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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 9:12:59 GMT
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Post by 4372 on Dec 19, 2018 9:23:11 GMT
No deal is Leave. So is Norway style. So is Canada style. So is the thousands of other arrangements that could be sorted out between now and when we leave the EU. You speak for 17.4m people say "we all knew" - that's quite the claim. I don’t speak for 17.4 million people, I speak for every household that received David Cameron’s leaflet which told us leave means leave, in his TV statements he specifically emphasised the point. So at the time of the referendum we all knew what leave meant. The fact that in the intervening 30 months, the establishment, the media and various other outlets have introduced different versions of what they believe Leave meant has clouded the issue. I agree that there are now so many variants of Leave that don’t resemble what Leave meant on the day of the vote that some folk can say “ You didn’t know what you voted for “ but on that day in June 2016 we all did. There is a big,gaping,hole in your argument here though. That government leaflet you mention. The one that Brexit campaigners were telling us all was just a part of Project Fear. Why would anyone believe the arguments in such a piece of manipulative propaganda. Yet now you say that the leaflet could be trusted, and that at the time of the referendum we all knew what leave meant? |
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Post by Northy on Dec 19, 2018 9:47:21 GMT
and remainers say that brexiteers didnt know what they were voting for ferfuxache Pay attention. I said that Brexiters do t know what type of Brexit they weee voting for. It was spelled out many times, leave the customs union, leave the European commission, Courts etc. |
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Post by prettything on Dec 19, 2018 9:52:38 GMT
It wasn’t spelled how we would leave.
Crashing out of the EU was hardly discussed by the leave leaders because of the ramifications of that. Norway, Canada was also talked about, also. But there was nothing on the table.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2018 10:01:10 GMT
Pay attention. I said that Brexiters do t know what type of Brexit they weee voting for. It was spelled out many times, leave the customs union, leave the European commission, Courts etc. Can you explain why Hannan and Farage were both talking about the possibility of other arrangements either before or immediately after the referendum vote then? |
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Dec 19, 2018 10:53:59 GMT
Hear hear !! I think this MP has got it spot on and is only saying what a lot of frustrated and furious Leave voters are thinking. Tell the arrogant and condescending EU what we want or they can get stuffed and they can forget our £39 billion ! I think it would certainly focus their attention somewhat. Imagine what we could achieve if the whole country got behind a “bollocks to EU” united approach. The EU would shit itself, instead we have more than enough whiny, doom mongering individuals who lack confidence in themselves and the country thinking the sun is going to stop shining. Will there be tough times?...yes. Can we get through them..yes, if we stick together. The person or thing to unite the country may actually end up being the EU itself if they keep pushing, which will be kind of ironic. We are a divided country. From Left to Right. From Rich to Poor. Nearly half of Scotland wants out. Northern Ireland. The North East is different to London. People experience what happens differently. A 10% loss on an investment for somebody is someone else losing their job and struggling to pay rent/mortgage. And they can't be helped by a cash starved local council. And given that nobody since us has got anywhere close to leaving the EU, At this point it's delusion to think we'll destroy the bloc on our own. |
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Dec 19, 2018 10:57:39 GMT
What are these 'opportunities'? Not one who thinks leaving the EU is end of the world, but often this "we'll do wonderfully once we're out" is based on assumptions and other shit To be honest, I’m no ‘world trade expert’ but I do see, for example, a certain amount of friction preventing trade between EU members and the USA. I’ll accept that the Donald is causing friction everywhere but I’m confident our companies can overcome many of these ‘frictions’ on a one to one basis. But, rather than go through a whole list of potential opportunities for both exports & imports, I’ll post a link to a short Spectator article which only takes two or three minutes to read which suggests many more answers than I can do. Spectator Article - Why a no-deal Brexit is nothing to fearI’m not saying it can/will be easy but there is a whole world out there, outside the EU with which to form new trade deals or, perhaps, improve existing ones in agriculture, manufacturing, financial services, pharma, and so on and so on. Don’t overlook the fact that the EU itself is a member of the WTO so once we are a member in our own right we will be continuing to trade with the EU as well. Perhaps, in the short term in a reduced capacity as they ‘punish us’ but Britain (or, at least, the peoples of these isles) has been trading with Europe for thousands of years and will continue to do so for thousands of years too. I am wary about a trade deal with America because Trump's 'America First' means he thinks other countries are gaining unfairly at the expense of America. As much as he 'loves' Britain, he won't exempt them from this. And over time the 'chaos' can be averted or gone completely, but this is a country that doesn't react well to a little bit of disruption. And this is a country that is hardly doing great atm, any government project is chaos, transport is a mess, many public services need a lot more funds than they are currently getting. |
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Post by yeokel on Dec 19, 2018 11:26:31 GMT
To be honest, I’m no ‘world trade expert’ but I do see, for example, a certain amount of friction preventing trade between EU members and the USA. I’ll accept that the Donald is causing friction everywhere but I’m confident our companies can overcome many of these ‘frictions’ on a one to one basis. But, rather than go through a whole list of potential opportunities for both exports & imports, I’ll post a link to a short Spectator article which only takes two or three minutes to read which suggests many more answers than I can do. Spectator Article - Why a no-deal Brexit is nothing to fearI’m not saying it can/will be easy but there is a whole world out there, outside the EU with which to form new trade deals or, perhaps, improve existing ones in agriculture, manufacturing, financial services, pharma, and so on and so on. Don’t overlook the fact that the EU itself is a member of the WTO so once we are a member in our own right we will be continuing to trade with the EU as well. Perhaps, in the short term in a reduced capacity as they ‘punish us’ but Britain (or, at least, the peoples of these isles) has been trading with Europe for thousands of years and will continue to do so for thousands of years too. I am wary about a trade deal with America because Trump's 'America First' means he thinks other countries are gaining unfairly at the expense of America. As much as he 'loves' Britain, he won't exempt them from this. And over time the 'chaos' can be averted or gone completely, but this is a country that doesn't react well to a little bit of disruption. And this is a country that is hardly doing great atm, any government project is chaos, transport is a mess, many public services need a lot more funds than they are currently getting. And this is all while we are still 'benefitting' from our membership of the EU. Can it really be about to get a whole lot worse? |
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Dec 19, 2018 11:49:20 GMT
I am wary about a trade deal with America because Trump's 'America First' means he thinks other countries are gaining unfairly at the expense of America. As much as he 'loves' Britain, he won't exempt them from this. And over time the 'chaos' can be averted or gone completely, but this is a country that doesn't react well to a little bit of disruption. And this is a country that is hardly doing great atm, any government project is chaos, transport is a mess, many public services need a lot more funds than they are currently getting. And this is all while we are still 'benefitting' from our membership of the EU. Can it really be about to get a whole lot worse? I worry, yes it can. |
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Post by 3putts on Dec 19, 2018 11:49:32 GMT
It wasn’t tax exiled right wing tabloid owners that voted in large enough numbers to cause a leave vote it was millions of poor and low income working men and women The very people who the Labour Party was formed to help and improve there lives Instead they are busy trying to betray these very people just to please the Islington luvies I see you failed to comment on the fact I would except may’s deal if it’s the only way we can leave There were many who read and listened to the tax exiled owned, tabloid papers, though . It’s interesting that The Sun have backed every general election winner. That’s some power! I’m glad you would back Mays plan. I don’t think there are too many on here who would back her Brexit. that is the sad thing about british politics today we might as well do the voting via the xfactor ffs. |
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Post by pearo on Dec 19, 2018 11:52:48 GMT
I don’t speak for 17.4 million people, I speak for every household that received David Cameron’s leaflet which told us leave means leave, in his TV statements he specifically emphasised the point. So at the time of the referendum we all knew what leave meant. The fact that in the intervening 30 months, the establishment, the media and various other outlets have introduced different versions of what they believe Leave meant has clouded the issue. I agree that there are now so many variants of Leave that don’t resemble what Leave meant on the day of the vote that some folk can say “ You didn’t know what you voted for “ but on that day in June 2016 we all did. How come the leave campaign which you supported stated that we would have the quickest trade deal in history Norway or Canada with bells on yet you and 17.4 all knew this was not going to happen ? I believed the incumbent Prime Minister at the time who told us all on numerous ocassions “ Leave means Leave “ , the fact that he withdrew from office meant that he couldn’t implement this ( This act itself being the first step on the road to a Remainer running the show ). Any statements made by Leave campaigners prior to the vote have been unable to be actioned because none of them have been given the sole authority to act on their statements, the current PM, parliament and the EU won’t allow us to leave and have undermined any Leave campaigner or negotiator in every way possible. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2018 12:02:17 GMT
How come the leave campaign which you supported stated that we would have the quickest trade deal in history Norway or Canada with bells on yet you and 17.4 all knew this was not going to happen ? I believed the incumbent Prime Minister at the time who told us all on numerous ocassions “ Leave means Leave “ , the fact that he withdrew from office meant that he couldn’t implement this ( This act itself being the first step on the road to a Remainer running the show ). Any statements made by Leave campaigners prior to the vote have been unable to be actioned because none of them have been given the sole authority to act on their statements, the current PM, parliament and the EU won’t allow us to leave and have undermined any Leave campaigner or negotiator in every way possible. It's not really about Leavers being able to enact a certain type of Brexit - it's about admitting that many of the versions of Brexit that were spoke about before or immediately after the referendum by Leavers are options for Brexit. Things like Norway+, May's WA, or any other plan which involves us leaving the EU are not in any way overturning the result of the referendum but are respecting the result of the referendum. That doesn't mean we have to like it, and everyone will have an opinion on the best way forward. I just think it's a load of bullshit that any of those versions I've talked about are not 'Brexit'. They are. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 19, 2018 12:07:33 GMT
😉  I would lay fair odds that is one thing he’ll not be to keen to see a rerun |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 19, 2018 12:09:03 GMT
It was going to be so simple. The negotiation phase of most of these deals, he added breezily, would most likely be concluded “within between 12 and 24 months” and would comprise a free trade area “massively larger than the EU”, most likely including Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – “and many others”. David Davies That’s exactly what leavers voted for, amongst other things. Step forward those that want to subvert democracy and here we are with business in turmoil because the government have not been allowed to do their job of taking us out. This was David Davies's hope and aspiration over 2 years ago sadly thwarted by those who would rather live shackled to the E.U. and its 28 (soon to be 27) unelected E.U. Commissioners. And you want to ridicule him. Really?? |
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 19, 2018 12:18:28 GMT
How come the leave campaign which you supported stated that we would have the quickest trade deal in history Norway or Canada with bells on yet you and 17.4 all knew this was not going to happen ? I believed the incumbent Prime Minister at the time who told us all on numerous ocassions “ Leave means Leave “ , the fact that he withdrew from office meant that he couldn’t implement this ( This act itself being the first step on the road to a Remainer running the show ). Any statements made by Leave campaigners prior to the vote have been unable to be actioned because none of them have been given the sole authority to act on their statements, the current PM, parliament and the EU won’t allow us to leave and have undermined any Leave campaigner or negotiator in every way possible. So you voted leave because you thought that leave would mean a hard Brexit (as stated by Cameron) but on the other hand you call any stories of hardship caused by a hard Brexit that Cameron and his remain campaign warned of as a part of project fear campaign,seems to be contradictory to me? |
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Post by stoke111 on Dec 19, 2018 12:21:14 GMT
This must be the longest thread in oatcake history?
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Post by Gods on Dec 19, 2018 12:52:00 GMT
2 questions for the hard-brexit brigade on here with regard to the post-leave immigration policy announced today.
1.With regard to the minimum salary requirement of £30,000 for skilled migrants. Who will do all the vital low paid jobs done by willing, bright, hard working migrants today? I'm thinking about Care home workers, Hospital workers, Fruit Pickers, Hotel cleaners, Construction Workers, Bar Staff and so on? From what I can see these are precisely the people we need. I don't sense any great hunger among the indigenous population today to take on these tasks for low pay. Seriously, who will do this work?
2.Do you not feel you are losing anything at all by giving up the freedom to live, work, study and love where ever you like in other EU countries? And if not perhaps you know someone likely a young person looking to study or work or an older person looking to retire somewhere warm who does?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 19, 2018 12:53:06 GMT
It was going to be so simple. The negotiation phase of most of these deals, he added breezily, would most likely be concluded “within between 12 and 24 months” and would comprise a free trade area “massively larger than the EU”, most likely including Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – “and many others”. David Davies Wait a minute here, on one hand you redicule David Davies for his plans for trade deals after Brexit than in your next post you say ......."it wasn’t spelled out exactly how we would leave. Crashing out of the EU was hardly discussed by the leave leaders because of the ramifications of that. Norway, Canada was also talked about, also. But there was nothing on the table." Of course there was "nothing on the table" as you put it because we had only just voted to leave and the Brexit process was gathering momentum. How do you know that leaving the E.U. was hardly discussed by the leave leaders? Or is it a matter of making things up to suit your agenda? |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 19, 2018 12:58:01 GMT
2 questions for the hard-brexit brigade on here with regard to the post-leave immigration policy announced today. 1.With regard to the minimum salary requirement of £30,000 for skilled migrants. Who will do all the vital low paid jobs done by willing, bright, hard working migrants today? I'm thinking about Care home workers, Hospital workers, Fruit Pickers, Hotel cleaners, Construction Workers, Bar Staff and so on? From what I can see these are precisely the people we need. I don't sense any great hunger among the indigenous population today to take on these tasks for low pay. Seriously, who will do this work? re: Q1 - I heard on the radio that people not in the Skills 2 bracket, i.e. not anyone earning over 30k will be allowed in for a year but must return home for 12 months before they can apply to work here again - so this shouldn't affect seasonal work too much for example. Gonna be a pisser when the brexiteers find this out en Masse. |
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Post by thevoid on Dec 19, 2018 13:01:43 GMT
Does Switzerland have any hard borders with the EU out of interest?
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Post by prettything on Dec 19, 2018 13:02:17 GMT
It was going to be so simple. The negotiation phase of most of these deals, he added breezily, would most likely be concluded “within between 12 and 24 months” and would comprise a free trade area “massively larger than the EU”, most likely including Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – “and many others”. David Davies That’s exactly what leavers voted for, amongst other things. Step forward those that want to subvert democracy and here we are with business in turmoil because the government have not been allowed to do their job of taking us out. This was David Davies's hope and aspiration over 2 years ago sadly thwarted by those who would rather live shackled to the E.U. and its 28 (soon to be 27) unelected E.U. Commissioners. And you want to ridicule him. Really?? Absolutely. He deserves all the ridicule in the world. He knew full well he couldn’t make such wide, complicated deals in that short space of time. Ridiculous. He either deliberately deceived voters on this or was so stupid that he thought he could do this. He’s either a lier or at best a clown. No wonder he didn’t last long . He got found out . Many voted on false promises. |
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Post by Davef on Dec 19, 2018 13:04:56 GMT
Does Switzerland have any hard borders with the EU out of interest? No, because they are members of EFTA, a perfectly good avenue for the UK to go down. Unfortunately it's a little too "European" for some people. |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 19, 2018 13:09:21 GMT
2 questions for the hard-brexit brigade on here with regard to the post-leave immigration policy announced today. 1.With regard to the minimum salary requirement of £30,000 for skilled migrants. Who will do all the vital low paid jobs done by willing, bright, hard working migrants today? I'm thinking about Care home workers, Hospital workers, Fruit Pickers, Hotel cleaners, Construction Workers, Bar Staff and so on? From what I can see these are precisely the people we need. I don't sense any great hunger among the indigenous population today to take on these tasks for low pay. Seriously, who will do this work? 2.Do you not feel you are losing anything at all by giving up the freedom to live, work, study and love where ever you like in other EU countries? And if not perhaps you know someone likely a young person looking to study or work or an older person looking to retire somewhere warm who does? 1. You clearly don't work in, or know anyone that works in the sectors you mention, hence the clichéd drivel that all immigrants are super hard workers & all the natives are lazy workshy wankers. Get out of your little bubble & go speak to some people, infact, you haven't even got to leave the house, just ask someone like TrickyDicky on here about it. 2. I, or anyone else isn't giving up anything. We'll all still be able to go & live, work, study & love all across the EU. More Brits go to live, work, study & love in Australia & the United States than any country in the Europe, last time I checked neither of those places were members of the EU. This bizarre notion people like you have that we're suddenly going to be barred from ever leaving Blighty is, well, bizarre. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2018 13:13:19 GMT
Does Switzerland have any hard borders with the EU out of interest? I guess we could join Schengen, but I'm not sure it would make too many people happy. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 19, 2018 13:26:53 GMT
2 questions for the hard-brexit brigade on here with regard to the post-leave immigration policy announced today. 1.With regard to the minimum salary requirement of £30,000 for skilled migrants. Who will do all the vital low paid jobs done by willing, bright, hard working migrants today? I'm thinking about Care home workers, Hospital workers, Fruit Pickers, Hotel cleaners, Construction Workers, Bar Staff and so on? From what I can see these are precisely the people we need. I don't sense any great hunger among the indigenous population today to take on these tasks for low pay. Seriously, who will do this work? 2.Do you not feel you are losing anything at all by giving up the freedom to live, work, study and love where ever you like in other EU countries? And if not perhaps you know someone likely a young person looking to study or work or an older person looking to retire somewhere warm who does? Me, for one. I am pissed off with people forgetting that there are loads of British people who do care and support work. I have been doing this work for years, and so have many friends. All, incidentally, voted for Brexit. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 19, 2018 13:28:23 GMT
2 questions for the hard-brexit brigade on here with regard to the post-leave immigration policy announced today. 1.With regard to the minimum salary requirement of £30,000 for skilled migrants. Who will do all the vital low paid jobs done by willing, bright, hard working migrants today? I'm thinking about Care home workers, Hospital workers, Fruit Pickers, Hotel cleaners, Construction Workers, Bar Staff and so on? From what I can see these are precisely the people we need. I don't sense any great hunger among the indigenous population today to take on these tasks for low pay. Seriously, who will do this work? 2.Do you not feel you are losing anything at all by giving up the freedom to live, work, study and love where ever you like in other EU countries? And if not perhaps you know someone likely a young person looking to study or work or an older person looking to retire somewhere warm who does? 1. You clearly don't work in, or know anyone that works in the sectors you mention, hence the clichéd drivel that all immigrants are super hard workers & all the natives are lazy workshy wankers. Get out of your little bubble & go speak to some people, infact, you haven't even got to leave the house, just ask someone like TrickyDicky on here about it. 2. I, or anyone else isn't giving up anything. We'll all still be able to go & live, work, study & love all across the EU. More Brits go to live, work, study & love in Australia & the United States than any country in the Europe, last time I checked neither of those places were members of the EU. This bizarre notion people like you have that we're suddenly going to be barred from ever leaving Blighty is, well, bizarre. Cheers, TDC. Missed this post before I replied. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 19, 2018 13:34:33 GMT
😉 I would lay fair odds that is one thing he’ll not be to keen to see a rerun He hasn't aged very well, has he? |
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Post by starkiller on Dec 19, 2018 13:48:26 GMT
Anna Soubry MP for Broxtowe ( majority at last election 836) has said if a no deal policy is persued she will resign the party whip, despite 54.6% of her constituents voting Leave. You really couldn’t make it up 54.6% voted to leave. That doesn't necessarily mean the majority want no deal. People voted to Leave, they did not vote for a deal with the EU. This, along with hard/soft Brexit, was yet another concept introduced after the vote. |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 19, 2018 13:49:36 GMT
Does Switzerland have any hard borders with the EU out of interest? No, because they are members of EFTA, a perfectly good avenue for the UK to go down. Unfortunately it's a little too "European" for some people. Are you saying that there's no border at all? |
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 19, 2018 13:50:08 GMT
This must be the longest thread in oatcake history? Don't forget yarmolenko 😊 |
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