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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 20, 2023 16:21:01 GMT
Perhaps we could start making things. Radical, I know. But makes total sense. Exactly. But we keep upping corp tax etc and making it impossible for British industry. This isn't a Conservative govt. That disappeared quite some time ago. This is a very conservative government. The party exists to plunder tax payer funds and give those funds to their mates/fat cat shareholders at the expense of workers and consumers. This government has had more success at that than any other. We need to transform our energy sector by making gas and oil redundant, and we need huge incentives for businesses to make things here. Businesses being based here generates wealth, jobs and grows the economy. Allowing foreign governments and non-doms to own things here reduces wealth and destroys the economy as they just extract money and take it outside the country rather than keeping it here and investing in the future here. |
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Post by superjw on Sept 20, 2023 16:21:44 GMT
I remain (happy) to be convinced that electric cars are the answer, but those saying we should stick with petrol are the same ones complaining because prices are going up again because the Saudis and Russia are restricting output. Electric cars aren’t the answer, people people are deluding themselves to think they are on a world scale. There are plenty of facts now that show they cause way more environmental damage upfront before anyone has ever driven them, yes there’s an offset against the fuel used when driven but it takes a lot of driving before one does - for most, cars on an average 3 year finance will never offset the damage already done. Hybrids strike a balance a bit, as in the full hybrids, but hydrogen is the answer but that will take years. Keeping the modern petrol engines that are cleaner and phasing out diesel is a good solution for now |
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Post by AlliG on Sept 20, 2023 16:32:38 GMT
We'll get to 2035 only to kick the can even further down the line 😞 All to easy to chuck out words that sound appealing and yet never dedicate the infrastructure/resources needed for it to happen. I'm no fan of this govt however I do think Sunak has a point. The cost of all these measures in the here and now is crippling. And the burden is mostly falling on people with limited funds. People are genuinely scared given we are in a huge cost of living crisis. Of course we need to get moving on it all but is hammering the already hammered even further in order to achieve it morally the right thing to do. It has to be up for scrutiny and debate at the very least. Pretty sure many millions didn't vote to be made destitute. Who set the 2025 and 2030 targets? Oh yes. The Conservative Government who have been in power for the last 13 years. So now there is an election coming up in the near future, that same Government is looking to push those dates back and expects to be rewarded at the ballot box.  |
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Post by superjw on Sept 20, 2023 16:38:40 GMT
I think alot of people on here and in general cannot afford (me included) electric vehicles and heat pumps in their homes so something has to give somewhere, surely cannot force this on people. This is precisely it, when you take the emotion out of it there’s a really simple bit of maths involved. If the public who already can’t afford to live can’t afford these changes, there’s no point carrying on blindly into it all and something has to give. Thing is, people think we are the sole cause of the environmental issues, fact is we are not and historically have made pretty much more progress than any other nation in cleaning ourselves up. We are a tiny contributor in terms of the other countries and this move won’t exactly kill the world tomorrow. I welcome the move personally, there’s other things we as a country can do without piling even more on its people, helping to innovate is a great area.l and focusing on laying the foundations for a future country. A petrol hybrid is all I can afford and that’s a huge stretch Definitely can’t afford to rip out my boiler 7 bins? Christ the 4 I’ve got have nowhere to go 😂 |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Sept 20, 2023 17:07:58 GMT
One school of thought is that China makes most of our shyte. Including most of all the components needed for this green revolution. Our govt is handing out billions upon billions in green subsidies which is effectively all to the benefit of China. When you mull that round your noggin for a bit you can almost conclude we must all be bloody stupid. We are indirectly pouring billions if not trillions over time into china's back pockets. We need a better plan I reckon. And the kicker is in order for the Chinese to meet our green demands they are building dozens and dozens of coal plants. We are literally hanging ourselves. Its crazy. Perhaps we could start making things. Radical, I know. But makes total sense. Who would want to make things in the UK? Companies already fucked over by Brexit finding that critical policies are changing on a whim as the Tories scramble around in a pathetic demonstration of short-termism for political gain. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 20, 2023 17:18:19 GMT
I'm no fan of this govt however I do think Sunak has a point. The cost of all these measures in the here and now is crippling. And the burden is mostly falling on people with limited funds. People are genuinely scared given we are in a huge cost of living crisis. Of course we need to get moving on it all but is hammering the already hammered even further in order to achieve it morally the right thing to do. It has to be up for scrutiny and debate at the very least. Pretty sure many millions didn't vote to be made destitute. Who set the 2025 and 2030 targets? Oh yes. The Conservative Government who have been in power for the last 13 years. So now there is an election coming up in the near future, that same Government is looking to push those dates back and expects to be rewarded at the ballot box. Never over-estimate the electorate 😂 |
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Post by elystokie on Sept 20, 2023 17:23:00 GMT
I'm no fan of this govt however I do think Sunak has a point. The cost of all these measures in the here and now is crippling. And the burden is mostly falling on people with limited funds. People are genuinely scared given we are in a huge cost of living crisis. Of course we need to get moving on it all but is hammering the already hammered even further in order to achieve it morally the right thing to do. It has to be up for scrutiny and debate at the very least. Pretty sure many millions didn't vote to be made destitute. Who set the 2025 and 2030 targets? Oh yes. The Conservative Government who have been in power for the last 13 years. So now there is an election coming up in the near future, that same Government is looking to push those dates back and expects to be rewarded at the ballot box. There was a poll I saw (I think on here) that showed climate change is second only to the cost of living crisis among issues at the forefront of people's minds in the UK. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 20, 2023 17:23:20 GMT
Perhaps we could start making things. Radical, I know. But makes total sense. Who would want to make things in the UK? Companies already fucked over by Brexit finding that critical policies are changing on a whim as the Tories scramble around in a pathetic demonstration of short-termism for political gain. It will be interesting to see over the next few days exactly how many of the proposed changes Starmer and his lickspittle sidekicks promise to reverse I predict very few if any No political party ever has had the balls to tell the people on the street the true cost in there pockets of the green agenda Maybe hopefully this may be the start of the debate of the great green con Oh and by the way I’m not a climate denier |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 20, 2023 17:29:06 GMT
Who set the 2025 and 2030 targets? Oh yes. The Conservative Government who have been in power for the last 13 years. So now there is an election coming up in the near future, that same Government is looking to push those dates back and expects to be rewarded at the ballot box. There was a poll I saw (I think on here) that showed climate change is second only to the cost of living crisis among issues at the forefront of people's minds in the UK. I don't believe that for a second. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 20, 2023 17:35:39 GMT
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Post by knype on Sept 20, 2023 17:38:37 GMT
In comparison to where we are now obviously, or perhaps not for you. Which year are you comparing now too? 40's, 50's etc etc? |
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Post by knype on Sept 20, 2023 17:40:10 GMT
Anyway I'm out of here didn't want start getting into debates/arguments etc i will just go back to reading everyone else's views, much easier. You should post more mate. The more views and opinions the better  As long as certain elements of the board agree or you'll get hounded and accused of being someone else... |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 20, 2023 17:42:23 GMT
Nope, still don't believe it mate, no way do ordinary people care about the climate agenda that much. |
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Post by elystokie on Sept 20, 2023 17:47:27 GMT
There was a poll I saw (I think on here) that showed climate change is second only to the cost of living crisis among issues at the forefront of people's minds in the UK. I don't believe that for a second. There isn't a whole lot I can do about that 🤷🏻 |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 20, 2023 17:48:36 GMT
I don't believe that for a second. There isn't a whole lot I can do about that 🤷🏻 There isn’t a whole lot anyone can do about that mate in all fairness. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 20, 2023 17:55:14 GMT
Who gives a fuck about polls. Common sense. Common sense says Sunak is making a big mistake. Unless your common sense is different to my common sense of course. Sunak is making a big mistake Is that electoral or climate or both ? You may have already have a heat source pump if not Are you in the position in the next six years to pay between 11 - 30 thousand to install one should your current system fail Compared with 2-4 thousand for a new gas boiler I would imagine for the average hard pressed voter sunak has just took one of the biggest worries away from the average household being forced to retro fit a system which simply fails in old builds until at least 2040 |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 20, 2023 18:02:31 GMT
I remain (happy) to be convinced that electric cars are the answer, but those saying we should stick with petrol are the same ones complaining because prices are going up again because the Saudis and Russia are restricting output. Electric cars aren’t the answer, people people are deluding themselves to think they are on a world scale. There are plenty of facts now that show they cause way more environmental damage upfront before anyone has ever driven them, yes there’s an offset against the fuel used when driven but it takes a lot of driving before one does - for most, cars on an average 3 year finance will never offset the damage already done. Hybrids strike a balance a bit, as in the full hybrids, but hydrogen is the answer but that will take years. Keeping the modern petrol engines that are cleaner and phasing out diesel is a good solution for now Here's the RAC, who, when asked are EVs better for the environment, concluded "The evidence says they are". www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/ |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 20, 2023 18:12:47 GMT
Electric cars aren’t the answer, people people are deluding themselves to think they are on a world scale. There are plenty of facts now that show they cause way more environmental damage upfront before anyone has ever driven them, yes there’s an offset against the fuel used when driven but it takes a lot of driving before one does - for most, cars on an average 3 year finance will never offset the damage already done. Hybrids strike a balance a bit, as in the full hybrids, but hydrogen is the answer but that will take years. Keeping the modern petrol engines that are cleaner and phasing out diesel is a good solution for now Here's the RAC, who, when asked are EVs better for the environment, concluded "The evidence says they are". www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/There seems very little in this slightly outdated propaganda On the actual costs and even more on the cost both monetary and environmental of the disposal of used batteries Which I would imagine would alter the true environmental cost quite considerably |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 20, 2023 18:21:55 GMT
There seems very little in this slightly outdated propaganda On the actual costs and even more on the cost both monetary and environmental of the disposal of used batteries Which I would imagine would alter the true environmental cost quite considerably It covers it in about the same detail as the other aspects in that piece: "At some point, EV owners will be faced with recycling or replacing the battery – likely to then cost far more than the value of the vehicle. Currently there is no standardised process for recycling batteries, but the benefits make a considerable difference to electric vehicles’ green credentials. Reports8 suggest that material recovery can lead to a reduction in energy of 6-56% and a 23% reduction of greenhouse gases, compared with virgin material production. Car manufacturers have started to act. Volkswagen introduced a scheme in 2019 which it believes will see 97% of all the raw materials used in new EV batteries reused by 2040. A standardised recycling technique and testing of second-use applications for these batteries has the potential to significantly reduce the environmental impact of their production". Chris Skidmore MP (Con) pretty much nails Sunak's decision as a "huge, strategic mistake and that kicking the can down the road just builds in more cost for people in the future. In other words, it'll be more expensive and we won't meet 2050 commitments". |
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Post by Gawa on Sept 20, 2023 18:34:31 GMT
You should post more mate. The more views and opinions the better As long as certain elements of the board agree or you'll get hounded and accused of being someone else... I think that's an admin issue to maybe take up with dave or another admin. I've not hounded anyone to get them banned. More the merrier as far as I'm concerned. |
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Post by superjw on Sept 20, 2023 18:52:52 GMT
Electric cars aren’t the answer, people people are deluding themselves to think they are on a world scale. There are plenty of facts now that show they cause way more environmental damage upfront before anyone has ever driven them, yes there’s an offset against the fuel used when driven but it takes a lot of driving before one does - for most, cars on an average 3 year finance will never offset the damage already done. Hybrids strike a balance a bit, as in the full hybrids, but hydrogen is the answer but that will take years. Keeping the modern petrol engines that are cleaner and phasing out diesel is a good solution for now Here's the RAC, who, when asked are EVs better for the environment, concluded "The evidence says they are". www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/From the study, they concluded that co2 emissions from production are 59% higher than building a standard combustion car. They may say overall they are “greener” but they haven’t said by how much and how many miles needs to be driven before the car achieves this. I’ve read material before that suggests more than 80k miles need to be driven by the car when charged with a typical uk mix of energy before it breaks even and then becomes cleaner than it’s petrol equivalent . So again, thinking about the average user over 3 years - most will not drive the mileage needed to offset the huge amount of co2 to build the car. They would be better off with a petrol vehicle |
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 20, 2023 19:13:05 GMT
Common sense says Sunak is making a big mistake. Unless your common sense is different to my common sense of course. Sunak is making a big mistake Is that electoral or climate or both ? You may have already have a heat source pump if not Are you in the position in the next six years to pay between 11 - 30 thousand to install one should your current system fail Compared with 2-4 thousand for a new gas boiler I would imagine for the average hard pressed voter sunak has just took one of the biggest worries away from the average household being forced to retro fit a system which simply fails in old builds until at least 2040 Both. I cannot afford to buy a house where I live so it isn’t a problem for me at the moment. You are right that installing heat source pumps on target is a big problem. Strangely, there is no law prohibiting any new build properties from having boilers, a sign the government was never committed to this policy and it was always going to U turn. The money lost to covid fraud (willingly handed out to Tory mates) or wasted on HS2. How many heat pumps could that pay for. The money used to pay for Boris Johnson’s legal fees (when he lost the legal battle anyway) could have been used to install many. Just use some of the money for the next white elephant to fund the installation of them for those with wealth less than £1m. The rich can pay themselves. Job done. Imagine how many jobs it would provide for the installations. Loads. Train up willing and asylum seekers who successfully claim asylum here to do it if we don’t have enough people to install them. |
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Post by essexstokey on Sept 20, 2023 19:13:33 GMT
A point on electric cars that I'm not sure many know repairs for a crash etc the car has to be charged down to o and the mechanic's where a special harness costing 10000 + because the cars are direct current meaning anyone would be electrocuted and sucked in
While in hospital a mechanic told me
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Post by Gawa on Sept 20, 2023 19:18:02 GMT
A point on electric cars that I'm not sure many know repairs for a crash etc the car has to be charged down to o and the mechanic's where a special harness costing 10000 + because the cars are direct current meaning anyone would be electrocuted and sucked in While in hospital a mechanic told me Good way for corporations to take over car repairs and charge an arm and a leg knowing no-one else can afford the equipment to do the job. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 20, 2023 19:23:21 GMT
A point on electric cars that I'm not sure many know repairs for a crash etc the car has to be charged down to o and the mechanic's where a special harness costing 10000 + because the cars are direct current meaning anyone would be electrocuted and sucked in While in hospital a mechanic told me Good way for corporations to take over car repairs and charge an arm and a leg knowing no-one else can afford the equipment to do the job. They’ve already done that once with the computerisation of cars You have to plug the bugger in just to find the fault which of course garages have to charge for to cover the cost of the diagnostic equipment |
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Post by essexstokey on Sept 20, 2023 19:24:10 GMT
A point on electric cars that I'm not sure many know repairs for a crash etc the car has to be charged down to o and the mechanic's where a special harness costing 10000 + because the cars are direct current meaning anyone would be electrocuted and sucked in While in hospital a mechanic told me Good way for corporations to take over car repairs and charge an arm and a leg knowing no-one else can afford the equipment to do the job. He was a great artist I suggested diversifying into customising cars |
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 20, 2023 19:24:55 GMT
A point on electric cars that I'm not sure many know repairs for a crash etc the car has to be charged down to o and the mechanic's where a special harness costing 10000 + because the cars are direct current meaning anyone would be electrocuted and sucked in While in hospital a mechanic told me How’s the recovery going |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 20, 2023 20:25:27 GMT
Exactly. But we keep upping corp tax etc and making it impossible for British industry. This isn't a Conservative govt. That disappeared quite some time ago. This is a very conservative government. The party exists to plunder tax payer funds and give those funds to their mates/fat cat shareholders at the expense of workers and consumers. This government has had more success at that than any other. We need to transform our energy sector by making gas and oil redundant, and we need huge incentives for businesses to make things here. Businesses being based here generates wealth, jobs and grows the economy. Allowing foreign governments and non-doms to own things here reduces wealth and destroys the economy as they just extract money and take it outside the country rather than keeping it here and investing in the future here. Lol. A very Conservative govt. Good one 😆 |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 20, 2023 20:29:19 GMT
From the study, they concluded that co2 emissions from production are 59% higher than building a standard combustion car. They may say overall they are “greener” but they haven’t said by how much and how many miles needs to be driven before the car achieves this. I’ve read material before that suggests more than 80k miles need to be driven by the car when charged with a typical uk mix of energy before it breaks even and then becomes cleaner than it’s petrol equivalent . So again, thinking about the average user over 3 years - most will not drive the mileage needed to offset the huge amount of co2 to build the car. They would be better off with a petrol vehicle They don't say that at all. They answer the question in the round. Are they better for the environment? "The evidence says they are". That may not be the case if you only keep your car for three years as you seem to be implying, but most people don't change that regularly and the car continues to exist and do more mileage under new ownership. I've read elsewhere that 80k miles and you're in credit in CO2 terms for the car. My car's on 112,000 at the moment so that'd be 32,000 miles of CO2 saved. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 20, 2023 21:50:12 GMT
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