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Post by Northy on Oct 24, 2017 6:49:27 GMT
I must be the only one on here but I fully back Hughes right now. Every team has a off day and we didn't play well enough to get anything on Saturday. We aren't in the middle of the season, it is still early. 16 games in and if we are still not improving, then I would question what is going on, we are a mid table team I don't know what people want. a bit of effort and fight for their £50k a week ?
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Post by boothenboys1863 on Oct 24, 2017 6:56:17 GMT
This! I was saying exactly the same thing Saturday night.. it’s not just the loosing I’ve been going stoke for 23 years. I can cope although it still hurts but I can get by when we loose. I’m used to it! But when there’s no passion or fight it’s fucking gutting to watch, if every player could honestly come off the pitch and say I’ve give 110% today and we as fans agreed I could accept loosing, because I’d feel we’re all in it together. But honestly not 1 player ever looks like they’ve literally given it their all. Now for me, I know Hughes can’t exactly tell players to run he shouldn’t have to they’re footballers. But he should motivate them enough to make them want to put it in and work hard. He clearly doesn’t do that! This shit at the minute is so embarrassing to watch and has been for the past 2 years. Mark Hughes has ripped the soul out of my football club, I’ve lost a passion for them I’ve lost the will to get behind them and I’ve certainly lost touch with the players. As a fan we all like to think from the very top down to us fans we are all one unit. But I feel as though it’s the board and the manager together, then the players in a separate group and then us, the fans! He’s completely ripped the soul out of us! A lot of that is just like any prem club. Even Cardiff had their soul ripped out until Warnock gave them a bit of pride back. Sadly it's all over football culture now. The fans aren't a big part of the clubs. It's just money and entertainment, and all about 13 year old Abdul from Malaysia tweeting about Arsenal and 52 year old Ranjit from Islamabad buying a knock off Man City shirt. It’s a shame mate, you spend all your life dreaming of little Stoke City reaching the promise land that is the premier league but once you’re there it’s like what’s the point.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 24, 2017 7:01:46 GMT
I must be the only one on here but I fully back Hughes right now. Every team has a off day and we didn't play well enough to get anything on Saturday. We aren't in the middle of the season, it is still early. 16 games in and if we are still not improving, then I would question what is going on, we are a mid table team I don't know what people want. a bit of effort and fight for their £50k a week ? A mid table team
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 7:43:03 GMT
I wonder how key the upcoming international break will be? One thing for certain with Hughes is all of his backroom staff, including the U23s manager are tied in with him, which would leave us with no real interim manager.
A two week break should be enough to fire and hire sufficiently.
I wonder if the board are seriously considering it if the next two games go pear shaped?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 7:58:46 GMT
Even if it is on the Board's mind how long do we realistically think they'll give Hughes to show that results and, possibly to a lesser extent in their view, performances are improving ?
Is it the upcoming 4 "more winnable" games or would they give him till around mid-December/just before the next transfer window ?
IMO he should be gone already but maybe they'll give him the next 2 games and if we lose against Watford and Leicester, which I think we will, then maybe they'll finally accept action needs to be taken before it's too late.
Edit : just read the above post - same question basically.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 24, 2017 7:58:56 GMT
I wonder how key the upcoming international break will be? One thing for certain with Hughes is all of his backroom staff, including the U23s manager are tied in with him, which would leave us with no real interim manager. A two week break should be enough to fire and hire sufficiently. I wonder if the board are seriously considering it if the next two games go pear shaped? Coates is a hard one to read. The international break would be a perfect time for a change, but it's hard to gauge how he really feels. Mind you, we're at the kind of point where things can move very quickly based on how the Watford and Leicester games unfold As you said, there's a little flash of anger in his comments and frustration at more calamitous defending. “It did surprise me because I thought we would come out on the front foot . We were at home and after a bad result the week before you expect a reaction, but I didn’t see it.
“We were much better second half, but in my experience if you concede two goals you very rarely win football matches.”
But, at the same time, he's only willing to acknowledge TWO disappointing results, rather than reflect on any wider trends like relegation form over the calendar year and regular mullerings. “I am concerned about the last two poor results and we need to do better. But I did say two poor results. I don’t think results have been poor up to then.”
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 24, 2017 8:20:57 GMT
I wonder how key the upcoming international break will be? One thing for certain with Hughes is all of his backroom staff, including the U23s manager are tied in with him, which would leave us with no real interim manager. A two week break should be enough to fire and hire sufficiently. I wonder if the board are seriously considering it if the next two games go pear shaped? Coates is a hard one to read. The international break would be a perfect time for a change, but it's hard to gauge how he really feels. Mind you, we're at the kind of point where things can move very quickly based on how the Watford and Leicester games unfold As you said, there's a little flash of anger in his comments and frustration at more calamitous defending. “It did surprise me because I thought we would come out on the front foot . We were at home and after a bad result the week before you expect a reaction, but I didn’t see it.
“We were much better second half, but in my experience if you concede two goals you very rarely win football matches.”
But, at the same time, he's only willing to acknowledge TWO disappointing results, rather than reflect on any wider trends like relegation form over the calendar year and regular mullerings. “I am concerned about the last two poor results and we need to do better. But I did say two poor results. I don’t think results have been poor up to then.”If he mentions the last couple of years deterioration then he possibly opens himself up to further questions, ones he perhaps he doesn't want to be drawn into. For example; you acknowledge the longer term difficulties the club have had, does that reflect on your board in providing adequate resources? Transfer policy, reinvestment of Arnie money etc. Two bad games reflects on the manager, 2 bad years spreads the blame much wider.
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Post by alster on Oct 24, 2017 8:23:15 GMT
Coates is a hard one to read. The international break would be a perfect time for a change, but it's hard to gauge how he really feels. Mind you, we're at the kind of point where things can move very quickly based on how the Watford and Leicester games unfold As you said, there's a little flash of anger in his comments and frustration at more calamitous defending. “It did surprise me because I thought we would come out on the front foot . We were at home and after a bad result the week before you expect a reaction, but I didn’t see it.
“We were much better second half, but in my experience if you concede two goals you very rarely win football matches.”
But, at the same time, he's only willing to acknowledge TWO disappointing results, rather than reflect on any wider trends like relegation form over the calendar year and regular mullerings. “I am concerned about the last two poor results and we need to do better. But I did say two poor results. I don’t think results have been poor up to then.”If he mentions the last couple of years deterioration then he possibly opens himself up to further questions, ones he perhaps he doesn't want to be drawn into. For example; you acknowledge the longer term difficulties the club have had, does that reflect on your board in providing adequate resources? Transfer policy, reinvestment of Arnie money etc. Two bad games reflects on the manager, 2 bad years spreads the blame much wider. Yeah like 2 bad years and you still haven't acted. How long do you want?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 8:26:29 GMT
I honestly think two more poor results will be the end of Hughes and to be honest he couldn't complain. He's had more than enough time to rectify a situation that's entirely of his own making.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 24, 2017 8:30:44 GMT
If he mentions the last couple of years deterioration then he possibly opens himself up to further questions, ones he perhaps he doesn't want to be drawn into. For example; you acknowledge the longer term difficulties the club have had, does that reflect on your board in providing adequate resources? Transfer policy, reinvestment of Arnie money etc. Two bad games reflects on the manager, 2 bad years spreads the blame much wider. Yeah like 2 bad years and you still haven't acted. How long do you want? Doesn't even have to go back that far to make it uncomfortable for Coates. A decline last season to 13th opens up a can of worms on manager retainment, summer transfer dealings (free's/loans/reinvestment) etc. I'm not suggesting PC is knowingly playing the 'look at the last 2 games' card, but it helps the containment of the problem from going wider. Things must be bad, we agree with each other
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2017 8:33:56 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance.
The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 24, 2017 8:39:28 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance. The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL. 2 points or 20 points is irrelevant. If Vettel finishes 2/100th of a second or 2 minutes behind Hamilton he doesn't win the race.
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Post by JoeinOz on Oct 24, 2017 8:42:52 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance. The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL. We finished 9th in 2015/16. But if you couldn't see we were in decline for the second half you are severely deluded. And as you have been told dozens of times. Current discontent isn't because of a failure to satisfy previous high standards. It's because we look increasingly like a team about to be dragged into a relegation struggle. Don't say it again. To do so would be little more than obstinate.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2017 8:44:05 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance. The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL. 2 points or 20 points is irrelevant. If Vettel finishes 2/100th of a second or 2 minutes behind Hamilton he doesn't win the race. That's a different argument though, I'm dealing with the two bad years statement.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 24, 2017 8:48:11 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance. The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL. Whether you want to go calendar year, a comparison with Shakespeare at Leicester, or since the January 2016 semi, the trend lines are alarming, Geoff. There are always ups and downs for Premier League small fry, but we're now getting to the stage where you can fairly say Pulis and Hughes are reasonably lucky boys to still be in work, however you slice it. The £50m spend on Imbula, Wimmer and Berahino could be what does for him. Those failures mean the meagre relative funds he's been given hasn't ended up on the pitch to regenerate things
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 24, 2017 8:49:52 GMT
2 points or 20 points is irrelevant. If Vettel finishes 2/100th of a second or 2 minutes behind Hamilton he doesn't win the race. That's a different argument though, I'm dealing with the two bad years statement. Your words I quoted: Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance.
50% of your post (2 out of 4 sentences). If you can't defend 50% of what you type don't type it.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2017 9:00:56 GMT
Thw 2 bad years comment that keeps appearing on here is a distortion of the picture. Last season Stoke finished 13th, two points off 8th position and it's true it was an up and down season in terms of results. Nevertheless for a club like Stoke 13th and two points off 8th place is in overall terms a strong performance. The problem for Mark Hughes is that he set such a high standard in his first 3 years that many expect nothing less, football doesn't work like that though as we can see with a number of teams in the PL. Whether you want to go calendar year, a comparison with Shakespeare at Leicester, or since the January 2016 semi, the trend lines are alarming, Geoff. There are always ups and downs for Premier League small fry, but we're now getting to the stage where you can fairly say Pulis and Hughes are reasonably lucky boys to still be in work, however you slice it. The £50m spend on Imbula, Wimmer and Berahino could be what does for him. Those failures mean the meagre relative funds he's been given hasn't ended up on the pitch to regenerate things I understand FM the point you make and the fact that results have declined under Hughes from the high standards he set, whichever way you look at it. My point though is that Stoke as a club have enjoyed in the last 4 years some of the best times in the clubs history, that's what the record books will show. So to sum it up, does a manager of a medium sized club like Stoke, who has a record of 9th, 9th, 9th, 13th, deserve the sack when he himself is saying to the Sentinel that fans need not worry because he will turn it round as he as always done.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 24, 2017 9:10:27 GMT
When you say it's gonna happen now, well when exactly do you mean?
Cos I've already waited too long, and all my hope is gone.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 24, 2017 9:17:21 GMT
Whether you want to go calendar year, a comparison with Shakespeare at Leicester, or since the January 2016 semi, the trend lines are alarming, Geoff. There are always ups and downs for Premier League small fry, but we're now getting to the stage where you can fairly say Pulis and Hughes are reasonably lucky boys to still be in work, however you slice it. The £50m spend on Imbula, Wimmer and Berahino could be what does for him. Those failures mean the meagre relative funds he's been given hasn't ended up on the pitch to regenerate things I understand FM the point you make and the fact that results have declined under Hughes from the high standards he set, whichever way you look at it. My point though is that Stoke as a club have enjoyed in the last 4 years some of the best times in the clubs history, that's what the record books will show. So to sum it up, does a manager of a medium sized club like Stoke, who has a record of 9th, 9th, 9th, 13th, deserve the sack when he himself is saying to the Sentinel that fans need not worry because he will turn it round as he as always done. What is relevant is what is happening NOW Geoff. Over the last 38 games we have won 10, drawn 11, lost 17 and have a minus 19 goal difference, which has given us 41 points. Since the start of 2017 our points average over the course of a season would have yielded a points average of 39 points. For a long time now we have been just a tiny bit better than relegation form, what people are legitimately worried about is that if the current trend continues, then there's a distinct possibility we could end up in the brown stuff. This isn't just a little slump or a bad start, it's been going on for a very good while.
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Post by alster on Oct 24, 2017 9:22:11 GMT
Yeah like 2 bad years and you still haven't acted. How long do you want? Doesn't even have to go back that far to make it uncomfortable for Coates. A decline last season to 13th opens up a can of worms on manager retainment, summer transfer dealings (free's/loans/reinvestment) etc. I'm not suggesting PC is knowingly playing the 'look at the last 2 games' card, but it helps the containment of the problem from going wider. Things must be bad, we agree with each other That's because you're beginning to see the light re Coates. He's done great things for the club in his second tenure but the last few years doesn't stand scrutiny well. Hughes is lost but he's not the only one.
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Post by alster on Oct 24, 2017 9:25:36 GMT
Whether you want to go calendar year, a comparison with Shakespeare at Leicester, or since the January 2016 semi, the trend lines are alarming, Geoff. There are always ups and downs for Premier League small fry, but we're now getting to the stage where you can fairly say Pulis and Hughes are reasonably lucky boys to still be in work, however you slice it. The £50m spend on Imbula, Wimmer and Berahino could be what does for him. Those failures mean the meagre relative funds he's been given hasn't ended up on the pitch to regenerate things I understand FM the point you make and the fact that results have declined under Hughes from the high standards he set, whichever way you look at it. My point though is that Stoke as a club have enjoyed in the last 4 years some of the best times in the clubs history, that's what the record books will show. So to sum it up, does a manager of a medium sized club like Stoke, who has a record of 9th, 9th, 9th, 13th, deserve the sack when he himself is saying to the Sentinel that fans need not worry because he will turn it round as he as always done. Turn it around as he's always done, suggests he knows he keeps getting himself in the shit. Why doesn't he learn from it?
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Post by professorplump on Oct 24, 2017 9:29:52 GMT
I am a bit torn on this one. Ideally I would like Mark Hughes to stay and turn things around but that is increasingly looking unlikely. If we are going to sack the manager then realistically we need to do so by no later than the end of November. It may take up to 2 weeks to find a replacement and the new manager would need time to assess the squad before the January transfer window. That is of course assuming that funds will be made available for signings. We don't normally do much business in January. Finding the right replacement will be critical. A new manager doesn't guarantee any improvement (remember Bob Bradley). Also some high profile names may be put off by Peter Coates' self sufficiency policy. Mark Hughes has clearly made mistakes with some signings and tactics and in particular he needs to sort out the defence as we look disorganised at the back. Having said that, not all our problems are down to him. We had Lemina all but signed until the board stuffed up the contract negotiations. The failure to then sign Delph or anyone else has left us critically short in midfield and we have little alternative to playing Fletcher and Allen in every game. If Hughes goes then I think 'Head of Recruitment' Cartwright should also consider his position.
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Post by geoff321 on Oct 24, 2017 9:30:10 GMT
I understand FM the point you make and the fact that results have declined under Hughes from the high standards he set, whichever way you look at it. My point though is that Stoke as a club have enjoyed in the last 4 years some of the best times in the clubs history, that's what the record books will show. So to sum it up, does a manager of a medium sized club like Stoke, who has a record of 9th, 9th, 9th, 13th, deserve the sack when he himself is saying to the Sentinel that fans need not worry because he will turn it round as he as always done. What is relevant is what is happening NOW Geoff. Over the last 38 games we have won 10, drawn 11, lost 17 and have a minus 19 goal difference, which has given us 41 points. Since the start of 2017 our points average over the course of a season would have yielded a points average of 39 points. For a long time now we have been just a tiny bit better than relegation form, what people are legitimately worried about is that if the current trend continues, then there's a distinct possibility we could end up in the brown stuff. This isn't just a little slump or a bad start, it's been going on for a very good while. If the the criteria being applied to Mark Hughes had been applied to Tony Waddington, Waddo would have been sacked years before his wonderful achievements of 1972, and yes I know things are different today. Sacking Hughes NOW would be a mistake, unless there is a real disaster in term of results the club should review at the end of the season.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 24, 2017 9:39:09 GMT
What is relevant is what is happening NOW Geoff. Over the last 38 games we have won 10, drawn 11, lost 17 and have a minus 19 goal difference, which has given us 41 points. Since the start of 2017 our points average over the course of a season would have yielded a points average of 39 points. For a long time now we have been just a tiny bit better than relegation form, what people are legitimately worried about is that if the current trend continues, then there's a distinct possibility we could end up in the brown stuff. This isn't just a little slump or a bad start, it's been going on for a very good while. If the the criteria being applied to Mark Hughes had been applied to Tony Waddington, Waddo would have been sacked years before his wonderful achievements of 1972, and yes I know things are different today. Sacking Hughes NOW would be a mistake, unless there is a real disaster in term of results the club should review at the end of the season. If you know things are different today then what's the point in even bringing it up? You can be no more certain that sacking Hughes now would be a mistake than those people who want him gone. Indeed the results over the last 8/10/12/18 (whichever period you wish to consider) months of actual football would suggest it's a pretty high risk strategy not to sack him now.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Oct 24, 2017 9:50:07 GMT
My trigger finger is certainly twitching and I pride myself on being a reasonable man! A bit like you, Mr Spencer! Two defeats in a row may not get Mark Hughes on the team bus to Brighton, but I'm buggered to see how a new manager can cut his cloth accordingly from the squad he'd inherit and we're a while off January!
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Post by alster on Oct 24, 2017 9:50:07 GMT
I am a bit torn on this one. Ideally I would like Mark Hughes to stay and turn things around but that is increasingly looking unlikely. If we are going to sack the manager then realistically we need to do so by no later than the end of November. It may take up to 2 weeks to find a replacement and the new manager would need time to assess the squad before the January transfer window. That is of course assuming that funds will be made available for signings. We don't normally do much business in January. Finding the right replacement will be critical. A new manager doesn't guarantee any improvement (remember Bob Bradley). Also some high profile names may be put off by Peter Coates' self sufficiency policy. Mark Hughes has clearly made mistakes with some signings and tactics and in particular he needs to sort out the defence as we look disorganised at the back. Having said that, not all our problems are down to him. We had Lemina all but signed until the board stuffed up the contract negotiations. The failure to then sign Delph or anyone else has left us critically short in midfield and we have little alternative to playing Fletcher and Allen in every game. If Hughes goes then I think 'Head of Recruitment' Cartwright should also consider his position. We have no idea who's responsible for our woes in the market but its clear that we rarely get our first second or third choice players. I'm not sure whether we don't really want to spend the money or whether Scholes just fucks deals up by being a twat. Is Cartwright really shit we've been linked with players who go on to do pretty well but always seem to end up with someone else Soares/Johnson Maguire/Wimmer Berahino/Gabbiadini. How would things stand if we'd got the right deals over the line instead of the wrong ones. Solving our issues may require a total clearout of the people with their fingers in the pie to make sure the rot is stopped.
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Post by magwitch on Oct 24, 2017 9:54:49 GMT
To try and draw some sort of a parallel between Mark Hughes now and Tony Waddington in the sixties is complete nonsense. Waddington's record in the transfer market was far superior to Hughes, the quality of football was better, his use of young players was better as were his tactics. His eventual departure was due to a catastrophic error by the Stoke Board, nothing to do with Waddo. The case for a change of management now is based on waste of resources in the transfer market and general decline over the last 2 years. Practically all managers in the Premier League would have been long gone with a record similar to MH.
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Post by march4 on Oct 24, 2017 10:02:40 GMT
So he has two games before he is forced out.
But it won't be that clear cut will it?
We won't win both games and we won't lose both games.
What if we got one point? Or two points? Or three points?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Oct 24, 2017 10:08:17 GMT
I would back Hughes for now and believe he will get a couple of results in the next 4 games.
It would be good to get a fit, settled defence and also get Shaq back in the team.
If he loses the next 4 games however, the old "results business" cliché might kick in, and if David Moyes were still available, I could see Peter Coates having little choice but to make the change and give Moyes the opportunity to resurrect his reputation and career, a little bit like he did with Hughes.
Whether he would be better for Stoke City in the longer term than Mark Hughes, I really don't know. I think they're both decent Premier League managers.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2017 10:10:14 GMT
What is relevant is what is happening NOW Geoff. Over the last 38 games we have won 10, drawn 11, lost 17 and have a minus 19 goal difference, which has given us 41 points. Since the start of 2017 our points average over the course of a season would have yielded a points average of 39 points. For a long time now we have been just a tiny bit better than relegation form, what people are legitimately worried about is that if the current trend continues, then there's a distinct possibility we could end up in the brown stuff. This isn't just a little slump or a bad start, it's been going on for a very good while. If the the criteria being applied to Mark Hughes had been applied to Tony Waddington, Waddo would have been sacked years before his wonderful achievements of 1972, and yes I know things are different today. Sacking Hughes NOW would be a mistake, unless there is a real disaster in term of results the club should review at the end of the season. What do you think of the club's record in terms of results this calendar year Geoff?
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