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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 21, 2023 21:40:27 GMT
This whole bullying thing is little more than a smokescreen really, deflecting attention away from what is the real issue: that this is a failing government with many ministers very much out of their depths, struggling to deal with the consequences of their own most significant policies: Brexit and austerity.
We've had dozens of governments of different flavours and parties and characters over the years, all of whom rubbed along well enough with the civil service. None of whom fucked the country to the degree that this lot have. That's the crux of the problem.
To me, this row smells of two things principally: first, the obvious frustration being revealed by not very bright or capable people like Raab, Patel, Braverman, Davis etc when told by the civil service that "we can't do xyz that you want because it's illegal now we've left the EU until you sort out new legislation" and two, the recognition among senior Tory MPs and their client Press that they need something to blame other than Brexit and austerity for the shit state of the country because Brexit and austerity were the ideas of precisely those senior Tories and Press owners. The civil service will do, amongst other convenient distractions.
Absolutely no surprise to see those on here who respond so well to authoritarianism and knowing their place in the right order of things tending to side with Raab.
I expect to see the Mail, Express, Telegraph and probably The Sun going to town tomorrow on how soft the civil service has become. It'll effectively be their fault the country is in the state it is! Quite looking forward to the letters page of the Telegraph, to be honest, it's going to be bonkers, full of retired military types saying how it was in their day! "A man could be skinned alive for just looking at a colonel without due respect and by jove we had the best army in the world back then".
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Post by Han Solo on Apr 21, 2023 21:58:05 GMT
There has to be some respect for those at the top though. I have to say the best supervisors and teachers I’ve had have all commanded a bit of respect without them being what I’d class as bullies. Did I hate them sometimes? Yes. Did I respect them and did they make me better? Yes. Was Alex Ferguson a bully? Some would say yes. Was he respected? Yes. Liked? By most yes. Successful and got the best out of his players? Yes. Working in Schools one of the biggest issues is a lack of respect. Swearing at teachers powerless to do anything because the kids think they can say what they want (especially to the short in service) and call them what they want. It’s all about balance and whether you want to be successful. There has to be a limit in relation to bullying but you can’t have bosses that are walkovers or nothing will get done by the workers. The best ones are not bullies steel sure but the bullies are bad teachers and poor managers As you say balance is important re Raab it's perfectly clear he is a bully and a poor managers well as being a terrible minister The remaining issue is Sunak failing to sack another disfunctional bullying idiot of a minister I don’t know much about the case so can’t really comment but I hate bullying. I’m sure my opinions differ to others but this is what I measure by. **traits of a bully** - Someone that gets personal and abusive for no justifiable reason and without provocation. - Targets the weak and those that they know won’t fight back both verbally and physically. - Likes to jump in with a pack when targeting someone on their own. - Gets personal when they don’t have a rational argument. **not a bully** - Straight talking. - Honest. - Gives it back if targeted. Of course often it can depend in the type of work you’re in as to the levels of behaviour that are acceptable and there has to be a certain amount of resilience if you’re being told what to do.
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 8:07:00 GMT
I love how people who call out bullying behaviour and abuse then resort to personal abuse and bullying behaviour to make their point, the lack of self awareness is staggering. Posters are bullied on here every day and there are bullies in this very thread.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 22, 2023 8:18:12 GMT
I love how people who call out bullying behaviour and abuse then resort to personal abuse and bullying behaviour to make their point, the lack of self awareness is staggering. Posters are bullied on here every day and there are bullies in this very thread. Well in that case Raab did nothing wrong….
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 8:23:51 GMT
I love how people who call out bullying behaviour and abuse then resort to personal abuse and bullying behaviour to make their point, the lack of self awareness is staggering. Posters are bullied on here every day and there are bullies in this very thread. Well in that case Raab did nothing wrong…. Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too.
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Post by Han Solo on Apr 22, 2023 8:30:03 GMT
I love how people who call out bullying behaviour and abuse then resort to personal abuse and bullying behaviour to make their point, the lack of self awareness is staggering. Posters are bullied on here every day and there are bullies in this very thread. Spot on and it’s not just on here but all over social media and in life where people judge others for indiscretions then behave in similar ways themselves. It’s a big problem and why the mental health thread is such a good one because it’s nice to have somewhere where everyone’s there to support and there’s no malice. Ultimately no one’s perfect but with social media people get the opportunity to be judge and executioner and for those in the firing line it can be very traumatic. Caroline Flack being the perfect example. Absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but it’s when it becomes personal that it crosses the line and becomes bullying. Thankfully there’s some really good posters on here from both sides of the political spectrum too.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 22, 2023 8:50:35 GMT
Well in that case Raab did nothing wrong…. Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too. That being the case, it’s good to see an instance of bullying called out then, surely, like Raab has been?
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Apr 22, 2023 9:02:20 GMT
Well in that case Raab did nothing wrong…. Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too. This is not a place of work and most posters here are doing so under usernames. It really isn't the same.
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Post by toppercorner on Apr 22, 2023 9:05:13 GMT
With regards to Raab, people seem to have overlooked the fact that 6/8 claims against him were not upheld, and only 2 were, which kind of indicates that the process is working well.
But nothing says "I'm not a bully" like getting your say in first, on the front page of a national newspaper saying the country "will pay" for his resignation, a 5 month pay off from ministerial duties, and a slot on the poisonous propaganda channel (K)GB News to the tune of an extra £100k per year, whereby you can air your grievances with no blowback.
He should left office after the Kabul debacle. Good riddance.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 22, 2023 9:08:49 GMT
But that's only one part of the report. He was sacked due to multiple findings such as: - Intimidating and persistently aggressive in meetings. - Abuse and misuse of power to undermine and humiliate others - went beyond what was necessary to add effect to his decisions and introduced a punishment element. - His behaviour was bound to make others feel undermined and humiliated without doubt and that he would have been aware of this at the time. - his conduct was abusive - would extend his hands out to people's faces mid sentence to make them stop talking - Tried to suggest servants were breaching ministerial code and threatened to sack them as they'd be in breach of contract when it wasn't the case. That along with the other stuff you posted seems like workplace bullying to me. Describing someone's work as woeful as a one off isn't bullying. Taking things out of context to defend an abusive, intimidating, punitive, humiliation inflicting, aggressive individual could be seen as defending bullying to. Is Dominic Raab really worth that defence? Is any MP worth that defence left or right? We must be made of different stuff. Your opinion, Gawa's and indeed mine are irrelevant to the outcome The findings were of Adam Tolley KC who examined all the evidence Tolley specialises in Employment Law and advices Government and Employers on Employment Law Are you saying Tolley's findings should be ignored?
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Post by Han Solo on Apr 22, 2023 9:12:32 GMT
Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too. This is not a place of work and most posters here are doing so under usernames. It really isn't the same. It shows a trait though re their behaviour away from the keyboard. Either that or they’re just not being themselves.
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Post by lordb on Apr 22, 2023 9:20:23 GMT
The best ones are not bullies steel sure but the bullies are bad teachers and poor managers As you say balance is important re Raab it's perfectly clear he is a bully and a poor managers well as being a terrible minister The remaining issue is Sunak failing to sack another disfunctional bullying idiot of a minister I don’t know much about the case so can’t really comment but I hate bullying. I’m sure my opinions differ to others but this is what I measure by. **traits of a bully** - Someone that gets personal and abusive for no justifiable reason and without provocation. - Targets the weak and those that they know won’t fight back both verbally and physically. - Likes to jump in with a pack when targeting someone on their own. - Gets personal when they don’t have a rational argument. **not a bully** - Straight talking. - Honest. - Gives it back if targeted. Of course often it can depend in the type of work you’re in as to the levels of behaviour that are acceptable and there has to be a certain amount of resilience if you’re being told what to do. Fortunately there is an independent report that's just been published verifying that Raab is a bully
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Post by Han Solo on Apr 22, 2023 9:24:17 GMT
I don’t know much about the case so can’t really comment but I hate bullying. I’m sure my opinions differ to others but this is what I measure by. **traits of a bully** - Someone that gets personal and abusive for no justifiable reason and without provocation. - Targets the weak and those that they know won’t fight back both verbally and physically. - Likes to jump in with a pack when targeting someone on their own. - Gets personal when they don’t have a rational argument. **not a bully** - Straight talking. - Honest. - Gives it back if targeted. Of course often it can depend in the type of work you’re in as to the levels of behaviour that are acceptable and there has to be a certain amount of resilience if you’re being told what to do. Fortunately there is an independent report that's just been published verifying that Raab is a bully As I said I don’t know much about the case but if he has been identified as a bully he needs booting out.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 22, 2023 9:25:11 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Apr 22, 2023 9:56:17 GMT
Raab's lack of self awareness endorsed by Right Wing Conservative Supporting Newspapers. Whoever would have guessed
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Post by lordb on Apr 22, 2023 9:57:46 GMT
Fortunately there is an independent report that's just been published verifying that Raab is a bully As I said I don’t know much about the case but if he has been identified as a bully he needs booting out. There isn't an if, he has
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 10:05:26 GMT
Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too. This is not a place of work and most posters here are doing so under usernames. It really isn't the same. So some bullying is ok some not I tend to disagree.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Apr 22, 2023 10:10:26 GMT
This is not a place of work and most posters here are doing so under usernames. It really isn't the same. So some bullying is ok some not I tend to disagree. It's never OK, and don't think that's what he is suggesting. However, bullying on here (for example) cannot be compared with bullying in the workplace, and in particular where the perpetrator is in a position of authority/power.
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 10:14:21 GMT
Well let's be honest don't call out bullies while being a bully yourself (not you) I'm sure there will be excuses and more bullying to justify the behaviour but there is passive aggression, personal abuse, belittling behaviour in this and most other threads in this message board. If you are applying the same levels being discussed regarding Rabb then you have to agree its rife here too. That being the case, it’s good to see an instance of bullying called out then, surely, like Raab has been? Absolutely but just because I disagree you used the same tactics, passive aggression sarcasm and belittling of my opinion ref the toilet comment. Now I'm sure you agree its down to me to decide if I felt offended not you and im sure you'd apologise for the comment but nevertheless you posted and caused offence. I'm sure my opinion has caused some constanation but some of the replies imo are condescending, passive aggressive, belittling and are exactly what is being condemned bullying and no excuses will alter the fact.
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 10:15:01 GMT
So some bullying is ok some not I tend to disagree. It's never OK, and don't think that's what he is suggesting. However, bullying on here (for example) cannot be compared with bullying in the workplace, and in particular where the perpetrator is in a position of authority/power. Another excuse bullying is bullying.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 22, 2023 10:16:21 GMT
Lord Lilley (Peter Lilley, for those who remember him): "If these sorts of standards had applied....we'd have found it quite difficult to win both world wars". You've got to laugh, haven't you, as I'm sure Lord Lilley is, having a good old wheeze with his chums, "Did you see the bollocks I came out with about the war again for Raab? Marvellous, wasn't it!" Always about the bloody war with these dinosaurs, isn't it! It ended the best part of a century ago, get over it, move on. Even if you do still live in a delusional world where little old England single-handedly fought off the Nazi hordes, it's not relevant any more.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 22, 2023 10:17:29 GMT
That being the case, it’s good to see an instance of bullying called out then, surely, like Raab has been? Absolutely but just because I disagree you used the same tactics, passive aggression sarcasm and belittling of my opinion ref the toilet comment. Now I'm sure you agree its down to me to decide if I felt offended not you and im sure you'd apologise for the comment but nevertheless you posted and caused offence. I'm sure my opinion has caused some constanation but some of the replies imo are condescending, passive aggressive, belittling and are exactly what is being condemned bullying and no excuses will alter the fact. So just so we’re clear, my post questioning your opinion (a question you haven’t answered) does constitute bullying, but what an independent report found Dominic Raab guilty of doesn’t. Got it.
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Post by wannabee on Apr 22, 2023 10:24:22 GMT
Lord Lilley (Peter Lilley, for those who remember him): "If these sorts of standards had applied....we'd have found it quite difficult to win both world wars". You've got to laugh, haven't you, as I'm sure Lord Lilley is, having a good old wheeze with his chums, "Did you see the bollocks I came out with about the war again for Raab? Marvellous, wasn't it!" Always about the bloody war with these dinosaurs, isn't it! It ended the best part of a century ago, get over it, move on. Even if you do still live in a delusional world where little old England single-handedly fought off the Nazi hordes, it's not relevant any more. Always a good idea to mention the War especially for Daily Fail readers No further logical argument is then required to justify your ridiculous premise
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 10:27:52 GMT
Absolutely but just because I disagree you used the same tactics, passive aggression sarcasm and belittling of my opinion ref the toilet comment. Now I'm sure you agree its down to me to decide if I felt offended not you and im sure you'd apologise for the comment but nevertheless you posted and caused offence. I'm sure my opinion has caused some constanation but some of the replies imo are condescending, passive aggressive, belittling and are exactly what is being condemned bullying and no excuses will alter the fact. So just so we’re clear, my post questioning your opinion (a question you haven’t answered) does constitute bullying, but what an independent report found Dominic Raab guilty of doesn’t. Got it. You're doing it again exactly what you've condemned. If you cant see it I'm sorry but there you go.
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Post by oggyoggy on Apr 22, 2023 10:35:58 GMT
And, entirely as predicted, there we go.... They shouldn’t be allowed to call themselves newspapers.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 22, 2023 10:37:27 GMT
So just so we’re clear, my post questioning your opinion (a question you haven’t answered) does constitute bullying, but what an independent report found Dominic Raab guilty of doesn’t. Got it. You're doing it again exactly what you've condemned. If you cant see it I'm sorry but there you go. You seem to consider any questioning of your viewpoint ‘bullying’? You’re peddling two different, incompatible viewpoints here Franklin: 1) What the report concluded Raab was guilty of isn’t bullying to anyone made of ‘different stuff’ 2) Anyone questioning your opinion is a mean old bully? At least pick one, like?
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Post by str8outtahampton on Apr 22, 2023 10:39:18 GMT
It's never OK, and don't think that's what he is suggesting. However, bullying on here (for example) cannot be compared with bullying in the workplace, and in particular where the perpetrator is in a position of authority/power. Another excuse bullying is bullying. It's demonstrably not an excuse - as I suggested, it (bullying) is never OK. But the comparison is flawed. I choose to participate on here. I don't rely on participation to pay my mortgage or feed my family. If I felt bullied by a poster, I would have a number of options (none of them realistically available to someone in the workplace), including retaliation in kind or ending the dialogue. In my view the former is rarely a good idea - the latter is generally a much more effective way forward.
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Post by franklin on Apr 22, 2023 10:58:24 GMT
You're doing it again exactly what you've condemned. If you cant see it I'm sorry but there you go. You seem to consider any questioning of your viewpoint ‘bullying’? You’re peddling two different, incompatible viewpoints here Franklin: 1) What the report concluded Raab was guilty of isn’t bullying to anyone made of ‘different stuff’ 2) Anyone questioning your opinion is a mean old bully? At least pick one, like? I was asked if I thought what Rabb had done constituents bullying my opinion was no and is still no although I accept the result if the enquiry. However: Now I'm peddling two things you're right I'm holding those who condemned the abuse by Rabb to the same scrutiny of their behaviour towards me. You've used those same tactics on me (you're not the only one) that you condemned but I actually don't feel bullied I'm making a point. My opinion of bullying or a bully: A group of people or person who use abuse ,sarcasm and belittling behaviour to control another all of which I've been subject too in the last 24hrs. Do I believe there is bullying on here yes every day is there bullies on here yes there is and it's as clear as day. So to clarify at what point does the behaviour on here become bullying, well using the Rabb incident as a guide all the time and every day.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 22, 2023 11:03:18 GMT
You seem to consider any questioning of your viewpoint ‘bullying’? You’re peddling two different, incompatible viewpoints here Franklin: 1) What the report concluded Raab was guilty of isn’t bullying to anyone made of ‘different stuff’ 2) Anyone questioning your opinion is a mean old bully? At least pick one, like? I was asked if I thought what Rabb had done constituents bullying my opinion was no and is still no although I accept the result if the enquiry. However: Now I'm peddling two things you're right I'm holding those who condemned the abuse by Rabb to the same scrutiny of their behaviour towards me. You've used those same tactics on me (you're not the only one) that you condemned but I actually don't feel bullied I'm making a point. My opinion of bullying or a bully: A group of people or person who use abuse ,sarcasm and belittling behaviour to control another all of which I've been subject too in the last 24hrs. Do I believe there is bullying on here yes every day is there bullies on here yes there is and it's as clear as day. So to clarify at what point does the behaviour on here become bullying, well using the Rabb incident as a guide all the time and every day. You seem to consider any questioning of your viewpoint ‘bullying’? You’re peddling two different, incompatible viewpoints here Franklin: 1) What the report concluded Raab was guilty of isn’t bullying to anyone made of ‘different stuff’ 2) Anyone questioning your opinion is a mean old bully? At least pick one, like? I was asked if I thought what Rabb had done constituents bullying my opinion was no and is still no although I accept the result if the enquiry. However: Now I'm peddling two things you're right I'm holding those who condemned the abuse by Rabb to the same scrutiny of their behaviour towards me. You've used those same tactics on me (you're not the only one) that you condemned but I actually don't feel bullied I'm making a point. My opinion of bullying or a bully: A group of people or person who use abuse ,sarcasm and belittling behaviour to control another all of which I've been subject too in the last 24hrs. Do I believe there is bullying on here yes every day is there bullies on here yes there is and it's as clear as day. So to clarify at what point does the behaviour on here become bullying, well using the Rabb incident as a guide all the time and every day. Yeah ‘using sarcasm’ isn’t bullying mate. And it what way is it being done to ‘control you’? People are questioning your view, that isn’t the same thing. You again seem to be equating people disagreeing with and questioning you with Raab’s behaviour, it’s a complete false equivalence. You say that your opinion of a bully is someone who uses abuse and belittles people, but Raab’s been found guilty of just those things and you’re saying that isn’t bullying, how does that work?
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Post by Han Solo on Apr 22, 2023 11:08:48 GMT
Definition of bullying is
“Bullying is when people deliberately use words or actions repeatedly against an individual or a group to cause physical, social and/or psychological harm. They usually want to make the person feel less powerful or helpless.”
I’d say that even if it’s online it’s bullying and there are plenty of examples where people have been arrested for the more extreme cases. The footballers that were racially abused being an example.
When people make comments they know nothing about the history of someone or their mental health. In the case of some they simply don’t care whether they know the person or not.
Ultimately there’s always the option to come off social media but it’s difficult particularly for the young as for some it’s their main means of talking to their mates.
Anonyminaty shouldn’t be a cover for bullying.
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