the national curriculum. (Particularly the reasoning parts of some 11 + exams which are very hard and imo not particularly relevant at such an age)
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Post by hammered on Sept 24, 2019 1:48:41 GMT
Independent fee paying schools aside, the entire point of Grammar Schools was fundamentally to pick from the “best of the bunch” who couldn’t afford fees. The issue is most of these schools themselves have become uber competitive, require extra tuition to even have a hope of passing the entrance exam and even then some get turned away. For a lot of people, the tuition isn’t practical or affordable and primary school supplementation for it either isn’t available or good enough. The result is a squeeze on grammar places biased towards those with means (often the means to pay fees) which restrict those actually more than intellectually capable of attending one. This isn’t a go at you btw or calling you some rich sod, you did right by your kids, I just think that particular system is fundamentally broken when so much comes down to stuff not on the national curriculum. (Particularly the reasoning parts of some 11 + exams which are very hard and imo not particularly relevant at such an age) I get what you say but disagree on outcome. BTW - went to a rough Comp in the 70's, left at 15, gave up driving a decent motor to fund my kids etc.. And based on what you say there seems a huge market for tutoring to meet the standards regular primarys can't/fail to acive as things stand. Fortunately, where I live Primarys are geared to pushing for excellence also and delivering grammar style expectation. Getting kids into Grammar schools gets higher demand, revenue and reputation. Even the bad eggs benefit from this type of schooling and dont get the grades of the brightest, but they have installed the same ethics and moral compass. Academys and former comprehensives in the area get the best of the rest with many tutored kids who pass 11+ but turn out not to have the other qualities to deliver in the long-term, getting replaced/swapped by the Grammars within the first year with excelling Academy kids, so a sort of balance exists even post 11+. I agree 11+ is tough - but it works. They also round here repeat the excercise at 6th form for A levels and getting into Oxbridge pushed. Maybe I'm luckier than most but made/worked my nuts for my luck etc.. The Academys (round here).. have also broadened their strengths to sports/skills/apprentice type learning so I honestly can't criticise the education system I've encountered. I can't speak for elsewhere. The Grammar system works - but it's wrong to think it's only available to the loaded. The problem imo lies with the lack of this type of opportunity (and support for it) nationwide and the dumbing down of standards in regular schools which drives this elitest narrative. We've also a generation of expectant spoilt millenials who expect without contribution neither financialy or intelectually - utopia for turning up. I'm glad I don't have young kids anymore.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 24, 2019 5:51:20 GMT
Independent fee paying schools aside, the entire point of Grammar Schools was fundamentally to pick from the “best of the bunch” who couldn’t afford fees. The issue is most of these schools themselves have become uber competitive, require extra tuition to even have a hope of passing the entrance exam and even then some get turned away. For a lot of people, the tuition isn’t practical or affordable and primary school supplementation for it either isn’t available or good enough. The result is a squeeze on grammar places biased towards those with means (often the means to pay fees) which restrict those actually more than intellectually capable of attending one. This isn’t a go at you btw or calling you some rich sod, you did right by your kids, I just think that particular system is fundamentally broken when so much comes down to stuff not on the national curriculum. (Particularly the reasoning parts of some 11 + exams which are very hard and imo not particularly relevant at such an age) I get what you say but disagree on outcome. BTW - went to a rough Comp in the 70's, left at 15, gave up driving a decent motor to fund my kids etc.. Are you Dagenham Dave...
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 24, 2019 8:15:45 GMT
Does it? how the fuck have you managed to wangle eugenics out of that sentence? I'm on about not giving the rich privileged access to better education just because they're rich. It's really not unrealistic, and it makes things slightly more fair than before. Simple. Raising standards and fairness is one of the arguments of eugenecists. What a ridulously, ludicrously massive leap you've made there.....wanting fairness and equality now means you're into eugenics. You may as well have just Godwin's law-ed it and be done with it fella. Really poor...in fact, worse than that. Really fucking pathetic, a complete false logic and completely childish just for a bit of oneupmanship on the Oatcake Sad!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 8:35:14 GMT
Simple. Raising standards and fairness is one of the arguments of eugenecists. What a ridulously, ludicrously massive leap you've made there.....wanting fairness and equality now means you're into eugenics. You may as well have just Godwin's law-ed it and be done with it fella. Really poor...in fact, worse than that. Really fucking pathetic, a complete false logic and completely childish just for a bit of oneupmanship on the Oatcake Sad!! The sad thing is, to some people (not partickpotter necessarily I might add) solving inequality is just too difficult, requires too much effort, they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Plus they lead a relatively comfortable lifestyle - it doesn't really affect them - so they come out with statements like "life is tough" or "there is no utopia" So policies like this one and others are mocked, when actually in the case of Finland there is clear and tangible evidence of it working. And their education system is the best in the world right now. We have in the main a bunch of inept politicians, and a tired and beaten electorate. Which doesn't bode well for the future of this country. But still I can afford to take my kids to Pizza Express every week and go to Costa Coffee every day at lunchtime for a chai latte so never mind.......
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 24, 2019 8:38:59 GMT
Independent fee paying schools aside, the entire point of Grammar Schools was fundamentally to pick from the “best of the bunch” who couldn’t afford fees. The issue is most of these schools themselves have become uber competitive, require extra tuition to even have a hope of passing the entrance exam and even then some get turned away. For a lot of people, the tuition isn’t practical or affordable and primary school supplementation for it either isn’t available or good enough. The result is a squeeze on grammar places biased towards those with means (often the means to pay fees) which restrict those actually more than intellectually capable of attending one. This isn’t a go at you btw or calling you some rich sod, you did right by your kids, I just think that particular system is fundamentally broken when so much comes down to stuff not on the national curriculum. (Particularly the reasoning parts of some 11 + exams which are very hard and imo not particularly relevant at such an age) I get what you say but disagree on outcome. BTW - went to a rough Comp in the 70's, left at 15, gave up driving a decent motor to fund my kids etc.. And based on what you say there seems a huge market for tutoring to meet the standards regular primarys can't/fail to acive as things stand. Fortunately, where I live Primarys are geared to pushing for excellence also and delivering grammar style expectation. Getting kids into Grammar schools gets higher demand, revenue and reputation. Even the bad eggs benefit from this type of schooling and dont get the grades of the brightest, but they have installed the same ethics and moral compass. Academys and former comprehensives in the area get the best of the rest with many tutored kids who pass 11+ but turn out not to have the other qualities to deliver in the long-term, getting replaced/swapped by the Grammars within the first year with excelling Academy kids, so a sort of balance exists even post 11+. I agree 11+ is tough - but it works. They also round here repeat the excercise at 6th form for A levels and getting into Oxbridge pushed. Maybe I'm luckier than most but made/worked my nuts for my luck etc.. The Academys (round here).. have also broadened their strengths to sports/skills/apprentice type learning so I honestly can't criticise the education system I've encountered. I can't speak for elsewhere. The Grammar system works - but it's wrong to think it's only available to the loaded. The problem imo lies with the lack of this type of opportunity (and support for it) nationwide and the dumbing down of standards in regular schools which drives this elitest narrative. We've also a generation of expectant spoilt millenials who expect without contribution neither financialy or intelectually - utopia for turning up. I'm glad I don't have young kids anymore. I don’t think it’s only available to the loaded, it’s just slanted far towards them, for example only 3% of Grammar School pupils nationwide are eligible for free school meals, whilst at the best Grammars up to 20% of the pupils went to a fee paying primary school. Of course there will be plenty of exceptions such as yourself in the remaining ~70% but to me that’s far too big of a shortfall when the average number of children on fee school meals is ~15%. There is also that old cliched North/South divide issue coming into play, that report I posted a few pages ago, kids from disadvantaged areas in London and the South are more likely to attain higher grades than there equally disadvantaged counterparts up North because of greater support lended to state schools by the government, education authorities and University Outreach programs which you allude to. I’d much sooner address that gap first, which is clearly capable of being remedied than abolish private schools outright for starters.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 8:59:38 GMT
Does it? how the fuck have you managed to wangle eugenics out of that sentence? I'm on about not giving the rich privileged access to better education just because they're rich. It's really not unrealistic, and it makes things slightly more fair than before. Simple. Raising standards and fairness is one of the arguments of eugenecists. Yep, therefore all people who want the world to be less unfair advocate eugenics. Definitely.
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Post by musik on Sept 24, 2019 9:11:56 GMT
Simple. Raising standards and fairness is one of the arguments of eugenecists. Yep, therefore all people who want the world to be less unfair advocate eugenics. Definitely. It reminds me of when I was a kid at school (I could have been 10 years perhaps). A very few of us were handpicked to undergo skull measures by a doctor in a study, since we had high points. I was extreme. Eugenics has been popular in Sweden.
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Post by partickpotter on Sept 24, 2019 9:18:46 GMT
Simple. Raising standards and fairness is one of the arguments of eugenecists. What a ridulously, ludicrously massive leap you've made there.....wanting fairness and equality now means you're into eugenics. You may as well have just Godwin's law-ed it and be done with it fella. Really poor...in fact, worse than that. Really fucking pathetic, a complete false logic and completely childish just for a bit of oneupmanship on the Oatcake Sad!! Guilty as charged.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 24, 2019 10:07:05 GMT
Yep, therefore all people who want the world to be less unfair advocate eugenics. Definitely. It reminds me of when I was a kid at school (I could have been 10 years perhaps). A very few of us were handpicked to undergo skull measures by a doctor in a study, since we had high points. I was extreme. Eugenics has been popular in Sweden. Well uncle adolf did use Swedish women for his arian race project. Are you one of his progeny Musik!?!
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Post by musik on Sept 25, 2019 8:30:10 GMT
It reminds me of when I was a kid at school (I could have been 10 years perhaps). A very few of us were handpicked to undergo skull measures by a doctor in a study, since we had high points. I was extreme. Eugenics has been popular in Sweden. Well uncle adolf did use Swedish women for his arian race project. Are you one of his progeny Musik!?! I was thinking of Rasbiologiska institutet (The Institute of Racial Biology) which every political party supported and voted for here in the 1920ies. It lasted for a few decades. Then in the sixties after it was closed, some of the research continued at Uppsala University in the sixties. It could have been a study from there I had to join, in the 70ies? The genetics research is still in focus there today. To your question. It's impossible. I'm an alien. We don't have anything in common.
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Post by sammys89 on Mar 9, 2020 11:18:11 GMT
No, we shouldn't get rid of private schools here. Most wealthy people have earned their wealth, and if they want to send their children to the best school they can afford that's their prerogative. It's not their fault so many state schools are of such a low standard. I think most privately educated kids seem to appreciate their education more, because they know it's paid for.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 11:25:13 GMT
No, we shouldn't get rid of private schools. Most wealthy people have earned their wealth, and if they want to send their children to the best school they can afford that's their prerogative. It's not their fault so many state schools are of such a low standard. I think most privately educated kids seem to appreciate their education more, because they know it's paid for.Based on what?
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 9, 2020 11:29:16 GMT
No, we shouldn't get rid of private schools. Most wealthy people have earned their wealth, and if they want to send their children to the best school they can afford that's their prerogative. It's not their fault so many state schools are of such a low standard. I think most privately educated kids seem to appreciate their education more, because they know it's paid for.Based on what? I guess their parents make it known to them & I suppose the teachers also...
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Mar 9, 2020 11:53:39 GMT
No, we shouldn't get rid of private schools. Most wealthy people have earned their wealth, and if they want to send their children to the best school they can afford that's their prerogative. It's not their fault so many state schools are of such a low standard. I think most privately educated kids seem to appreciate their education more, because they know it's paid for. There are so many holes in your argument that it probably needs a whole new thread to debate.
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Post by franklin66 on Mar 9, 2020 11:57:06 GMT
Aspiration is the problem we should make sure people know their place.
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 9, 2020 12:07:28 GMT
Aspiration is the problem we should make sure people know their place. Isn't that the truth, if grammar schools were abolished do you think the parents of these kids would just take pot luck on the state school they get into or would they move heaven and earth to get into a top ranked school, move house, volunteer, offer donations etc etc and they then push out those children of less well off parents.
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Post by lordb on Mar 9, 2020 12:12:31 GMT
No, we shouldn't get rid of private schools. Most wealthy people have earned their wealth, and if they want to send their children to the best school they can afford that's their prerogative. It's not their fault so many state schools are of such a low standard. I think most privately educated kids seem to appreciate their education more, because they know it's paid for.Based on what? it's an astonishing statement in my experience most privately educated kids think they are gods gift & work significantly less harder than everyone else
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 9, 2020 12:19:18 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 9, 2020 12:24:00 GMT
it's an astonishing statement in my experience most privately educated kids think they are gods gift & work significantly less harder than everyone else I agree. I had an excellent education at Wolstanton Grammar School, but my real education was working in holidays, week ends etc. doing chores for pocket money, working in a bakery, on the bread vans as a bread boy, serving at a petrol station, working in a pot bank one summer, etc.
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Post by franklin66 on Mar 9, 2020 12:26:27 GMT
I don't understand the philosophy imho all it does is drive down ambitions and reduces drive to succeed. Take away hope and dreams at your peril.
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Post by yeokel on Mar 9, 2020 12:46:00 GMT
it's an astonishing statement in my experience most privately educated kids think they are gods gift & work significantly less harder than everyone else I agree. I had an excellent education at Wolstanton Grammar School, but my real education was working in holidays, week ends etc. doing chores for pocket money, working in a bakery, on the bread vans as a bread boy, serving at a petrol station, working in a pot bank one summer, etc. I agree with much of what you've said above. I had a better education than your goodself having been fortunate enough to attend Newcastle High School but, like you, had weekend jobs, evening jobs etc which certainly made me appreciate the value of money. A mate and I set up our own car-washing round and used to receive so many recommendations from our customers that we ended up 'employing' a couple of other kids to help us out. Hard work did mean loads of spare pocket money which, in the main, meant that at 13 or 14 years of age we were able to be smoking little Tom Thumb cigars when we were out, instead of having to steal ciggies from our dads packets
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 14:07:06 GMT
I don't understand the philosophy imho all it does is drive down ambitions and reduces drive to succeed. Take away hope and dreams at your peril. How come in Finland it's done neither of those things then?
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Post by franklin66 on Mar 9, 2020 14:11:13 GMT
I don't understand the philosophy imho all it does is drive down ambitions and reduces drive to succeed. Take away hope and dreams at your peril. How come in Finland it's done neither of those things then? That's why I said it was an opinion not a fact.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 14:16:27 GMT
How come in Finland it's done neither of those things then? That's why I said it was an opinion not a fact. Of course it's your opinion. But usually when someone gives an opinion another person replies with a counter point other wise it would just be a few dozen posters on here making random statements with no right of reply......
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Post by franklin66 on Mar 9, 2020 14:21:09 GMT
That's why I said it was an opinion not a fact. Of course it's your opinion. But usually when someone gives an opinion another person replies with a counter point other wise it would just be a few dozen posters on here making random statements with no right of reply...... No problem but you replied with your opinion you've not shown me any evidence to counter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 15:09:56 GMT
Of course it's your opinion. But usually when someone gives an opinion another person replies with a counter point other wise it would just be a few dozen posters on here making random statements with no right of reply...... No problem but you replied with your opinion you've not shown me any evidence to counter. Finland has the worlds best educational system, they’re raising standard for everyone not just a small percentage...
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Post by franklin66 on Mar 9, 2020 15:16:02 GMT
No problem but you replied with your opinion you've not shown me any evidence to counter. Finland has the worlds best educational system, they’re raising standard for everyone not just a small percentage... There are stark differences though most have fewer than 100 children and although funded by the government there are independent/ private schools.
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