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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 7:37:38 GMT
No. It isn’t ok for those few people to abuse the system. But a far bigger problem is the rich tax avoidance. Also, take someone who may have worked a little, cash in hand, claimed benefits, could have worked more, perhaps did a stint in prison - when they retire, should they be left to die homeless in the street? Should they be given a home? Should they have food to eat? What would you do with them? It costs less to society to house them and give them a miserly sum to live off than to abandon them. There has to be some balance. The problem with our society is that money equals an easy life and plenty of opportunities you don’t have to work for. The poorer you are, the harder you have to work for everything. In order to make society more equal, we must reduce the gap between the richest and the poorest to create more of a level playing field. Equal opportunities so the best can prosper regardless of upbringing and background. That can only happen by taxing the seriously wealthy properly. Even taxing them as much as I am taxed would be a start. Then we can improve public services and education and opportunities and actually level up opportunities regardless as to whether you are a working class lad from stoke on trent or born into the aristocracy and heading to Eton. If people are given opportunities they generally won’t choose to do nothing with their life and scrounge off the state. Because they can see a better life for themselves. It is only when that better life looks impossible that people give up and do nothing. So you can tackle both issues in one go. Tax the rich and make their life a tiny bit harder, and use the money to provide opportunities for the poor to massively improve their chances for a better life. Tax avoidance is not illegal. Chances are most people on this thread do it. You might, I certainly don't.
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Post by stiggerstackle on Oct 19, 2023 7:38:22 GMT
Very true - it's just classic deflection yet again. We are a 1st world nation - our citizens SHOULD be able to access Sky / have mobile phones / get their fucking nails done and hair cut!!! I accept completely that a minority of our population has their priorities wrong, and there are cases where people need to take personal responsibility, but it is the government who has created the abject poverty that we are seeing, the number of kids sleeping on floors, the rise of foodbanks, the rise in employed people being unable to afford to pay bills above and beyond the basics for survival. It is our government that has created this situation, whilst privately profiteering for themselves and their mates, they have screwed the 'have nots' into the ground and made our living standards the worst they have been for decades. A 1st world country... So what happens if those working think “sod that I’ll have some of what they’re having.” down tools and choose to live off benefits. What would get done? The country would grind to a halt especially when not choosing to work becomes a generational thing that’s passed down. As I said previously it’s not all about the money it’s about encouraging people to work and develop a work ethic. If that doesn’t happen we’ll get more people not wanting to work and us having to pick up the tab. We shouldn’t just dismiss those who can work that choose to live off benefits as insignificant or an over reaction just because the money involved isn’t as high as that being lost through tax evasion. That’s certainly not right but at least Sunak works (and this isnt me saying he’s a great guy). Just because it’s not important to some because they’d rather target the rich because they hate the tory party or people of wealth (I’m certainly not one). I’ve just always been bought up with the attitude that you work hard and that you pay your way in life. Obvioisly that’s wrong in some people’s eyes and they think it’s ok for people who cant be bothered to get similar financial reward. Completely and utterly missed my point. I clearly said a proportion of the population have their priorities wrong - and for them I agree with what you say - but for the MAJORITY of the population, there is an undeniable and growing trend where for working people, conditions are getting worse - WORKING people can't pay their fucking bills and it is down to the government purely and simply. The majority of the country, people like (presumably you) and me, would never dream to think 'sod that, I'll have some of what they're having' as you put it, because I was brought up to have a work ethic and to achieve things in life. And who in their right minds would want what they have? It's still fucking shit, it's just free (to them).
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Post by henry on Oct 19, 2023 7:44:25 GMT
Tax avoidance is not illegal. Chances are most people on this thread do it. You might, I certainly don't. You’ve never had a cash isa?
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 7:45:40 GMT
No. It isn’t ok for those few people to abuse the system. But a far bigger problem is the rich tax avoidance. Also, take someone who may have worked a little, cash in hand, claimed benefits, could have worked more, perhaps did a stint in prison - when they retire, should they be left to die homeless in the street? Should they be given a home? Should they have food to eat? What would you do with them? It costs less to society to house them and give them a miserly sum to live off than to abandon them. There has to be some balance. The problem with our society is that money equals an easy life and plenty of opportunities you don’t have to work for. The poorer you are, the harder you have to work for everything. In order to make society more equal, we must reduce the gap between the richest and the poorest to create more of a level playing field. Equal opportunities so the best can prosper regardless of upbringing and background. That can only happen by taxing the seriously wealthy properly. Even taxing them as much as I am taxed would be a start. Then we can improve public services and education and opportunities and actually level up opportunities regardless as to whether you are a working class lad from stoke on trent or born into the aristocracy and heading to Eton. If people are given opportunities they generally won’t choose to do nothing with their life and scrounge off the state. Because they can see a better life for themselves. It is only when that better life looks impossible that people give up and do nothing. So you can tackle both issues in one go. Tax the rich and make their life a tiny bit harder, and use the money to provide opportunities for the poor to massively improve their chances for a better life. Tax avoidance is not illegal. Chances are most people on this thread do it. No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated.
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Post by henry on Oct 19, 2023 7:52:26 GMT
Tax avoidance is not illegal. Chances are most people on this thread do it. No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated. If Sunak is earning a wage he will be paying tax.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 7:53:33 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 7:54:57 GMT
No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated. If Sunak is earning a wage he will be paying tax. I think it's fair to say that you're completely missing the point Oggy made.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 19, 2023 7:57:45 GMT
So what happens if those working think “sod that I’ll have some of what they’re having.” down tools and choose to live off benefits. What would get done? The country would grind to a halt especially when not choosing to work becomes a generational thing that’s passed down. As I said previously it’s not all about the money it’s about encouraging people to work and develop a work ethic. If that doesn’t happen we’ll get more people not wanting to work and us having to pick up the tab. We shouldn’t just dismiss those who can work that choose to live off benefits as insignificant or an over reaction just because the money involved isn’t as high as that being lost through tax evasion. That’s certainly not right but at least Sunak works (and this isnt me saying he’s a great guy). Just because it’s not important to some because they’d rather target the rich because they hate the tory party or people of wealth (I’m certainly not one). I’ve just always been bought up with the attitude that you work hard and that you pay your way in life. Obvioisly that’s wrong in some people’s eyes and they think it’s ok for people who cant be bothered to get similar financial reward. The simple answer is you can't just down tools and sign on. And it's been like that for years. Again, you're turning your anger on the wrong people. Well from recent experience and conversations I can categorically confirm it’s rife. We have kids from the estates wearing Canada Goose jackets whose parents are on benefits. It’s feeding its way into the next generation too. Some of the bigger families are taking in excess of 2k a month home without lifting a finger.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2023 7:58:29 GMT
No it isn’t illegal. Because the rich people who run the country want a legal way for them to not pay as much tax as someone like me who has very little capital but a good income. They make it impossible for me to avoid tax but Rishi Sunak can and he is extremely rich. It is completely wrong and immoral and should be better regulated. If Sunak is earning a wage he will be paying tax. “ According to the summary of his tax return, Sunak has made £4.8m over the previous three tax years. Only about £410,000 of that came from his MP and ministerial salary, however, with almost everything else coming from interest, dividends and capital gains on his US-based investments. ” “ In total the prime minister paid just over £1m in UK tax over the course of the three years, giving him an effective tax rate of 22%.” My effective rate of tax for the last tax year was 30% plus 5% NI. I did not make anywhere close to £4.8m or £410k salary. When I earn about a quarter of the income he does, why does he pay a lower percentage of tax?
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Post by henry on Oct 19, 2023 7:58:32 GMT
If Sunak is earning a wage he will be paying tax. I think it's fair to say that you're completely missing the point Oggy made. I miss no point.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 19, 2023 8:04:08 GMT
There are people that have worked hard all their lives, lose a job and find themselves on the streets. Is that fair to not ask for and get help? Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS.
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Post by henry on Oct 19, 2023 8:08:56 GMT
There are people that have worked hard all their lives, lose a job and find themselves on the streets. Is that fair to not ask for and get help? Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. Huddy knows the type of person we are talking about. He’s trying to deflect the conversation because he knows he’s losing the argument.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 19, 2023 8:10:06 GMT
Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. Huddy knows the type of person we are talking about. He’s trying to deflect the conversation because he knows he’s losing the argument. That’s why I like to play with a straight bat
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 8:13:04 GMT
The simple answer is you can't just down tools and sign on. And it's been like that for years. Again, you're turning your anger on the wrong people. Well from recent experience and conversations I can categorically confirm it’s rife. We have kids from the estates wearing Canada Goose jackets whose parents are on benefits. It’s feeding its way into the next generation too. Some of the bigger families are taking in excess of 2k a month home without lifting a finger. You mean they are claiming and receiving Child support? Do you think they are siphoning it off in to a Cayman Islands account?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 8:14:20 GMT
Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. Huddy knows the type of person we are talking about. He’s trying to deflect the conversation because he knows he’s losing the argument. In fairness mate you don't seem to have a clue what you're on about.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 8:15:47 GMT
There are people that have worked hard all their lives, lose a job and find themselves on the streets. Is that fair to not ask for and get help? Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. For the LAST time it is now virtually impossible to claim any kind of benefit if you are classed as "fit for work" Is this difficult for you to comprehend mate?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 19, 2023 8:27:03 GMT
Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. For the LAST time it is now virtually impossible to claim any kind of benefit if you are classed as "fit for work" Is this difficult for you to comprehend mate? And if you're fit to work then you should do some work and be of use to society. Not difficult to comprehend.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 19, 2023 8:59:14 GMT
Not at all because they’ve paid into the pot re national insurance and fully deserve support when they fall on hard times and Im pretty sure due to there working mentality they’ll be actively looking for work too because that’s what there natural instinct is to do. I’ve met people that’s happened too that have taken lesser paid jobs because they’ve got pride and don’t want to scrounge. I’m talking about those that have been fit to work all there lives but have chosen not too. Those that laugh at you and I and call us “mugs” (from experience) because they’d rather claim benefits and lead the easy life and still expect to be at the front of the que at the NHS. For the LAST time it is now virtually impossible to claim any kind of benefit if you are classed as "fit for work" Is this difficult for you to comprehend mate? The manipulation you talk about re tax evasion you think that doesn’t happen on the estates then? It’s exactly the same just on a smaller scale but one works and fiddled the other doesn’t. I prefer to base my knowledge on experiences I’ve actually seen and witnessed with my own eyes.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 9:02:33 GMT
For the LAST time it is now virtually impossible to claim any kind of benefit if you are classed as "fit for work" Is this difficult for you to comprehend mate? The manipulation you talk about re tax evasion you think that doesn’t happen on the estates then? It’s exactly the same just on a smaller scale but one works and fiddled the other doesn’t. I prefer to base my knowledge on experiences I’ve actually seen and witnessed with my own eyes. If you're referring to evading tax, then no I don't. It's not the same at all is it, be honest.
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Post by stokeson on Oct 19, 2023 9:33:48 GMT
For the LAST time it is now virtually impossible to claim any kind of benefit if you are classed as "fit for work" Is this difficult for you to comprehend mate? And if you're fit to work then you should do some work and be of use to society. Not difficult to comprehend. A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later.....
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 19, 2023 9:36:48 GMT
So what happens if those working think “sod that I’ll have some of what they’re having.” down tools and choose to live off benefits. What would get done? The country would grind to a halt especially when not choosing to work becomes a generational thing that’s passed down. As I said previously it’s not all about the money it’s about encouraging people to work and develop a work ethic. If that doesn’t happen we’ll get more people not wanting to work and us having to pick up the tab. We shouldn’t just dismiss those who can work that choose to live off benefits as insignificant or an over reaction just because the money involved isn’t as high as that being lost through tax evasion. That’s certainly not right but at least Sunak works (and this isnt me saying he’s a great guy). Just because it’s not important to some because they’d rather target the rich because they hate the tory party or people of wealth (I’m certainly not one). I’ve just always been bought up with the attitude that you work hard and that you pay your way in life. Obvioisly that’s wrong in some people’s eyes and they think it’s ok for people who cant be bothered to get similar financial reward. Completely and utterly missed my point. I clearly said a proportion of the population have their priorities wrong - and for them I agree with what you say - but for the MAJORITY of the population, there is an undeniable and growing trend where for working people, conditions are getting worse - WORKING people can't pay their fucking bills and it is down to the government purely and simply. The majority of the country, people like (presumably you) and me, would never dream to think 'sod that, I'll have some of what they're having' as you put it, because I was brought up to have a work ethic and to achieve things in life. And who in their right minds would want what they have? It's still fucking shit, it's just free (to them). People genuinely scoff at those living in poverty (often working poverty I might add) even having a smart phone. Without any understanding about how difficult/impossible it is to even access some services without one........
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Post by stokeson on Oct 19, 2023 9:38:36 GMT
Completely and utterly missed my point. I clearly said a proportion of the population have their priorities wrong - and for them I agree with what you say - but for the MAJORITY of the population, there is an undeniable and growing trend where for working people, conditions are getting worse - WORKING people can't pay their fucking bills and it is down to the government purely and simply. The majority of the country, people like (presumably you) and me, would never dream to think 'sod that, I'll have some of what they're having' as you put it, because I was brought up to have a work ethic and to achieve things in life. And who in their right minds would want what they have? It's still fucking shit, it's just free (to them). People genuinely scoff at people living in poverty (often working poverty I might add) even having a smart phone. Without any understanding about how difficult/impossible it is to even access some services without one........ Proof of a work search being one......
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 19, 2023 9:39:45 GMT
And if you're fit to work then you should do some work and be of use to society. Not difficult to comprehend. A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... My arguement isn't about the fit to work screening process. Its about if you're fit to work then you should. If the screening process is shyte, which I suspect it probably is, then your concerns should be targeted there. But the principle remains. If fit to work then work because it benefits all collective society. And sorry to hear your pals story. That sounds extremely unjust and I understand your point in that regard 🙏
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 19, 2023 9:41:11 GMT
And if you're fit to work then you should do some work and be of use to society. Not difficult to comprehend. A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... My now deceased brother-in-law was pretty much bed ridden and had just started to be peg fed due to chronic MS. My in-laws had to physically take him to be assessed, they wouldn't even come out themselves to assess him at Scotia Heights: Mental health, Neuro-disability, Physical disabilities specialist nursing home.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 19, 2023 9:45:19 GMT
A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... My now deceased brother-in-law was pretty much bed ridden and had just started to be peg fed due to chronic MS. My in-laws had to physically take him to be assessed, they wouldn't even come out themselves to assess him at Scotia Heights: Mental health, Neuro-disability, Physical disabilities specialist nursing home.
Absolutely disgusting. But nothing surprises me anymore about how bad this govt have let things get. All our systems are defunct. Justice, planning system, nhs, border control and on and on. We're in a bad state all over really.
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Post by stokeson on Oct 19, 2023 9:46:09 GMT
A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... My now deceased brother-in-law was pretty much bed ridden and had just started to be peg fed due to chronic MS. My in-laws had to physically take him to be assessed, they wouldn't even come out themselves to assess him at Scotia Heights: Mental health, Neuro-disability, Physical disabilities specialist nursing home.
I dont know the truth of this but was told by a Dhss insider the assessers recived 40.00 bonus for every claiment they passed as "fit for work". A disgrace if true...
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 19, 2023 9:54:47 GMT
My now deceased brother-in-law was pretty much bed ridden and had just started to be peg fed due to chronic MS. My in-laws had to physically take him to be assessed, they wouldn't even come out themselves to assess him at Scotia Heights: Mental health, Neuro-disability, Physical disabilities specialist nursing home.
I dont know the truth of this but was told by a Dhss insider the assessers recived 40.00 bonus for every claiment they passed as "fit for work". A disgrace if true... Wouldn't surprise me but I really hope that isn't true. Shocking if so.
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2023 10:14:22 GMT
The problem is most jobs are being replaced with automation and robots.
If someone told you 40 years ago that mos high Street shops would be gone, they'd be replaced mostly with one company called amazon, the warehouses would use robots to do alot of the manual labour and drones would be used to start to deliver parcels (announced being trialed in uk City this year). Then you'd sort of expect in 40 years that we'd all benefit from these advances.
What we have instead though is the owner of said company being the richest man in the world. And every job he replaces with a robot or automation only he benefits from and sees the profit.
So a retail industry which once employed loads of people is now replaced and monopolised by one company who sets up businesses across the world and then uses tax dodging tricks to evade paying their taxes.
And as a result inequality grows because most of the profits which were shared across multiple businesses employing loads of people are mostly going to one business who replaces people with robots and computers.
And who benefits from that? One person. And who enables it? Our governments.
The technological advances we've had means there's less need for manual work compared to years gone by. There's less jobs in those sectors. And one person benefits hugely from this and the rest of us just have to accept it and "get a job".
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 10:17:14 GMT
And if you're fit to work then you should do some work and be of use to society. Not difficult to comprehend. A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... And your friend is one of thousands who have suffered the same fate. It's outrageous.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 19, 2023 10:22:48 GMT
A few years ago a friend of mine was suffering cronic fatiuge related to Hep-c. Being self-employed (paying full tax for 50+ years) he applied for benefits and was assessed as fit to work. He died four weeks later..... My now deceased brother-in-law was pretty much bed ridden and had just started to be peg fed due to chronic MS. My in-laws had to physically take him to be assessed, they wouldn't even come out themselves to assess him at Scotia Heights: Mental health, Neuro-disability, Physical disabilities specialist nursing home.
I knew your BIL pretty well back in the day. And I heard this horror stroy too. My best mate visited hime there. Ironically my best mate is now suffering with untreatable cerebral ataxia and for the last 9 months has been "surviving" only on SSP. I get so fucking angry about this, he was a top level nurse for over 30 years, always paid his stamp etc....
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