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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2017 15:07:36 GMT
A lot of teams are relegated with a new manager because the old manager was taking them down anyway. In some cases they actually waited too long to make the change. Sunderland were 19th when Allardyce was appointed. And he has experience managing the kind of players Hughes has brought in and would hopefully get a window to bring his own types in as well. Don't like him as a man and would prefer we made an imaginative overseas appointment, but if we're assuming Coates is a buy British man, he's the best option by an embarrassing margin. Every new appointment is a gamble so by that logic nobody would ever change managers until they were, like Sunderland with Moyes, absolutely screwed would they? Sometimes it's right to make a change. Would Southampton have been better off keeping Adkins instead of appointing Pochettino? Should Palace have stuck with Pardew? Should West Brom have stuck with Alan Irvine? I stand corrected, but I remember after he took over Sunderland they had a disastrous run and were in a worse position than when he took over at one point. After his first few weeks, here in the north-east, a lot of fans were baying for him to be sacked. Oatcake posters have been anti-Hughes to a large degree since he took over particularly after his first few weeks, I don't think they would give any new manager a fair chance. Some idiots think you simply bring in someone new and results change for the better. My point above is that is not usually, never mind always, the case. You say "the old manager was taking them down anyway"; that may be true in some cases but how do we know? It is pure speculation. I am definitely of the view that Hughes would not take any side to relegation, he is too good for that, and even if you don't agree, he is miles better than Pardew and Irvine. I would love us to find a Pochettino, but what are the chances? You are also right to say "every new appointment is a gamble", but I would not gamble on anyone being better than Hughes, based on his record as a manager. The "people's choice" is Allardyce, but I don't think he as good as some people seem to think and certainly a class below Hughes. What would it take for me to change my mind? I would call for him to go, if he lost the dressing room. IMO there is no evidence of that. The players support him and respect him and want to succeed with him. We should give them all our support. With that squad Allardyce was never going to work miracles overnight. They should've been relegated years earlier by rights. I think it's unfair to lump all posters together - the mood on here has not been overwhelmingly anti-Hughes since his appointment - generally the opposite really, with the exception of the kind of poster who'd accidentally call Tony Pulis "daddy" if they bumped into him in the street. He's earned a lot of goodwill and it's just gradually eroded because we've been so poor for so long. I don't agree that more often than not sacking a manager does more harm than good. I think it's a case by case basis. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong one. Sometimes you reach a point of no return, even with a good manager. Ranieri at Leicester. Pulis here. I think you can find a Pochettino if you do your scouting properly and find the right fit. It's still a gamble, but Southampton didn't 'know' they were getting that, they just did their homework and hoped for the best. Even if we scrape up with Hughes, do you see us getting back to being the team we were at the end of his second season? As Smudge wrote in his Sentinel piece, we look a million miles away from that side. I say it reluctantly as someone who likes Hughes and thinks he's done a decent job overall, but at what point does enough become enough with these chaotic yet somehow lifeless performances?
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 15:16:17 GMT
I stand corrected, but I remember after he took over Sunderland they had a disastrous run and were in a worse position than when he took over at one point. After his first few weeks, here in the north-east, a lot of fans were baying for him to be sacked. Oatcake posters have been anti-Hughes to a large degree since he took over particularly after his first few weeks, I don't think they would give any new manager a fair chance. Some idiots think you simply bring in someone new and results change for the better. My point above is that is not usually, never mind always, the case. You say "the old manager was taking them down anyway"; that may be true in some cases but how do we know? It is pure speculation. I am definitely of the view that Hughes would not take any side to relegation, he is too good for that, and even if you don't agree, he is miles better than Pardew and Irvine. I would love us to find a Pochettino, but what are the chances? You are also right to say "every new appointment is a gamble", but I would not gamble on anyone being better than Hughes, based on his record as a manager. The "people's choice" is Allardyce, but I don't think he as good as some people seem to think and certainly a class below Hughes. What would it take for me to change my mind? I would call for him to go, if he lost the dressing room. IMO there is no evidence of that. The players support him and respect him and want to succeed with him. We should give them all our support. With that squad Allardyce was never going to work miracles overnight. They should've been relegated years earlier by rights. I think it's unfair to lump all posters together - the mood on here has not been overwhelmingly anti-Hughes since his appointment - generally the opposite really, with the exception of the kind of poster who'd accidentally call Tony Pulis "daddy" if they bumped into him in the street. He's earned a lot of goodwill and it's just gradually eroded because we've been so poor for so long. I don't agree that more often than not sacking a manager does more harm than good. I think it's a case by case basis. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong one. Sometimes you reach a point of no return, even with a good manager. Ranieri at Leicester. Pulis here. I think you can find a Pochettino if you do your scouting properly and find the right fit. It's still a gamble, but Southampton didn't 'know' they were getting that, they just did their homework and hoped for the best. Even if we scrape up with Hughes, do you see us getting back to being the team we were at the end of his second season? As Smudge wrote in his Sentinel piece, we look a million miles away from that side. I say it reluctantly as someone who likes Hughes and thinks he's done a decent job overall, but at what point does enough become enough with these chaotic yet somehow lifeless performances? You've seen what points he achieved at West Ham rob in 3 full seasons, would you be happy with 3 seasons of points under 5O at Stoke?
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Post by Davef on Oct 27, 2017 15:18:35 GMT
I stand corrected, but I remember after he took over Sunderland they had a disastrous run and were in a worse position than when he took over at one point. After his first few weeks, here in the north-east, a lot of fans were baying for him to be sacked. Oatcake posters have been anti-Hughes to a large degree since he took over particularly after his first few weeks, I don't think they would give any new manager a fair chance. Some idiots think you simply bring in someone new and results change for the better. My point above is that is not usually, never mind always, the case. You say "the old manager was taking them down anyway"; that may be true in some cases but how do we know? It is pure speculation. I am definitely of the view that Hughes would not take any side to relegation, he is too good for that, and even if you don't agree, he is miles better than Pardew and Irvine. I would love us to find a Pochettino, but what are the chances? You are also right to say "every new appointment is a gamble", but I would not gamble on anyone being better than Hughes, based on his record as a manager. The "people's choice" is Allardyce, but I don't think he as good as some people seem to think and certainly a class below Hughes. What would it take for me to change my mind? I would call for him to go, if he lost the dressing room. IMO there is no evidence of that. The players support him and respect him and want to succeed with him. We should give them all our support. With that squad Allardyce was never going to work miracles overnight. They should've been relegated years earlier by rights. I think it's unfair to lump all posters together - the mood on here has not been overwhelmingly anti-Hughes since his appointment - generally the opposite really, with the exception of the kind of poster who'd accidentally call Tony Pulis "daddy" if they bumped into him in the street. He's earned a lot of goodwill and it's just gradually eroded because we've been so poor for so long. I don't agree that more often than not sacking a manager does more harm than good. I think it's a case by case basis. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong one. Sometimes you reach a point of no return, even with a good manager. Ranieri at Leicester. Pulis here. I think you can find a Pochettino if you do your scouting properly and find the right fit. It's still a gamble, but Southampton didn't 'know' they were getting that, they just did their homework and hoped for the best. Even if we scrape up with Hughes, do you see us getting back to being the team we were at the end of his second season? As Smudge wrote in his Sentinel piece, we look a million miles away from that side. I say it reluctantly as someone who likes Hughes and thinks he's done a decent job overall, but at what point does enough become enough with these chaotic yet somehow lifeless performances? The club have tweeted the video of the 2-1 victory at Watford a couple of seasons ago, March 19th 2016 to be exact. The general consensus seems to be that the Liverpool semi-final defeat was the start of our downturn in fortunes, but I'd argue that this was the game. It was the last game before Butland suffered his injury and we actually played some excellent football that day. (Watford had actually beaten Arsenal in the cup at the Emirates the week before). That game saw us go 7th in the league, but from then on well we've played 25 away games, won just three, drawn six and lost sixteen. We scored 22 goals and conceded 53. That's pretty dismal and yes, we do look a million miles away from that kind of performance at the moment...and we had Imbula and Afellay running the show in midfield!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 15:28:46 GMT
I wish there was a bit more panicking going on.
Hopefully a visible lack of panicking means some proactive planning is going on behind the scenes.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 15:31:17 GMT
In his first season Hughes had 13 wins, 11 draws, 14 losses.
In his second season he had 15 wins, 9 draws, 14 losses.
In his third season he had 14 wins, 9 draws, 15 losses.
In his fourth season he had 11 wins, 11 draws 16 losses.
Leaving aside the quality of the performances, the stats show a minor decline in results but in the main a significant level of consistency.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2017 15:40:58 GMT
In his first season Hughes had 13 wins, 11 draws, 14 losses. In his second season he had 15 wins, 9 draws, 14 losses. In his third season he had 14 wins, 9 draws, 15 losses. In his fourth season he had 11 wins, 11 draws 16 losses. Leaving aside the quality of the performances, the stats show a minor decline in results but in the main a significant level of consistency. You can't 'leave aside the quality of the performances' though, or the patterns in which they happen, or the goals scored or goals conceded. You can only do that if your only attachment to the club comes from picking up a newspaper.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2017 15:41:37 GMT
With that squad Allardyce was never going to work miracles overnight. They should've been relegated years earlier by rights. I think it's unfair to lump all posters together - the mood on here has not been overwhelmingly anti-Hughes since his appointment - generally the opposite really, with the exception of the kind of poster who'd accidentally call Tony Pulis "daddy" if they bumped into him in the street. He's earned a lot of goodwill and it's just gradually eroded because we've been so poor for so long. I don't agree that more often than not sacking a manager does more harm than good. I think it's a case by case basis. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong one. Sometimes you reach a point of no return, even with a good manager. Ranieri at Leicester. Pulis here. I think you can find a Pochettino if you do your scouting properly and find the right fit. It's still a gamble, but Southampton didn't 'know' they were getting that, they just did their homework and hoped for the best. Even if we scrape up with Hughes, do you see us getting back to being the team we were at the end of his second season? As Smudge wrote in his Sentinel piece, we look a million miles away from that side. I say it reluctantly as someone who likes Hughes and thinks he's done a decent job overall, but at what point does enough become enough with these chaotic yet somehow lifeless performances? You've seen what points he achieved at West Ham rob in 3 full seasons, would you be happy with 3 seasons of points under 5O at Stoke? I wouldn't see him as a long-term appointment Geoff. He'd be a ship-steadier, nothing more.
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Post by Davef on Oct 27, 2017 15:43:49 GMT
In his first season Hughes had 13 wins, 11 draws, 14 losses. In his second season he had 15 wins, 9 draws, 14 losses. In his third season he had 14 wins, 9 draws, 15 losses. In his fourth season he had 11 wins, 11 draws 16 losses. Leaving aside the quality of the performances, the stats show a minor decline in results but in the main a significant level of consistency. In Hughes's second season we conceded 45 goals. Mr Defence himself only bettered that once (in 2012/13 - though we did score 16 goals less than in 2014/15 managing it). We've conceded 20 in 9 games already this season Geoff.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 15:54:16 GMT
That's probably how it works at the 18 other PL clubs. Only Stoke and Arsenal - strange bedfellows I know - tend to back the manager even after a string of poor results. No manager survives the fans turning. Wenger and Hughes both did, last season. They might well do it again, Hughes if he lives up to Coates' expectations, and Wenger if he so chooses himself.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 27, 2017 15:56:07 GMT
No manager survives the fans turning. Wenger and Hughes both did, last season. They might well do it again, Hughes if he lives up to Coates' expectations, and Wenger if he so chooses himself. The fans haven't fully turned on Wenger. Some have, some haven't. The minute he starts getting large scale barracking at games it'll be over. Same with Hughes. There was frustration last season but it never quite became universally poisonous. Things are rapidly getting there though unfortunately.
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Post by senojbor on Oct 27, 2017 16:01:44 GMT
As a lifelong supporter I find the attitude and statements by the club extremely disappointing. Their attitude is both complacent and unambitious.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 16:03:20 GMT
In his first season Hughes had 13 wins, 11 draws, 14 losses. In his second season he had 15 wins, 9 draws, 14 losses. In his third season he had 14 wins, 9 draws, 15 losses. In his fourth season he had 11 wins, 11 draws 16 losses. Leaving aside the quality of the performances, the stats show a minor decline in results but in the main a significant level of consistency. In Hughes's second season we conceded 45 goals. Mr Defence himself only bettered that once (in 2012/13 - though we did score 16 goals less managing it). We've conceded 20 in 9 games already this season Geoff. I think Dave you might agree that the gap in wealth and spending has widened in the last couple of years between the top six/seven and the rest. I haven't checked the precise details on this but isn't it true to say that Stoke have been leaking goals in the main against the elite Group of clubs last season and this. If you take away the City and Chelsea games for instance you're left with 9 goals in 7 games. It could be that Hughes has lost his touch, that he has made serious errors of judgement in the transfer market, that he doesn't motivate or set the team up right, or maybe the league is even more competitive than 2 years ago and the Stoke Board will have to up their spending to give Hughes the players he needs to take the club forward. I would give Hughes 6 more games and if it's not turning round take action.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 27, 2017 16:06:20 GMT
In Hughes's second season we conceded 45 goals. Mr Defence himself only bettered that once (in 2012/13 - though we did score 16 goals less managing it). We've conceded 20 in 9 games already this season Geoff. I think Dave you might agree that the gap in wealth and spending has widened in the last couple of years between the top six/seven and the rest. I haven't checked the precise details on this but isn't it true to say that Stoke have been leaking goals in the main against the elite Group of clubs last season and this. If you take away the City and Chelsea games for instance you're left with 9 goals in 7 games. It could be that Hughes has lost his touch, that he has made serious errors of judgement in the transfer market, that he doesn't motivate or set the team up right, or maybe the league is even more competitive than 2 years ago and the Stoke Board will have to up their spending to give Hughes the players he needs to take the club forward. I would give Hughes 6 more games and if it's not turning round take action. How many points from those 6 games Geoff, secures his tenure?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 16:07:12 GMT
Two games maximum. He's had long enough? Sorry!
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Post by Sfance on Oct 27, 2017 16:11:10 GMT
Alleluia - One of the major ostriches on this board gives him just six more games. It's as good as over!
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 16:18:57 GMT
I think Dave you might agree that the gap in wealth and spending has widened in the last couple of years between the top six/seven and the rest. I haven't checked the precise details on this but isn't it true to say that Stoke have been leaking goals in the main against the elite Group of clubs last season and this. If you take away the City and Chelsea games for instance you're left with 9 goals in 7 games. It could be that Hughes has lost his touch, that he has made serious errors of judgement in the transfer market, that he doesn't motivate or set the team up right, or maybe the league is even more competitive than 2 years ago and the Stoke Board will have to up their spending to give Hughes the players he needs to take the club forward. I would give Hughes 6 more games and if it's not turning round take action. How many points from those 6 games Geoff, secures his tenure? Looking at the fixtures I think it's possible he will get 1O points, so I could see 3 wins and 1 draw but it won't be easy. If he achieves that I think Coates will give him the full season.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 27, 2017 16:20:07 GMT
No chance he’ll get 6 games imo,he’ll need a win in the next 2 games to calm the nerves of the fans and the board. Just looking at his record when he was sacked on 22nd Nov 2012 at QPR and it was W0 D3 L8(league games) so Fernandes sat tight for a while with that poor record.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 16:25:23 GMT
No chance he’ll get 6 games imo,he’ll need a win in the next 2 games to calm the nerves of the fans and the board. Just looking at his record when he was sacked on 22nd Nov 2012 at QPR and it was W0 D3 L8(league games) so Fernandes sat tight for a while with that poor record. I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 27, 2017 16:27:33 GMT
How many points from those 6 games Geoff, secures his tenure? Looking at the fixtures I think it's possible he will get 1O points, so I could see 3 wins and 1 draw but it won't be easy. If he achieves that I think Coates will give him the full season. Fair enough. I had 11 minimum, 13 at best. But that includes a draw minimum tomorrow. If not then Leicester is 3 points or gone for me. Starting from 8 points from 9 isn't looking good.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 27, 2017 16:30:02 GMT
No chance he’ll get 6 games imo,he’ll need a win in the next 2 games to calm the nerves of the fans and the board. Just looking at his record when he was sacked on 22nd Nov 2012 at QPR and it was W0 D3 L8(league games) so Fernandes sat tight for a while with that poor record. I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance. If we get beat badly tomorrow he’ll be gone by next week imo.Also why have Brighton and Palace away suddenly become winnable games considering our away form?
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 27, 2017 16:35:29 GMT
I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance. If we get beat badly tomorrow he’ll be gone by next week imo.Also why have Brighton and Palace away suddenly become winnable games considering our away form? They are winnable, as is any game in the PL.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 27, 2017 16:37:42 GMT
If we get beat badly tomorrow he’ll be gone by next week imo.Also why have Brighton and Palace away suddenly become winnable games considering our away form? They are winnable, as is any game in the PL. Dont disagree mate but with our away record we don’t go into those games thinking 6 points as fans
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Post by senojbor on Oct 27, 2017 16:37:56 GMT
No chance he’ll get 6 games imo,he’ll need a win in the next 2 games to calm the nerves of the fans and the board. Just looking at his record when he was sacked on 22nd Nov 2012 at QPR and it was W0 D3 L8(league games) so Fernandes sat tight for a while with that poor record. I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance. Are you one of these people who just simply refuses to accept things because you've set your stall out and can't accept reality? The reality is we've been piss poor over the last 20 months and it's become blindingly obvious that things are not going to miraculously improve.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 27, 2017 16:39:09 GMT
As a lifelong supporter I find the attitude and statements by the club extremely disappointing. Their attitude is both complacent and unambitious. I agree, but I know you like the manager to dumb down expectations rather than the board.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 16:39:25 GMT
I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance. If we get beat badly tomorrow he’ll be gone by next week imo.Also why have Brighton and Palace away suddenly become winnable games considering our away form? You may well be right, football Chairman have been know to panic and give way to fans pressure. I can see the fall off in results and performances like everyone else, but I think because of his overal performance as manager he deserves a little more time.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 27, 2017 16:42:26 GMT
I think if he beats Leicester, then with Brighton and Palace to follow he's got a fighting chance. Are you one of these people who just simply refuses to accept things because you've set your stall out and can't accept reality? The reality is we've been piss poor over the last 20 months and it's become blindingly obvious that things are not going to miraculously improve. Peter Coates doesn't seem convinced of that yet and his opinion is the only one that matters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 16:44:45 GMT
No chance he’ll get 6 games imo,he’ll need a win in the next 2 games to calm the nerves of the fans and the board. Just looking at his record when he was sacked on 22nd Nov 2012 at QPR and it was W0 D3 L8(league games) so Fernandes sat tight for a while with that poor record. Oh yes absolutely, he's got to win one of the next two at least. If he does I think he then has to take a decent points haul from this next six games, like Geoff says, if he is to keep his job. I think the board would much prefer to part on amicable terms next summer and have a new manager lined up
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Post by mozzer on Oct 27, 2017 16:47:40 GMT
With that squad Allardyce was never going to work miracles overnight. They should've been relegated years earlier by rights. I think it's unfair to lump all posters together - the mood on here has not been overwhelmingly anti-Hughes since his appointment - generally the opposite really, with the exception of the kind of poster who'd accidentally call Tony Pulis "daddy" if they bumped into him in the street. He's earned a lot of goodwill and it's just gradually eroded because we've been so poor for so long. I don't agree that more often than not sacking a manager does more harm than good. I think it's a case by case basis. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong one. Sometimes you reach a point of no return, even with a good manager. Ranieri at Leicester. Pulis here. I think you can find a Pochettino if you do your scouting properly and find the right fit. It's still a gamble, but Southampton didn't 'know' they were getting that, they just did their homework and hoped for the best. Even if we scrape up with Hughes, do you see us getting back to being the team we were at the end of his second season? As Smudge wrote in his Sentinel piece, we look a million miles away from that side. I say it reluctantly as someone who likes Hughes and thinks he's done a decent job overall, but at what point does enough become enough with these chaotic yet somehow lifeless performances? The club have tweeted the video of the 2-1 victory at Watford a couple of seasons ago, March 19th 2016 to be exact. The general consensus seems to be that the Liverpool semi-final defeat was the start of our downturn in fortunes, but I'd argue that this was the game. It was the last game before Butland suffered his injury and we actually played some excellent football that day. (Watford had actually beaten Arsenal in the cup at the Emirates the week before). That game saw us go 7th in the league, but from then on well we've played 25 away games, won just three, drawn six and lost sixteen. We scored 22 goals and conceded 53. That's pretty dismal and yes, we do look a million miles away from that kind of performance at the moment...and we had Imbula and Afellay running the show in midfield! Bang on Dave, bang fucking on! It's not been the odd game it's been over time period with the odd win pampering over the cracks, plus....... The obvious lack of foresight to remedy shortcomings in the squad to cover for injury and what is needed tactically to adjust when injuries bite I only said last night that Doncaster away in the cup was the start of the slide to shit....even though we had played two of the best games I have ever witnessed as a long term stoke fan only weeks before the Doncaster debacle
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Post by senojbor on Oct 27, 2017 16:47:46 GMT
As a lifelong supporter I find the attitude and statements by the club extremely disappointing. Their attitude is both complacent and unambitious. I agree, but I know you like the manager to dumb down expectations rather than the board. Thought you'd be along to stick your neb in. We vastly exceeded expectations under the last manager when we were languishing in the relegation zone of league one.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 27, 2017 16:49:00 GMT
It's results and manner of performance. It's clear that the owner was far from happy about the reaction to a 7 goal battering.
Hughes is on a knife edge despite the noises coming out of the club. Rightly so.
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