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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 19, 2022 7:49:53 GMT
Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. What I've never been able to reconcile was this preoccupation with tax cuts. The voter intention survey which has been running for years has never shown any appetite for tax cuts and less spending on public services. Even during Austerity 1.0 the majority of UK voters wanted same taxation same spending. During the leadership campaign the UK figures were about a third (34%) wished taxes and spending on public services remained at current levels, 26% thought there should be an increase in tax to increase funding. Only 22% said that taxes should be reduced and less spent on public services. Even among those who voted Conservative at the last election 41% said they wanted to see levels remain as they are now, 27% wanted to see a cut in taxes and 22% want to see an increase. The low tax "more money in my pocket" fixation isn't even a widely held Tory belief. No, but it is how to redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich. That is the sole mission of the tory party. Always has been, always will be it seems. Who did well out of tanking the pound with brexit and Kwarteng’s budget? Crispin Odey, Jacob Rees Mogg, Nigel Farage, Kwasi Kwarteng and the others with hedge fund links who make millions from shorting the pound.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 19, 2022 8:51:15 GMT
Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. What I've never been able to reconcile was this preoccupation with tax cuts. The voter intention survey which has been running for years has never shown any appetite for tax cuts and less spending on public services. Even during Austerity 1.0 the majority of UK voters wanted same taxation same spending. During the leadership campaign the UK figures were about a third (34%) wished taxes and spending on public services remained at current levels, 26% thought there should be an increase in tax to increase funding. Only 22% said that taxes should be reduced and less spent on public services. Even among those who voted Conservative at the last election 41% said they wanted to see levels remain as they are now, 27% wanted to see a cut in taxes and 22% want to see an increase. The low tax "more money in my pocket" fixation isn't even a widely held Tory belief. I've watched the republicans trying the "give the rich all the money and cut help for the poor" thing in America and it really does seem to make the rich people lots richer. Not only that, but with so much private healthcare there's another way they can really feel better than the poor.
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Post by toppercorner on Oct 19, 2022 8:57:42 GMT
I've been wondering about this over the weekend, the Tufton Street ideologues have been planning this for years and Truss was clearly their puppet, so what exactly happened last Thursday/Friday? Where on earth did Jeremy Hunt suddenly appear from? Under whose instruction was he parachuted in and why? Are your Braverman's and Reese-Moggs not absolutely spitting feathers, have the ERG simply just stood aside? Hunt is essentially running the country now, yet he was first out in the leadership election with just 18 votes. Who has given him this power and why? Why aren't the press asking this question? the press don't ask questions because they have a cosy relationship with those in Westminster, and thrive on the power themselves. By rocking the boat, they'll have their privileges and access revoked.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 19, 2022 9:17:21 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 19, 2022 9:21:19 GMT
Tory Britain 2022... with Hunt apparently set to do what Labour have been pledging for some time ie windfall taxes on banks and energy companies, and blackouts likely this winter, is this the end of the forty year neo-lib trickle down economic experiment? I think, with hospitals opening foodbanks for their nurses and employed people using them too, not just homeless, we can safely say that it has enriched a very few people and resulted in many millions more struggling. It's time to abandon hard right free market economics and make a capitalist economy work to benefit everyone in society, as far as possible. That probably means a return to a mixed ownership approach, so let's look at how northern European countries operate their economies and emulate it where possible.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 9:27:47 GMT
I've been wondering about this over the weekend, the Tufton Street ideologues have been planning this for years and Truss was clearly their puppet, so what exactly happened last Thursday/Friday? Where on earth did Jeremy Hunt suddenly appear from? Under whose instruction was he parachuted in and why? Are your Braverman's and Reese-Moggs not absolutely spitting feathers, have the ERG simply just stood aside? Hunt is essentially running the country now, yet he was first out in the leadership election with just 18 votes. Who has given him this power and why? Why aren't the press asking this question? Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 19, 2022 9:30:38 GMT
Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. What I've never been able to reconcile was this preoccupation with tax cuts. The voter intention survey which has been running for years has never shown any appetite for tax cuts and less spending on public services. Even during Austerity 1.0 the majority of UK voters wanted same taxation same spending. During the leadership campaign the UK figures were about a third (34%) wished taxes and spending on public services remained at current levels, 26% thought there should be an increase in tax to increase funding. Only 22% said that taxes should be reduced and less spent on public services. Even among those who voted Conservative at the last election 41% said they wanted to see levels remain as they are now, 27% wanted to see a cut in taxes and 22% want to see an increase. The low tax "more money in my pocket" fixation isn't even a widely held Tory belief. I get what you say about voter intentions when it comes to taxation, although I suspect a lot of 'intentions' go out the window when you are presented with the choice in the voting booth between "vote Tory, pay less tax and get first rate public services" or "vote Labour, pay more tax and services remain shit" which is effectively as nuanced as the debate ever gets in this country. Of course, it's bollocks. You get what you pay for, everyone knows that. We pay less tax as a percentage of GDP than do our European neighbours so it's no surprise that our public services don't fare as well. Yet everyone relies on them daily. And they could easily be so much better. Not perfect, but loads better. I think Labour need to draw some contrasts between how our systems "work" and how those of more successful countries do so, and then ask how and why and whether we should do that. The danger there of course, is that it gives the Tories and their supporters in the media the perfect opportunity to go back to that tired old trite spending debate in which they scare millions into thinking all Labour ever does is take your money and piss it up all the wall.
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Post by andystokey on Oct 19, 2022 9:45:23 GMT
Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up. If you want a reasonable possible conspiracy theory the only thing that makes any sense to me is foreign pressure. It can't be Tufton Street It won't be 1922 committee or ERG It can't be cabinet driven because they are all her supporters. Foreign markets particularly the US have seen the UK working to trash everything they have been doing. A call from our "friends" over the pond with some "or else" attached makes sense. The thought of a foreign power influencing the democratic process is terrifying but hardly new.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 9:52:57 GMT
To be fair mate, quite a few of the serious journo's have mentioned him over the last few weeks. Tufton Street knew they wouldn't even get their budget out of the door with Scholar still in post, hence why he was at the very top of Kwarteng's hit list when he got into No.11. Such an utter waste, to have sacrificed one of the most respected British civil servants on the world stage at the alter of (doomed) trussenomics.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 10:05:35 GMT
Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up. If you want a reasonable possible conspiracy theory the only thing that makes any sense to me is foreign pressure. It can't be Tufton Street It won't be 1922 committee or ERG It can't be cabinet driven because they are all her supporters. Foreign markets particularly the US have seen the UK working to trash everything they have been doing. A call from our "friends" over the pond with some "or else" attached makes sense. The thought of a foreign power influencing the democratic process is terrifying but hardly new. Yep could be Andy. I'm just gobsmacked at how quiet your Braverman's, Reese-Mogg's etc. have gone all of a sudden. I just don't get how the right of the party have all seemed to have collectively agreed to the new (radically different) status quo without so much as a peep out of any of them. I'm really not trying to concoct a conspiracy theory, I'd just like some journo's to start asking questions. It's very, very odd.
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 19, 2022 10:21:43 GMT
It's incredible, and a sad indictment of how much further to the right we've lurched, when Jeremy 'Rhymes With' Hunt is considered a moderate. This is the guy who co-authored 'Direct Democracy' and was up to his armpits in the implementation of Austerity. Economically, he's as right-wing as they come. I doubt you'd get a fag paper between him and Thick Lizzie on economic ideology; the difference is that he has an air of authority and competence, and he knows what he needs to say and do to calm everything down. Ultimately, his objectives will be no different than hers.
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Post by raythesailor on Oct 19, 2022 11:01:28 GMT
Wed 19/10
Liz is doing PMQ at 12pm, if she turns up.
If it wasn’t so serious it would be funny.
Could be interesting.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 11:25:16 GMT
It's incredible, and a sad indictment of how much further to the right we've lurched, when Jeremy 'Rhymes With' Hunt is considered a moderate. This is the guy who co-authored 'Direct Democracy' and was up to his armpits in the implementation of Austerity. Economically, he's as right-wing as they come. I doubt you'd get a fag paper between him and Thick Lizzie on economic ideology; the difference is that he has an air of authority and competence, and he knows what he needs to say and do to calm everything down. Ultimately, his objectives will be no different than hers. "His heart has always been on the left of the party with its commitment to sound government and social reform." "Hunt has been patient enough to remain in Conservative politics even after his vocal support for remaining in the European Union in the 2016 referendum turned him into a marked man on the Brexit right." www.washingtonpost.com/business/the-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-jeremy-hunt/2022/10/19/b548be12-4f6b-11ed-ada8-04e6e6bf8b19_story.html"Jeremy Hunt, who was appointed Britain’s chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday, is a former foreign minister and a pragmatist from the ideological center ground of conservative politics. The selection of a moderate with government experience appeared intended to restore calm to financial markets." www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/world/europe/jeremy-hunt-uk-chancellor-finance.html"Hunt is considered to be aligned with orthodox Treasury thinking around balanced budgets and fiscal discipline." time.com/6222642/jeremy-hunt-uk-finance-minister/“She signed her own death warrant the moment she appointed Hunt. Once you put someone in of such a different political opinion, you can’t even claim this is about recognizing the markets and we are back on growth. The whole thing is dead.” www.politico.eu/article/britain-mario-draghi-jeremy-hunt-chancellor-exchequer-liz-truss/
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 19, 2022 11:37:00 GMT
Car crash pmqs best line yet
The reason you are asking questions is your the opposition in waiting 🤣🤣
How long can she last the ladys just for u turning
For those to young to get the reference Maggie Thatcher who truss models herself on said this ladys not for turning 😁😁😁
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 19, 2022 11:43:31 GMT
It's incredible, and a sad indictment of how much further to the right we've lurched, when Jeremy 'Rhymes With' Hunt is considered a moderate. This is the guy who co-authored 'Direct Democracy' and was up to his armpits in the implementation of Austerity. Economically, he's as right-wing as they come. I doubt you'd get a fag paper between him and Thick Lizzie on economic ideology; the difference is that he has an air of authority and competence, and he knows what he needs to say and do to calm everything down. Ultimately, his objectives will be no different than hers. "His heart has always been on the left of the party with its commitment to sound government and social reform." "Hunt has been patient enough to remain in Conservative politics even after his vocal support for remaining in the European Union in the 2016 referendum turned him into a marked man on the Brexit right." www.washingtonpost.com/business/the-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-jeremy-hunt/2022/10/19/b548be12-4f6b-11ed-ada8-04e6e6bf8b19_story.html"Jeremy Hunt, who was appointed Britain’s chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday, is a former foreign minister and a pragmatist from the ideological center ground of conservative politics. The selection of a moderate with government experience appeared intended to restore calm to financial markets." www.nytimes.com/2022/10/14/world/europe/jeremy-hunt-uk-chancellor-finance.html"Hunt is considered to be aligned with orthodox Treasury thinking around balanced budgets and fiscal discipline." time.com/6222642/jeremy-hunt-uk-finance-minister/“She signed her own death warrant the moment she appointed Hunt. Once you put someone in of such a different political opinion, you can’t even claim this is about recognizing the markets and we are back on growth. The whole thing is dead.” www.politico.eu/article/britain-mario-draghi-jeremy-hunt-chancellor-exchequer-liz-truss/I hear all that, Paul, but the fact that he has a reputation as a 'One Nation' socially-liberal Remainer (much like Cameron and others in the Cabinet during those first five years), doesn't alter the fact that he's economically right-wing, favouring a low-tax, market-led economy. He may be more fiscally responsible and less radical than Kwarteng, but the differences lie only in the methodology; in the long run, he wants exactly the same things.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 12:04:42 GMT
I hear all that, Paul, but the fact that he has a reputation as a 'One Nation' socially-liberal Remainer (much like Cameron and others in the Cabinet during those first five years), doesn't alter the fact that he's economically right-wing, favouring a low-tax, market-led economy. He may be more fiscally responsible and less radical than Kwarteng, but the differences lie only in the methodology; in the long run, he wants exactly the same things.
Don't think you can use the word 'only' there mate. The methodology is absolutely key here and is exactly what I was referring to. And Tufton Street and the right of the right (if that makes sense) in government, see things very differently to Hunt. The mini-budget would never have happened had he been in the Treasury at the time.
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Post by ChesterStokie on Oct 19, 2022 12:25:08 GMT
I've been wondering about this over the weekend, the Tufton Street ideologues have been planning this for years and Truss was clearly their puppet, so what exactly happened last Thursday/Friday? Where on earth did Jeremy Hunt suddenly appear from? Under whose instruction was he parachuted in and why? Are your Braverman's and Reese-Moggs not absolutely spitting feathers, have the ERG simply just stood aside? Hunt is essentially running the country now, yet he was first out in the leadership election with just 18 votes. Who has given him this power and why? Why aren't the press asking this question? Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power.
OS. I'm not sure he has got choices. I suspect when he's fully worked through the financial implications of this horror show he'll find he has to do both.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 19, 2022 12:26:19 GMT
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 19, 2022 12:33:14 GMT
I hear all that, Paul, but the fact that he has a reputation as a 'One Nation' socially-liberal Remainer (much like Cameron and others in the Cabinet during those first five years), doesn't alter the fact that he's economically right-wing, favouring a low-tax, market-led economy. He may be more fiscally responsible and less radical than Kwarteng, but the differences lie only in the methodology; in the long run, he wants exactly the same things. Don't think you can use the word 'only' there mate. The methodology is absolutely key here and is exactly what I was referring to. And Tufton Street and the right of the right (if that makes sense) in government, see things very differently to Hunt. The mini-budget would never have happened had he been in the Treasury at the time.
Fair enough. You're referring to methods and I'm focusing on longer-term objectives. It particularly rankles when I hear people talking about a bloke who called for the NHS to be privatised (before 2012, obviously) being on the 'left' of the party.
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2022 12:35:03 GMT
Always a pleasure to watch the toys get torn a new one in PMQs.
At least Liz said sorry though so it's all OK.
Was surprised to see David Jones from the Welsh conservatives pipe up and enquire about benefits rising with inflation. He must be getting pretty worried about retaining his seat for that to concern him.
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Post by ChesterStokie on Oct 19, 2022 12:40:16 GMT
Which begs the question: was Hunt appointed by the dark forces in that video or by some in the Tory Party who don't want the ultra-liberal ideals they stand for? We'll soon know when Hunt delivers his updated austerity package at the end of the month. He has choices... hit the workers or impose windfall taxes on those who fund those who have pushed Truss into power. OS. Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up. That's a very good question and I think you guys are over complicating it with talk of conspiracy theories etc. I think what has happened is that almost all politicians (right through from the Labour Party to the right wing of the Tory party) have had their heads in the sands for years and didn't see this coming and have been totally spooked by what's happened in the markets since the catastrophic mini-budget, have actually taken on board some of what Jeremy Hunt has said, and have gone away to have a think about what fiscal responsibility means for them.
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2022 12:54:06 GMT
What do you make of the public order bill mrcokeI'm by no means trying to target you BTW but just interested to get the opinion of someone who was very pro getting control of our own laws as part of brexit. To me this bill seems like something you'd expect in a Chinese regime were protestor are regularly brutalised. Do you support it? And if not, does it not concern you that if the toys can introduce bills like this, then what else can they do to remove our human rights?
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2022 12:54:46 GMT
Won't be long till the 1922 committee change their rules now.
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2022 12:55:48 GMT
In Lizz we Truss
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 13:05:21 GMT
Oh there's surely no doubt that it must have been the second of the two options you suggest Mick but what I don't get, is why has the right of the party (which includes members of her cabinet) caved in so quickly and so easily? Hunt's politics (from a right wing perspective) are the very antithesis of everything they stand for. And who exactly has given him this power? It really doesn't add up. That's a very good question and I think you guys are over complicating it with talk of conspiracy theories etc. I think what has happened is that almost all politicians (right through from the Labour Party to the right wing of the Tory party) have had their heads in the sands for years and didn't see this coming and have been totally spooked by what's happened in the markets since the catastrophic mini-budget, have actually taken on board some of what Jeremy Hunt has said, and have gone away to have a think about what fiscal responsibility means for them. To be fair CS I purposefully said I wasn't trying to concoct a conspiracy as an explanation. I'm not sure MP's 'not seeing it coming' adds up either if I'm honest. Sunak spent all summer warning them what would happen and urged them not to do it. The very reason they removed Scohlar straight away is because he would have blocked them. These are the people I'm referring to ... do you think this nutter has ever gone away to reflect on anything? Why is she so quiet on the appointment of Hunt?
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Post by gawa on Oct 19, 2022 13:09:56 GMT
More media dodging
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 19, 2022 13:10:35 GMT
Meh they said exactly the same stuff about Corbyn after the landslide in 2019. If the Tories have got any sense (which they don't) they'd call an election tomorrow, let Starmer deal with this shit show two years, sack Truss, rebuild and at least give yourself half a chance for the 2023 election. What's more likely is a suicidal approach of bringing in shit heads like Sunak or Hunt to run the next two years, lose the election but argue "it wasn't as bad as it could have been" and let the losing leader carry on with the pretext being that "they did much better than expected". Whatever the outcome, the Conservative party will get their chance again, hopefully with a competent leader. These are strange times for sure, similar to Blair, Starmer will probably prove a marginally more right wing leader than Boris, Truss, Sunak etc, particularly given he'll be under so much pressure to please his new seats and friends in financial services. Got to love left wing posters on here cheering on a guy who isnt remotely aligned to their ideology. Either way, it's time for change.
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 19, 2022 13:11:17 GMT
Don't think you can use the word 'only' there mate. The methodology is absolutely key here and is exactly what I was referring to. And Tufton Street and the right of the right (if that makes sense) in government, see things very differently to Hunt. The mini-budget would never have happened had he been in the Treasury at the time.
Fair enough. You're referring to methods and I'm focusing on longer-term objectives. It particularly rankles when I hear people talking about a bloke who called for the NHS to be privatised (before 2012, obviously) being on the 'left' of the party. I don't think he's on the left of the party. He's what we used to call a 'Responsible Conservative.' Yes, he's always wanted to privatize the NHS but that's nothing new. The Tories didn't want it in the first place and they've never funded it properly when they've been in power. But that was still 'Responsible Conservatism'. But what's happening now is that this Tufton Street mob are an entirely different entity, even more neoliberal than even the ERG, which is the extreme right-wing of the Tory Party. 100's of Tories are likely to lose their seats (and therefore their power) if Truss and Kwarteng continued with their Tufton Street ideology and I reckon they've put a middle-of-the-road 'Responsible Conservative' in charge to try and steady the ship. I don't think it will work but it might limit the damage that would have happened had they not reigned in Truss and Kwarteng. That's what I think anyway. But as Paul has been saying, it's damned strange that Hunt has been imposed on Truss. But it does show what a weak front she was for this damned Tufton Street mob. OS.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 19, 2022 13:12:48 GMT
Won't be long till the 1922 committee change their rules now. They said on Politics Live earlier, that he has received over a hundred but would need around 175 to trigger the change.
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Post by adri2008 on Oct 19, 2022 13:16:51 GMT
Whoever is in power for the next 1/2 decade or so (if not longer) is going to be clearing up the mess of the past few years not to mention the aftermath of 2008 which was merely delayed with ridiculously low interest rates and cheap money. These times have now passed so difficult decisions are going to have to be made i.e. higher taxes and it won't just be the wealthy who are going to be paying them.
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