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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 16:23:01 GMT
Me too. A Tony Benn Brexit would have my full support. Shame we can't bring him back from the dead to sort this mess out! If this whole Brexit debate hadn't been conducted as a circus and both sides treated the public like they are as thick as two short planks then perhaps people wouldn't be as confused as they are. There has been no educated voice for Leave it's been taken over by the bigots, pompous and down right racists. That's the real shame here. Corbyn in my view should have been that voice. Some are trying (like Galloway) but you don't hear it. I don't think anyone can be blamed for their views on Brexit on that basis. The whole thing has been a shambles. Who are the leave leaders who are racists, just out of interest? And the uneducated ones? You know what I mean Tommy Robinson being associated it with and Nigel Farage... there hasn’t been a sensible voice and the whole thing has been conducted like a circus. It’s been too easy for the media to associate it with the racist and the stupid when there are sensible debates to be had about it and there’s not everyone who voted leave is racist and stupid which is what the media make out. It didn’t all have to be dumbed down into “I want my country back” and the like. The fact that Leave has been taken over by the Tories now and the Brexit party are a concern for me as a Labour supporter as i feel it will be used as a way to further extend capitalism and protections will be lost, what little we have left sold. So I don’t know if I’d vote for it now. But I’d be all in for Tony Benn Brexit...is that makes any sense.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 29, 2019 16:26:24 GMT
The referendum wasn’t about stopping immigration from Europe per-se, it was about taking back the power to set our own immigration laws (amongst other laws), that might not necessarily mean lowering immigration from Europe, it just means we decide and not Brussels. Power we had anyway! Do we really ?
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 29, 2019 16:30:47 GMT
It would if the DWP grew a pair along with the government and made it a part of their JSA agreements, if they are fit enough to work they should be made to work or stop their benefits simple and it could be done if there was a will. The DWP seem to be doing just that! Terminally ill man's last words after benefits refusal because he 'wasn't sick enough' - Mirror Online Appalling; What Sort Of Country Are We? t.co/4V5Q06OZ0oThat is disgusting but a totally different scenario and not comparable.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 16:37:38 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Aug 29, 2019 16:42:46 GMT
It's literally nothing like it 😂
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Post by thevoid on Aug 29, 2019 16:45:31 GMT
Tony Benn thought along your lines in that he thought the EU was a barrier to proper socialism. Prestwich said on a different thread that he wished Corbyn had backed Brexit to support the Labour heartlands but has been too keen to placate Blairites in the party(I am paraphrasing). I, personally, think Prestwich is right, and Jezza has missed a trick. Me too. A Tony Benn Brexit would have my full support. Shame we can't bring him back from the dead to sort this mess out! If this whole Brexit debate hadn't been conducted as a circus and both sides treated the public like they are as thick as two short planks then perhaps people wouldn't be as confused as they are. There has been no educated voice for Leave it's been taken over by the bigots, pompous and down right racists. That's the real shame here. Corbyn in my view should have been that voice. Some are trying (like Galloway) but you don't hear it. I don't think anyone can be blamed for their views on Brexit on that basis. The whole thing has been a shambles. Corbyn isn't that man though, he's nothing more than a puppet.
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 29, 2019 16:49:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 16:49:10 GMT
Me too. A Tony Benn Brexit would have my full support. Shame we can't bring him back from the dead to sort this mess out! If this whole Brexit debate hadn't been conducted as a circus and both sides treated the public like they are as thick as two short planks then perhaps people wouldn't be as confused as they are. There has been no educated voice for Leave it's been taken over by the bigots, pompous and down right racists. That's the real shame here. Corbyn in my view should have been that voice. Some are trying (like Galloway) but you don't hear it. I don't think anyone can be blamed for their views on Brexit on that basis. The whole thing has been a shambles. Corbyn isn't that man though, he's nothing more than a puppet. Well exactly. I feel disappointed as a Labour voter as I thought he would be.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 29, 2019 16:50:51 GMT
So long as there’s good will on both sides then a mutually beneficial deal is possible without either side having to take a major hit economically, only if there’s Ill will on one side will there be a problem, the eu cannot punish us with our sustaining damage to itself. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce. The EU know if the UK leaves they are in deep financial trouble and unable to sustain the CAP and regional aid to the poorer parts of the EU. Then there will be a lot of Europeans looking at an independant UK and wondering what are the benefits of being in the EU for them. Switzerland, our 5th biggest trading partner, and Norway are not in the EU, and many Europeans will say, let's be like Switzerland or Norway. The EU will start to fragment if the UK leave.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 29, 2019 16:51:18 GMT
It would if the DWP grew a pair along with the government and made it a part of their JSA agreements, if they are fit enough to work they should be made to work or stop their benefits simple and it could be done if there was a will. The DWP seem to be doing just that! Terminally ill man's last words after benefits refusal because he 'wasn't sick enough' - Mirror Online Appalling; What Sort Of Country Are We? t.co/4V5Q06OZ0oI used to work in a residential care home, and a palliative care resident was sent a form to attend an assessment. The manager had to send photos of the chair that they had to sit in to be fed, hoists etc. The assessments themselves are far from lenient. Basically, if you can make your way to the assessment centre you are deemed fit for work! I don't doubt that some people are taking the piss, but there is the other side, too.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 29, 2019 16:53:27 GMT
Corbyn isn't that man though, he's nothing more than a puppet. Well exactly. I feel disappointed as a Labour voter as I thought he would be. I think he could have pissed the election if he had backed a "workers Brexit".
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 16:58:15 GMT
It's literally nothing like it 😂 I dunno mate, I'll listen to one of Britain’s foremost historians of Germany and the Third Reich with interest
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:00:57 GMT
Well exactly. I feel disappointed as a Labour voter as I thought he would be. I think he could have pissed the election if he had backed a "workers Brexit". I completely agree. How easy it would have been to get that message without it being hi-jacked by the 'powers that be' through their media puppets is another matter! I think he's going to really regret this. He's played for a GE in my opinion and it's going to backfire. Boris isn't stupid. He's suspended Parliament and he looks to me he's forced Corbyn's hand and he'll just end looking like the attempted destroyer of Brexit. He's lost the old Labour supporters of Brexit and he's not going to recover with the Blarite types. He's lost the "workers" and his "middle classes". He should have stayed true to himself.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 17:04:28 GMT
Who are the leave leaders who are racists, just out of interest? And the uneducated ones? You know what I mean Tommy Robinson being associated it with and Nigel Farage... there hasn’t been a sensible voice and the whole thing has been conducted like a circus. It’s been too easy for the media to associate it with the racist and the stupid when there are sensible debates to be had about it and there’s not everyone who voted leave is racist and stupid which is what the media make out. It didn’t all have to be dumbed down into “I want my country back” and the like. The fact that Leave has been taken over by the Tories now and the Brexit party are a concern for me as a Labour supporter as i feel it will be used as a way to further extend capitalism and protections will be lost, what little we have left sold. So I don’t know if I’d vote for it now. But I’d be all in for Tony Benn Brexit...is that makes any sense. Yes, all white people are racist aren't they? Ridiculous Tommy Robinson has not been a leader of BREXIT.He has also done much to expose racism against white working class girls. Where is the evidence that Farage is a racist? Some very intelligent people within the BREXIT movement who have already achieved much. A ridiculous judgemental generalisation. And it's about the issues as 42 says not the personalities. You'll be calling Corbyn an anti-Semite next
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Post by serpico on Aug 29, 2019 17:08:23 GMT
It's literally nothing like it 😂 I dunno mate, I'll listen to one of Britain’s foremost historians of Germany and the Third Reich with interest What are his personal political leanings though ? ... Johnson is one of those characters, like trump, which cause people to lose all sense of perspective no matter if they’re intellectuals, historians, experts etc very difficult to get a totally objective anylisis these days such is the polarisarion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:11:13 GMT
You know what I mean Tommy Robinson being associated it with and Nigel Farage... there hasn’t been a sensible voice and the whole thing has been conducted like a circus. It’s been too easy for the media to associate it with the racist and the stupid when there are sensible debates to be had about it and there’s not everyone who voted leave is racist and stupid which is what the media make out. It didn’t all have to be dumbed down into “I want my country back” and the like. The fact that Leave has been taken over by the Tories now and the Brexit party are a concern for me as a Labour supporter as i feel it will be used as a way to further extend capitalism and protections will be lost, what little we have left sold. So I don’t know if I’d vote for it now. But I’d be all in for Tony Benn Brexit...is that makes any sense. Yes, all white people are racist aren't they? Ridiculous Tommy Robinson has not been a leader of BREXIT.He has also done much to expose racism against white working class girls. Where is the evidence that Farage is a racist? Some very intelligent people within the BREXIT movement who have already achieved much. A ridiculous judgemental generalisation. And it's about the issues as 42 says not the personalities. I never said 'leaders' of Brexit or that Nigel Farage is racist - I said there hasn't been a sensible voice on the Labour side for Brexit. There hasn't been. I'm saying that in the absence of this whole thing being treated like a circus it's been too easy for the media to paint the "Leave" argument as stupid and racist. I think you don't understand what I'm saying because the point I am making is that there are strong arguments for Leave (especially on the left wing) and its not just that. You clearly don't understand the conversation we were having here so why don't you just stay out of it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 17:18:38 GMT
Yes, all white people are racist aren't they? Ridiculous Tommy Robinson has not been a leader of BREXIT.He has also done much to expose racism against white working class girls. Where is the evidence that Farage is a racist? Some very intelligent people within the BREXIT movement who have already achieved much. A ridiculous judgemental generalisation. And it's about the issues as 42 says not the personalities. I never said 'leaders' of Brexit or that Nigel Farage is racist - I said there hasn't been a sensible voice on the Labour side for Brexit. There hasn't been. I'm saying that in the absence of this whole thing being treated like a circus it's been too easy for the media to paint the "Leave" argument as stupid and racist. I think you don't understand what I'm saying because the point I am making is that there are strong arguments for Leave (especially on the left wing) and its not just that. You clearly don't understand the conversation we were having here so why don't you just stay out of it. It's an open forum message board. I do understand that you want to undermine the Leave case using untrue generalisations/personal attributions. Let's see where your conversation goes from here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:28:38 GMT
I never said 'leaders' of Brexit or that Nigel Farage is racist - I said there hasn't been a sensible voice on the Labour side for Brexit. There hasn't been. I'm saying that in the absence of this whole thing being treated like a circus it's been too easy for the media to paint the "Leave" argument as stupid and racist. I think you don't understand what I'm saying because the point I am making is that there are strong arguments for Leave (especially on the left wing) and its not just that. You clearly don't understand the conversation we were having here so why don't you just stay out of it. It's an open forum message board. I do understand that you want to undermine the Leave case using untrue generalisations/personal attributions. Let's see where your conversation goes from here. I am saying it has been too easy for the media to that because there hasn't been a sensible voice on the Labour side. I am agreeing with you that there are untrue generalisation and personal attributions. I was too harsh with my last post because I was annoyed you were accusing me of things I wasn't doing. I will give you an example of what I mean by this: Take this statement: "All the foreigners are taking our jobs". This to me has been too easy for people to paint as people being racist and stupid. A true old Labour voice here would be saying things along the lines of "the issues are (1) the lack of jobs in certain areas due to the inequality of wealth across the UK which make this a problem and/or, if you want to go really old school original trade union-stylee, (2) uncontrolled immigration has created a large pool of workers competing for the jobs and therefore it reduces the bargaining power of the workers and forces wages down".
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Post by salopstick on Aug 29, 2019 17:33:52 GMT
I think he could have pissed the election if he had backed a "workers Brexit". I completely agree. How easy it would have been to get that message without it being hi-jacked by the 'powers that be' through their media puppets is another matter! I think he's going to really regret this. He's played for a GE in my opinion and it's going to backfire. Boris isn't stupid. He's suspended Parliament and he looks to me he's forced Corbyn's hand and he'll just end looking like the attempted destroyer of Brexit. He's lost the old Labour supporters of Brexit and he's not going to recover with the Blarite types. He's lost the "workers" and his "middle classes". *He should have stayed true to himself.* Which is exactly what he did to get elected leader in the first place. Then he caved in trying to stay there
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:35:11 GMT
I completely agree. How easy it would have been to get that message without it being hi-jacked by the 'powers that be' through their media puppets is another matter! I think he's going to really regret this. He's played for a GE in my opinion and it's going to backfire. Boris isn't stupid. He's suspended Parliament and he looks to me he's forced Corbyn's hand and he'll just end looking like the attempted destroyer of Brexit. He's lost the old Labour supporters of Brexit and he's not going to recover with the Blarite types. He's lost the "workers" and his "middle classes". *He should have stayed true to himself.* Which is exactly what he did to get elected leader in the first place. Then he caved in trying to stay there I think it was a power play for a GE that's gone horribly wrong.
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Post by salopstick on Aug 29, 2019 17:48:06 GMT
Which is exactly what he did to get elected leader in the first place. Then he caved in trying to stay there I think it was a power play for a GE that's gone horribly wrong. Which surprises me because he can’t beat Boris in one
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 29, 2019 17:48:06 GMT
It's literally nothing like it 😂 I dunno mate, I'll listen to one of Britain’s foremost historians of Germany and the Third Reich with interest It’s an interesting opinion piece. It’s also one of those articles where the content differs substantially from that suggested by the headline.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 17:50:14 GMT
I think it was a power play for a GE that's gone horribly wrong. Which surprises me because he can’t beat Boris in one Not now..but had he campaigned for a "workers Brexit" and properly demonstrated the benefits to the ordinary working person and the issues EU laws and regulations put on him being able to deliver the manifesto he no doubt wants to deliver I agree with tricky that he would have won.
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 17:53:17 GMT
Jumping on the thread whether Farage is a racist or not here is the case for the prosecution. In 1981, when Nigel was appointed as a prefect at his school, an English teacher wrote to the headteacher asking him to reconsider his decision, citing his fascist views. Another said that on a Combined Cadet Force (CCF) camp organised by the college, Farage and others “marched through a quiet Sussex village very late at night shouting Hitler-youth songs.” Skip forward to 2006 – when Nigel became the leader of UKIP, the UK Independence Party.He campaigned for the UK to leave the EU. Policies included strict caps on immigration, a five-year ban on unskilled workers, and a five-year wait before migrants could claim benefits. In 2013 Nigel said he supports Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those that are “coming here to take us over”. In a 2014 interview on LBC, Frage said he felt “uncomfortable” when he heard people speaking in other languages on London transport. The same year, he said the “basic principle” of Enoch Powell’s infamous anti-immigration “Rivers of Blood” speech was correct. In 2014 Nigel also said he would be concerned if Romanian immigrants moved in next door to him. The same year again, he also blamed immigrants for making him late to an event where he was speaking. He said his lateness “has nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a country in which the population is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration In 2015, Nigel then said that NHS money spent on recent immigrants with HIV would be better placed treating other taxpayers with serious conditions. Nigel defended a UKIP candidate who used a racist slur against Chinese people. Referring to the incident, he said: “If you and your mates were going out for a Chinese, what do you say you’re going for?” When Britain voted to leave the EU in 2016, Nigel boasted that the campaign had been won “without a bullet being fired”. This was eight days after Labour MP Jo Cox was fatally shot. Like Tommy Robinson, Nigel has close links with Steve Bannon, Donald’s chief strategist and founder of alt-right news platform Breitbart News. And thats not even touching his views on women and homosexuality. I rest my case.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 17:56:46 GMT
Jumping on the thread whether Farage is a racist or not here is the case for the prosecution. In 1981, when Nigel was appointed as a prefect at his school, an English teacher wrote to the headteacher asking him to reconsider his decision, citing his fascist views. Another said that on a Combined Cadet Force (CCF) camp organised by the college, Farage and others “marched through a quiet Sussex village very late at night shouting Hitler-youth songs.” Skip forward to 2006 – when Nigel became the leader of UKIP, the UK Independence Party.He campaigned for the UK to leave the EU. Policies included strict caps on immigration, a five-year ban on unskilled workers, and a five-year wait before migrants could claim benefits. In 2013 Nigel said he supports Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those that are “coming here to take us over”. In a 2014 interview on LBC, Frage said he felt “uncomfortable” when he heard people speaking in other languages on London transport. The same year, he said the “basic principle” of Enoch Powell’s infamous anti-immigration “Rivers of Blood” speech was correct. In 2014 Nigel also said he would be concerned if Romanian immigrants moved in next door to him. The same year again, he also blamed immigrants for making him late to an event where he was speaking. He said his lateness “has nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a country in which the population is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration In 2015, Nigel then said that NHS money spent on recent immigrants with HIV would be better placed treating other taxpayers with serious conditions. Nigel defended a UKIP candidate who used a racist slur against Chinese people. Referring to the incident, he said: “If you and your mates were going out for a Chinese, what do you say you’re going for?” When Britain voted to leave the EU in 2016, Nigel boasted that the campaign had been won “without a bullet being fired”. This was eight days after Labour MP Jo Cox was fatally shot. Like Tommy Robinson, Nigel has close links with Steve Bannon, Donald’s chief strategist and founder of alt-right news platform Breitbart News. And thats not even touching his views on women and homosexuality. I rest my case. Are you a racist?
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Post by spitthedog on Aug 29, 2019 18:06:53 GMT
Why the hell do we have to endure Jacob Rees-Mogg on the News channels every single day. They might as well give him his own show.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 18:10:10 GMT
Why the hell do we have to endure Jacob Rees-Mogg on the News channels every single day. They might as well give him his own show. He's an important Politician , leader of the House , part of the cabinet, isn't he? We don't see enough of Nigel Farage though do we?
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Post by felonious on Aug 29, 2019 18:11:36 GMT
I completely agree. How easy it would have been to get that message without it being hi-jacked by the 'powers that be' through their media puppets is another matter! I think he's going to really regret this. He's played for a GE in my opinion and it's going to backfire. Boris isn't stupid. He's suspended Parliament and he looks to me he's forced Corbyn's hand and he'll just end looking like the attempted destroyer of Brexit. He's lost the old Labour supporters of Brexit and he's not going to recover with the Blarite types. He's lost the "workers" and his "middle classes". *He should have stayed true to himself.* Which is exactly what he did to get elected leader in the first place. Then he caved in trying to stay there He's been shameless trying to get to the next level.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 29, 2019 18:14:39 GMT
Worked to get a deal through that was the softest of softest brexits and failed, the one the Yannis whatshisface called the type of agreement that a country signs after losing a war, the one that had pretty much everything Labour wanted but they still whipped against. Its already been said many times this tumbling out is just nonsense, they are already many mini deals already agreed after that anything else can be negotiated or not as the EU wishes. The EU have said the WA can not be renegotiated, parliament will not approve it, Boris is testing the EU and if they say no we leave simple. These mini deals you talk about are time limited though and eventually we will have to negotiate a longer term arrangement/relationship with the EU. And if we struggle badly after we leave with no deal, who do you think will then have the upper hand in negotiations? And if we dont struggle badly.....just to be clear though as pointed out you are suggesting the EU will negotiate a final deal that makes their member states goods less competitive into one of their biggest markets its possible of course but unlikely I'd say.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 29, 2019 18:29:11 GMT
Jumping on the thread whether Farage is a racist or not here is the case for the prosecution. In 1981, when Nigel was appointed as a prefect at his school, an English teacher wrote to the headteacher asking him to reconsider his decision, citing his fascist views. Another said that on a Combined Cadet Force (CCF) camp organised by the college, Farage and others “marched through a quiet Sussex village very late at night shouting Hitler-youth songs.” Skip forward to 2006 – when Nigel became the leader of UKIP, the UK Independence Party.He campaigned for the UK to leave the EU. Policies included strict caps on immigration, a five-year ban on unskilled workers, and a five-year wait before migrants could claim benefits. In 2013 Nigel said he supports Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those that are “coming here to take us over”. In a 2014 interview on LBC, Frage said he felt “uncomfortable” when he heard people speaking in other languages on London transport. The same year, he said the “basic principle” of Enoch Powell’s infamous anti-immigration “Rivers of Blood” speech was correct. In 2014 Nigel also said he would be concerned if Romanian immigrants moved in next door to him. The same year again, he also blamed immigrants for making him late to an event where he was speaking. He said his lateness “has nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a country in which the population is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration In 2015, Nigel then said that NHS money spent on recent immigrants with HIV would be better placed treating other taxpayers with serious conditions. Nigel defended a UKIP candidate who used a racist slur against Chinese people. Referring to the incident, he said: “If you and your mates were going out for a Chinese, what do you say you’re going for?” When Britain voted to leave the EU in 2016, Nigel boasted that the campaign had been won “without a bullet being fired”. This was eight days after Labour MP Jo Cox was fatally shot. Like Tommy Robinson, Nigel has close links with Steve Bannon, Donald’s chief strategist and founder of alt-right news platform Breitbart News. And thats not even touching his views on women and homosexuality. I rest my case. It seems a pretty weak case, a bit of xenophobia maybe, a tendency to say some cockish things for sure but for a supposed lifelong racist there is not much there, nothing to warrant an EHCR inquiry like certain parties. As I have said many times I have never really understand the obsession with immigration but saying things about immigration does not equal racism.
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