|
Post by essexstokey on Nov 29, 2019 12:35:45 GMT
The Tories. I’ve just posted a number of links above which have the information as to how the Tories have been worse for the economy. I don’t expect to change your mind but it’s worth reading them. I'll admit to not being an academic or economic guru such as yourself, but I think I'm intelligent enough to recognise that if you spend as much money as Labour would like to, there is trouble ahead. As you say, I'm not going to change my mind on that no matter how many experts such as yourself try to persuade me otherwise. the best thing for you to look up on the net is any article on economic multipliers linkand investment in infrastructure as a way to grow an economy ive included a none poltical explanation above
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Nov 29, 2019 12:50:10 GMT
I'll admit to not being an academic or economic guru such as yourself, but I think I'm intelligent enough to recognise that if you spend as much money as Labour would like to, there is trouble ahead. As you say, I'm not going to change my mind on that no matter how many experts such as yourself try to persuade me otherwise. That's the whole point though its not as simple as not spending is better and what those articles show is the Conservatives had to admit that austerity has not worked and actually the economy would have been better if they had not implemented their policies. Although the deficit has been reduced it's not been reduced by as much as it would have been if they had spent more. Concentrating solely on the deficit figure is misleading and what is doesn't show is that for example the effects of austerity suppressed the level of GDP by almost £100 billion. In fact households have suffered because the impact of the economy stalling has meant wages have not increased therefore the research shows that is has subdued the economy by £3600 per household. You are paying for austerity. We all are. The country is not far off a recession. It has not worked. This article explains it much better than me. neweconomics.org/2019/02/austerity-is-subduing-uk-economy-by-more-than-3-600-per-household-this-yearI don’t dispute that “austerity hasn’t worked”. I might dispute some of the figures but, as a principal, I’m happy to accept it hasn’t worked and has been damaging. But, the election is not about what I or you wish had happened in the past, it is about what we would like to see happen (or what we would like to avoid happening) in the future. I, for one, wish to avoid handing power to a group of hard left wingers who would economically bankrupt the country not only by attempting to implement grossly unrealistic spending plans, but by also tilting the balance of power in favour of Trades Unions and their left-wing leaders. Note, I do not say ‘workers’ or ‘working people’, I say left-wing union leaders who have their own political agendas which are rarely connected to the rights of your average, every day factory or office worker.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 29, 2019 12:54:06 GMT
They're certainly all in it together aren't they. What a pathetic example of the bias towards the privileged few in this country than that. Both a pair of entitled twats.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 12:57:15 GMT
That's the whole point though its not as simple as not spending is better and what those articles show is the Conservatives had to admit that austerity has not worked and actually the economy would have been better if they had not implemented their policies. Although the deficit has been reduced it's not been reduced by as much as it would have been if they had spent more. Concentrating solely on the deficit figure is misleading and what is doesn't show is that for example the effects of austerity suppressed the level of GDP by almost £100 billion. In fact households have suffered because the impact of the economy stalling has meant wages have not increased therefore the research shows that is has subdued the economy by £3600 per household. You are paying for austerity. We all are. The country is not far off a recession. It has not worked. This article explains it much better than me. neweconomics.org/2019/02/austerity-is-subduing-uk-economy-by-more-than-3-600-per-household-this-yearI don’t dispute that “austerity hasn’t worked”. I might dispute some of the figures but, as a principal, I’m happy to accept it hasn’t worked and has been damaging. But, the election is not about what I or you wish had happened in the past, it is about what we would like to see happen (or what we would like to avoid happening) in the future. I, for one, wish to avoid handing power to a group of hard left wingers who would economically bankrupt the country not only by attempting to implement grossly unrealistic spending plans, but by also tilting the balance of power in favour of Trades Unions and their left-wing leaders. Note, I do not say ‘workers’ or ‘working people’, I say left-wing union leaders who have their own political agendas which are rarely connected to the rights of your average, every day factory or office worker. You keep saying it would be bad for the economy when everything I've tried to present you with says it would be better for the economy. The Conservatives have been awful for the economy and as I said we are practically on the bring of a recession. The figures in that article are from the Conservative governments OWN research.
|
|
|
Post by yeokel on Nov 29, 2019 13:07:47 GMT
I'll admit to not being an academic or economic guru such as yourself, but I think I'm intelligent enough to recognise that if you spend as much money as Labour would like to, there is trouble ahead. As you say, I'm not going to change my mind on that no matter how many experts such as yourself try to persuade me otherwise. the best thing for you to look up on the net is any article on economic multipliers linkand investment in infrastructure as a way to grow an economy ive included a none poltical explanation above I listened to the link you provided Essex. The problem with it, as I see it, is that it’s all very well predicting that things like extra government investment leads to more work for everybody which leads to more money for everybody which leads to more spending and then on to more demand if you are working in some kind of closed economy. The reality of this world would be that more, for example, government investment would lead to more orders to foreign owned suppliers of such things as steel, pharmaceuticals, electronics products and the like which may well benefit those countries and boost their economies, but it can have precisely the opposite effect here. Say, for example, we all decide that we are so much better off that each of us can afford a new car. Is it British car factories which will benefit or is it, in the main, German and French companies and workers who will benefit? The same argument works for virtually every consumer product leading to a massive drain of money from the UK. We would then have to print more money, which leads to a devaluation of our currency which makes all these imports dearer which, in turn, leads to even greater outward flows of money, and so on and so on. As I’ve said previously, I’m no economic expert like some on here but that sounds like an unsustainable model to me.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 29, 2019 13:10:12 GMT
Labour has lost touch with the working class, especially the lowest paid. That may be the case, the outcome will be that the Tories will stamp the lowest paid into an underclass, where foodbanks are part of the welfare state. The workhouse model. The Victorian ghost will be coming in his long johns. Not literally, I hope! 😁
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Nov 29, 2019 13:11:49 GMT
I'm a free market guy and i'll be voting tory but i don't believe the tories are real free marketeers, they're crony corporatists but i'll take their brand of statism over labours, which is, imo, reckless and will eventually be terrible not only for the working classes but for everyone. I don't believe corbyn would implement marxist policies, i just think he'd put the state on steroids and we'd turn into the moribund country we were in the late 70s.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 13:16:32 GMT
I'm a free market guy and i'll be voting tory but i don't believe the tories are real free marketeers, they're crony corporatists but i'll take their brand of statism over labours, which is, imo, reckless and will eventually be terrible not only for the working classes but for everyone. I don't believe corbyn would implement marxist policies, i just think he'd put the state on steroids and we'd turn into the moribund country we were in the late 70s. The spending is far less than most other European countries including France on Germany. You don't even seem to like the Tories and seem to fully understand they just want to make the rich richer and as you say this isn't a Marxist manifesto. It's literally bringing things inline with other European countries, trying to reverse the effects of austerity on the economy and possibly preventing the recession inevitable recession which seem we heading towards whilst protecting public services and ensuring your taxpayer money goes back into public services and is not paid over to private companies who make huge profits for them. When they bloody hell should Richard Branson be making profits in healthcare that's effectively your money going into his pocket. Does he need another Island? The fact that this even seems "radical" shows just how far this country has fallen.
|
|
|
Post by essexstokey on Nov 29, 2019 13:44:25 GMT
I don’t dispute that “austerity hasn’t worked”. I might dispute some of the figures but, as a principal, I’m happy to accept it hasn’t worked and has been damaging. But, the election is not about what I or you wish had happened in the past, it is about what we would like to see happen (or what we would like to avoid happening) in the future. I, for one, wish to avoid handing power to a group of hard left wingers who would economically bankrupt the country not only by attempting to implement grossly unrealistic spending plans, but by also tilting the balance of power in favour of Trades Unions and their left-wing leaders. Note, I do not say ‘workers’ or ‘working people’, I say left-wing union leaders who have their own political agendas which are rarely connected to the rights of your average, every day factory or office worker. You keep saying it would be bad for the economy when everything I've tried to present you with says it would be better for the economy. The Conservatives have been awful for the economy and as I said we are practically on the bring of a recession. The figures in that article are from the Conservative governments OWN research. the last 2 months have seen a shrinkage of growth it is only because the month before that was positive that the 1/4 average was also positive so the hedlines should and are we are for the last two months in recession
|
|
|
Post by Eggybread on Nov 29, 2019 13:47:40 GMT
I'm a free market guy and i'll be voting tory but i don't believe the tories are real free marketeers, they're crony corporatists but i'll take their brand of statism over labours, which is, imo, reckless and will eventually be terrible not only for the working classes but for everyone. I don't believe corbyn would implement marxist policies, i just think he'd put the state on steroids and we'd turn into the moribund country we were in the late 70s. "will eventually be terrible not only for the working classes" Its tickety boo now isnt it ffs.And yeah yeah it will all get worse under Corbyn , we have heard it all before. If it gets any worse SOT will be back in the stone age the people are absolute desperate.I went for the first time in many years to Hanley market on Monday and it was so depressing it almost makes you weep, the people looked absolutely downtrodden and as though all the life had been sucked out of them .Really sad.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Nov 29, 2019 13:51:18 GMT
They're certainly all in it together aren't they. What a pathetic example of the bias towards the privileged few in this country than that. Both a pair of entitled twats. What the fook is this on about, what secret signal
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 13:54:17 GMT
You keep saying it would be bad for the economy when everything I've tried to present you with says it would be better for the economy. The Conservatives have been awful for the economy and as I said we are practically on the bring of a recession. The figures in that article are from the Conservative governments OWN research. the last 2 months have seen a shrinkage of growth it is only because the month before that was positive that the 1/4 average was also positive so the hedlines should and are we are for the last two months in recession Indeed. It seems like its just a matter of time until it's 'officially' confirmed but won't be officially until its been going on for six months.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 29, 2019 14:08:36 GMT
In addition to abolishing the H of L ... The Brexit Party supports policies aimed at regional regeneration, supporting key sectors of the economy and targeted investments in the young, the High Street and families. We pledge to: • Raise £200bn by: – Scrapping HS2 – Keeping the £13bn annual EU contribution – Recovering our £7bn from the EIB – Redirecting 50% of the foreign aid budget (£40bn over a five-year term). ...... What's more I would trust Farage and the BREXIT party to deliver what they say more than the 3 main parties. I believe that more of the Brexit party candidates have had careers in business, " can-do" people rather than inward looking career politicians who can talk a good game, and like preserving their own self importance by ' getting the other side". The decision to step down was to some extent politically forced upon the party...at this stage it seems to have focused Labour's mind and to some extent sidelined their campaign in my opinion.... aren't there rumours that Labour are reconsidering their approach in their OWN traditional heartlands....as far as conviction politics are concerned they certainly have lost the plot. The only thing the Brexit party can achieve at this election is to help make Brexit not happen. Every vote they get works against the Tories meaning a vote for Brexit increases the possibility of a Labour minority Government and a second referendum which would offer a choice between Brino (most likely staying in the single market and retaining freedom of movement) and stopping Brexit altogether. Something that is worth spending a few moments thinking about. I'd like to add Partick....in these uncertain times( admittedly a convoluted and highly hypothetical risky argument..... But in the medium term a Corbyn government may not be such a bad thing!!¡!! ridiculous as it may seem.... perhaps things have to get even worse to get better. A Corbyn government may lead to disruption, disaster disillusionment and chaos, possibly the break up of the UK, possibly trying to organise and offer a Hard Remain v Soft Remain choice at a referendum may be the last straw .,..maybe it could lead to electoral reform.....who knows..... I'm not saying that I would welcome it , but it might focus minds on the ineffectiveness and I would say inbred deceit and corruption of our current system.
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Nov 29, 2019 15:17:20 GMT
I'm a free market guy and i'll be voting tory but i don't believe the tories are real free marketeers, they're crony corporatists but i'll take their brand of statism over labours, which is, imo, reckless and will eventually be terrible not only for the working classes but for everyone. I don't believe corbyn would implement marxist policies, i just think he'd put the state on steroids and we'd turn into the moribund country we were in the late 70s. The spending is far less than most other European countries including France on Germany. You don't even seem to like the Tories and seem to fully understand they just want to make the rich richer and as you say this isn't a Marxist manifesto. It's literally bringing things inline with other European countries, trying to reverse the effects of austerity on the economy and possibly preventing the recession inevitable recession which seem we heading towards whilst protecting public services and ensuring your taxpayer money goes back into public services and is not paid over to private companies who make huge profits for them. When they bloody hell should Richard Branson be making profits in healthcare that's effectively your money going into his pocket. Does he need another Island? The fact that this even seems "radical" shows just how far this country has fallen. Most european nations, including germany, are close to recession so i wouldn't point to them as good examples of higher government spending/taxation being a good thing. When we leave the EU we need to have a competitive edge on those european countries, its not a good time to be putting up taxes. Maybe healthcare is the one place you want profit, open it up to competition and encourage massive investment and thus advancement, obviously someone is going to point to the American system to discredit that idea but over half of total healthcare costs are already covered by the state in the US via medicare and medicaid, it's not a totally free market system. Free markets with healthy competition helps to push prices down and quality up, why cant this mechanism work in healthcare ?
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Nov 29, 2019 15:23:51 GMT
You keep saying it would be bad for the economy when everything I've tried to present you with says it would be better for the economy. The Conservatives have been awful for the economy and as I said we are practically on the bring of a recession. The figures in that article are from the Conservative governments OWN research. the last 2 months have seen a shrinkage of growth it is only because the month before that was positive that the 1/4 average was also positive so the hedlines should and are we are for the last two months in recession A shrinkage of growth doesnt mean recession, two quarters of negative growth does. Ive said before that companies aren't investing whilst the Brexit and Parliament shit was going on, once its sorted then things should start to get bsck to normal
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 15:27:10 GMT
The spending is far less than most other European countries including France on Germany. You don't even seem to like the Tories and seem to fully understand they just want to make the rich richer and as you say this isn't a Marxist manifesto. It's literally bringing things inline with other European countries, trying to reverse the effects of austerity on the economy and possibly preventing the recession inevitable recession which seem we heading towards whilst protecting public services and ensuring your taxpayer money goes back into public services and is not paid over to private companies who make huge profits for them. When they bloody hell should Richard Branson be making profits in healthcare that's effectively your money going into his pocket. Does he need another Island? The fact that this even seems "radical" shows just how far this country has fallen. Most european nations, including germany, are close to recession so i wouldn't point to them as good examples of higher government spending/taxation being a good thing. When we leave the EU we need to have a competitive edge on those european countries, its not a good time to be putting up taxes. Maybe healthcare is the one place you want profit, open it up to competition and encourage massive investment and thus advancement, obviously someone is going to point to the American system to discredit that idea but over half of total healthcare costs are already covered by the state in the US via medicare and medicaid, it's not a totally free market system. Free markets with healthy competition helps to push prices down and quality up, why cant this mechanism work in healthcare ? Not when the industries are owned by monopolies. As you point the US system their system their system is more inefficient and most costly than a free one would be. This video is excellent. Note in particular the deception of facts and figures to keep it private and the US public being sold complete lies. Unfortunately private companies do not mean efficiency or better services nor are they less costly and considering with healthcare it’s not bob down the road starting a business they are all established business it’s just more money going into the same hands. As you seen with the big care home providers that were bought privately, saddled with debt, their land sold and then lease back at higher prices all whilst shareholders were extracting huge profits, it quite dangerous. Private companies have already had to have NHS contracts taken back under control. Public health should not be about profit and you’re opening a huge can of worms when doing so. We’ve had the experiment here and it’s failed. It’s failing people in the US. Unnecessary testing, unnecessary procedures and not a better service. Additionally a recession is where the economy shrinks. It’s not because a government has a debt. Hence why a large numbers are advocating an increase in government spending and pointing to austerity for worsening the economy.
|
|
|
Post by GrahamHyde on Nov 29, 2019 15:34:36 GMT
According to YouGov MRP, Stoke-on-Trent North will be turning Conservative while Stoke-on-Trent Central is a toss-up.
Would that be unprecedented?
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Nov 29, 2019 15:50:16 GMT
They're certainly all in it together aren't they. What a pathetic example of the bias towards the privileged few in this country than that. Both a pair of entitled twats. What the fook is this on about, what secret signal I am very much a on the fencer, or more accurately not self declaring where I stand but IF this video is true and not False News it is quite embarrassing. Watch it again.
|
|
|
Post by GrahamHyde on Nov 29, 2019 15:51:19 GMT
Really hope historical Labour voters have a change of heart in the voting booth in Stoke constituencies.
One of the main things that makes me proud to come from Stoke is its honest, working class roots - and now they're on the verge of electing a Tory MP.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Nov 29, 2019 15:52:12 GMT
According to YouGov MRP, Stoke-on-Trent North will be turning Conservative while Stoke-on-Trent Central is a toss-up. Would that be unprecedented? Yes, Tories got in Stoke South last time for the first time in 80 years. Would be nice on one hand to see Ruth Smeeth out, but on the other hand Jez would probably be happy as she's Jewish
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Nov 29, 2019 15:56:09 GMT
What the fook is this on about, what secret signal I am very much a on the fencer, or more accurately not self declaring where I stand but IF this video is true and not False News it is quite embarrassing. Watch it again. All's I see is him look to his left away from the interviewer, towards a door or something as if someone is coming in.
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Nov 29, 2019 16:02:44 GMT
Boris gives the classic “Cut” gesture (ie knife across the throat), waffles for a few seconds more then the interviewer changes the subject as instructed and says “Let’s move onto other matters”.
Not a ANDREW NEIL practice run. 🤨
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 29, 2019 16:21:21 GMT
According to YouGov MRP, Stoke-on-Trent North will be turning Conservative while Stoke-on-Trent Central is a toss-up. Would that be unprecedented? I would think so(without Googling it).
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Nov 29, 2019 16:31:28 GMT
They're certainly all in it together aren't they. What a pathetic example of the bias towards the privileged few in this country than that. Both a pair of entitled twats. What the fook is this on about, what secret signal proof of how easy it is to take something out of context.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 16:37:32 GMT
What the fook is this on about, what secret signal proof of how easy it is to take something out of context. Lovely that he's supposed to speaking about an important subject and busy having a joke with his mate. Not sure it makes it any better. Just shows seriously he's really taking all this.
|
|
|
Post by serpico on Nov 29, 2019 16:43:51 GMT
proof of how easy it is to take something out of context. Lovely that he's supposed to speaking about an important subject and busy having a joke with his mate. Not sure it makes it any better. Just shows seriously he's really taking all this. That maybe, but there will now be lots of people who think Johnson was asking the interviewer to cut his line of questioning and move on, which he wasn't.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 16:54:10 GMT
Lovely that he's supposed to speaking about an important subject and busy having a joke with his mate. Not sure it makes it any better. Just shows seriously he's really taking all this. That maybe, but there will now be lots of people who think Johnson was asking the interviewer to cut his line of questioning and move on, which he wasn't. Unfortunately I think people don’t believe what he says anyway. That’s how he wants to explain it - it may be true it may be not. If he’s not controlling what he talks about he can go face Andrew Neil. Whatever way you look at it it’s a joke. I doubt it will be widely shared and reported on though.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 29, 2019 17:29:42 GMT
Really hope historical Labour voters have a change of heart in the voting booth in Stoke constituencies. One of the main things that makes me proud to come from Stoke is its honest, working class roots - and now they're on the verge of electing a Tory MP. They wouldn't have been if Labour had genuinely respected the referendum result. Labour would absolutely walk it it in Stoke if they had.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Nov 29, 2019 17:49:44 GMT
The only thing the Brexit party can achieve at this election is to help make Brexit not happen. Every vote they get works against the Tories meaning a vote for Brexit increases the possibility of a Labour minority Government and a second referendum which would offer a choice between Brino (most likely staying in the single market and retaining freedom of movement) and stopping Brexit altogether. Something that is worth spending a few moments thinking about. I'd like to add Partick....in these uncertain times( admittedly a convoluted and highly hypothetical risky argument..... But in the medium term a Corbyn government may not be such a bad thing!!¡!! ridiculous as it may seem.... perhaps things have to get even worse to get better. A Corbyn government may lead to disruption, disaster disillusionment and chaos, possibly the break up of the UK, possibly trying to organise and offer a Hard Remain v Soft Remain choice at a referendum may be the last straw .,..maybe it could lead to electoral reform.....who knows..... I'm not saying that I would welcome it , but it might focus minds on the ineffectiveness and I would say inbred deceit and corruption of our current system. If Corbyn gets in there will be a second referendum where the options are Brino and Remain. In that situation, I suspect many Brexiteers will either not vote or spoil their ballot papers in protest. Remain will win. And it will be a very, very long time (if ever) before another referendum is offered. That is what Brexit voters need to consider. In the words of the old song... It’s now or never.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 29, 2019 18:00:10 GMT
I'd like to add Partick....in these uncertain times( admittedly a convoluted and highly hypothetical risky argument..... But in the medium term a Corbyn government may not be such a bad thing!!¡!! ridiculous as it may seem.... perhaps things have to get even worse to get better. A Corbyn government may lead to disruption, disaster disillusionment and chaos, possibly the break up of the UK, possibly trying to organise and offer a Hard Remain v Soft Remain choice at a referendum may be the last straw .,..maybe it could lead to electoral reform.....who knows..... I'm not saying that I would welcome it , but it might focus minds on the ineffectiveness and I would say inbred deceit and corruption of our current system. If Corbyn gets in there will be a second referendum where the options are Brino and Remain. In that situation, I suspect many Brexiteers will either not vote or spoil their ballot papers in protest. Remain will win. And it will be a very, very long time (if ever) before another referendum is offered. That is what Brexit voters need to consider. In the words of the old song... It’s now or never. Possible....but it may be that Labour's attempt at government fails so abysmally as could his attempt to organise and see through a referendum that we don't get that far.......a further election could easily transpire
|
|