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Post by lordb on Jan 4, 2019 12:14:47 GMT
I see Michael Gove has joined the project dear bandwagon. You mean telling the truth? Gove & the Truth hmmm........
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 12:20:05 GMT
James O'Brien has owned all the NO Deal mugwumps today. He's a world-class debater who mostly shoots fish in barrels. Of course he owns people. Although I have to admit, he's the only person I can recall who had Farage completely on the ropes, although that was pre-Brexit I believe. Not sure he'd be able to match Farage in a debate on current affairs. And before someone says "he has superior arguments therefore he wins" no it's mostly because he's a world-class debater vs average people that he wins. In the same way that the remain arguments in this thread are no better (and in my biased opinion a fair bit worse) than leave arguments.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 4, 2019 12:40:37 GMT
James O'Brien has owned all the NO Deal mugwumps today. Certainly did. Not hard though really, especially the guy who suggested Greece should go to war with the EU.
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Post by 4372 on Jan 4, 2019 13:01:34 GMT
James O'Brien has owned all the NO Deal mugwumps today. Certainly did. Not hard though really, especially the guy who suggested Greece should go to war with the EU. Yes,that one was particularly funny.
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Post by shangamuzo on Jan 4, 2019 13:22:33 GMT
Certainly did. Not hard though really, especially the guy who suggested Greece should go to war with the EU. Yes,that one was particularly funny. If JOB wants to risk a thrashing. He should go head to head with one of his own LBC colleagues: Farage. But preferably JRM. Thick Kunt.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2019 13:36:40 GMT
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Post by shangamuzo on Jan 4, 2019 13:41:59 GMT
Well let's have another one then O'fuckwit is a Remoaning thick prick.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2019 13:50:38 GMT
I see Michael Gove has joined the project dear bandwagon. There's no such thing as "project fear". There's only the reporting of facts which can be verified; opinions, which may or may not be informed; and mis-information, whose purpose seems to be to generate an emotive rather than a reasoned response. Everyone is free to check facts, investigate the possible motivation for a statement being made, and choose how to respond to a news item. (I should remind myself of this more often!) None of this is as easy as agreeing with what we want to hear. I found it interesting to see Gove reading carefully from a prepared speech today. Can't help thinking that it was prepared for him by an "expert".
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2019 14:03:50 GMT
I agree with this Labour MP. If we do properly leave things could get very nasty. I actually would not put anything past those in power who want to prevent Brexit. Interesting that the original tweet makes reference to the imagery used in the Guardian report, and labels it as "completely reckless journalism", which is then picked up by an MP and used to generalise about a newspaper (and one which usually supports her party's values), and yet neither seems concerned about the substance of the story, which is also reported by the Irish Times and the Belfast Telegraph among others, and what it might signify for Ireland and it's it police forces if a hard border is reinstated.
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2019 14:09:44 GMT
James O'Brien has owned all the NO Deal mugwumps today. He's a world-class debater who mostly shoots fish in barrels. Of course he owns people. Although I have to admit, he's the only person I can recall who had Farage completely on the ropes, although that was pre-Brexit I believe. Not sure he'd be able to match Farage in a debate on current affairs. And before someone says "he has superior arguments therefore he wins" no it's mostly because he's a world-class debater vs average people that he wins. In the same way that the remain arguments in this thread are no better (and in my biased opinion a fair bit worse) than leave arguments. JOB is indeed a very good debater and has a well-honed technique of getting people to dig themselves into a hole by using their own words against them. He also has a team of researchers doing fact-checking in real time which the average punter does not have. Such a set-up would be useful if he were to come up against bigger guns like JRM or Gove, who speak with such confidence and conviction that it seems that might well be telling the truth - even when they're telling whoppers!
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Post by 4372 on Jan 4, 2019 14:29:44 GMT
Jacob's Crackers
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 14:46:23 GMT
I agree with this Labour MP. If we do properly leave things could get very nasty. I actually would not put anything past those in power who want to prevent Brexit. Interesting that the original tweet makes reference to the imagery used in the Guardian report, and labels it as "completely reckless journalism", which is then picked up by an MP and used to generalise about a newspaper (and one which usually supports her party's values), and yet neither seems concerned about the substance of the story, which is also reported by the Irish Times and the Belfast Telegraph among others, and what it might signify for Ireland and it's it police forces if a hard border is reinstated. Hoey is rightfully drawing attention to the disgraceful attempt by the Guardian to link Brexit to the Irish question. If anything it might encourage and stir up the old , entrenched divisions and hatred which in many ways is just under the surface. Trying to play on people's fears to stop Brexit. Instead of accepting the decision and looking forward positively with optimism to make a better future for Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK they have simply stooped even lower in the fear agenda. Disgraceful. There's no need for it.Is the argument " You cannot exercise your democratic right to leave the EU because if you do the Troubles will start again" If anything it reconfirms for me that those Remainers who have power will stop at nothing to get their way. If a proper Brexit does transpire in March there could well be some unimaginable consequences. Nothing can get in the way of project " More Europe"
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2019 15:46:44 GMT
Interesting that the original tweet makes reference to the imagery used in the Guardian report, and labels it as "completely reckless journalism", which is then picked up by an MP and used to generalise about a newspaper (and one which usually supports her party's values), and yet neither seems concerned about the substance of the story, which is also reported by the Irish Times and the Belfast Telegraph among others, and what it might signify for Ireland and it's it police forces if a hard border is reinstated. Hoey is rightfully drawing attention to the disgraceful attempt by the Guardian to link Brexit to the Irish question. If anything it might encourage and stir up the old , entrenched divisions and hatred which in many ways is just under the surface. Trying to play on people's fears to stop Brexit. Instead of accepting the decision and looking forward positively with optimism to make a better future for Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK they have simply stooped even lower in the fear agenda. Disgraceful. There's no need for it.Is the argument " You cannot exercise your democratic right to leave the EU because if you do the Troubles will start again" If anything it reconfirms for me that those Remainers who have power will stop at nothing to get their way. If a proper Brexit does transpire in March there could well be some unimaginable consequences. Nothing can get in the way of project " More Europe" Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian.
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 4, 2019 17:01:28 GMT
Hoey is rightfully drawing attention to the disgraceful attempt by the Guardian to link Brexit to the Irish question. If anything it might encourage and stir up the old , entrenched divisions and hatred which in many ways is just under the surface. Trying to play on people's fears to stop Brexit. Instead of accepting the decision and looking forward positively with optimism to make a better future for Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK they have simply stooped even lower in the fear agenda. Disgraceful. There's no need for it.Is the argument " You cannot exercise your democratic right to leave the EU because if you do the Troubles will start again" If anything it reconfirms for me that those Remainers who have power will stop at nothing to get their way. If a proper Brexit does transpire in March there could well be some unimaginable consequences. Nothing can get in the way of project " More Europe" Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian. The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 17:07:55 GMT
Hoey is rightfully drawing attention to the disgraceful attempt by the Guardian to link Brexit to the Irish question. If anything it might encourage and stir up the old , entrenched divisions and hatred which in many ways is just under the surface. Trying to play on people's fears to stop Brexit. Instead of accepting the decision and looking forward positively with optimism to make a better future for Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK they have simply stooped even lower in the fear agenda. Disgraceful. There's no need for it.Is the argument " You cannot exercise your democratic right to leave the EU because if you do the Troubles will start again" If anything it reconfirms for me that those Remainers who have power will stop at nothing to get their way. If a proper Brexit does transpire in March there could well be some unimaginable consequences. Nothing can get in the way of project " More Europe" Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian. The tweet that Hoey refers to is the disgraceful link between Brexit and the atrocities, violence and deep seated tragedy of the Troubles.Totally unnecessary, provocative and scaremongering. It is up to the politicians to manage Brexit in a positive and peaceful way....all the parties have said that they will not have a hard border. Simply scare tactics of the lowest kind brought about simply by those who can't accept not getting their own way and Brexit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 18:04:35 GMT
Hoey is rightfully drawing attention to the disgraceful attempt by the Guardian to link Brexit to the Irish question. If anything it might encourage and stir up the old , entrenched divisions and hatred which in many ways is just under the surface. Trying to play on people's fears to stop Brexit. Instead of accepting the decision and looking forward positively with optimism to make a better future for Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK they have simply stooped even lower in the fear agenda. Disgraceful. There's no need for it.Is the argument " You cannot exercise your democratic right to leave the EU because if you do the Troubles will start again" If anything it reconfirms for me that those Remainers who have power will stop at nothing to get their way. If a proper Brexit does transpire in March there could well be some unimaginable consequences. Nothing can get in the way of project " More Europe" Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian. I See that the Guardian has been shamed into changing the picture( see link below) and has added this mealy mouthed addendum at the bottom( they've even changed the thrust of their story/ fake news....see addendum again) . It has certainly lowered any credibility it had , politicising people's tragedy. Shameful. From the link........ "This article was amended on 4 January 2019 because an earlier version implied that the mutual aid process had been triggered, but the PSNI has yet to make the formal request. Statements supplied to the Guardian after publication from the National Police Chiefs’ Council and PSNI were added. In addition, the picture used in an earlier version was removed as it did not accurately reflect the content of the article."....ie we acted disgracefully, and the reaction has forced us to change but of course don't admit it www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 20:27:41 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 21:37:37 GMT
Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian. The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now The weaponising may have backfired though Harry. Sometimes to be devious and manoeuvring may leave with nowhere to go if it is exposed:
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 22:47:43 GMT
A bit of honesty in my opinion:
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 23:07:27 GMT
Is Europe at peace with itself. I don't think that the issues to do with Brexit are confined to the UK. Is the "EU" organisation the answer?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 23:38:27 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 4, 2019 23:48:01 GMT
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 5, 2019 4:56:27 GMT
The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now The weaponising may have backfired though Harry. Sometimes to be devious and manoeuvring may leave with nowhere to go if it is exposed: W Absolutely john , varadker is pushing the UK towards a no deal exit that will do enormous damage to Irish exporters simply to show solidarity with his European masters .
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2019 7:38:00 GMT
The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now The weaponising may have backfired though Harry. Sometimes to be devious and manoeuvring may leave you with nowhere to go if it is exposed:
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 5, 2019 7:40:35 GMT
[/quote]The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now [/quote]
This doesn't make sense. The EU is a union and as such looks after it's own interests and those of it's members - the border issue exists and will continue to do so regardless of what happens this year. But do say that the EU "weaponised" the issue is misleading and extreme- the sort of thing Farage might say.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2019 7:56:47 GMT
Seems like the residency issues can be solved if politicians want to do so. They could have been solved soon after the Referendum result, not left until 2 years later. It's hard to know who is telling the truth and if they are being less than truthful...Why? The article says that the EU offered a similar solution at the outset of negotiations but May turned it down....I seem to recall ( may be wrong) that the UK were the first to offer unconditional reassurance to EU citizens already in residence. If May turned down the EU offer and also turned down the so called Canada plus offer it does beg the question of what she is actually up to. www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/04/uk-nationals-in-italy-assured-of-residency-in-event-of-no-brexit-deal
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 5, 2019 8:06:34 GMT
Is this a wind-up JR? Brexit IS linked to the Irish question, which became the main issue during the negotiations. The EU will defend it's member state (the Republic) and it's border - a soft_border was essential to the peace process and the GFA. Anything which messes with the border risks a return of the troubles because of those entrenched divisions and hatred just under the surface. None of this is due to the Guardian. I See that the Guardian has been shamed into changing the picture( see link below) and has added this mealy mouthed addendum at the bottom( they've even changed the thrust of their story/ fake news....see addendum again) . It has certainly lowered any credibility it had , politicising people's tragedy. Shameful. From the link........ "This article was amended on 4 January 2019 because an earlier version implied that the mutual aid process had been triggered, but the PSNI has yet to make the formal request. Statements supplied to the Guardian after publication from the National Police Chiefs’ Council and PSNI were added. In addition, the picture used in an earlier version was removed as it did not accurately reflect the content of the article."....ie we acted disgracefully, and the reaction has forced us to change but of course don't admit it www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-borderFair dues JR. The Guardian has issued an explanation at the end of the article - not really shaming is it? The picture did not acurately reflect the content of the article but does reflect the fears of many people about what might happen if there's a hard border.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2019 8:07:31 GMT
The question of the border was weaponised by the EU negotiators in order to make Brexit more palatable for the republic. If we do leave. Without a deal it will be incumbent on the EU to secure its external border whatever they say now [/quote] This doesn't make sense. The EU is a union and as such looks after it's own interests and those of it's members - the border issue exists and will continue to do so regardless of what happens this year. But do say that the EU "weaponised" the issue is misleading and extreme- the sort of thing Farage might say. [/quote] I don't get your point at all Plonk. The picture used by the Guardian was totally wrong. A disgraceful clear attempt at weaponising the border.. they have admitted as much. I cannot see anything wrong with what Farage says in the video ...he was simply answering a question put to him ( very rare for a politician, I know) and if anything he is saying that the border is not an issue especially , as he implies, if both sets of people want to trade. Ordinary people have the ability to " get on with it". Politicians use what they can to get their way for their own ends and the bigger the stakes the more they are going to be prepared to use serious even life changing issues....the Guardian clearly went too far
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 5, 2019 8:10:30 GMT
I See that the Guardian has been shamed into changing the picture( see link below) and has added this mealy mouthed addendum at the bottom( they've even changed the thrust of their story/ fake news....see addendum again) . It has certainly lowered any credibility it had , politicising people's tragedy. Shameful. From the link........ "This article was amended on 4 January 2019 because an earlier version implied that the mutual aid process had been triggered, but the PSNI has yet to make the formal request. Statements supplied to the Guardian after publication from the National Police Chiefs’ Council and PSNI were added. In addition, the picture used in an earlier version was removed as it did not accurately reflect the content of the article."....ie we acted disgracefully, and the reaction has forced us to change but of course don't admit it www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-borderFair dues JR. The Guardian has issued an explanation at the end of the article - not really shaming is it? The picture did not acurately reflect the content of the article but does reflect the fears of many people about what might happen if there's a hard border. They were shamed into changing it ( and the actual facts of the story) because it was wrong. The Troubles ruined many families and life in Northern Ireland/ Ireland. No need for it( "it" being the Guardian's article)
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 5, 2019 8:16:15 GMT
Seems like the residency issues can be solved if politicians want to do so. They could have been solved soon after the Referendum result, not left until 2 years later. It's hard to know who is telling the truth and if they are being less than truthful...Why? The article says that the EU offered a similar solution at the outset of negotiations but May turned it down....I seem to recall ( may be wrong) that the UK were the first to offer unconditional reassurance to EU citizens already in residence. If May turned down the EU offer and also turned down the so called Canada plus offer it does beg the question of what she is actually up to. www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/04/uk-nationals-in-italy-assured-of-residency-in-event-of-no-brexit-dealMay has refused to meet with representatives of Brits in Europe since the referendum - as have any of her Brexit ministers - unlike the politicians in the other EU countries. Over the past two years of negotiations it was often repeated that the issue had already been resolved when, in fact, nothing had been resolved. Residency arrangements were also supposed to be reciprocal between the UK and the EU. Given that the UK's settled status program currently has a 20% rejection/incompletion rate, I sincerely hope note. Here in Germany various ministries are preparing contingencies for both deal or no-deal scenarios. What May actually seems to be up to is extending her hostile environment program which she ran with as home secretary - although God knows why - possibly to continue the false narrative that immigration was the real problem leading up to the Brexit referendum.
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