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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2023 13:33:14 GMT
WTAF is going on here?
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Post by gawa on Dec 20, 2023 14:33:59 GMT
42% income tax on pay over and beyond 43k. Not on 43k. We've had 15 years of "trickle down economics" and every single public service has got worse. At the same time inequality has grown significantly. Its a step in the right direction. I'm surprised to see you and others opposed to it as some of you make a big song and dance about the "working class". Is that just a facade? Because I don't know any working class people on 43k. Let me guess you think we need to reduce benefits for the vulnerable and sick, shut the borders from people fleeing war, remove the right to strike, increase banker bonuses, increase the limits people can put into pensions tax free to reduce their tax burden, reduce employee rights, keep the tax free non dom status, keep private schools as charities so they pay no tax and hope it all magically trickles down from the top and doesn't end up in some offshore tax haven. The last 15 years shows that doesn't work. The reason there's a big uproar about this from the usual right wing media and political commentators is because these lot are the ones which benefit most from the status quo. Of course they'll come out in their droves talking it down because they make a living out of telling poor people that they're poor because of other poor people. Taxing the rich and clamping down on tax evasion and tax avoidance is their worst nightmare. I'll continue to support the working class because thats my roots and thats what I believe in. I'm sure Anders Polvsen, Glenn Gordon, Sir Ian Wood and Co. Will appreciate your support and concern for them having to pay an extra 1% tax on earnings over and beyond 125k. I'm sure they'll also most certainly be using tricks such as putting more into pensions to avoid the tax burden too as you suggested. Luckily the Tory party, true defenders of the working class according to some of you, increased the tax free allowance on pensions from 40k per year to 60k per year a few months ago. I know crazy. In a time with veterans homeless on streets, food banks by the thousands and elderly people spending days sat on buses to stay warm that the tories made this change which only benefits the rich. But that's what.... in a very strange warped parallel universe... make them the "party of the working class". Also just to correct you. The 42% tax on people earning 43k isn't anything new, it's been there a while. The changes are increased tax on people earning over 75k. It's like me debating why do people earning 15k pay 20% tax and saying that's not rewarding.... it's not changed or different. So no idea why your focus is on thst rather than the tax changes introduced. In England you pay 40% tax on earnings above 37.7k. In Scotland you're paying 21% tax up until 43.7k. So if you think 42% on 43.7k is bad. God knows what you think about those on 37.7k in England. They are terrible tax thresholds in Scotland. I’ve said above what I’d do. Where have I said this government was for the working class? Not sure if you have but one of the people who liked your post likes to tell us that the torys are the true party of working class people. Couldn't be further from the truth. The solution to inequality isn't punishing the poor and vulnerable. Its been tried and tested and failed. If I was in power I'd be bringing down those tax free allowances on pensions too and any other loophole out there. If people don't like it they can feck off to another EU Country and pay even more tax or go to America. Or if people didn't like that then I'd abolish private health care and outlaw it. Then suddenly I think the rich may start caring about our NHS. But when you can pay to skip the queue and look after yourself then those top tax bracket earners will never care.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Dec 20, 2023 15:41:40 GMT
Michael Gove is getting it in the neck at the moment, first the Baroness and now Penny (the sword supreme).
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Post by wannabee on Dec 20, 2023 16:07:39 GMT
42% income tax on pay over and beyond 43k. Not on 43k. We've had 15 years of "trickle down economics" and every single public service has got worse. At the same time inequality has grown significantly. Its a step in the right direction. I'm surprised to see you and others opposed to it as some of you make a big song and dance about the "working class". Is that just a facade? Because I don't know any working class people on 43k. Let me guess you think we need to reduce benefits for the vulnerable and sick, shut the borders from people fleeing war, remove the right to strike, increase banker bonuses, increase the limits people can put into pensions tax free to reduce their tax burden, reduce employee rights, keep the tax free non dom status, keep private schools as charities so they pay no tax and hope it all magically trickles down from the top and doesn't end up in some offshore tax haven. The last 15 years shows that doesn't work. The reason there's a big uproar about this from the usual right wing media and political commentators is because these lot are the ones which benefit most from the status quo. Of course they'll come out in their droves talking it down because they make a living out of telling poor people that they're poor because of other poor people. Taxing the rich and clamping down on tax evasion and tax avoidance is their worst nightmare. I'll continue to support the working class because thats my roots and thats what I believe in. I'm sure Anders Polvsen, Glenn Gordon, Sir Ian Wood and Co. Will appreciate your support and concern for them having to pay an extra 1% tax on earnings over and beyond 125k. I'm sure they'll also most certainly be using tricks such as putting more into pensions to avoid the tax burden too as you suggested. Luckily the Tory party, true defenders of the working class according to some of you, increased the tax free allowance on pensions from 40k per year to 60k per year a few months ago. I know crazy. In a time with veterans homeless on streets, food banks by the thousands and elderly people spending days sat on buses to stay warm that the tories made this change which only benefits the rich. But that's what.... in a very strange warped parallel universe... make them the "party of the working class". Also just to correct you. The 42% tax on people earning 43k isn't anything new, it's been there a while. The changes are increased tax on people earning over 75k. It's like me debating why do people earning 15k pay 20% tax and saying that's not rewarding.... it's not changed or different. So no idea why your focus is on thst rather than the tax changes introduced. In England you pay 40% tax on earnings above 37.7k. In Scotland you're paying 21% tax up until 43.7k. So if you think 42% on 43.7k is bad. God knows what you think about those on 37.7k in England. They are terrible tax thresholds in Scotland. I’ve said above what I’d do. Where have I said this government was for the working class? Sometimes when you're digging a hole you need to realise when to stop digging Average Salaries in Scotland are higher than anywhere in UK except London and just below the South-East The Median Salary in Scotland is 28,300 so more than 50% of Scottish people pay less tax than they would if they lived and worked in England What is your particular objection?
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Post by henry on Dec 20, 2023 17:00:48 GMT
They are terrible tax thresholds in Scotland. I’ve said above what I’d do. Where have I said this government was for the working class? Not sure if you have but one of the people who liked your post likes to tell us that the torys are the true party of working class people. Couldn't be further from the truth. The solution to inequality isn't punishing the poor and vulnerable. Its been tried and tested and failed. If I was in power I'd be bringing down those tax free allowances on pensions too and any other loophole out there. If people don't like it they can feck off to another EU Country and pay even more tax or go to America. Or if people didn't like that then I'd abolish private health care and outlaw it. Then suddenly I think the rich may start caring about our NHS. But when you can pay to skip the queue and look after yourself then those top tax bracket earners will never care. Just for clarity which tax free allowances are you referring to ?
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Post by gawa on Dec 20, 2023 17:48:32 GMT
Not sure if you have but one of the people who liked your post likes to tell us that the torys are the true party of working class people. Couldn't be further from the truth. The solution to inequality isn't punishing the poor and vulnerable. Its been tried and tested and failed. If I was in power I'd be bringing down those tax free allowances on pensions too and any other loophole out there. If people don't like it they can feck off to another EU Country and pay even more tax or go to America. Or if people didn't like that then I'd abolish private health care and outlaw it. Then suddenly I think the rich may start caring about our NHS. But when you can pay to skip the queue and look after yourself then those top tax bracket earners will never care. Just for clarity which tax free allowances are you referring to ? There were big changes to pension allowances in 2023, which you should keep in mind as we head into 2024. First up – the pension annual allowance. This is the total amount you, your employer and any third party can pay in across all your pension plans in a tax year before you face a tax charge. In April, the standard annual allowance went up from £40,000 to £60,000. The money purchase annual allowance increased from £4,000 to £10,000. This impacts people who have started taking their pension savings but want to keep paying into their plan. The increase means you can pay in more than you previously could without facing a tax charge. The minimum tapered annual allowance rose from £4,000 to £10,000, meaning high earners can pay more into their plans than before without facing a tax charge. It affects people whose ‘adjusted income’ is more than £260,000 (previously it was £240,000). You can find out more about pension allowances on MoneyHelper. Finally, let’s look at the pension lifetime allowance. This is the total amount you can have in pension savings during your lifetime – across all pension plans – before an additional tax charge applies. The standard lifetime allowance is £1,073,100. As of 6 April 2023, no-one needed to pay the additional tax charge if they went over the lifetime allowance. The government has now said the lifetime allowance will be totally abolished from 6 April 2024.
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Post by henry on Dec 20, 2023 20:22:01 GMT
Just for clarity which tax free allowances are you referring to ? There were big changes to pension allowances in 2023, which you should keep in mind as we head into 2024. First up – the pension annual allowance. This is the total amount you, your employer and any third party can pay in across all your pension plans in a tax year before you face a tax charge. In April, the standard annual allowance went up from £40,000 to £60,000. The money purchase annual allowance increased from £4,000 to £10,000. This impacts people who have started taking their pension savings but want to keep paying into their plan. The increase means you can pay in more than you previously could without facing a tax charge. The minimum tapered annual allowance rose from £4,000 to £10,000, meaning high earners can pay more into their plans than before without facing a tax charge. It affects people whose ‘adjusted income’ is more than £260,000 (previously it was £240,000). You can find out more about pension allowances on MoneyHelper. Finally, let’s look at the pension lifetime allowance. This is the total amount you can have in pension savings during your lifetime – across all pension plans – before an additional tax charge applies. The standard lifetime allowance is £1,073,100. As of 6 April 2023, no-one needed to pay the additional tax charge if they went over the lifetime allowance. The government has now said the lifetime allowance will be totally abolished from 6 April 2024. Nice googling
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Post by gawa on Dec 20, 2023 21:56:59 GMT
There were big changes to pension allowances in 2023, which you should keep in mind as we head into 2024. First up – the pension annual allowance. This is the total amount you, your employer and any third party can pay in across all your pension plans in a tax year before you face a tax charge. In April, the standard annual allowance went up from £40,000 to £60,000. The money purchase annual allowance increased from £4,000 to £10,000. This impacts people who have started taking their pension savings but want to keep paying into their plan. The increase means you can pay in more than you previously could without facing a tax charge. The minimum tapered annual allowance rose from £4,000 to £10,000, meaning high earners can pay more into their plans than before without facing a tax charge. It affects people whose ‘adjusted income’ is more than £260,000 (previously it was £240,000). You can find out more about pension allowances on MoneyHelper. Finally, let’s look at the pension lifetime allowance. This is the total amount you can have in pension savings during your lifetime – across all pension plans – before an additional tax charge applies. The standard lifetime allowance is £1,073,100. As of 6 April 2023, no-one needed to pay the additional tax charge if they went over the lifetime allowance. The government has now said the lifetime allowance will be totally abolished from 6 April 2024. Nice googling It was actually Jeeves who told me this one rather than Google.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 21, 2023 11:21:14 GMT
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Post by gawa on Dec 21, 2023 11:39:56 GMT
Would love mrcoke opinion on this.
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 21, 2023 13:30:39 GMT
To be fair, most countries around the world had debt ballooning in 2020 to prevent the entire collapse of their economies from Covid restrictions. Even prudent Germany added 10% to its ratio. The previous decade is a better yard stick.
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Post by gawa on Dec 21, 2023 13:43:46 GMT
To be fair, most countries around the world had debt ballooning in 2020 to prevent the entire collapse of their economies from Covid restrictions. Even prudent Germany added 10% to its ratio. The previous decade is a better yard stick. 10% added on is nothing. The tories have ballooned debt by 300% nearly in 13 years. And everything's got worse too. What I don't understand is articles like this though in the telegraph in September this year - www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/02/the-conservative-party-champion-fiscal-responsibility/ Less than what? The 2 trillion they've added to it? Is this not a summary of the last 13 years? Except nobody knows whose pockets our moneys went into because it certainly hasn't been used to improve anything. Ironic considering the debt they've ran the country into in just over a decade. Have the tories not borrowed the country's ways into hardship? Why does a "reputable" newspaper publish such nonsense and not address the elephant in the room about just how much debt the tories have plunged the country into.
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Post by adri2008 on Dec 21, 2023 14:38:54 GMT
To be fair, most countries around the world had debt ballooning in 2020 to prevent the entire collapse of their economies from Covid restrictions. Even prudent Germany added 10% to its ratio. The previous decade is a better yard stick. 10% added on is nothing. The tories have ballooned debt by 300% nearly in 13 years. And everything's got worse too. I meant an increase of 10% in the ratio - i.e 58% to 68%. France went from 97% to 114% in that period as a comparison. Not arguing about the figures previous to that - just saying that the period 2020-2023 shows a huge increase in public debt for most countries finances so isn't a great basis when most governments around the world (left, centre and right) were the same thing to varying degrees.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 21, 2023 15:33:38 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 21, 2023 17:22:26 GMT
Would love mrcoke opinion on this. I don't think you would really but here goes: 1. As has already been pointed out most countries saw a huge increase in debt as a result of the pandemic. Then some nations have been affected more or less than others by the energy price inflation as a result of the war in Ukraine; some energy producing countries like North America have actually gained. 2. So how bad is the UK government debt? I leave it for you to judge: www.visualcapitalist.com/government-debt-by-country-advanced-economies/Of the G7 economies only Germany has lower government debt as a % GDP than the UK 3. If Japan has debt of 200% GDP, how important is it? Well that depends on who the debt is owed to. Most debt is owed to financial institutions. If you have a pension it is quite probable it is owed a lot of money by the government. So the nation owes a lot of its debt to itself for future generations to pay back. What matters more to me is balance of trade/Investment, I.e. how much money is leaving the country each year. Functioning with a huge trade deficit means we are gradually getting poorer. The UK trade deficit with Germany has been running at £0.5 billion per week.
oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/gbr/partner/deu4. How bad are the Tories? Very bad. Were the Labour governments better? No . Government debt doubled under the last Labour government. Putting it mildly the UK economy has been a basket case since the Thatcher years. Generally speaking most UK governments incur more debt than their predecessors in recent decades. www.statista.com/statistics/282647/government-debt-uk/5. Why is the British economy so poor, cannot afford proper public services, and in terms of GDP per head slipping down the table over the decades? Why for most of the 20th century did equality improve in the UK until the 1970s? I could post at long length again on that subject, but intead refer you to my post on the Brexit thread about the damage done to the UK economy during membership of the EEC and EU. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7952442/thread
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Post by 828492 on Dec 21, 2023 18:59:47 GMT
Would love mrcoke opinion on this. I don't think you would really but here goes: 1. As has already been pointed out most countries saw a huge increase in debt as a result of the pandemic. Then some nations have been affected more or less than others by the energy price inflation as a result of the war in Ukraine; some energy producing countries like North America have actually gained. 2. So how bad is the UK government debt? I leave it for you to judge: www.visualcapitalist.com/government-debt-by-country-advanced-economies/Of the G7 economies only Germany has lower government debt as a % GDP than the UK 3. If Japan has debt of 200% GDP, how important is it? Well that depends on who the debt is owed to. Most debt is owed to financial institutions. If you have a pension it is quite probable it is owed a lot of money by the government. So the nation owes a lot of its debt to itself for future generations to pay back. What matters more to me is balance of trade/Investment, I.e. how much money is leaving the country each year. Functioning with a huge trade deficit means we are gradually getting poorer. The UK trade deficit with Germany has been running at £0.5 billion per week.
oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/gbr/partner/deu4. How bad are the Tories? Very bad. Were the Labour governments better? No . Government debt doubled under the last Labour government. Putting it mildly the UK economy has been a basket case since the Thatcher years. Generally speaking most UK governments incur more debt than their predecessors in recent decades. www.statista.com/statistics/282647/government-debt-uk/5. Why is the British economy so poor, cannot afford proper public services, and in terms of GDP per head slipping down the table over the decades? Why for most of the 20th century did equality improve in the UK until the 1970s? I could post at long length again on that subject, but intead refer you to my post on the Brexit thread about the damage done to the UK economy during membership of the EEC and EU. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7952442/threadRe your point 4. I think you mean, ‘..the UK economy has been a basket case BECAUSE of the Thatcher years.’
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 21, 2023 19:01:59 GMT
Big Nige Talking Pints GB News pub NOW!!
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Post by 828492 on Dec 21, 2023 19:04:36 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 21, 2023 19:51:33 GMT
I don't think you would really but here goes: 1. As has already been pointed out most countries saw a huge increase in debt as a result of the pandemic. Then some nations have been affected more or less than others by the energy price inflation as a result of the war in Ukraine; some energy producing countries like North America have actually gained. 2. So how bad is the UK government debt? I leave it for you to judge: www.visualcapitalist.com/government-debt-by-country-advanced-economies/Of the G7 economies only Germany has lower government debt as a % GDP than the UK 3. If Japan has debt of 200% GDP, how important is it? Well that depends on who the debt is owed to. Most debt is owed to financial institutions. If you have a pension it is quite probable it is owed a lot of money by the government. So the nation owes a lot of its debt to itself for future generations to pay back. What matters more to me is balance of trade/Investment, I.e. how much money is leaving the country each year. Functioning with a huge trade deficit means we are gradually getting poorer. The UK trade deficit with Germany has been running at £0.5 billion per week.
oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/gbr/partner/deu4. How bad are the Tories? Very bad. Were the Labour governments better? No . Government debt doubled under the last Labour government. Putting it mildly the UK economy has been a basket case since the Thatcher years. Generally speaking most UK governments incur more debt than their predecessors in recent decades. www.statista.com/statistics/282647/government-debt-uk/5. Why is the British economy so poor, cannot afford proper public services, and in terms of GDP per head slipping down the table over the decades? Why for most of the 20th century did equality improve in the UK until the 1970s? I could post at long length again on that subject, but intead refer you to my post on the Brexit thread about the damage done to the UK economy during membership of the EEC and EU. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7952442/threadRe your point 4. I think you mean, ‘..the UK economy has been a basket case BECAUSE of the Thatcher years.’ I don't believe so. As this chart shows: www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyp/pn2Prior to the UK joining the EEC the economic growth fluctuated between 1% and 7% pa and then declined after joining. But it recovered strongly during the Thatcher years peaking at 5%, one of the highest ever growth rates in Europe since the UK joined the EEC. After Thatcher's tenure the UK economic growth has steadily declined and since 2000 and the creation of the EU has built up a huge annual trade deficit making the country poorer. I believe the decline has been because EU membership has inhibited UK trade growth with the rest of the world due to the EU customs barrier. Now that the UK has left the EU I believe trade will grow much faster.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2023 20:29:06 GMT
GDP, the shittest but simplest measure of economic growth. When it rises, it’s really just a sign that the wealthy have had a nice year.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 23, 2023 17:07:09 GMT
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 23, 2023 19:19:29 GMT
It's hard to tell what is parody anymore, surely this can't be real... Or can it?
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Post by henry on Dec 23, 2023 23:28:40 GMT
GDP, the shittest but simplest measure of economic growth. When it rises, it’s really just a sign that the wealthy have had a nice year. And when it falls the lefties moan that country is doing wank compared to the world / g20 / g7 / eu / blah blah
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 23, 2023 23:29:23 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Dec 24, 2023 3:38:41 GMT
Would love mrcoke opinion on this. I don't think you would really but here goes: 1. As has already been pointed out most countries saw a huge increase in debt as a result of the pandemic. Then some nations have been affected more or less than others by the energy price inflation as a result of the war in Ukraine; some energy producing countries like North America have actually gained. 2. So how bad is the UK government debt? I leave it for you to judge: www.visualcapitalist.com/government-debt-by-country-advanced-economies/Of the G7 economies only Germany has lower government debt as a % GDP than the UK 3. If Japan has debt of 200% GDP, how important is it? Well that depends on who the debt is owed to. Most debt is owed to financial institutions. If you have a pension it is quite probable it is owed a lot of money by the government. So the nation owes a lot of its debt to itself for future generations to pay back. What matters more to me is balance of trade/Investment, I.e. how much money is leaving the country each year. Functioning with a huge trade deficit means we are gradually getting poorer. The UK trade deficit with Germany has been running at £0.5 billion per week.
oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/gbr/partner/deu4. How bad are the Tories? Very bad. Were the Labour governments better? No . Government debt doubled under the last Labour government. Putting it mildly the UK economy has been a basket case since the Thatcher years. Generally speaking most UK governments incur more debt than their predecessors in recent decades. www.statista.com/statistics/282647/government-debt-uk/5. Why is the British economy so poor, cannot afford proper public services, and in terms of GDP per head slipping down the table over the decades? Why for most of the 20th century did equality improve in the UK until the 1970s? I could post at long length again on that subject, but intead refer you to my post on the Brexit thread about the damage done to the UK economy during membership of the EEC and EU. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7952442/thread1 and 2: I agree with Civil, probably for different reasons that Debt to GDP is misleading A better measure is Debt to GDP Ratio. Debt-to-GDP ratio compares a country’s debt to its annual economic output. When you look at comparative Countries its easy to see why the UK Economy is a mess Government Debt Ratio as % of GDP Croatia 687.99% Greece 237.13% Japan 217.61% United Kingdom 186.48%Singapore 153.80% Spain 135.82% United States 120.37% France 116.55% Belgium 109.22% Iceland 96.87% San Marino 95.12% Austria 94.32% Hungary 86.91% Bahamas 86.19% Slovak Republic 79.25% Australia 70.18% Ireland 65.40% Canada 64.04% New Zealand 50.99% South Korea 49.16% Lithuania 48.91% Sweden 40.66% Estonia 23.67% Switzerland 20.30 www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/debt-to-gdp-ratio3. You use Japan as a comparator, but it's not About 70% of Japan's Debt is owed to Bank of Japan the remainder to Japanese Banks. Japan doesn't borrow on the International Market A comfortable position which Japanese Government can control About 25% of UK Debt is owed to Bank of England. The majority due to Quantitative Easing, a polite way of saying Printing Money, during Covid The remaining 75% is owed to International Banks, Pension Funds and Investors who monitor closely what actions UK Government make and react negatively when they do stupid things as we saw under Truss. A very uncomfortable position which UK Government has no control of 4. I agree with most of that but you omit that Thatcher "sold off the family silver" the proceeds of which went to the Treasury therefore no borrowing requirement. Of course these assets, formerly Public Utilities are now Monopolies generating Billions of Profits for Foreign Countries and Investors Another disastrous Thatcher decision was to Grant Oil Companies Licences to exploit North Sea Oil and Gas. At the same time Norway retained ownership of its Oil and Gas and invested the profits into a Sovereign Fund one of the biggest in the World. Making Norwegians per Capita one if not the wealthiest in the World 5. I didn't bother correcting your previous post but as you have regurgitated it. In 1950 GDP per Capita was about one third higher than the average of the original EEC 6 Having twice been refused permission by De Gaulle in the 1960s to join EEC, UK finally joined in 1973 as "the sick man of Europe. At the time of joining GDP per capita in UK had shrunk from 33% above to 10% below the average of the EEC 6 It has remained in that relative position ever since
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Post by essexstokey on Dec 24, 2023 6:25:44 GMT
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Post by essexstokey on Dec 24, 2023 7:28:15 GMT
Disabled and social care is totally broken in this tory run country were the Disabled are expected to care for yourself and totally abandoned each section is independent and does not communicate with each other The same is happening in the nhs
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Post by essexstokey on Dec 24, 2023 10:16:38 GMT
It's Christmas tomorrow think about those tory Britain have let down and next year make a new year's rm resolution to rid these parasites from power
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Post by essexstokey on Dec 24, 2023 11:42:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2023 12:10:16 GMT
I think that it’s really impressive how stupid some people are. Say stupid things with your friends. Act professional at your job. Hardly difficult.
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