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Post by OldStokie on Oct 19, 2022 13:17:08 GMT
Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up. That's a very good question and I think you guys are over complicating it with talk of conspiracy theories etc. I think what has happened is that almost all politicians (right through from the Labour Party to the right wing of the Tory party) have had their heads in the sands for years and didn't see this coming and have been totally spooked by what's happened in the markets since the catastrophic mini-budget, have actually taken on board some of what Jeremy Hunt has said, and have gone away to have a think about what fiscal responsibility means for them. I don't think they were taken by surprise. Sunak told them exactly what would happen before it happened when he was defeated in the Tory Leader election. As for it being a 'conspiracy', that video spells out what was happening behind the scenes. The only thing we don't know is who decided to stunt their agenda. And that's what we're discussing. OS.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 13:21:13 GMT
Fair enough. You're referring to methods and I'm focusing on longer-term objectives. It particularly rankles when I hear people talking about a bloke who called for the NHS to be privatised (before 2012, obviously) being on the 'left' of the party. I don't think he's on the left of the party. He's what we used to call a 'Responsible Conservative.' Yes, he's always wanted to privatize the NHS but that's nothing new. The Tories didn't want it in the first place and they've never funded it properly when they've been in power. But that was still 'Responsible Conservatism'. But what's happening now is that this Tufton Street mob are an entirely different entity, even more neoliberal than even the ERG, which is the extreme right-wing of the Tory Party. 100's of Tories are likely to lose their seats (and therefore their power) if Truss and Kwarteng continued with their Tufton Street ideology and I reckon they've put a middle-of-the-road 'Responsible Conservative' in charge to try and steady the ship. I don't think it will work but it might limit the damage that would have happened had they not reigned in Truss and Kwarteng. That's what I think anyway. But as Paul has been saying, it's damned strange that Hunt has been imposed on Truss. But it does show what a weak front she was for this damned Tufton Street mob. OS. Agree with all of that Mick, and yes she was a weak front for the right but they wanted somebody malleable and they've since discovered that malleable can also mean weak. You said ... "I reckon they've put a middle-of-the-road 'Responsible Conservative' in charge to try and steady the ship." And I agree but the bit I haven't worked out yet, is who are " they"?
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 19, 2022 13:47:15 GMT
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Post by yeokel on Oct 19, 2022 13:56:09 GMT
Meh they said exactly the same stuff about Corbyn after the landslide in 2019. If the Tories have got any sense (which they don't) they'd call an election tomorrow, let Starmer deal with this shit show two years, sack Truss, rebuild and at least give yourself half a chance for the 2023 election. What's more likely is a suicidal approach of bringing in shit heads like Sunak or Hunt to run the next two years, lose the election but argue "it wasn't as bad as it could have been" and let the losing leader carry on with the pretext being that "they did much better than expected". Whatever the outcome, the Conservative party will get their chance again, hopefully with a competent leader. These are strange times for sure, similar to Blair, Starmer will probably prove a marginally more right wing leader than Boris, Truss, Sunak etc, particularly given he'll be under so much pressure to please his new seats and friends in financial services. Got to love left wing posters on here cheering on a guy who isnt remotely aligned to their ideology. Either way, it's time for change.
“….. they'd call an election tomorrow, let Starmer deal with this shit show two years, sack Truss, rebuild and at least give yourself half a chance for the 2023 election”
2023 is only three months away, not two years. But if an election was called now, why do you think there would be another one next year? 🤷🏼
“ similar to Blair, Starmer will probably prove a marginally more right wing leader than Boris, Truss, Sunak etc, particularly given he'll be under so much pressure to please his new seats and friends in financial services. ”You don’t half write some rubbish!
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Post by wannabee on Oct 19, 2022 13:57:45 GMT
To be fair mate, quite a few of the serious journo's have mentioned him over the last few weeks. Tufton Street knew they wouldn't even get their budget out of the door with Scholar still in post, hence why he was at the very top of Kwarteng's hit list when he got into No.11. Such an utter waste, to have sacrificed one of the most respected British civil servants on the world stage at the alter of (doomed) trussenomics. To be fair the Article was more of a Hatchet Job on Scholar And a revisionist take on Lizzy's Brexit credentials I wouldn't expect anything more from this Hack
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 19, 2022 14:02:38 GMT
Fair enough. You're referring to methods and I'm focusing on longer-term objectives. It particularly rankles when I hear people talking about a bloke who called for the NHS to be privatised (before 2012, obviously) being on the 'left' of the party. I don't think he's on the left of the party. He's what we used to call a 'Responsible Conservative.' Yes, he's always wanted to privatize the NHS but that's nothing new. The Tories didn't want it in the first place and they've never funded it properly when they've been in power. But that was still 'Responsible Conservatism'. But what's happening now is that this Tufton Street mob are an entirely different entity, even more neoliberal than even the ERG, which is the extreme right-wing of the Tory Party. 100's of Tories are likely to lose their seats (and therefore their power) if Truss and Kwarteng continued with their Tufton Street ideology and I reckon they've put a middle-of-the-road 'Responsible Conservative' in charge to try and steady the ship. I don't think it will work but it might limit the damage that would have happened had they not reigned in Truss and Kwarteng. That's what I think anyway. But as Paul has been saying, it's damned strange that Hunt has been imposed on Truss. But it does show what a weak front she was for this damned Tufton Street mob. OS. I think your comment on the NHS are not correct. After the war, everyone recognised the value of having a national health service and Beveridge a Liberal drew up a plan. The difference in views was how it should be organised. The socialist Labour government, who were busy nationalising industries wanted a nationalised health service. GPs, local authorities, Tories, and others wanted a more delegated service controlled by local authorities in a similar manner to the then education authorities. We finished up with a compromise and today the largest employer in Europe. Only the armed forces of US, India, Russia, and China, the railways of China and India, and worldwide companies like Amazon and McDonald's are bigger employers. As a former manager in the nationalised steel industry, my view is businesses can be so large than they become unmanageable and like dinosaurs, failing to keep competitive and efficient. That is not to say they should not be properly regulated as clearly the water companies aren't. The bigger an organisation and the longer the communication chains the less effectively it functions. That is why ICI was split up, the German chemical industry was split up, etc. I agree that we can learn from other countries, but we should not be mislead by what much smaller countries do necessarily, as it is easier to manage smaller organisations. Larger countries would be a better guide, having said that I once had a dreadful experience in Paris when taken ill, so I would not recommend the French health service model. Germany and Japan are superb organisers and administrators, would we undisciplined British be capable of doing what they do? I'm running out of ideas! www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/alevelstudies/origins-nhs.htm#:~:text=Despite%20the%20apparent%20consensus%2C%20opposition,government%20taking%20control%20of%20hospitals.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 19, 2022 14:13:19 GMT
Meh they said exactly the same stuff about Corbyn after the landslide in 2019. If the Tories have got any sense (which they don't) they'd call an election tomorrow, let Starmer deal with this shit show two years, sack Truss, rebuild and at least give yourself half a chance for the 2023 election. What's more likely is a suicidal approach of bringing in shit heads like Sunak or Hunt to run the next two years, lose the election but argue "it wasn't as bad as it could have been" and let the losing leader carry on with the pretext being that "they did much better than expected". Whatever the outcome, the Conservative party will get their chance again, hopefully with a competent leader. These are strange times for sure, similar to Blair, Starmer will probably prove a marginally more right wing leader than Boris, Truss, Sunak etc, particularly given he'll be under so much pressure to please his new seats and friends in financial services. Got to love left wing posters on here cheering on a guy who isnt remotely aligned to their ideology. Either way, it's time for change. The majority of left wing posters on here are at best ambivalent about Starmer - however he's not a raving lunatic and right now that gives him a head start on the current incumbent in No10. Also the majority of left leaning posters are not ideologists - they just have a social conscience. It's ideologists like the fuckwitts in the ERG and the Tufton Street taliban that are largely responsible for this mess. Ideologies are best avoided.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 14:18:19 GMT
To be fair mate, quite a few of the serious journo's have mentioned him over the last few weeks. Tufton Street knew they wouldn't even get their budget out of the door with Scholar still in post, hence why he was at the very top of Kwarteng's hit list when he got into No.11. Such an utter waste, to have sacrificed one of the most respected British civil servants on the world stage at the alter of (doomed) trussenomics. To be fair the Article was more of a Hatchet Job on Scholar And a revisionist take on Lizzy's Brexit credentials I wouldn't expect anything more from this Hack
That's exactly why I said 'serious' journo's mate and then showed my regret for what happened to him.
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 19, 2022 14:22:42 GMT
Does this make her agent 0010.1 😁😁
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 14:25:51 GMT
How on earth can she threaten to withdraw the whip from MP's who are upholding the 2019 Tory manifesto?
She's lost her mind ...
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Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 19, 2022 14:35:48 GMT
How on earth can she threaten to withdraw the whip from MP's who are upholding the 2019 Tory manifesto? She's lost her mind ... Think this could expedite things ultimately. If enough decide to take the plunge she can't take the whip off all of them.
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Post by Veritas on Oct 19, 2022 14:40:09 GMT
I hear all that, Paul, but the fact that he has a reputation as a 'One Nation' socially-liberal Remainer (much like Cameron and others in the Cabinet during those first five years), doesn't alter the fact that he's economically right-wing, favouring a low-tax, market-led economy. He may be more fiscally responsible and less radical than Kwarteng, but the differences lie only in the methodology; in the long run, he wants exactly the same things. Is he actually more fiscally responsible? In his leadership bid Hunt went further than the Truss proposal to keep Corporation Tax at 19% he proposed reducing to 15%, if I remember rightly, which would have caused a bigger funding gap than the removal of the 45% Income tax rate.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 19, 2022 14:41:20 GMT
warm hubs across the country to stop deaths is that what we have come to as a society under this government Invite a few round to your house and whack the heating up for them..... go on you know you want to.....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 14:43:33 GMT
How on earth can she threaten to withdraw the whip from MP's who are upholding the 2019 Tory manifesto? She's lost her mind ... Think this could expedite things ultimately. If enough decide to take the plunge she can't take the whip off all of them. How can you be thrown out of your party for voting to support your own manifesto, does Truss not realise how utterly ridiculous this makes them look? And furthermore, if she's going to throw their 2019 manifesto in the bin, how can she then claim that she has a mandate to govern? It preposterous!
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Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 19, 2022 14:46:32 GMT
Think this could expedite things ultimately. If enough decide to take the plunge she can't take the whip off all of them. How can you be thrown out of your party for voting to support your own manifesto, does Truss not realise how utterly ridiculous this makes them look? And furthermore, if she's going to throw their 2019 manifesto in the bin, how can she then claim that she has a mandate to govern? It preposterous! It's utter madenss Paul and on top of that she has now given rebels a double chance to vote on fracking and her Premiership.....if they're brave enough!
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2022 15:19:06 GMT
Sounds like the idiotic Braverman is resigning.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2022 15:23:31 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2022 15:24:58 GMT
How on earth can she threaten to withdraw the whip from MP's who are upholding the 2019 Tory manifesto? She's lost her mind ... Surely she should have the whip removed for intentionally breaking the manifesto which gives her and her party a mandate.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2022 15:27:38 GMT
Sun say Braverman was sacked, rather than resigned
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Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 19, 2022 15:30:15 GMT
Sun say Braverman was sacked, rather than resigned Sounding like one from Prime Minister Hunt this one! A tofu dinner in order tonight I think.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 15:36:11 GMT
I'm just gobsmacked at how quiet your Braverman's, Reese-Mogg's etc. have gone all of a sudden. Apologies for answering my own question but it appears that Braverman has been sacked and will be replaced by Shapps (a Sunak supporter).
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 19, 2022 15:37:22 GMT
I hear all that, Paul, but the fact that he has a reputation as a 'One Nation' socially-liberal Remainer (much like Cameron and others in the Cabinet during those first five years), doesn't alter the fact that he's economically right-wing, favouring a low-tax, market-led economy. He may be more fiscally responsible and less radical than Kwarteng, but the differences lie only in the methodology; in the long run, he wants exactly the same things. Is he actually more fiscally responsible? In his leadership bid Hunt went further than the Truss proposal to keep Corporation Tax at 19% he proposed reducing to 15%, if I remember rightly, which would have caused a bigger funding gap than the removal of the 45% Income tax rate. You're correct. To be honest, I'd not paid much attention to his campaign as he never stood a snowflake's chance in Hell. www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/09/jeremy-hunt-can-restore-voters-trust-stayed-boris-bubble/
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 15:39:28 GMT
Sun say Braverman was sacked, rather than resigned Sounding like one from Prime Minister Hunt this one! A tofu dinner in order tonight I think.
I really would like to know who is leading this purge?
If you remember, when Braverman fell out of the leadership contest, she immediately got behind Truss and took a lot of the MP's supporting her with her.
Now a Sunak supporter who has publicly been bad mouthing Truss is replacing her.
What is going on?
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 19, 2022 15:41:08 GMT
I'm just gobsmacked at how quiet your Braverman's, Reese-Mogg's etc. have gone all of a sudden. Apologies for answering my own question but it appears that Braverman has been sacked and will be replaced by Shapps (a Sunak supporter). Good riddance. Cruella made Priti look compassionate. I wonder if this is part of a wider plan to purge the 'Loony Right'?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 15:42:49 GMT
Apologies for answering my own question but it appears that Braverman has been sacked and will be replaced by Shapps (a Sunak supporter). Good riddance. Cruella made Priti look compassionate. I wonder if this is part of a wider plan to purge the 'Loony Right'?
It certainly seems that way Dex, I'd love to know who's orchestrating it.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2022 15:44:41 GMT
Braverman allies claiming she's been "stitched up". PM Hunt obviously looking for any reason to ditch her
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 15:54:14 GMT
So assuming it is Shapps, that will mean that the PM, The Chancellor and the Home Sec. all voted to remain.
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Post by flea79 on Oct 19, 2022 15:56:01 GMT
quite an incredible few weeks in Westminster....
is Truss fast heading for the shortest reign as PM?
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Post by ChesterStokie on Oct 19, 2022 15:58:51 GMT
That's a very good question and I think you guys are over complicating it with talk of conspiracy theories etc. I think what has happened is that almost all politicians (right through from the Labour Party to the right wing of the Tory party) have had their heads in the sands for years and didn't see this coming and have been totally spooked by what's happened in the markets since the catastrophic mini-budget, have actually taken on board some of what Jeremy Hunt has said, and have gone away to have a think about what fiscal responsibility means for them. I don't think they were taken by surprise. Sunak told them exactly what would happen before it happened when he was defeated in the Tory Leader election. As for it being a 'conspiracy', that video spells out what was happening behind the scenes. The only thing we don't know is who decided to stunt their agenda. And that's what we're discussing. OS. They were taken totally by surprise at the severity of the market reaction. Truss and Kwartang hadn't expected that reaction or they wouldn't have done it. The Tory right have gone quiet because they now need a rethink (as do Labour). I agree Sunak was correct all along but hardly anyone was listening.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Oct 19, 2022 16:00:22 GMT
Sounding like one from Prime Minister Hunt this one! A tofu dinner in order tonight I think.
I really would like to know who is leading this purge?
If you remember, when Braverman fell out of the leadership contest, she immediately got behind Truss and took a lot of the MP's supporting her with her.
Now a Sunak supporter who has publicly been bad mouthing Truss is replacing her.
What is going on?
I couldn't tell you mate. I think there is potentially something orchestrated (possibly sinister) going on but I feel that genuine full on incompetent idiocy is also at play. This is the dregs of country at the top of the Political tree. One thing is for sure those behind it wont be the ones to suffer.
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