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Post by PotterLog on Apr 10, 2019 22:44:07 GMT
That makes no sense. A player with the ball at his feet 12 yards from goal is obviously in a *clearer* goal scoring position than one who is 30 yards out, regardless of who else is around him. What do you think James would have done if BMI hadn't used his big fat ass to stop him? A picnic on the pitch? No. He would have continued forward and probably scored within three-four seconds. No Stoke player would have been closer to James than 4 meters behind IF ... BMI hadn't done what he did. Imagine a situation where there is a corner to a chasing team and the opponents are down in the penalty box as well. Apart from one single player. And he starts his run on the right side of the line when the long ball comes. He could be 50 meters away from the keeper and the goal line when someone catches and tackles him to the ground from behind. It's still a red card. Last man. “Last man” isn’t mentioned anywhere in the rule. To be honest I’m not even sure what the guidance is on distance from goal, I’m just taking issue with your claim that having the ball 30, or 50 yards from goal is the same as having a penalty. You still have work to do. The further you are away, the more work you have to do, in turn affecting the “clearness” of the GSO.
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Post by tomcmod on Apr 10, 2019 22:45:59 GMT
Isn't the issue the fact if it's not a red then it would have been a yellow, the FA don't swap bookings. Don't they just take reds away if it simply wasn't a card at all?
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MooG
Youth Player
Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.
Posts: 493
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Post by MooG on Apr 10, 2019 23:10:40 GMT
Can't see any point in appealing really.
I thought it was a touch harsh; but it's a judgement call, not an obvious mistake - so no way they're going to overturn it.
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Post by kelw on Apr 11, 2019 2:51:34 GMT
Definite grounds for appeal. Had the defender knocked the beyond Bruno towards goal then that would have been a clear goal-scoring opportunity and a definite red card. Instead, he knocked it to the side, where Clucas was getting round on the cover and would have had a chance to make a challenge. I thought at the time Free Kick and yellow card and I’m still sure that should have been the case. yeah, we had one of these against someone the exact same situation I think they fouled ince and only a yellow was given, but Cus it’s stoke it probably won’t gwt overturned Irrelevant if Stoke or any other team. Doesn't come into it. Even the Swans commentator was surprised at the red and he was obviously biased to his own team and nothing wrong with that, we all are. Never a red for me
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Post by musik on Apr 11, 2019 6:39:36 GMT
What do you think James would have done if BMI hadn't used his big fat ass to stop him? A picnic on the pitch? No. He would have continued forward and probably scored within three-four seconds. No Stoke player would have been closer to James than 4 meters behind IF ... BMI hadn't done what he did. Imagine a situation where there is a corner to a chasing team and the opponents are down in the penalty box as well. Apart from one single player. And he starts his run on the right side of the line when the long ball comes. He could be 50 meters away from the keeper and the goal line when someone catches and tackles him to the ground from behind. It's still a red card. Last man. “Last man” isn’t mentioned anywhere in the rule. To be honest I’m not even sure what the guidance is on distance from goal, I’m just taking issue with your claim that having the ball 30, or 50 yards from goal is the same as having a penalty. You still have work to do. The further you are away, the more work you have to do, in turn affecting the “clearness” of the GSO. I understand what you mean, PotterLog. But just a thought, and I think it's not an unlikely one: don't you think the ref's decision was affected by the fact it was James who could have the gso, even if he was outside the penalty box when it happened. If it had been our Williams I'm not sure the ref had seen it the same way. "Last man isn't mentioned anywhere in the rule." Really? That's kind of surprising, because every time when there is an important game on tv here and they have invited the coach of Iceland, Norway, Sweden or whatever, or from one of the top teams in Sweden, all they mention is "he was the last man, that's it then". Also the commentators both in Sweden and England mentioned, was he the last man or not? If it hasn't got anything to do with if a defending player was the last man or not, you can wonder, what is the rule about anyway? If there's a situation with Ince having a chance to shoot on goal from just outside and to the right of the penalty box and with two Rotherham defenders plus Vokes inside it but to the left, when Ince is brought down. Why would this just give us a free kick, possibly a yellow, and not always a red? I mean, what is a "goal scoring opportunity"? If it's up to the referee to decide subjectively, the rule is far too vague. In practice (if it's not really in print?!?) it's about "the last man defending". It must be.
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Post by Frogger Theft Auto on Apr 11, 2019 6:53:34 GMT
That makes no sense. A player with the ball at his feet 12 yards from goal is obviously in a *clearer* goal scoring position than one who is 30 yards out, regardless of who else is around him. What do you think James would have done if BMI hadn't used his big fat ass to stop him? A picnic on the pitch? No. He would have continued forward and probably scored within three-four seconds. No Stoke player would have been closer to James than 4 meters behind IF ... BMI hadn't done what he did. Imagine a situation where there is a corner to a chasing team and the opponents are down in the penalty box as well. Apart from one single player. And he starts his run on the right side of the line when the long ball comes. He could be 50 meters away from the keeper and the goal line when someone catches and tackles him to the ground from behind. It's still a red card. Last man. It’s been said a few times in this thread, including the one you originally quoted to say ‘so what?’ about him being a good distance from goal but James cuts inside, knocking the ball behind him and away from goal, the Stoke players are running directly to goal. So the answer to the question of what I think James would have done if BMI’s fat arse hadn’t stopped him, is cut inside, so running away from goal to beat BMI (while Clucas is already in full pelt), and then before he had chance to start from scratch to run forwards with the ball, Clucas catches him. And to answer the original ‘so what?’ one about distance to goal being taken into account. An attacker dribbling a ball is slower than a player sprinting without one, so if they’re quite far out, with only a 5 yard head start on a defender, and they’re not even running forwards yet, while the defenders are sprinting towards them, then they’re getting caught. Shit decision.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2019 6:57:20 GMT
“Last man” isn’t mentioned anywhere in the rule. To be honest I’m not even sure what the guidance is on distance from goal, I’m just taking issue with your claim that having the ball 30, or 50 yards from goal is the same as having a penalty. You still have work to do. The further you are away, the more work you have to do, in turn affecting the “clearness” of the GSO. I understand what you mean, PotterLog. But just a thought, and I think it's not an unlikely one: don't you think the ref's decision was affected by the fact it was James who could have the gso, even if he was outside the penalty box when it happened. If it had been our Williams I'm not sure the ref had seen it the same way. "Last man isn't mentioned anywhere in the rule." Really? That's kind of surprising, because every time when there is an important game on tv here and they have invited the coach of Iceland, Norway, Sweden or whatever, or from one of the top teams in Sweden, all they mention is "he was the last man, that's it then". Also the commentators both in Sweden and England mentioned, was he the last man or not? If it hasn't got anything to do with if a defending player was the last man or not, you can wonder, what is the rule about anyway? If there's a situation with Ince having a chance to shoot on goal from just outside and to the right of the penalty box and with two Rotherham defenders plus Vokes inside it but to the left, when Ince is brought down. Why would this just give us a free kick, possibly a yellow, and not always a red? I mean, what is a "goal scoring opportunity"? If it's up to the referee to decide subjectively, the rule is far too vague. In practice (if it's not really in print?!?) it's about "the last man defending". It must be. Yeah ‘last man’ isn’t actually a thing in the laws of the game.
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Post by Gods on Apr 11, 2019 7:23:49 GMT
I don't think an appeal will fly crazy though the decision was.
The committee will see themselves as protectors of a mercurial young genius hacked down by a carthorse of a championship defender!
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Post by musik on Apr 11, 2019 7:25:53 GMT
I understand what you mean, PotterLog. But just a thought, and I think it's not an unlikely one: don't you think the ref's decision was affected by the fact it was James who could have the gso, even if he was outside the penalty box when it happened. If it had been our Williams I'm not sure the ref had seen it the same way. "Last man isn't mentioned anywhere in the rule." Really? That's kind of surprising, because every time when there is an important game on tv here and they have invited the coach of Iceland, Norway, Sweden or whatever, or from one of the top teams in Sweden, all they mention is "he was the last man, that's it then". Also the commentators both in Sweden and England mentioned, was he the last man or not? If it hasn't got anything to do with if a defending player was the last man or not, you can wonder, what is the rule about anyway? If there's a situation with Ince having a chance to shoot on goal from just outside and to the right of the penalty box and with two Rotherham defenders plus Vokes inside it but to the left, when Ince is brought down. Why would this just give us a free kick, possibly a yellow, and not always a red? I mean, what is a "goal scoring opportunity"? If it's up to the referee to decide subjectively, the rule is far too vague. In practice (if it's not really in print?!?) it's about "the last man defending". It must be. Yeah ‘last man’ isn’t actually a thing in the laws of the game. So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It was just about a free kick, if you go by how dangerous the tackle was.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2019 7:28:40 GMT
Yeah ‘last man’ isn’t actually a thing in the laws of the game. So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It has to be a 'clear goalscoring opportunity' I think.
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Post by musik on Apr 11, 2019 7:36:33 GMT
So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It has to be a 'clear goalscoring opportunity' I think. And to me it definitely was. I've seen it ten times now, and if BMI hadn't stopped James like that he would have been 4 meters ahead of Clucas or anyone else to score. My instant reaction was "what is BMI doing? It must be a red!" It still is. But let's move on. Rotherham at home. Tricky. They lost after being 1-0 up, and I guess they will defend all day to get a 0-0 result.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 11, 2019 8:48:04 GMT
I'm not over fussed to be perfectly honest. I don't ever want to see Indi playing left back again. He is a centre half or nothing (unless it's a dire emergency). As the manager appears to have the hots for Clucas and will play him no matter what, our lack of any left back options means he will have to play him in the only position I think he's looked halfway decent - left back. Two problems solved. It's also a great opportunity to see what Collins is made of and from the 25 minutes the other night I'm quite hopeful. Although I suspect a half fit Ryan will declare himself fit and lumber around and prove he quite clearly isn't, as is his way. The manager should rest him and give Collins a go. He won't.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Apr 11, 2019 8:59:19 GMT
So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It has to be a 'clear goalscoring opportunity' I think. So everytime someone stops someone getting to the ball from a corner is an obvious 'clear goalscoring opportunity'?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2019 9:37:45 GMT
It has to be a 'clear goalscoring opportunity' I think. So everytime someone stops someone getting to the ball from a corner is an obvious 'clear goalscoring opportunity'? Would depend on the situation as far as a professional foul is concerned I’d have thought. Should certainly be a penalty though if it’s done illegally.
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Post by PotterLog on Apr 11, 2019 14:10:47 GMT
Yeah ‘last man’ isn’t actually a thing in the laws of the game. So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It was just about a free kick, if you go by how dangerous the tackle was. To answer your earlier point, there are loads of terms in common usage among commentators and the public that aren’t actually part of the laws of the game - “he got the ball”, “last man”, “studs showing”, “tackle from behind”, “not malicious”... they all serve varying degrees of purpose as guidelines or shorthand, but they’re not the explicit rules by which decisions are made.
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Post by pottersrule on Apr 11, 2019 14:59:35 GMT
Crazy decision. He was an appalling ref who just wanted to give the home crowd everything they wanted Not said much about the ref,because would sound like sour grapes and we were well off the pace.He was though fuckin pathetic and gave Swansea absolutely everything.The crowd completely intimidated him,and bayed for a foul every time we made a tackle.Gave us fuck all,a complete homer.Would love to see what score he was given by each team.Swansea 9 Stoke 3?
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Post by pottersrule on Apr 11, 2019 15:03:03 GMT
yeah, we had one of these against someone the exact same situation I think they fouled ince and only a yellow was given, but Cus it’s stoke it probably won’t gwt overturned Irrelevant if Stoke or any other team. Doesn't come into it. Even the Swans commentator was surprised at the red and he was obviously biased to his own team and nothing wrong with that, we all are. Never a red for me Has to be a clear and obvious goal scoring position.It was never that from there.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 11, 2019 15:03:22 GMT
That alone is a rarity , not sure anyone on an appeal panel would consider it possible or if it was capable of stopping anyone .
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Post by musik on Apr 11, 2019 15:05:25 GMT
So what is "The Rule"? Anyone who prevents someone from scoring could get a red? It was just about a free kick, if you go by how dangerous the tackle was. To answer your earlier point, there are loads of terms in common usage among commentators and the public that aren’t actually part of the laws of the game - “he got the ball”, “last man”, “studs showing”, “tackle from behind”, “not malicious”... they all serve varying degrees of purpose as guidelines or shorthand, but they’re not the explicit rules by which decisions are made. Well, you would have thought coaches know the rules.
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Post by pretzel on Apr 11, 2019 15:07:18 GMT
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Post by scfcwebby on Apr 11, 2019 15:11:28 GMT
That article implies that the foul had to be committed inside the box to consider it clear? 🤔
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Post by thebet365 on Apr 11, 2019 15:47:29 GMT
That article implies that the foul had to be committed inside the box to consider it clear? 🤔 That article is purely about the change in rule regarding the old "Triple punishment" which was when for eg, a goalie comes out for the ball, misses and takes the player then a 1) A penalty was awarded 2) Red card to the goalie 3) Goalie serves a ban If it's in the area and a genuine attempt for the ball ends up being a foul then the Penalty is now deemed enough punishment and just a yellow issued. Outside the area it's still a red because there's no penalty awarded.
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Post by musik on Apr 11, 2019 15:47:48 GMT
I don't think it was accidental. He knew where he had his ass, what he was trying to do.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Apr 11, 2019 16:03:39 GMT
Well well well WTF do I know 😄
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Post by bigcashprizes on Apr 11, 2019 16:04:24 GMT
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Post by lordb on Apr 11, 2019 16:09:43 GMT
Only seen it once have to say I thought it was a red card all day long Appreciate that is a minority view
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Post by bigcashprizes on Apr 11, 2019 16:12:22 GMT
Only seen it once have to say I thought it was a red card all day long Appreciate that is a minority view I saw it once and thought the complete opposite! Shit like this highlights the potential problems of VAR
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Post by Veritas on Apr 11, 2019 16:12:25 GMT
It has been overturned, BMI free to play on Saturday
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Post by PotterLog on Apr 11, 2019 16:13:49 GMT
Proper unfair that we just have to take the points loss from a wrong decision like that. I know we were shite anyway but that’s not the point
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 11, 2019 16:16:27 GMT
Doesn't help us Tuesday though does it. If that incompetent twat of a ref hadn't bent to the Swansea pressure we might, just might, have got something out of that. Hopefully though Jones will have seen how much better at left back Clucas was and play him there on Saturday anyway.
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