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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 9:29:22 GMT
The world must be absolutely pissing themselves silly at what this country has become thanks to the Tory party. It's brilliant, now watch Kier shit himself. He will not get into power in 2 years... If ever people wondered why so much of the electorate is daft enough to vote in the people who create this chaos...
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 9:29:58 GMT
Its the sort of really shit slogan I’d associate with that troglodyte of a man. Why is Mogg anywhere near Government? He is such an unscrupulous twat. Think you've answered your own question there
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Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 21, 2022 9:33:18 GMT
Ah, but it's a witch-hunt...biased...or perhaps just...so what, it's Boris, he can do what he likes. It's staggering if they even let him to stand bearing in mind that if he is found in contempt by the committee, he would be expected to resign as a Minister, could be suspended from The Commons or even lose his seat.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 21, 2022 9:48:09 GMT
The world must be absolutely pissing themselves silly at what this country has become thanks to the Tory party. It's brilliant, now watch Kier shit himself. He will not get into power in 2 years... Why on earth would Kier shit himself!? He has systematically risen in popularity and his opponents are sinking like a stone. He’s laughing.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 21, 2022 9:48:32 GMT
If I were PM, I’d introduce a law prohibiting ministers from being appointed without sufficient expertise and experience in their field. No more career politicians. No more PPE graduates from Oxford. A former teacher as education secretary A former doctor or nurse as health sec Economist as chancellor Diplomat as foreign sec Lawyer as justice sec Ex-military as defence Police or some sort of security officer or border force or immigration lawyer as home sec I bet that would help make a better government. Gove is one of the most hated education and justice ministers ever by people in those fields. Why did he ever have those jobs when he knows nothing about the areas? It doesn’t always work of course - Suella Braverman was an appalling Attorney General proven by the fact her legal analysis was often so wrong in the face of judicial reviews of government laws and policy (usually because she ignored the government lawyers advising her otherwise). Oh dear No room for an accountant, no room for a trade unionist, no room for a social worker, as as for actually having a business person run the country, God forbid! An economist, really? Put 10 economists in a room and you get 10 opinions. See James OBrien's piece above on what some economists were saying about the mini budget. A lawyer for justice? Well hopefully not one of those who do their best to get criminals off. I always wonder how a lawyer who has got a rapist off, who they know is guilty, lives with their conscience. I suspect justice is just a game to them. As for teacher on education, doctor/nurse on health, military person on defence, police on security, well , yes, they will certainly know how to spend the nations money, and lots more of it. I think you got it right in the last paragraph, "It doesn't always work of course". You gave a prime example. I'm reminded of a statement by Manchester City Council many years ago when they expressed concern that there was not a single councilor who had any experience of actually running a business. Naturally that stuck in my memory.
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Post by noustie on Oct 21, 2022 9:50:07 GMT
What I’d like to see, and it’ll never fucking happen in a million years, is a coalition of relative competence for the next two years through to the next GE.
Someone like Ken Clarke purely having the gravitas to just go ‘fuck this – I’m running and from this cesspit of shitehawks and wankers will pick a team to save the country from oblivion and Watford’s chairman from laughing his cock off at our staff turnover. Kier you go Home Secretary; Rishi Chancellor; Whitford (snp) you go health; Green not obsessed with getting women with dicks into spaces legally for women without you go environment; Lib Dems you’re on the coffee run and; Jacob your nanny is here with her wanking mitt on so off you fuck!’
Granted it’s unrealistic but if someone had the ability to pull from across the house the tory’s couldn’t moan as it’ll be saving their arse for 2 years and the opposition couldn’t moan as it would potentially be in the best interests of the country.
Instead we’ll have Boris back spouting bollocks and promising built a bridge to the moon.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 21, 2022 9:51:41 GMT
If I were PM, I’d introduce a law prohibiting ministers from being appointed without sufficient expertise and experience in their field. No more career politicians. No more PPE graduates from Oxford. A former teacher as education secretary A former doctor or nurse as health sec Economist as chancellor Diplomat as foreign sec Lawyer as justice sec Ex-military as defence Police or some sort of security officer or border force or immigration lawyer as home sec I bet that would help make a better government. Gove is one of the most hated education and justice ministers ever by people in those fields. Why did he ever have those jobs when he knows nothing about the areas? It doesn’t always work of course - Suella Braverman was an appalling Attorney General proven by the fact her legal analysis was often so wrong in the face of judicial reviews of government laws and policy (usually because she ignored the government lawyers advising her otherwise). Oh dear No room for an accountant, no room for a trade unionist, no room for a social worker, as as for actually having a business person run the country, God forbid! An economist, really? Put 10 economists in a room and you get 10 opinions. See James OBrien's piece above on what some economists were saying about the mini budget. A lawyer for justice? Well hopefully not one of those who do their best to get criminals off. I always wonder how a lawyer who has got a rapist off, who they know is guilty, lives with their conscience. I suspect justice is just a game to them. As for teacher on education, doctor/nurse on health, military person on defence, police on security, well , yes, they will certainly know how to spend the nations money, and lots more of it. I think you got it right in the last paragraph, "It doesn't always work of course". You gave a prime example. I'm reminded of a statement by Manchester City Council many years ago when they expressed concern that there was not a single councilor who had any experience of actually running a business. Naturally that stuck in my memory. Why no accountant? They might make a good chancellor? Why not a titan of industry as business secretary? Why not a social worker as children’s minister? Without lawyers who get criminals off we would have no criminals in prison! Why are you opposed to having a criminal justice system!? Or do you think PPE grads and old Etonians make the best leaders!? Rather than people experienced in leading in their specialist area.
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Post by yeokel on Oct 21, 2022 9:51:56 GMT
If I were PM, I’d introduce a law prohibiting ministers from being appointed without sufficient expertise and experience in their field. No more career politicians. No more PPE graduates from Oxford. A former teacher as education secretary A former doctor or nurse as health sec Economist as chancellor Diplomat as foreign sec Lawyer as justice sec Ex-military as defence Police or some sort of security officer or border force or immigration lawyer as home sec I bet that would help make a better government. Gove is one of the most hated education and justice ministers ever by people in those fields. Why did he ever have those jobs when he knows nothing about the areas? It doesn’t always work of course - Suella Braverman was an appalling Attorney General proven by the fact her legal analysis was often so wrong in the face of judicial reviews of government laws and policy (usually because she ignored the government lawyers advising her otherwise). It's a tough one that. I think you might struggle to find enough people with the knowledge and experience necessary. The people who really know what's going on are the civil servants, they're the ones who've often been in the role for years and know how government works and where spending will or won't make a difference. Unfortunately, the politicians often seem to ignore their advice because it doesn't suit their political agenda, or those of the people they need to have on side, such as the press barons. With the consequences we've seen over the last seven years or so. It’s rare that I agree with you, but I do on this. There is nothing to say that a good teacher would make a good education secretary. They are entirely different roles. Same with a nurse or surgeon. They might be excellent in their roles, but how does that qualify them to run the whole NHS? And so on and so forth. As you said, it is the role of the civil service to advise ministers and to offer them options to achieve their objectives. A minister may be permitted to tweak the ideas or choices but should, if they listen, be protected from making a complete mess of things. Modern politicians, however, think they know so much better and, at a cost to us all, all too frequently end up proving that they don’t. It’s the same in business - when a company has a purge of their older senior staff and introduces or promotes a handful of whiz kids they loose a large chunk of ‘corporate knowledge’ which is able to prevent mistakes from being repeated. By all means, have the likes of teachers and nurses as part of the civil service, or trusted advisers to it, but don’t let them loose in to running huge systems for which they may have little relevant or aptitude.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 21, 2022 9:52:57 GMT
Boris as PM again, and then he will be found to have lied to Parliament and forced to resign by Christmas and we start the process again!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 9:58:50 GMT
Ah, but it's a witch-hunt...biased...or perhaps just...so what, it's Boris, he can do what he likes. It's staggering if they even let him to stand bearing in mind that if he is found in contempt by the committee, he would be expected to resign as a Minister, could be suspended from The Commons or even lose his seat. Ah, but it's Boris...Eton, Oxford, world king...
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 21, 2022 10:04:53 GMT
Good question here why is lazy incompetent corrupt boris flying in off holiday to the UK surely he should have been here representing his constituents .yet some on here support this liying treeloader and treat him like the messiah
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Post by teenagefanclub on Oct 21, 2022 10:12:47 GMT
Good question here why is lazy incompetent corrupt boris flying in off holiday to the UK surely he should have been here representing his constituents .yet some on here support this liying treeloader and treat him like the messiah I never knew he used to be a logger
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 21, 2022 10:13:01 GMT
You've got to laugh, haven't you? ERG want senior cabinet positions to endorse Boris - and you know they'll get them if that's what it takes Steve Baker Home Secretary and Mark Francois Chancellor?!
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 21, 2022 10:30:08 GMT
Point A. I think there all sorts of problems with our system of government, but I think the main one is the politicians, rather than the system per se. Yes a despotic leader or a character like Johnson who has no respect for rules and protocol would certainly be a problem, but as I have pointed out earlier today, we have actually managed one way or another to remove or force out the last two PMs, whereas other systems would find that a lot more difficult. How many presidents have actually been removed, and some of them (Berlusconi, Sarkozy, Chirac) were found to be crooks. I think the US Presidential system has merits, and I would like to see our HoL replaced by a senate, which would be elected and have power to amend and delay government legislation, but not overturn it. But what happens as in France today when a president can't get his legislation through the elected representatives? In France the president has taken emergency powers to push through his legislation, hardly democratic. I think there is no ideal system and a system has to suit the character of the country. I am not a supporter of PR, because we British are very individualistic and find it difficult to bury differences and agree. There is current in fighting in the Tory Party, and I've lost count of the number of Tory leaders there were when Blair was PM, and as for the Labour party they have spent decades in the wilderness because of in-fighting between the extreme left and the centre politicians. How then can we reasonably expect coalitions to work in the UK if our two main parties are always changing leaders? We would be worse than Italy! Just look at the problems May had when she couldn't command a majority in the Commons, she was impotent. Thatcher would have been ditched by her party a lot sooner, but she was "saved" by the Falklands War *. I just don't think coalition government, which is the natural consequence of PR would work for the British. * www.upi.com/Archives/1981/12/18/Mrs-Thatcher-called-Britains-most-unpopular-leader-since-WW-II/7728377499600/Point B. I see no problem is revisiting membership of the EU periodically, but what should the period be? Certainly not less than a decade, you cannot go in and out on a regular basis. If there was another referendum and a vote to join the EU, I would respect that decision. On the issue of party leadership change, I think there has to be some rule where if a PM changes then the new PM has to abide by the manifesto the former PM was elected on, or go to the country. They should not simply change direction like Truss did. Truss said she is resigning because she cannot implement the "manifesto" she was elected to the Tory leadership on. Well firstly, if she really believed that, she should have resigned last week instead of doing U turn, and secondly the Tory party has no mandate to change the policies that got them into power in 2019. I appreciate there can be "events" that prevent implementing policy till a later date. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that all the promises the Tories made at the December 2019 general election went out the window a matter of weeks later when the world pandemic broke, and even today some of those promises are simply impractical with all the problems the pandemic has created. It would be same if the country went to war, and we are in a cold war with energy and food prices going through the roof right across Europe. You make reasonable counterpoints, but my central theme was that Sovereignty as such, specifically in UK can be usurped by a Rouge Administration like Johnson's who merely have to "look away" because there are insufficient checks and balances in our system of Governance. The British Parliamentary System has relied historically on "Good Chaps" doing the "Right Thing" and more often than not did so. The trouble arises when you allow " a Fox into the Hen House" his corrupting influence becomes pervasive So yes I agree Politicians are to blame, but the system allows them the opportunity. You say we have managed to "remove or force out" the last 2 PMs (Apologies I haven't read your previous post) I would argue strenuously that it was self preservation which forced the issue on both occasions from MPs fearful of reelection You cannot tell me that Johnson's Excesses or Truss’s incompetence were not widely known within the Party. They were perfectly willing to overlook their faults as long as it was expedient and ran for the lifeboats when it wasn't You ask how many Presidents have been removed and cite Berlusconi (never President) Sarkozy and Chirac ( who's legal problems relate to when he was Mayor of Paris) nevertheless I get your point I'd say it's a credit to the Italian Prosecuting system and Antonio del Piero in particular who pursued a Billionaire (estimated fortune $6B) and with immence political influence to a successful conviction for what was known as "Tangentopoli" (Kickbacks) and Tax Fraud. During the Covid Epidemic many Billions of Contracts were approved via The UK Government VIP Lane (consistently denied it even existed) including a £40M PPE Contract to Matt Hancock's (he seems to be getting more visible these days) Pub Landlord. This VIP Lane was found to be unlawful in the High Court but Freedom of Information Requests continue to be frustrated. Will the Covid enquiry or NAO get to the bottom of this? No I don't think so either. Sarkozy and Chirac were ironically Prosecuted for overspending on Election Campaigns. Funding for the Vote Leave Campaign was found to be fraudulent by the Electoral Commission Excess funds were used over the permitted amount and through Jiggery Pokery moved funds between Vote Leave, BeLeave and the mysterious £400,000 sent to DUP in NI an enormous sum in that context. Because the Referendum was "Advisory" the Electoral Commission had no powers to pursue the matter further, but pass it to Government for further action When the Electoral Commission reluctantly began its investigation there were howls of derision from Johnson, Gove, Rabb, Patel etc that it was sour grapes on behalf of Remain and nothing would be found. When it was proved conclusively that skulduggery had indeed occurred there was strangely silence from the aforementioned people Naturally it was in the gift of these same people to "Mark their own homework" and of course they declined to do so. The above does not include the nefarious activities of Mr Banks or indeed the suppressed for "National Security Reasons " The Russia Report. You correctly identified areas where corruption within Public Office and Subversion of The Electoral Process were successfully Prosecuted in Italy and France. These same egregious acts have been perpetrated in UK in recent years but they are simply swept under the carpet and there are no checks and balances in our Government Structure which renders UK Sovereignty/Democracy flawed www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-broke-electoral-law-and-british-democracy-is-shakenPoint B You have always maintained that UK Sovereignty is maintained by no current Government binding future Governments. As we have no written Constitution, Referendum are by nature advisory and voluntary There would be nothing to stop any future Government renegotiating re-entry to EU in the "National Interest " for Economic or Security Considerations and I can easily see it happening in the future Regarding Party Leadership and Manifesto's again this could only be voluntary for the same reason as non binding on future Governments The Fixed Term Parliament was overturned when expedient It is the flaw in thinking that Power is in the hands of the people when in fact when Elected MPs can do precisely what they want to do. The only reason further Electoral Excesses are not pursued by sitting Governments is the fear if they lose office even worse calamities will be visited upon them by an incoming Government Not a lot I would disagree with there. Sorry to send you off on a long diatribe about crooked foreign politicians. My initial comment was simply a bit of throwaway whaboutery that other countries have crooked leaders as well as the UK. As for bringing them to book, it always seems to be long after the event. We have brought crooked politicians to book in the UK of course. I used to go to an annual steel industry dinner in Scunthorpe which Elliot Morley attended each year till he went to gaol, along with other expense claim fiddlers. Getting back to the key issues, I still maintain that system of one MP per constituency is sound. The main driving force in the HoC is that MPs know if they mess up, or their party messes up, their job is on the line and the people will throw them out no matter how prominent or "safe" they are, e.g. Portillo. So no I don't think MPs can do precisely what they want to do., and they will be held to account by their constituents or the people who put them their. And, as Truss has found out, neither can PMs with a huge majority do what they want to do. We disagree on that. Going back to the US constitution and the limited power of the President, I am always reminded that the first piece of paper Obama signed when he took office was to start the process of getting rid of Guantanomo Bay camp, however many years ago that was. Prisoners are still dieing there; of old age now. As for rejoining the EU, well it would be interesting to see what terms the EU Commission would offer the UK!!!
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 21, 2022 10:32:01 GMT
Boris or Bust is an incredibly stupid slogan AS mentioned numerous times on here, never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
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Post by elystokie on Oct 21, 2022 10:34:58 GMT
Good question here why is lazy incompetent corrupt boris flying in off holiday to the UK surely he should have been here representing his constituents .yet some on here support this liying treeloader and treat him like the messiah I never knew he used to be a logger Reminded me of this, somewhat bizzarely
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 10:38:29 GMT
It's brilliant, now watch Kier shit himself. He will not get into power in 2 years... Why on earth would Kier shit himself!? He has systematically risen in popularity and his opponents are sinking like a stone. He’s laughing. Shhh, it makes knype feel better
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2022 10:40:18 GMT
I agree in principle bearing in mind, you can have a qualified doctor, economist or lawyer who is crap at their job. It's true that these career politicians just hop into specialist areas without any evidence of qualification or knowledge. I don't think there is any other industry, or organisation that works like this? I definitely agree with the experience aspect. Though, unless you increase the salary for those posts, you will only be getting retirees (or those close to it). I don’t really get term limits for MPs. If the people want to keep voting them in, they should be able to. Term limits will just mean ever more constant reshuffling and a consistent lack of experience across the government.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 21, 2022 10:43:41 GMT
It's brilliant, now watch Kier shit himself. He will not get into power in 2 years... Why on earth would Kier shit himself!? He has systematically risen in popularity and his opponents are sinking like a stone. He’s laughing. Sure his poularity has risen, and its all assumptions at the moment, but if he gets into power then the acid test begins. Its one of the toughest gigs going, which the whole nation has seen and further afield as well. Time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2022 10:49:38 GMT
You've got to laugh, haven't you? ERG want senior cabinet positions to endorse Boris - and you know they'll get them if that's what it takes Steve Baker Home Secretary and Mark Francois Chancellor?! It’s laughable that right up to six weeks ago, senior ministers mostly wanted him gone. Though JR-M has always been a bit of a lapdog for Johnson.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 10:52:16 GMT
You've got to laugh, haven't you? ERG want senior cabinet positions to endorse Boris - and you know they'll get them if that's what it takes Steve Baker Home Secretary and Mark Francois Chancellor?! This answers Paul Spencer's question about why has the right been so quiet about Truss's implosion, doesn't it?
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Post by lordb on Oct 21, 2022 10:55:18 GMT
Why on earth would Kier shit himself!? He has systematically risen in popularity and his opponents are sinking like a stone. He’s laughing. Sure his poularity has risen, and its all assumptions at the moment, but if he gets into power then the acid test begins. Its one of the toughest gigs going, which the whole nation has seen and further afield as well. Time will tell. That's a different argument than Knype is making He is stating Starmer won't be PM
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2022 11:01:30 GMT
If I were PM, I’d introduce a law prohibiting ministers from being appointed without sufficient expertise and experience in their field. No more career politicians. No more PPE graduates from Oxford. A former teacher as education secretary A former doctor or nurse as health sec Economist as chancellor Diplomat as foreign sec Lawyer as justice sec Ex-military as defence Police or some sort of security officer or border force or immigration lawyer as home sec I bet that would help make a better government. Gove is one of the most hated education and justice ministers ever by people in those fields. Why did he ever have those jobs when he knows nothing about the areas? It doesn’t always work of course - Suella Braverman was an appalling Attorney General proven by the fact her legal analysis was often so wrong in the face of judicial reviews of government laws and policy (usually because she ignored the government lawyers advising her otherwise). Oh dear No room for an accountant, no room for a trade unionist, no room for a social worker, as as for actually having a business person run the country, God forbid! An economist, really? Put 10 economists in a room and you get 10 opinions. See James OBrien's piece above on what some economists were saying about the mini budget. A lawyer for justice? Well hopefully not one of those who do their best to get criminals off. I always wonder how a lawyer who has got a rapist off, who they know is guilty, lives with their conscience. I suspect justice is just a game to them. As for teacher on education, doctor/nurse on health, military person on defence, police on security, well , yes, they will certainly know how to spend the nations money, and lots more of it. I think you got it right in the last paragraph, "It doesn't always work of course". You gave a prime example. I'm reminded of a statement by Manchester City Council many years ago when they expressed concern that there was not a single councilor who had any experience of actually running a business. Naturally that stuck in my memory. “As for teacher on education, doctor/nurse on health, military person on defence, police on security, well , yes, they will certainly know how to spend the nations money, and lots more of it.” Or they actually know where the major problems are and can work with it. If you give them a budget and tell them that’s all they have, that’s all they can do. I think it’s laughable that the UK has individuals with limited experience in specialist roles running the country. It’s not exactly like education, the NHS, the police force, our armed forces etc, are performing well enough that an argument could be made for how successful that has been either.
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Post by gawa on Oct 21, 2022 11:08:16 GMT
Wouldn't trust the numbers being thrown about by Guido Fawkes
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 21, 2022 11:17:45 GMT
It's a tough one that. I think you might struggle to find enough people with the knowledge and experience necessary. The people who really know what's going on are the civil servants, they're the ones who've often been in the role for years and know how government works and where spending will or won't make a difference. Unfortunately, the politicians often seem to ignore their advice because it doesn't suit their political agenda, or those of the people they need to have on side, such as the press barons. With the consequences we've seen over the last seven years or so. It’s rare that I agree with you, but I do on this. There is nothing to say that a good teacher would make a good education secretary. They are entirely different roles. Same with a nurse or surgeon. They might be excellent in their roles, but how does that qualify them to run the whole NHS? And so on and so forth. As you said, it is the role of the civil service to advise ministers and to offer them options to achieve their objectives. A minister may be permitted to tweak the ideas or choices but should, if they listen, be protected from making a complete mess of things. Modern politicians, however, think they know so much better and, at a cost to us all, all too frequently end up proving that they don’t. It’s the same in business - when a company has a purge of their older senior staff and introduces or promotes a handful of whiz kids they loose a large chunk of ‘corporate knowledge’ which is able to prevent mistakes from being repeated. By all means, have the likes of teachers and nurses as part of the civil service, or trusted advisers to it, but don’t let them loose in to running huge systems for which they may have little relevant or aptitude. Don’t think Oggy is saying pluck a teacher or lawyer etc from their sector and place them as Secretary of State, but an older experienced person with some nous. We have Ben Wallace and did have Johnny Mercer in positions on the cabinet both with huge experience in their field.
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Post by lordb on Oct 21, 2022 11:19:10 GMT
Ben Wallace not standing
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Post by gawa on Oct 21, 2022 11:21:06 GMT
The village idiot for Stoke has spoken.
The worrying thing is that this plonker will be back teaching kids in school in a few years time.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 21, 2022 11:24:19 GMT
Nice to see our "sensible", "safe pair of hands" Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, supporting a Boris return.
You really couldn't make this shit up
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 21, 2022 11:39:03 GMT
It'd be genuinely hilarious if it didn't affect so many people so adversely. I can't wait to see the polls if Bozo gets the gig again. I had to laugh at someone saying he deserves a second chance. A second chance? He's had about a dozen throughout his life so far, he never learns and he never changes
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Post by gawa on Oct 21, 2022 11:42:06 GMT
I think everyone in opposition is hoping for a Boris appointment. And luckily for us there are enough twats in the tory party to ensure it happens.
Keep digging tories.
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