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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 31, 2018 18:45:45 GMT
For me the Brexit question has been one of the best things to have happened politically in my lifetime. It has always been a concern that 30 to 40 per cent of the electorate don't bother to vote. There might be many reasons for this , but the basic root cause is that those people who don't vote don't see the point in doing so. ...or they would have. The simple question of whether as a country we wanted to Remain in the EU or Leave resonated with more people in our history to result in the biggest turn out in our history. On the day of the vote every single person who voted did so knowing what they were voting for and believing that their vote would count. To say otherwise is disrespectful , arrogant and derisory towards each and every voter. Their vote and their reasons for making their decision are as valid as yours , no matter what you think..... they could say the same about your decision . The ballot box and a belief in the political system is the basis of our democracy. Not to honour the result is to undermine the very system. All the talk about illegality, advisory, not knowing what we voted for , mind changing... etc etc are simply attempts to undermine the result and none of those issues were brought up before the Referendum. If any election had been scrutinised as much as this, and if there had been such a delay in implementing the result those accusations could be made of any election. Most importantly it is the only election in which the usual loyalty lines have not only been blurred but have been rearranged. This hasn't been left v right, Conservative v Labour but largely the " usually disenfranchised and working class" against " the system". The basic reason that there hss been so much confusion and deliberately created chaos is because those tasked with delivering the result don't want to do so and are in cahoots with the EU in not wanting us to leave. The powerful against the powerless. Unfortunately threat and fear of economic catastrophe, in working class terms " losing your job", is the only weapon that those who intend on undermining Democracy have and since they control the information, the institutions and the media they have the means to constantly and persistently undermine the vote. For me it is classic Marxism, a parallel being controlling the means of production and the instruments of the state. I think that Marx was right in his interpretation of society, the exploiters and the exploited , not necessarily so good in being pragmatic and astute in appealing to reason and the middle ground, instead of resorting to revolution....his vocabulary puts many people off , who don't consider themselves to be the extreme.( In other words his Socialist vision/ the socialist vision of many socialists as portrayed in the press is not the answer) The next 88 days to " Brexit" are vital for the future of the country. I still think that it could go either way. I think that those who think that they are on the left are the most guilty of misleading and betraying the working class, playing into the hands of the political elite, the political class and our rulers who are found in the Labour party, the Conservative party, the LibDems and the EU parliament. If our Democracy is undermined the working class are the ones who will suffer and if their vote is ignored they will certainly feel undermined and they will be right. The promises made to them by the Government before the Referendum were absolutely clear. All the discussion since has been generated and perpetuated by those who want to renege on that promise....and thereby betraying the working class. It's now about Democracy and the Political system of the UK...... people are not stupid and if the vote is not honoured( irrespective if YOUR inability to accept the result for WHATEVER Your reasons ) tgen the system is going to be held in contempt. What tge consequences of that are. ....who knows?) All is forgiven. Can you please go back to your copy and paste routine. Certainly a paste for you. No comment on the content then? Divert eh? Nothing constructive? Here are a couple of good ones for you. I think " come to heel" is very telling in the EU/ UK relationship. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-must-find-the-courage-to-tell-us-we-were-wrong-fq2tspd7v
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Post by sorethumbs on Jan 1, 2019 9:42:41 GMT
The likes of oggy, Bath and Essex would have no problems whatsoever with this. After all they fully agree with 'more Europe' all this WA does is shorten the time to our complete surrender of sovereignty. If the vote to leave isn't carried out properly and we end up (by some other means than this WA) staying in, then all that is contained in that article (and more) will come to fruition eventually anyway. Happy New Year everyone btw
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Post by ravey123 on Jan 1, 2019 10:38:24 GMT
What a surprise that that most useless of civil servants Sadiq Knan't manages to politicise the new years display in London. If he put half the effort into trying to solve gang and knife crime in London as he does ramming his views down people's throats that city of the elite and powerful would be a much safer place to visit and live.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 11:41:02 GMT
We set our tax rates. Compare French, German, English and Scottish tax rates. You will see that they are ALL different. VAT has to be charged on certain things but in the grand scheme of things, that’s utterly irrelevant and about as good a reason to leave the EU as blue passports. VAT rates across the EU are different. So quite simply the answer is no we can’t set are tax and vat rates In a free independent country vat doesn’t have to be charged at all In a free and independent country you may be able to discriminate against people of different races or because of their sexuality. Is that a good thing? 99% of our tax laws are our own. The 1% that aren’t are not hugely relevant as all it means is some tax must be charged on certain products and the level is not defined. Why is that worth leaving the EU over? Spending billions on no deal planning is worth not having VAT? Is the plan to get rid of VAT altogether when we leave?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 11:53:07 GMT
We set our tax rates. Compare French, German, English and Scottish tax rates. You will see that they are ALL different. VAT has to be charged on certain things but in the grand scheme of things, that’s utterly irrelevant and about as good a reason to leave the EU as blue passports. VAT rates across the EU are different. Paying VAT on your energy bills or your wife's sanitary products may be irrelevant to you but it is a mandatory Tax as instructed by the EU and affects the very poorest in our communities Ok, but what about competition laws and cosumer rights and workers rights? All those benefit the very poorest far more than the impact of VAT. EU law says the standard VAT rate on energy bills must be at least 15%. Our government chooses to make this 20%. So it is our domestic law that charges a higher rate of VAT on energy than under EU law. Blame our government, not the EU. The same cannot be said about VAT on products and the EU should get a move on in zero rating it for sanitary products. It’s 5% now. An additional £2billion of tax payers just was allocated for no-deal planning, so obviously this 5% VaT charge is a drop in the ocean of what brexit is costing each of us.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 11:56:21 GMT
What a surprise that that most useless of civil servants Sadiq Knan't manages to politicise the new years display in London. If he put half the effort into trying to solve gang and knife crime in London as he does ramming his views down people's throats that city of the elite and powerful would be a much safer place to visit and live. I feel very safe living here in London. Would you have preferred it if Khan had said “London is closed” to Europeans? Is that what you want? How can anyone possibly criticise Khan for trying to give a positive message to Europe and the people who live here? Such little England thinking.
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Post by 3putts on Jan 1, 2019 11:57:36 GMT
We set our tax rates. Compare French, German, English and Scottish tax rates. You will see that they are ALL different. VAT has to be charged on certain things but in the grand scheme of things, that’s utterly irrelevant and about as good a reason to leave the EU as blue passports. VAT rates across the EU are different. So quite simply the answer is no we can’t set are tax and vat rates In a free independent country vat doesn’t have to be charged at all oh yes this tory government is going to aboloish vat as soon as we leave the eu. firkin el brexiters eh
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 11:58:49 GMT
The likes of oggy, Bath and Essex would have no problems whatsoever with this. After all they fully agree with 'more Europe' all this WA does is shorten the time to our complete surrender of sovereignty. If the vote to leave isn't carried out properly and we end up (by some other means than this WA) staying in, then all that is contained in that article (and more) will come to fruition eventually anyway. Happy New Year everyone btw I have a problem with the WA. It means we leave the EU and that’s a bad thing for the nation. If we want to keep trading a lot with the EU when we leave, whatever we agree, we will always be a rule taker and not a rule maker. Brexit = less sovereignty. All leave voters voted for was to leave. Nothing more. So May’s deal100% achieves that yet surprise surprise leave voters aren’t happy and they are too scared to vote again on how they want to leave and what they want to leave to because they are scared of the will of the people.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 11:59:56 GMT
So quite simply the answer is no we can’t set are tax and vat rates In a free independent country vat doesn’t have to be charged at all oh yes this tory government is going to aboloish vat as soon as we leave the eu. firkin el brexiters eh They set the standard Vat rate for energy higher than the EU legislates for.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 12:02:24 GMT
So are you saying VAT rates are uniform across the EU!? No, I am quite literally saying, "We're not able to set VAT independently" Yes we are. We set Vat for energy 5% higherthanthe EU legislates for. Doyou think VAT will be abolished when we leave?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 12:05:06 GMT
So quite simply the answer is no we can’t set are tax and vat rates In a free independent country vat doesn’t have to be charged at all In a free and independent country you may be able to discriminate against people of different races or because of their sexuality. Is that a good thing? 99% of our tax laws are our own. The 1% that aren’t are not hugely relevant as all it means is some tax must be charged on certain products and the level is not defined. Why is that worth leaving the EU over? Spending billions on no deal planning is worth not having VAT? Is the plan to get rid of VAT altogether when we leave? Christ man/woman stop clutching at straws The answer is no we are not free to set are taxation rates As ive said in a previous post Those that don’t find the level of vat a problem probably have far to much disposable income Are you suggesting that those who want a free and independent country may well be homophobic racists Or was it a piss poor atempt to deflect from the original question
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Post by lordb on Jan 1, 2019 12:06:30 GMT
No, I am quite literally saying, "We're not able to set VAT independently" Yes we are. We set Vat for energy 5% higherthanthe EU legislates for. Doyou think VAT will be abolished when we leave? Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 12:13:51 GMT
Yes we are. We set Vat for energy 5% higherthanthe EU legislates for. Doyou think VAT will be abolished when we leave? Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20 Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu
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Post by lordb on Jan 1, 2019 12:21:21 GMT
Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20 Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu The impression I've got is some people appear to believe VAT will be reduced. I find that bizarre. VAT has been reduced before (this century) albeit temporarily. The EU can't prevent that.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 1, 2019 13:42:58 GMT
Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu The impression I've got is some people appear to believe VAT will be reduced. I find that bizarre. VAT has been reduced before (this century) albeit temporarily. The EU can't prevent that. But they can stop the uk from making certain things vat free
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 1, 2019 15:36:30 GMT
Yes we are. We set Vat for energy 5% higherthanthe EU legislates for. Doyou think VAT will be abolished when we leave? Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20 I'd like the energy companies to be nationalised and VAT on energy reduced below the level mandated by the EU. In that respect I guess I'm in line with Jeremy Corbyn. I just wish he'd had the balls to make the positive left wing case for leaving the EU, as he'd always done up until he had a sniff of power.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 1, 2019 15:38:26 GMT
Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20 Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu Exactly. One size does not fit all. That's my fundamental problem with the whole thing.
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Post by sorethumbs on Jan 1, 2019 16:49:37 GMT
The likes of oggy, Bath and Essex would have no problems whatsoever with this. After all they fully agree with 'more Europe' all this WA does is shorten the time to our complete surrender of sovereignty. If the vote to leave isn't carried out properly and we end up (by some other means than this WA) staying in, then all that is contained in that article (and more) will come to fruition eventually anyway. Happy New Year everyone btw I have a problem with the WA. It means we leave the EU and that’s a bad thing for the nation. If we want to keep trading a lot with the EU when we leave, whatever we agree, we will always be a rule taker and not a rule maker. Brexit = less sovereignty. All leave voters voted for was to leave. Nothing more. So May’s deal100% achieves that yet surprise surprise leave voters aren’t happy and they are too scared to vote again on how they want to leave and what they want to leave to because they are scared of the will of the people. So your only problem (as I suspected) with the WA is that it means we leave the EU? (Even though it's actually the foundation for BRINO) We will still trade with the EU regardless and if some certain EU standard has to be met for whatever gizmo, produce or product then obviously we would have to comply with that standard. That doesn't make us a rule taker. Audi/Mercedes etc sell right hand drive cars here - No-one has ever said they are bending to our rules, they are just selling a product that is relevant to the market. I'm not getting into the circular with you about sovereignty. It's plain that you have a different view of what sovereignty means than what it actually means but there you go. The WA absolutely, 100%, doesn't achieve leaving. It leaves us in a far worse position than remaining or leaving on WTO. Damn right I'm not happy with it. You are happy with it apart from the fact we would be losing an EU flag. Also, we've already had a referendum. Why would a new one be the will of the people but you hate the actual referendum being called the will of the people? PS. Not had chance to congratulate you and your partner on your recent news, so - Congrats to you both!
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:03:49 GMT
In a free and independent country you may be able to discriminate against people of different races or because of their sexuality. Is that a good thing? 99% of our tax laws are our own. The 1% that aren’t are not hugely relevant as all it means is some tax must be charged on certain products and the level is not defined. Why is that worth leaving the EU over? Spending billions on no deal planning is worth not having VAT? Is the plan to get rid of VAT altogether when we leave? Christ man/woman stop clutching at straws The answer is no we are not free to set are taxation rates As ive said in a previous post Those that don’t find the level of vat a problem probably have far to much disposable income Are you suggesting that those who want a free and independent country may well be homophobic racists Or was it a piss poor atempt to deflect from the original question Yes we can. If you are right, point me to the EU legislation that defines what income tax rates must be at and then explain why each nation has different rates and thresholds.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:04:49 GMT
Does concern me that some Brexiteers seem to think not happen. Would expect VAT to stay and stay at %20 Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu If our government wants to lower tax rates to stimulate the economy it could, including VAT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:06:37 GMT
I have a problem with the WA. It means we leave the EU and that’s a bad thing for the nation. If we want to keep trading a lot with the EU when we leave, whatever we agree, we will always be a rule taker and not a rule maker. Brexit = less sovereignty. All leave voters voted for was to leave. Nothing more. So May’s deal100% achieves that yet surprise surprise leave voters aren’t happy and they are too scared to vote again on how they want to leave and what they want to leave to because they are scared of the will of the people. So your only problem (as I suspected) with the WA is that it means we leave the EU? (Even though it's actually the foundation for BRINO) We will still trade with the EU regardless and if some certain EU standard has to be met for whatever gizmo, produce or product then obviously we would have to comply with that standard. That doesn't make us a rule taker. Audi/Mercedes etc sell right hand drive cars here - No-one has ever said they are bending to our rules, they are just selling a product that is relevant to the market. I'm not getting into the circular with you about sovereignty. It's plain that you have a different view of what sovereignty means than what it actually means but there you go. The WA absolutely, 100%, doesn't achieve leaving. It leaves us in a far worse position than remaining or leaving on WTO. Damn right I'm not happy with it. You are happy with it apart from the fact we would be losing an EU flag. Also, we've already had a referendum. Why would a new one be the will of the people but you hate the actual referendum being called the will of the people? PS. Not had chance to congratulate you and your partner on your recent news, so - Congrats to you both! If May’s deal goes through, will we be a member of the EU in April 2019? If the answer is no, that’s the leave vote 100% respected and carried out. Any referendum is the will of the people on a particular day. And thanks for the congrats!!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:07:52 GMT
Am I naive enough to believe post brexit that vat will suddenly be reduced of course not What a lot of remainers struggle to understand is it’s not if it’s reduced It’s the right to be able to do so if the government decided to something it can not do to stimulate the economy whilst in the Eu If our government wants to lower tax rates to stimulate the economy it could, including VAT The very fact that we are discussing the question illustrates the problem. I don't think that New Zealand will be discussing its tax policy with Australia. Happy New Year!
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Post by sorethumbs on Jan 1, 2019 17:29:38 GMT
So your only problem (as I suspected) with the WA is that it means we leave the EU? (Even though it's actually the foundation for BRINO) We will still trade with the EU regardless and if some certain EU standard has to be met for whatever gizmo, produce or product then obviously we would have to comply with that standard. That doesn't make us a rule taker. Audi/Mercedes etc sell right hand drive cars here - No-one has ever said they are bending to our rules, they are just selling a product that is relevant to the market. I'm not getting into the circular with you about sovereignty. It's plain that you have a different view of what sovereignty means than what it actually means but there you go. The WA absolutely, 100%, doesn't achieve leaving. It leaves us in a far worse position than remaining or leaving on WTO. Damn right I'm not happy with it. You are happy with it apart from the fact we would be losing an EU flag. Also, we've already had a referendum. Why would a new one be the will of the people but you hate the actual referendum being called the will of the people? PS. Not had chance to congratulate you and your partner on your recent news, so - Congrats to you both! If May’s deal goes through, will we be a member of the EU in April 2019? If the answer is no, that’s the leave vote 100% respected and carried out. Any referendum is the will of the people on a particular day. And thanks for the congrats!! The thing is we can't say we've left whilst still carrying the baggage. Regardless of what name you give to it the only tangible thing that changes is our seat at the table when it comes to EU discussions. Leaving on WTO and future negotiations is more and more desirable as we get closer to March and I wish and hope that is what all the game playing is really about. We can never have a proper negotiation under the current conditions
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:34:49 GMT
If our government wants to lower tax rates to stimulate the economy it could, including VAT The very fact that we are discussing the question illustrates the problem. I don't think that New Zealand will be discussing its tax policy with Australia. Happy New Year! I agree. The fact people think the EU sets our tax policy highlights why the referendum was anti-democratic as people still don’t understand what the EU does and doesn’t legislate over.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:35:42 GMT
The very fact that we are discussing the question illustrates the problem. I don't think that New Zealand will be discussing its tax policy with Australia. Happy New Year! I agree. The fact people think the EU sets our tax policy highlights why the referendum was anti-democratic as people still don’t understand what the EU does and doesn’t legislate over. You have missed the point again....but the choice of your words " what the EU does and does not legislate over" gives it away....cf.NZ and Australia
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:36:10 GMT
If May’s deal goes through, will we be a member of the EU in April 2019? If the answer is no, that’s the leave vote 100% respected and carried out. Any referendum is the will of the people on a particular day. And thanks for the congrats!! The thing is we can't say we've left whilst still carrying the baggage. Regardless of what name you give to it the only tangible thing that changes is our seat at the table when it comes to EU discussions. Leaving on WTO and future negotiations is more and more desirable as we get closer to March and I wish and hope that is what all the game playing is really about. We can never have a proper negotiation under the current conditions You are either in or out. Right now we are in, in April we won’t be (unless something changes). Switzerland and Norway aren’t in the EU.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:37:50 GMT
I agree. The fact people think the EU sets our tax policy highlights why the referendum was anti-democratic as people still don’t understand what the EU does and doesn’t legislate over. You have missed the point again No I haven’t. You were saying the fact we were having a discussion about who sets our tax policy is reason to show we shouldn’t be part of the EU. I say it’s reason people need to be better educated about the EU and what it does and doesn’t legislate over, particularly in this era of fake news.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 1, 2019 17:38:35 GMT
I agree. The fact people think the EU sets our tax policy highlights why the referendum was anti-democratic as people still don’t understand what the EU does and doesn’t legislate over. You have missed the point again....but the choice of your words " what the EU does and does not legislate over" gives it away....cf.NZ and Australia NZ and Australia aren’t in a union together. It’s comparing apples and pears
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:38:45 GMT
The thing is we can't say we've left whilst still carrying the baggage. Regardless of what name you give to it the only tangible thing that changes is our seat at the table when it comes to EU discussions. Leaving on WTO and future negotiations is more and more desirable as we get closer to March and I wish and hope that is what all the game playing is really about. We can never have a proper negotiation under the current conditions You are either in or out. Right now we are in, in April we won’t be (unless something changes). Switzerland and Norway aren’t in the EU. Exactly but the WA amounts to IN... part of the con trick
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 1, 2019 17:39:26 GMT
You have missed the point again No I haven’t. You were saying the fact we were having a discussion about who sets our tax policy is reason to show we shouldn’t be part of the EU. I say it’s reason people need to be better educated about the EU and what it does and doesn’t legislate over, particularly in this era of fake news. the choice of your words " what the EU does and does not legislate over" gives it away....cf.NZ and Australia
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