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Post by yeokel on Oct 8, 2022 11:23:38 GMT
You seem to be the one listening to those who claim we are the “fifth/sixth richest country in the world”. We have a close to three trillion pound national debt. £3,000,000,000,000 We are not a rich country by any means and people should stop kidding themselves that we are. That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. “If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible,” I agree with that. The snag is that there is no single “we” is there? We all have differing views and opinions about what is important to us individually, and collectively. So, the redistribution that you personally desire will never happen as it’s not the same as the redistribution that I desire, or Bianco desires, or Oggy, or Huddy, or my mum! So, given the above, we must deal with the situation as it is rather than as we would like it to be and, it seems to me that we cannot afford to fully fund the NHS in its current form, so that form must be changed.
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Post by yeokel on Oct 8, 2022 11:25:20 GMT
You seem to be the one listening to those who claim we are the “fifth/sixth richest country in the world”. We have a close to three trillion pound national debt. £3,000,000,000,000 We are not a rich country by any means and people should stop kidding themselves that we are. That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. GDP is not the same as wealth.
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Post by gawa on Oct 8, 2022 11:44:57 GMT
henry look another example of your great wisdom being right.
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Post by gawa on Oct 8, 2022 11:48:50 GMT
I agree, but given that Covid discussions (as demonstrated by the Covid thread) nearly always descend into a position taking debate between people who put up with lockdowns because they could see that it was the way to minimise spread, prevent more people dying than already had and would help to prevent overload in the NHS and, on the other side, those who thought (think?) that it was all some kind of fake, totalitarian, never-ending, population-controlling power grab co-ordinated by all governments and all news media across the world, maybe the Covid thread is the better place for it? We'll just end up with two identical threads! It's good comedy. "Staunch remainer can't afford food and bills after government shut down economy for two years. Blames brexit" 😂😂 I think what's funnier is "Staunch Tory supporter experiencing a manic episode who can't afford food or bills blames the parties which haven't governed for 12 years for 10 years of austerity, lockdowns and the worst economy in decades (Goverment debt was already at record levels prior to covid being a thing)"
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 8, 2022 11:54:25 GMT
It's good comedy. "Staunch remainer can't afford food and bills after government shut down economy for two years. Blames brexit" 😂😂 I think what's funnier is "Staunch Tory supporter experiencing a manic episode who can't afford food or bills blames the parties which haven't governed for 12 years for 10 years of austerity, lockdowns and the worst economy in decades (Goverment debt was already at record levels prior to covid being a thing)" Staunch Tory supporter? Literally no idea what you're on about. You still pissed from last night?
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Post by gawa on Oct 8, 2022 12:31:01 GMT
I think what's funnier is "Staunch Tory supporter experiencing a manic episode who can't afford food or bills blames the parties which haven't governed for 12 years for 10 years of austerity, lockdowns and the worst economy in decades (Goverment debt was already at record levels prior to covid being a thing)" Staunch Tory supporter? Literally no idea what you're on about. You still pissed from last night? You wouldn't, hench the manic episode. If we go back to the football analogy to make it easier for you: Stoke City (Conservative party) have seen the club relegated through mismanagement with a number of poor performances in the seasons since which has left fans disillusioned. However rather than hold the owners or managers to account for this. Bianca instead blames the Port Vale (Labour) owner and managers as though they had any influence or impact on 12 years of poor decisions. Feel free to pretend you're not a Tory supporter though. Just a bit weird for someone who isn't a Tory supporter to use their scatter gun and blame everyone besides the Tory's. Tell me more about how the labour government implemented lockdowns again . And please tell me more about how all the debt is solely due to covid lockdowns too (which are somehow labours fault in your deluded mind). This graph here to me suggests the country was in records levels of debt before covid even started: What next for you? Starmer was actually wearing a Chris Pincher mask a few months ago and it was him doing the willy tugging and not a Tory? Keep pretending you're not a Tory supporter though fella. Tbh you're not a very good one, I'll give you that, hide under the covers when things go wrong and too embarrassed to stand by your opinions so you try to distance yourself. But still on the sidelines you continue to blame everyone bar the one party that has done every single thing which you're criticising.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 8, 2022 12:48:43 GMT
That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. GDP is not the same as wealth. Agreed , there are many ways of measuring it, some posted above. The UK is 26th richest on this list: www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/Note there are other G7 countries below the UK. Debt is only significant in that it has to be funded, I.e. interest payments. It's never actually paid back. Again most of the G7 have bigger debt relative to GDP than the UK, although the present government are working hard on getting us up the league table!!! Personal debt is massive but essentially we owe that to each other. We pay the banks what we owe and they lend it to the government or commerce to create jobs. It goes round. Another issue is how the wealth is shared out. UK is poor in this respect but everything is relative. I have spent time in India, now the 5th largest economy in the world, going into the most modern steel works in the world (along with China) driving past women washing clothes in the river and sweeping the road with besom brushes.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2022 13:19:12 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2022 13:39:45 GMT
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 8, 2022 13:39:54 GMT
Staunch Tory supporter? Literally no idea what you're on about. You still pissed from last night? You wouldn't, hench the manic episode. If we go back to the football analogy to make it easier for you: Stoke City (Conservative party) have seen the club relegated through mismanagement with a number of poor performances in the seasons since which has left fans disillusioned. However rather than hold the owners or managers to account for this. Bianca instead blames the Port Vale (Labour) owner and managers as though they had any influence or impact on 12 years of poor decisions. Feel free to pretend you're not a Tory supporter though. Just a bit weird for someone who isn't a Tory supporter to use their scatter gun and blame everyone besides the Tory's. Tell me more about how the labour government implemented lockdowns again . And please tell me more about how all the debt is solely due to covid lockdowns too (which are somehow labours fault in your deluded mind). This graph here to me suggests the country was in records levels of debt before covid even started: What next for you? Starmer was actually wearing a Chris Pincher mask a few months ago and it was him doing the willy tugging and not a Tory? Keep pretending you're not a Tory supporter though fella. Tbh you're not a very good one, I'll give you that, hide under the covers when things go wrong and too embarrassed to stand by your opinions so you try to distance yourself. But still on the sidelines you continue to blame everyone bar the one party that has done every single thing which you're criticising. 😂🤦♂️
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2022 13:56:18 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Oct 8, 2022 14:38:38 GMT
You wouldn't, hench the manic episode. If we go back to the football analogy to make it easier for you: Stoke City (Conservative party) have seen the club relegated through mismanagement with a number of poor performances in the seasons since which has left fans disillusioned. However rather than hold the owners or managers to account for this. Bianca instead blames the Port Vale (Labour) owner and managers as though they had any influence or impact on 12 years of poor decisions. Feel free to pretend you're not a Tory supporter though. Just a bit weird for someone who isn't a Tory supporter to use their scatter gun and blame everyone besides the Tory's. Tell me more about how the labour government implemented lockdowns again . And please tell me more about how all the debt is solely due to covid lockdowns too (which are somehow labours fault in your deluded mind). This graph here to me suggests the country was in records levels of debt before covid even started: What next for you? Starmer was actually wearing a Chris Pincher mask a few months ago and it was him doing the willy tugging and not a Tory? Keep pretending you're not a Tory supporter though fella. Tbh you're not a very good one, I'll give you that, hide under the covers when things go wrong and too embarrassed to stand by your opinions so you try to distance yourself. But still on the sidelines you continue to blame everyone bar the one party that has done every single thing which you're criticising. 😂🤦♂️ I think we've found another alt. Interesting approach though, the whole N Ireland/MON backstory 😉
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 8, 2022 15:25:50 GMT
That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. “If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible,” I agree with that. The snag is that there is no single “we” is there? We all have differing views and opinions about what is important to us individually, and collectively. So, the redistribution that you personally desire will never happen as it’s not the same as the redistribution that I desire, or Bianco desires, or Oggy, or Huddy, or my mum! So, given the above, we must deal with the situation as it is rather than as we would like it to be and, it seems to me that we cannot afford to fully fund the NHS in its current form, so that form must be changed. You're right in that there is rarely a single "we" which is unanimous about how to go about things. Politics threads would be very short and dull if that were the case! However, there are issues about which most people seem to concur and one of those is that people like having an NHS which is free at the point of use. They also agree, again generally, that, when asked, they don't object to paying more tax if that was to fund such a health service. And yet, when it comes to it, at election time, most people get swayed by that duplicitous promise that paying less tax will make their lives better. And almost all parties promise to keep taxes low, instead of saying, you know what, actually rich people will pay more and it'll help to improve public services. If you want a comparison of where proper funding gets you, just look at the British Olympic team which improved massively when it got lottery funding and transformed from being an amateurish organisation to a much more professional outfit which now finishes second or third in the medals table. As I say, we want great services in this country, just don't want to pay for them. It's odd. And what's odder, is that if we do reform the NHS away from the current model, most people will probably end up paying a lot more for what are likely to be similar levels of service and health outcomes, as the US model demonstrates only too well. But to come back to the main point, the money is in this country to fix most of its problems. The political will isn't.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 8, 2022 15:26:39 GMT
That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. GDP is not the same as wealth. Just google richest countries in the world and see what you get.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2022 16:22:11 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2022 22:33:58 GMT
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 8, 2022 23:31:31 GMT
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 8, 2022 23:48:24 GMT
The Tory party the touchy illegal feely party Burns sacked for touching young man's thigh At least 4 Tory Male mps now www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit
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Post by essexstokey on Oct 9, 2022 13:25:08 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2022 13:46:10 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2022 13:49:16 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2022 13:53:48 GMT
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Post by toppercorner on Oct 9, 2022 17:13:32 GMT
long term, it's just more tax for the rest of us to pay for non-tax paying businesses, in the freeport areas.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 9, 2022 18:07:08 GMT
How on earth can the PM be at complete loggerheads with her Home Secretary just one month after appointing her? We're being run by complete fuckwits.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2022 19:04:47 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 10, 2022 6:46:18 GMT
That's because we are... globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/Our annual GDP is about £2tn. And then there is individual wealth to account for too. If we wanted to sort out this country's problems we could. When I say "we" I mean everyone, the government, the electorate, everyone. For reasons I can never really fathom, there doesn't seem to be much collective will to do so. Perhaps people just don't believe that it's possible, or that we have the money. We do, it's just that a tiny proportion of people own and control an awful lot of it and don't want to share, and the government and electorate don't seem to want to enact legislation which would re-distribute enough of that wealth to tackle the country's problems. They're not insurmountable, just little or no collective will to deal with them in a meaningful way. GDP is not the same as wealth. Isn’t that the precise problem with the “growth, growth, growth” strategy? I don’t care if GDP rises because the biggest 100 companies here are doing well. I want to see the poor getting richer and inequality decreasing as a result.
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Post by Veritas on Oct 10, 2022 7:57:33 GMT
GDP is not the same as wealth. Isn’t that the precise problem with the “growth, growth, growth” strategy? I don’t care if GDP rises because the biggest 100 companies here are doing well. I want to see the poor getting richer and inequality decreasing as a result. Quite right there is already more than enough for everyone to have a decent share.
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Post by phileetin on Oct 10, 2022 9:27:45 GMT
Isn’t that the precise problem with the “growth, growth, growth” strategy? I don’t care if GDP rises because the biggest 100 companies here are doing well. I want to see the poor getting richer and inequality decreasing as a result. Quite right there is already more than enough for everyone to have a decent share.
i dont mind everybody having a decent share of the pot as long as everybody puts the same effort in creating the pot .
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Post by dexter97 on Oct 10, 2022 11:26:44 GMT
Quite right there is already more than enough for everyone to have a decent share. i dont mind everybody having a decent share of the pot as long as everybody puts the same effort in creating the pot .
How do you define 'effort'? If a person's wealth were simply a reflection of how hard they work, the distribution of the pot would look quite different.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 10, 2022 11:28:21 GMT
Quite right there is already more than enough for everyone to have a decent share.
i dont mind everybody having a decent share of the pot as long as everybody puts the same effort in creating the pot .
It's funny how many people will say this, and then when election time comes around, vote for the party which is most likely to prevent "everybody having a decent share of the pot". Tax breaks for the richest being the most obvious recent example, since dropped due to the outcry, but it remains the basic philosophy and ideology that underpins the Conservative party and pretty much as far away from "everybody having a decent share of the pot" as you can get. Cue something along the lines of benefits scroungers, migrants etc.
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