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Post by auntiegeorge on Mar 14, 2019 7:59:32 GMT
Just over two years ago MPs voted in favour of triggering Article 50 by 498 votes to 114. This was supported by the Labour leadership. The legal position has always been that if a deal could not be agreed upon then we would leave on 29th March on WTO rules. That position still stands, despite yesterday's non binding vote by MPs. It should come as no surprise that most MPs today don't believe in what they voted for two years ago.
I do not think for one second there will be a delay. I do believe one of two things will happen: either we leave with no deal or, more likely, an acceptable deal will be thrashed out in the last 24-48 hours. Horses always change places in the final furlong.
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Post by felonious on Mar 14, 2019 8:34:04 GMT
Just over two years ago MPs voted in favour of triggering Article 50 by 498 votes to 114. This was supported by the Labour leadership. The legal position has always been that if a deal could not be agreed upon then we would leave on 29th March on WTO rules. That position still stands, despite yesterday's non binding vote by MPs. It should come as no surprise that most MPs today don't believe in what they voted for two years ago. I do not think for one second there will be a delay. I do believe one of two things will happen: either we leave with no deal or, more likely, an acceptable deal will be thrashed out in the last 24-48 hours. Horses always change places in the final furlong. Most MPs don't believe a word that was in their manifestos, that got then into power to represent their constituents but not represent the wishes of their constituents. Both parties backed Brexit, both parties voted to trigger Article 50.
May had it exactly right yesterday when she questioned the public's trust of parliament. It's gone.
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 14, 2019 8:55:21 GMT
Just over two years ago MPs voted in favour of triggering Article 50 by 498 votes to 114. This was supported by the Labour leadership. The legal position has always been that if a deal could not be agreed upon then we would leave on 29th March on WTO rules. That position still stands, despite yesterday's non binding vote by MPs. It should come as no surprise that most MPs today don't believe in what they voted for two years ago. I do not think for one second there will be a delay. I do believe one of two things will happen: either we leave with no deal or, more likely, an acceptable deal will be thrashed out in the last 24-48 hours. Horses always change places in the final furlong. Most MPs don't believe a word that was in their manifestos, that got then into power to represent their constituents but not represent the wishes of their constituents. Both parties backed Brexit, both parties voted to trigger Article 50.
May had it exactly right yesterday when she questioned the public's trust of parliament. It's gone.
In fairness, Labour's election manifesto explicitly ruled out a no deal Brexit. Regardless of how manifestly stupid that position is (remember this is a Labour manifesto) it is their position and their voting subsequently has been consistent with it. Anyone therefore who voted Labour last time shouldn't now be complaining about what they have done. You endorsed that position with your vote. |
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Post by redstriper on Mar 14, 2019 9:22:21 GMT
David Davies came out and suggested the deal should be accepted. That must be hard for him as he knows better than anyone else that its a crock of shit. But the bottom line is we have no negotiating position now that can get us a better one. The delays and uncertainty are crippling the country, further delays will not help anyone.
If she manages it pull it off third time around and pretends its a triumph the people of maidenhead should start deselection process immediately, leave nothing to chance. Her intentions were good, but through her own arrogance and ambition this woman has sold the country down the river and shouldn't be in public office. I don't want to hear from her ever again.
That said, she has been undermined by those opposing a no deal exit from day 1, plus those who wanted to derail the whole process. They are also culpable, so that's all of labour, the libs, and the scots.
The amount of MP's with any credibility left would struggle to fill a bus shelter.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2019 9:31:57 GMT
Most MPs don't believe a word that was in their manifestos, that got then into power to represent their constituents but not represent the wishes of their constituents. Both parties backed Brexit, both parties voted to trigger Article 50.
May had it exactly right yesterday when she questioned the public's trust of parliament. It's gone.
In fairness, Labour's election manifesto explicitly ruled out a no deal Brexit. Regardless of how manifestly stupid that position is (remember this is a Labour manifesto) it is their position and their voting subsequently has been consistent with it. Anyone therefore who voted Labour last time shouldn't now be complaining about what they have done. You endorsed that position with your vote. It took them ages to come up with a consistent view on Brexit, though. The Daily Politics did a piss take of some of their leading lights contradictory statements on the single market and the customs union. Thornberry and Gardiner were the worst offenders. Didn’t their manifesto also say that free movement of people must end? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 14, 2019 9:41:47 GMT
In fairness, Labour's election manifesto explicitly ruled out a no deal Brexit. Regardless of how manifestly stupid that position is (remember this is a Labour manifesto) it is their position and their voting subsequently has been consistent with it. Anyone therefore who voted Labour last time shouldn't now be complaining about what they have done. You endorsed that position with your vote. It took them ages to come up with a consistent view on Brexit, though. The Daily Politics did a piss take of some of their leading lights contradictory statements on the single market and the customs union. Thornberry and Gardiner were the worst offenders. Didn’t their manifesto also say that free movement of people must end? More or less, yes. This was the only mention of it I could find doing a quick Ctrl + F search on their manifesto from 2017: 'Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.' |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 14, 2019 10:02:22 GMT
It took them ages to come up with a consistent view on Brexit, though. The Daily Politics did a piss take of some of their leading lights contradictory statements on the single market and the customs union. Thornberry and Gardiner were the worst offenders. Didn’t their manifesto also say that free movement of people must end? More or less, yes. This was the only mention of it I could find doing a quick Ctrl + F search on their manifesto from 2017: 'Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.' And neither should they..'migrants' are not responsible for government economic policy. Although they are blamed for the consequences of it. |
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Post by Northy on Mar 14, 2019 10:05:08 GMT
David Davies came out and suggested the deal should be accepted. That must be hard for him as he knows better than anyone else that its a crock of shit. But the bottom line is we have no negotiating position now that can get us a better one. The delays and uncertainty are crippling the country, further delays will not help anyone. If she manages it pull it off third time around and pretends its a triumph the people of maidenhead should start deselection process immediately. Leave nothing to chance - her intentions were good, but through her own arrogance and ambition this woman has sold the country down the river and shouldn't be in public office. I don't want to hear from her ever again. That said, she has been undermined by those opposing a no deal exit from day 1, plus those who wanted to derail the whole process. They are also culpable, so that's all of labour, the libs, and the scots. The amount of MP's with any credibility left would struggle to fill a bus shelter. True, she has been awful. My MP is campainging for brexit, no deal etc. and not to ignore democracy. Yet our cosntituency voted to remain, it's all a bit Pete tonge |
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Post by auntiegeorge on Mar 14, 2019 10:05:21 GMT
Most MPs don't believe a word that was in their manifestos, that got then into power to represent their constituents but not represent the wishes of their constituents. Both parties backed Brexit, both parties voted to trigger Article 50.
May had it exactly right yesterday when she questioned the public's trust of parliament. It's gone.
In fairness, Labour's election manifesto explicitly ruled out a no deal Brexit. Regardless of how manifestly stupid that position is (remember this is a Labour manifesto) it is their position and their voting subsequently has been consistent with it. Anyone therefore who voted Labour last time shouldn't now be complaining about what they have done. You endorsed that position with your vote. I wasn't aware of that point in the Labour manifesto. Thanks for pointing it out. But manifestos are basically worthless. I presume Anna Soubry subscribed to the Conservative manifesto in 2017. Look how that turned out. The point is that the House of Commons as a whole voted overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50. The default legal position has always been that if no deal were agreed then we would leave on WTO rules. Tory, Labour, Lib Dems, all of them, now have to stand by that legal position with no delay. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 10:08:57 GMT
Looks like we could be heading for a third vote on May's WA, presumably hoping that today's votes will make her "my deal or no Brexit" will be more persuasive t the Brexit wing of the Conservative party. Although that would be logical, I'm fairly sure I read a quote from someone from the ERG that said there's no chance of them voting for the deal should there be another vote. Have I got this wrong...I thought they didn’t have the numbers to pass anything without the DUP voting with them? If so there’s probably more chance of James McClean getting a poppy tattooed on his face and offering to sing the national anthem at the royal variety show than the DUP voting for that deal. I hope the Speaker disallows it being motioned again. I know it’s been mentioned and he probably can’t stop it as it’s a chance in circumstances but it’s been voted down twice and for very good reason. Whether you’re leave or remain it’s a total bag of shite. She’s literally a mad woman. She’s ran down the clock and has now holding a gun to people’s heads. Oh I see what they are doing now they are trying to persuade Mr Cox to lie to us all and change his legal advice over the backstop. The only person who has bothered to tell us the truth for a long time. I hope he's a strong person and not easily bribed. This is a disgrace. There's not a hope in hell of getting out that backstop. Anyone who says or believes there is is a fool - it would take decades and decades to prove whether "negotiations had broken down" we'd be dragged through the courts and the bills would be extortionate - hopefully the DUP are not as thick as they look. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 14, 2019 10:15:54 GMT
In fairness, Labour's election manifesto explicitly ruled out a no deal Brexit. Regardless of how manifestly stupid that position is (remember this is a Labour manifesto) it is their position and their voting subsequently has been consistent with it. Anyone therefore who voted Labour last time shouldn't now be complaining about what they have done. You endorsed that position with your vote. I wasn't aware of that point in the Labour manifesto. Thanks for pointing it out. But manifestos are basically worthless. I presume Anna Soubry subscribed to the Conservative manifesto in 2017. Look how that turned out. The point is that the House of Commons as a whole voted overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50. The default legal position has always been that if no deal were agreed then we would leave on WTO rules. Tory, Labour, Lib Dems, all of them, now have to stand by that legal position with no delay. I disagree that manifestos are worthless. For me they are the core of what a political party should be held to should they win an election. It's only when politicians start talking about the manifesto that things get muddied as they try and massage their true intentions to become palatable to the voters. The manifesto should be treated as true idea of what the parties actually want to do, and what should be expected of them if they are elected. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 14, 2019 10:23:45 GMT
if this is true, the plan Indeed is to put some distance between the Referendum and a decision to stay in the EU....... Ever Closer Union.... is a never ending project......each word is extremely important.....in this case " ever"
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Post by upthefud on Mar 14, 2019 10:27:42 GMT
I was angry about this a few months ago. Now I literally just don’t care.
We know what the politicians are and what they think of us. I for one will never vote again because, what’s the point?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 14, 2019 10:31:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 10:33:48 GMT
I was angry about this a few months ago. Now I literally just don’t care. We know what the politicians are and what they think of us. I for one will never vote again because, what’s the point? That is what they want! If that is how you feel then you need to do something about it whether all that is is screaming and shouting at the top of your voice, trying to vote for a different government, or whatever. At the end of the day there are more of us (by us I mean ordinary working people whether leavers or remainers) than them but if we all sit at home and don't try to do anything then they'll bloody love it. Finally shut up us up. Finished what they started 40 years ago. You can't let them win. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2019 10:38:02 GMT
I wasn't aware of that point in the Labour manifesto. Thanks for pointing it out. But manifestos are basically worthless. I presume Anna Soubry subscribed to the Conservative manifesto in 2017. Look how that turned out. The point is that the House of Commons as a whole voted overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50. The default legal position has always been that if no deal were agreed then we would leave on WTO rules. Tory, Labour, Lib Dems, all of them, now have to stand by that legal position with no delay. I disagree that manifestos are worthless. For me they are the core of what a political party should be held to should they win an election. It's only when politicians start talking about the manifesto that things get muddied as they try and massage their true intentions to become palatable to the voters. The manifesto should be treated as true idea of what the parties actually want to do, and what should be expected of them if they are elected. Can you stay in the single market and customs union, and also end Freedom Of Movement? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 14, 2019 10:43:17 GMT
I disagree that manifestos are worthless. For me they are the core of what a political party should be held to should they win an election. It's only when politicians start talking about the manifesto that things get muddied as they try and massage their true intentions to become palatable to the voters. The manifesto should be treated as true idea of what the parties actually want to do, and what should be expected of them if they are elected. Can you stay in the single market and customs union, and also end Freedom Of Movement? I would say almost certainly not, although Labour either a) believe differently, or b) will not be including that line about freedom of movement in their next election manifesto. |
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Post by auntiegeorge on Mar 14, 2019 10:51:35 GMT
I remember Jezza on the Andrew Marr show about a year ago stressing that he was firmly in favour of freedom of movement.
Wat I meant when I said manifestos are worthless is that politicians never keep their word and after five years in power nothing in the manifesto has been achieved. Of course they have value as written statements of a party's intent, but their usefulness stops there.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 14, 2019 11:06:29 GMT
Vote leave Chairman Michael Gove warns about the dangers of throwing the country in to a period of prolonged uncertainty, you couldn't make it up :-) Vote Leave have not been negotiating on behalf of the UK. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 14, 2019 11:09:35 GMT
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 14, 2019 11:59:00 GMT
This seems to be a fairly decent overview of where we are at the moment, without giving any real opinions on what is the best way forward (it's a thread so you need to click on the tweet to see the rest of it). Good for anyone who is lost in the current avalanche of goings on in the Brexit process.
It also hints at the possibility of a small delay in leaving the EU if the WA gets agreed, to give us time to do some extra planning for leaving, which I hadn't considered.
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 14, 2019 12:07:57 GMT
A halfway decent or competent leader of the opposition, join the dots momo. I'm not sure that's the point here though fyd. She has staked not only her political reputation on this but her personal authority and dignity and has been humiliated at every turn. It's just not normal (and borderline unconstitutional) she's still in situ! Not entirely her fault though, the Conservatives sat next to her and behind her don't want to be caught on duty which is understandable to a degree but also displays deep, deep cowardice. No it really is the whole point, the laughable position of racist grandpa which is basically wanting brexit but pretending he wants a different one is just bollocks and the general public sees straight through it. |
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Post by Davef on Mar 14, 2019 12:18:34 GMT
This seems to be a fairly decent overview of where we are at the moment, without giving any real opinions on what is the best way forward (it's a thread so you need to click on the tweet to see the rest of it). Good for anyone who is lost in the current avalanche of goings on in the Brexit process. It also hints at the possibility of a small delay in leaving the EU if the WA gets agreed, to give us time to do some extra planning for leaving, which I hadn't considered. A transition period until 2021 once a withdrawal agreement has been voted for has always been news. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 14, 2019 12:19:00 GMT
Can you stay in the single market and customs union, and also end Freedom Of Movement? I would say almost certainly not, although Labour either a) believe differently, or b) will not be including that line about freedom of movement in their next election manifesto. Apologies, because you have probably answered this before, but what do you make of May's deal? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 14, 2019 12:25:49 GMT
This backs up Patrick O'Flynn's point that I posted earlier.......is the plan now..." Go away, forget the referendum, take your time and come back with the right answer"
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Post by salopstick on Mar 14, 2019 12:33:14 GMT
I can imagine the leaflet of a pro-Brexit candidate at the next general election against a sitting MP
“Insert name” vote against anti Brexit legislation on the following dates...... etc etc
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Post by flea79 on Mar 14, 2019 12:36:43 GMT
Gareth Snell is lying little snivelling piece of shit, publicly states he will respect the results of the referendum in Stoke and support brexit while looking for votes at the last GE, then has done nothing but block it at any opportunity while stating on twitter he wants a deal brexit yet votes against the deal on the table presumably awaiting the deal fairy to leave him the one he wants this twat thinks he will get back in at the next election, i sincerely hope he comes to my street asking for votes! he is like all the others untrustworthy and in it for himself, i shall just spoil my votes in future, shows i turned out but i dont trust the system or the people in it anymore |
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Post by wagsastokie on Mar 14, 2019 13:02:16 GMT
Gareth Snell is lying little snivelling piece of shit, publicly states he will respect the results of the referendum in Stoke and support brexit while looking for votes at the last GE, then has done nothing but block it at any opportunity while stating on twitter he wants a deal brexit yet votes against the deal on the table presumably awaiting the deal fairy to leave him the one he wants this twat thinks he will get back in at the next election, i sincerely hope he comes to my street asking for votes! he is like all the others untrustworthy and in it for himself, i shall just spoil my votes in future, shows i turned out but i dont trust the system or the people in it anymore That’s the trouble the snivelling little shit wants you to spoil your ballot or not vote Do you honestly think at the next election if ten thousand people spoil there ballot he would give two fucks as long as he gets one more vote than his opposition If you want to prove your disgust then you have to hold your nose and vote for whoever has the best chance to unseat him This goes for every seat in the country there should be a list of MPs that have betrayed brexit and let the public deal with them |
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Post by salopstick on Mar 14, 2019 13:04:12 GMT
Gareth Snell is lying little snivelling piece of shit, publicly states he will respect the results of the referendum in Stoke and support brexit while looking for votes at the last GE, then has done nothing but block it at any opportunity while stating on twitter he wants a deal brexit yet votes against the deal on the table presumably awaiting the deal fairy to leave him the one he wants this twat thinks he will get back in at the next election, i sincerely hope he comes to my street asking for votes! he is like all the others untrustworthy and in it for himself, i shall just spoil my votes in future, shows i turned out but i dont trust the system or the people in it anymore That’s the trouble the snivelling little shit wants you to spoil your ballot or not vote Do you honestly think at the next election if ten thousand people spoil there ballot he would give two fucks as long as he gets one more vote than his opposition If you want to prove your disgust then you have to hold your nose and vote for whoever has the best chance to unseat him This goes for every seat in the country there should be a list of MPs that have betrayed brexit and let the public deal with them hence my post three up |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 14, 2019 13:48:44 GMT
I'm not sure that's the point here though fyd. She has staked not only her political reputation on this but her personal authority and dignity and has been humiliated at every turn. It's just not normal (and borderline unconstitutional) she's still in situ! Not entirely her fault though, the Conservatives sat next to her and behind her don't want to be caught on duty which is understandable to a degree but also displays deep, deep cowardice. No it really is the whole point, the laughable position of racist grandpa which is basically wanting brexit but pretending he wants a different one is just bollocks and the general public sees straight through it. I guess we extend and keep bringing the idiot May's deal back until enough MP's die to change the numbers. That or the cowardly shits could call an election |
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