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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:42:29 GMT
You have missed the point again....but the choice of your words " what the EU does and does not legislate over" gives it away....cf.NZ and Australia NZ and Australia aren’t in a union together. It’s comparing apples and pears The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:44:05 GMT
You are either in or out. Right now we are in, in April we won’t be (unless something changes). Switzerland and Norway aren’t in the EU. Exactly but the WA amounts to IN... part of the con trick If you had to bet every penny you have in the world on the answer to this question, which would it be: If May’s deal passes and nothing else changes, will the UK be a member of the EU in April 2019, yes or no?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:45:41 GMT
NZ and Australia aren’t in a union together. It’s comparing apples and pears The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy Which referendum are you talking about? All I was asked was whether we should remain in the Eu or leave it. I wasn’t asked about democracy or sovereignty. I think you thought you were voting for something else.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:53:41 GMT
Exactly but the WA amounts to IN... part of the con trick If you had to bet every penny you have in the world on the answer to this question, which would it be: If May’s deal passes and nothing else changes, will the UK be a member of the EU in April 2019, yes or no? I'm afraid it is not that simple but the answer is defacto we would still be IN, with an ease in the future of being more fully in . Do my answer is Yes. But this has been part of the problem and confusion of the deceitful methods of the EU through Ever Closer Union to entrap the UK without the consent of the people....or at present because we are not in the Euro / other opt outs you could argue that we are not fully in....the Leavers voted for true BREXIT, independence, Sovereignty, no SM, CU EU CT....do May's deal does not deliver that no matter how some politicians try to claim it...s divide and rule ploy. I've answered your question..Yes Answer mine.... irrespective of whether you think it is good or bad thing, is it possible for a country to be free and sovereign with no reference to the EU in its affairs ( given that every country only trades with other countries if their standards and price are met)and trade with the EU ( eg like Australia)
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 17:54:40 GMT
Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu If our government wants to lower tax rates to stimulate the economy it could, including VAT Do you actually read posts As I have said on more than one post Yes we can alter the rate of vat What we cannot do is decide to abolish vat on certain goods Untill we are able to do so we are not a independent free country Sod the economy Sod immigration I voted for freedom I want freedom whatever the cost
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:56:01 GMT
The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy Which referendum are you talking about? All I was asked was whether we should remain in the Eu or leave it. I wasn’t asked about democracy or sovereignty. I think you thought you were voting for something else. I'm afraid you don't get it Oggy..."in or out " does actually mean something ( and that something is to do with sovereignty and now Democracy) and was not to do with " deals"... that's why ordinary people understood the question
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 17:59:30 GMT
Christ man/woman stop clutching at straws The answer is no we are not free to set are taxation rates As ive said in a previous post Those that don’t find the level of vat a problem probably have far to much disposable income Are you suggesting that those who want a free and independent country may well be homophobic racists Or was it a piss poor atempt to deflect from the original question Yes we can. If you are right, point me to the EU legislation that defines what income tax rates must be at and then explain why each nation has different rates and thresholds. Yet again avoiding the question Ii am talking about all tax Not the taxes you chose to mention Are we free to set all forms of taxation or abolish any form of taxation Yes or no
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 18:08:45 GMT
Yes we can. If you are right, point me to the EU legislation that defines what income tax rates must be at and then explain why each nation has different rates and thresholds. Yet again avoiding the question Ii am talking about all tax Not the taxes you chose to mention Are we free to set all forms of taxation or abolish any form of taxation Yes or no And Waggy , the point being ( as of course you know) would a free soverign independent country even need to ask the question.
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Post by lordb on Jan 1, 2019 18:18:59 GMT
NZ and Australia aren’t in a union together. It’s comparing apples and pears The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy Tell you what sovereignty looks like post Brexit:it looks exactly like May did last month trawling round Europe begging to be chucked a bone and getting next to nothing. Can't wait
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 18:29:13 GMT
The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy Tell you what sovereignty looks like post Brexit:it looks exactly like May did last month trawling round Europe begging to be chucked a bone and getting next to nothing. Can't wait Yes May has undermined and devalued our country. You are right there is no need for that from an independent sovereign country... Couldn't see Australia doing that....Mind she is a Remainer....and she's after a " deal" not Brexit...and of course the EU can't accept us leaving Have you seen this video, the newscaster seems to understand the issues better than you do. www.skynews.com.au/details/_5977992995001
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 18:47:35 GMT
If you had to bet every penny you have in the world on the answer to this question, which would it be: If May’s deal passes and nothing else changes, will the UK be a member of the EU in April 2019, yes or no? I'm afraid it is not that simple but the answer is defacto we would still be IN, with an ease in the future of being more fully in . Do my answer is Yes. But this has been part of the problem and confusion of the deceitful methods of the EU through Ever Closer Union to entrap the UK without the consent of the people....or at present because we are not in the Euro / other opt outs you could argue that we are not fully in....the Leavers voted for true BREXIT, independence, Sovereignty, no SM, CU EU CT....do May's deal does not deliver that no matter how some politicians try to claim it...s divide and rule ploy. I've answered your question..Yes Answer mine.... irrespective of whether you think it is good or bad thing, is it possible for a country to be free and sovereign with no reference to the EU in its affairs ( given that every country only trades with other countries if their standards and price are met)and trade with the EU ( eg like Australia) It is simple. And I am highlighting why the referendum was totally deficient for leave voters because it was far too simple. Hence why leave voters are angry about May’s deal despite us leaving the EU with it.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 18:53:16 GMT
Yes we can. If you are right, point me to the EU legislation that defines what income tax rates must be at and then explain why each nation has different rates and thresholds. Yet again avoiding the question Ii am talking about all tax Not the taxes you chose to mention Are we free to set all forms of taxation or abolish any form of taxation Yes or no Yes, although we may face sanctions from the EU on some rather obscure taxes. We are not able to torture prisoners of war or invade a country by ourselves. We won’t be able to do either once we leave the EU. Does that mean we are not an independent, sovereign nation? If we left on WTO rules we would be bound by an entire new set of international trading laws which would be enforceable against us like breaching EU laws on VAT would be now. Does that mean we won’t be an independent, sovereign nation if we were to leave on WTO rules? Or are you hypercritical? You can’t want to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons without also wanting to sever all ties with international laws we are bound by and will be bound by when we are no longer in the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 18:53:34 GMT
I'm afraid it is not that simple but the answer is defacto we would still be IN, with an ease in the future of being more fully in . Do my answer is Yes. But this has been part of the problem and confusion of the deceitful methods of the EU through Ever Closer Union to entrap the UK without the consent of the people....or at present because we are not in the Euro / other opt outs you could argue that we are not fully in....the Leavers voted for true BREXIT, independence, Sovereignty, no SM, CU EU CT....do May's deal does not deliver that no matter how some politicians try to claim it...s divide and rule ploy. I've answered your question..Yes Answer mine.... irrespective of whether you think it is good or bad thing, is it possible for a country to be free and sovereign with no reference to the EU in its affairs ( given that every country only trades with other countries if their standards and price are met)and trade with the EU ( eg like Australia) It is simple. And I am highlighting why the referendum was totally deficient for leave voters because it was far too simple. Hence why leave voters are angry about May’s deal despite us leaving the EU with it. No it wasn't . The question was approved , well debated and about 34 m turned out believing that the government would honour its promise simple Democracy. If you didn't get it or wanted to delve deeper you should have asked the question s before the vote or not voted. That's what you should do when asked to make a decision. Enough people knew enough to vote ( or they understood sovereign nations and Democracy) ... just because you/ Remainers now want to complicate things by talking about deals is simply s device to undermine the result. I notice that you have not answered my question
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 18:54:07 GMT
Which referendum are you talking about? All I was asked was whether we should remain in the Eu or leave it. I wasn’t asked about democracy or sovereignty. I think you thought you were voting for something else. I'm afraid you don't get it Oggy..."in or out " does actually mean something ( and that something is to do with sovereignty and now Democracy) and was not to do with " deals"... that's why ordinary people understood the question So you want out of all international treaties right?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 18:55:19 GMT
It is simple. And I am highlighting why the referendum was totally deficient for leave voters because it was far too simple. Hence why leave voters are angry about May’s deal despite us leaving the EU with it. No it wasn't . The question was approved , well debated and about 34 m turned out believing that the government would honour its promise simple Democracy. If you didn't get it or wanted to delve deeper you should have asked the question s before the vote or not voted. That's what you should do when asked to make a decision. Enough people knew enough to vote ( or they understood sovereign nations and Democracy) ... just because you/ Remainers now want to complicate things by talking about deals is simply s device to undermine the result. I notice that you have not answered my question You seem to think the question asked a great deal more than leave or remain in the EU. I repeat myself, but is Switzerland a member state of the EU? Is Norway?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 18:58:11 GMT
If our government wants to lower tax rates to stimulate the economy it could, including VAT Do you actually read posts As I have said on more than one post Yes we can alter the rate of vat What we cannot do is decide to abolish vat on certain goods Untill we are able to do so we are not a independent free country Sod the economy Sod immigration I voted for freedom I want freedom whatever the cost So you want out of every single international treaty we are a signatory to? Or are you a hypocrite? You also don’t want to trade under WTO rules as we will be bound by international laws we have not solely set. How do you want to trade? What you want is total isolation, which is idiotic. 100% sovereignty does not exist. Not even in North Korea.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 19:02:56 GMT
No it wasn't . The question was approved , well debated and about 34 m turned out believing that the government would honour its promise simple Democracy. If you didn't get it or wanted to delve deeper you should have asked the question s before the vote or not voted. That's what you should do when asked to make a decision. Enough people knew enough to vote ( or they understood sovereign nations and Democracy) ... just because you/ Remainers now want to complicate things by talking about deals is simply s device to undermine the result. I notice that you have not answered my question You seem to think the question asked a great deal more than leave or remain in the EU. I repeat myself, but is Switzerland a member state of the EU? Is Norway? I didn't know that you have asked that question. They have a trading relationship with the EU that amounts , in one sense, you could say partly in it out. The Referendum question was made absolutely clear and had nothing to do with deals or the arrangements of Norway , Switzerland or Lichtenstein for that matter. If you didn't understand the question you should have clarified it before voting. And it is you who has not answered my question
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 19:04:19 GMT
Yet again avoiding the question Ii am talking about all tax Not the taxes you chose to mention Are we free to set all forms of taxation or abolish any form of taxation Yes or no Yes, although we may face sanctions from the EU on some rather obscure taxes. We are not able to torture prisoners of war or invade a country by ourselves. We won’t be able to do either once we leave the EU. Does that mean we are not an independent, sovereign nation? If we left on WTO rules we would be bound by an entire new set of international trading laws which would be enforceable against us like breaching EU laws on VAT would be now. Does that mean we won’t be an independent, sovereign nation if we were to leave on WTO rules? Or are you hypercritical? You can’t want to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons without also wanting to sever all ties with international laws we are bound by and will be bound by when we are no longer in the EU. Unlike yourself I’m prepared to answer a question I frankly don’t give a flying fuck for international law As don’t China Russia Or America
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 19:04:33 GMT
I'm afraid you don't get it Oggy..."in or out " does actually mean something ( and that something is to do with sovereignty and now Democracy) and was not to do with " deals"... that's why ordinary people understood the question So you want out of all international treaties right? Oggy. Wrong. You've lost the plot again. I have not said that. Your comment has nothing to do with delivering the UK Referendum to Remain or to Leave the EU
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 2, 2019 11:20:54 GMT
Yet again avoiding the question Ii am talking about all tax Not the taxes you chose to mention Are we free to set all forms of taxation or abolish any form of taxation Yes or no Yes, although we may face sanctions from the EU on some rather obscure taxes. We are not able to torture prisoners of war or invade a country by ourselves. We won’t be able to do either once we leave the EU. Does that mean we are not an independent, sovereign nation? If we left on WTO rules we would be bound by an entire new set of international trading laws which would be enforceable against us like breaching EU laws on VAT would be now. Does that mean we won’t be an independent, sovereign nation if we were to leave on WTO rules? Or are you hypercritical? You can’t want to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons without also wanting to sever all ties with international laws we are bound by and will be bound by when we are no longer in the EU. Some lovely strawman there oggy, the WTO sets rules on tariffs and such like between all countries I suggest you look up the dispute reconcilliation process, enforcement isn't really the word I'd use, from memory a country has to complain and if you are really really in the wrong you might get a very stern telling off..... But thats by the by you know its not an accurate comparison, WTO rules apply to all countries, the WTO does not gain any benefit or power from these rules, the EU is seeking to gain these from the WA and in addition also wants the sole power to decide on any disputes. Personally I think the WA is wank and would prefer WTO brexit but its clear cowardly politicians wont do this so WA it is then get someone in as PM who will do the trade deal properly or walk away.
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Post by Northy on Jan 2, 2019 11:55:36 GMT
The Referendum was about not being in the Union, controlling our own taxes etc without reference to the EU. You have just said that the EU legislates over some of them ( and the Agricultural policy/Fishing policy/ Trade policy/ Industrial policy etc). Sovereignty and democracy Which referendum are you talking about? All I was asked was whether we should remain in the Eu or leave it. I wasn’t asked about democracy or sovereignty. I think you thought you were voting for something else. So you are saying you didn't know what you were voting for then Shall we post the videos of Camerons speeches again, telling us exactly what leave meant
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Post by yeokel on Jan 2, 2019 12:20:49 GMT
Paying VAT on your energy bills or your wife's sanitary products may be irrelevant to you but it is a mandatory Tax as instructed by the EU and affects the very poorest in our communities Ok, but what about competition laws and cosumer rights and workers rights? All those benefit the very poorest far more than the impact of VAT. EU law says the standard VAT rate on energy bills must be at least 15%. Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU............. “ Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU.” Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but as a late entry in to this part of the thread, could I point out that the vat rate on domestic energy is 5%? For business use, it is 20% but as most business reclaims VAT paid, it is effectively 0%. Where do you get your 20% figure from, Oggy, or is it just another of your fantasies and lies made up to support your belief of how shit the UK is compared with the EU?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 2, 2019 13:57:24 GMT
Ok, but what about competition laws and cosumer rights and workers rights? All those benefit the very poorest far more than the impact of VAT. EU law says the standard VAT rate on energy bills must be at least 15%. Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU............. “ Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU.” Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but as a late entry in to this part of the thread, could I point out that the vat rate on domestic energy is 5%? For business use, it is 20% but as most business reclaims VAT paid, it is effectively 0%. Where do you get your 20% figure from, Oggy, or is it just another of your fantasies and lies made up to support your belief of how shit the UK is compared with the EU? Totally agree with the above But my my entire point is the Eu forces us to charge vat we cannot as a member turn round and say we will not charge any vat on energy supply
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Post by harryburrows on Jan 2, 2019 14:25:45 GMT
Ok, but what about competition laws and cosumer rights and workers rights? All those benefit the very poorest far more than the impact of VAT. EU law says the standard VAT rate on energy bills must be at least 15%. Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU............. “ Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU.” Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but as a late entry in to this part of the thread, could I point out that the vat rate on domestic energy is 5%? For business use, it is 20% but as most business reclaims VAT paid, it is effectively 0%. Where do you get your 20% figure from, Oggy, or is it just another of your fantasies and lies made up to support your belief of how shit the UK is compared with the EU? I was going to point this out but couldn't be arsed .
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Post by 4372 on Jan 2, 2019 19:14:27 GMT
Which referendum are you talking about? All I was asked was whether we should remain in the Eu or leave it. I wasn’t asked about democracy or sovereignty. I think you thought you were voting for something else. So you are saying you didn't know what you were voting for then Shall we post the videos of Camerons speeches again, telling us exactly what leave meant It matters not one bit what David Cameron said before the Referendum. It matters no more than what Boris put on the bus. All that matters is the Referendum Question itself; Leave or Remain.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 2, 2019 20:33:32 GMT
So you are saying you didn't know what you were voting for then Shall we post the videos of Camerons speeches again, telling us exactly what leave meant It matters not one bit what David Cameron said before the Referendum. It matters no more than what Boris put on the bus. All that matters is the Referendum Question itself; Leave or Remain. Correct And the answer was leave Time for the gutless charlatan’s masquerading as MPs got on with the job
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 2, 2019 21:06:31 GMT
Gisela Stuart always makes sense
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Post by 4372 on Jan 2, 2019 21:57:31 GMT
It matters not one bit what David Cameron said before the Referendum. It matters no more than what Boris put on the bus. All that matters is the Referendum Question itself; Leave or Remain. Correct And the answer was leave Time for the gutless charlatan’s masquerading as MPs got on with the job And the UK is on schedule to leave the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 2, 2019 22:15:10 GMT
I agree with Raab, we should have left ( ie implement the Referendum as 4632 says) and then negotiate a deal , if the EU want one.
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Post by shangamuzo on Jan 2, 2019 22:52:58 GMT
SuperCanada with a Tech solution to the Irish border issue might get through parliament.
What's on the table at the moment has has no chance.
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