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Post by prettything on Dec 18, 2018 17:10:33 GMT
There was no will of the people, full stop. I've always believed the 'will of the people' to mean a cherished tradition of majority rule, I would appreciate your interpretation. You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. |
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 18, 2018 17:11:13 GMT
Please clarify , not sure I get your point do you believe the binary choice of leaving the EU would have been enacted? Isn't that what we voted for over 2 years ago? |
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 18, 2018 17:21:12 GMT
I've always believed the 'will of the people' to mean a cherished tradition of majority rule, I would appreciate your interpretation. You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. It's becoming a little like an echo chamber on here at the moment, but when we voted over 2 years ago there was a very binary option, leave the EU or remain in the EU. I'm bored fucking rigid hearing about the different deals on the table and the multi choice options now available. The will of the people (majority rule) voted to leave. There will become a tipping point I think when a very large proportion of the country will grow even more tired with the pseudo intellectuals and establishment and demand that we just fucking crash out of the EU and flick two fingers as we go. |
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Post by prettything on Dec 18, 2018 17:26:09 GMT
You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. It's becoming a little like an echo chamber on here at the moment, but when we voted over 2 years ago there was a very binary option, leave the EU or remain in the EU. I'm bored fucking rigid hearing about the different deals on the table and the multi choice options now available. The will of the people (majority rule) voted to leave. There will become a tipping point I think when a very large proportion of the country will grow even more tired with the pseudo intellectuals and establishment and demand that we just fucking crash out of the EU and flick two fingers as we go. Echo chamber, tell me about it. I don’t think any minds are getting changed on here. The only way to win hearts and minds is a chat and a pint . Debating on forums like this always seems a bit futile. |
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Post by xchpotter on Dec 18, 2018 17:27:18 GMT
And I believe that it would give s voice to the silent majority again , as this fella alluded to, instead of being fed project fear, as though there is no alternative. Hear hear !! I think this MP has got it spot on and is only saying what a lot of frustrated and furious Leave voters are thinking. Tell the arrogant and condescending EU what we want or they can get stuffed and they can forget our £39 billion ! I think it would certainly focus their attention somewhat. Imagine what we could achieve if the whole country got behind a “bollocks to EU” united approach. The EU would shit itself, instead we have more than enough whiny, doom mongering individuals who lack confidence in themselves and the country thinking the sun is going to stop shining. Will there be tough times?...yes. Can we get through them..yes, if we stick together. The person or thing to unite the country may actually end up being the EU itself if they keep pushing, which will be kind of ironic. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 18, 2018 17:27:55 GMT
If at the 'end' of Brexit (whenever you could consider that to be) we do not have a membership of the EU, do you believe the binary choice of leaving the EU would have been enacted? Isn't that what we voted for over 2 years ago? Yes. I believe if we are no longer a part of the EU by the end of the process, then people will have got what they voted for and Brexit will have been enacted. That might be Norway/Canada style, it might be May's WA followed by a yet-to-be-discussed future deal between us and the EU, it might be no deal/WTO, or it might be under other circumstances. But any of those will mean we do not have a memebership of the EU and Brexit will have been done. |
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 18, 2018 17:37:47 GMT
Please clarify , not sure I get your point If at the 'end' of Brexit (whenever you could consider that to be) we do not have a membership of the EU, do you believe the binary choice of leaving the EU would have been enacted? If we are hooked into the single market or customs union , if we are still paying billions into Brussels ,if we still have free movement or ECJ jurisdiction , if we still have to abide by the EU rule book , then I would say no we didn't leave . We would be in some sort of purgatory. This would be the Norway option as has been suggested |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 18, 2018 17:39:26 GMT
I think I've got it now! If we have Brexref2 and Remain win say 52%/48% then a) It's not the will of the people b) It's only advisory like any ref anyway c) Remainers won't know what they are voting for: Closer union, European army etc have all be supported and rubbished in equal measure. If it's Leave then it goes to Rock Paper Scissors to decide as out political system is obviously corrupt. So best to leave all things as is, save the £130m cost of a second vote and hope for an asteroid strike before 29th March '19 to solve it for once and for all. (But then there would be an argument of should it fall on UK/EU/both  ) |
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 18, 2018 17:44:41 GMT
I think I've got it now! If we have Brexref2 and Remain win say 52%/48% then a) It's not the will of the people b) It's only advisory like any ref anyway c) Remainers won't know what they are voting for: Closer union, European army etc have all be supported and rubbished in equal measure. If it's Leave then it goes to Rock Paper Scissors to decide as out political system is obviously corrupt. So best to leave all things as is, save the £130m cost of a second vote and hope for an asteroid strike before 29th March '19 to solve it for once and for all. (But then there would be an argument of should it fall on UK/EU/both ) We’ve got enough problems without the asteroids going on strike |
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 18, 2018 17:46:04 GMT
I think I've got it now! If we have Brexref2 and Remain win say 52%/48% then a) It's not the will of the people b) It's only advisory like any ref anyway c) Remainers won't know what they are voting for: Closer union, European army etc have all be supported and rubbished in equal measure. If it's Leave then it goes to Rock Paper Scissors to decide as out political system is obviously corrupt. So best to leave all things as is, save the £130m cost of a second vote and hope for an asteroid strike before 29th March '19 to solve it for once and for all. (But then there would be an argument of should it fall on UK/EU/both ) Well it depends on how many questions really if it were 1. Leave under WTO rules 2 . Leave under mays chequers plan 3 . Remain in the EU . this would divide the leave voters and we would remain . We would need to have two options leave with no deal or remain |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 18, 2018 17:49:07 GMT
I think I've got it now! If we have Brexref2 and Remain win say 52%/48% then a) It's not the will of the people b) It's only advisory like any ref anyway c) Remainers won't know what they are voting for: Closer union, European army etc have all be supported and rubbished in equal measure. If it's Leave then it goes to Rock Paper Scissors to decide as out political system is obviously corrupt. So best to leave all things as is, save the £130m cost of a second vote and hope for an asteroid strike before 29th March '19 to solve it for once and for all. (But then there would be an argument of should it fall on UK/EU/both  ) We’ve got enough problems without the asteroids going on strike You can get ointment at Boots I believe. |
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Post by yeokel on Dec 18, 2018 17:56:18 GMT
I've corrected that for you. What are these 'opportunities'? Not one who thinks leaving the EU is end of the world, but often this "we'll do wonderfully once we're out" is based on assumptions and other shit To be honest, I’m no ‘world trade expert’ but I do see, for example, a certain amount of friction preventing trade between EU members and the USA. I’ll accept that the Donald is causing friction everywhere but I’m confident our companies can overcome many of these ‘frictions’ on a one to one basis. But, rather than go through a whole list of potential opportunities for both exports & imports, I’ll post a link to a short Spectator article which only takes two or three minutes to read which suggests many more answers than I can do. Spectator Article - Why a no-deal Brexit is nothing to fearI’m not saying it can/will be easy but there is a whole world out there, outside the EU with which to form new trade deals or, perhaps, improve existing ones in agriculture, manufacturing, financial services, pharma, and so on and so on. Don’t overlook the fact that the EU itself is a member of the WTO so once we are a member in our own right we will be continuing to trade with the EU as well. Perhaps, in the short term in a reduced capacity as they ‘punish us’ but Britain (or, at least, the peoples of these isles) has been trading with Europe for thousands of years and will continue to do so for thousands of years too. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 18, 2018 17:59:55 GMT
I would accept the deal with assurance regarding the open ended backstop arrangement. Otherwise I would just leave with no deal It’s not that simple then is it. In fact it’s ridiculously complicated. Leaving always meant different things to different people. But they all agree on one thing leave means leave |
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Post by Northy on Dec 18, 2018 18:05:03 GMT
I've always believed the 'will of the people' to mean a cherished tradition of majority rule, I would appreciate your interpretation. You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. Fooks sake, and people think those who voted leave didnt know what they were voting for. What part of the 'leave mean leave' didnt you understand - an in or out referendum, when the British people speak their voices will be heard, if we vote to leave then we will leave David Cameron Chatham House speech 10th November 2015. "Your decision, nobody elses. Not politicians, not parliaments, not lobby groups." "It will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave, would merely produce another stronger re negotiation and a second referendum in which Britain can stay, I say think again." "The referedum that follows will be a once in a generation choice." "When the British people speak, there voice will be respected, not ignored." "If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another negotiation and another referendum." |
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Post by prettything on Dec 18, 2018 18:09:46 GMT
It’s not that simple then is it. In fact it’s ridiculously complicated. Leaving always meant different things to different people. But they all agree on one thing leave means leave They absolutely did. With your rationale, nobody can have any complaints if went through with the PM’s deal, then. |
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Post by prettything on Dec 18, 2018 18:11:08 GMT
You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. Fooks sake, and people think those who voted leave didnt know what they were voting for. What part of the 'leave mean leave' didnt you understand - an in or out referendum, when the British people speak their voices will be heard, if we vote to leave then we will leave David Cameron Chatham House speech 10th November 2015. "Your decision, nobody elses. Not politicians, not parliaments, not lobby groups." "It will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave, would merely produce another stronger re negotiation and a second referendum in which Britain can stay, I say think again." "The referedum that follows will be a once in a generation choice." "When the British people speak, there voice will be respected, not ignored." "If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another negotiation and another referendum." “Leave means leave” What does this mean? May’s deal ok then? |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 18, 2018 18:15:42 GMT
But they all agree on one thing leave means leave They absolutely did. With your rationale, nobody can have any complaints if went through with the PM’s deal, then. For the last time if may’s deal went through as a believer in democracy I would abide by it I wouldn’t spend over two years moaning about it and trying to do anything to subvert it |
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Post by prettything on Dec 18, 2018 18:23:52 GMT
They absolutely did. With your rationale, nobody can have any complaints if went through with the PM’s deal, then. For the last time if may’s deal went through as a believer in democracy I would abide by it I wouldn’t spend over two years moaning about it and trying to do anything to subvert it Im not moaning about it, either . My original point stemmed from the result which can never be claimed to be “the will of the people” on the basis that Brexit means different things to different people. That and “project fear “ are bullshit labels invented by the tax exile owned right wing tabloids. |
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 18, 2018 18:36:30 GMT
Isn't that what we voted for over 2 years ago? Yes. I believe if we are no longer a part of the EU by the end of the process, then people will have got what they voted for and Brexit will have been enacted. That might be Norway/Canada style, it might be May's WA followed by a yet-to-be-discussed future deal between us and the EU, it might be no deal/WTO, or it might be under other circumstances. But any of those will mean we do not have a memebership of the EU and Brexit will have been done. What people voted for was to leave the EU and this meant no control in our affairs from the EU. This has not been achieved by either a Norway deal or May's WA deal. The Canada deal was an interesting option and the EU appeared receptive to this deal but the UK government gave no consideration at all and makes you wonder whether it was all bluster and the Canada deal had already been dismissed previously by the UK and the EU. The WA is the worst of the three. |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 18, 2018 18:46:33 GMT
Hear hear !! I think this MP has got it spot on and is only saying what a lot of frustrated and furious Leave voters are thinking. Tell the arrogant and condescending EU what we want or they can get stuffed and they can forget our £39 billion ! I think it would certainly focus their attention somewhat. Imagine what we could achieve if the whole country got behind a “bollocks to EU” united approach. The EU would shit itself, instead we have more than enough whiny, doom mongering individuals who lack confidence in themselves and the country thinking the sun is going to stop shining. Will there be tough times?...yes. Can we get through them..yes, if we stick together. The person or thing to unite the country may actually end up being the EU itself if they keep pushing, which will be kind of ironic. And how do we all get behind this approach? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 18, 2018 18:48:51 GMT
You can’t have a “will of the people” with those who took part when many voted for different things. For example, those who voted for Brexit, didn’t know what Brexit we would end up with and voted on their own interpretation of Brexit. That’s not the “ will of the people”. They voted for Brexit, absolutely. If Mays deal went through, would the “will of the people” have been served? For some yes? For many others it wouldn’t have, because that’s not their version of Brexit, and so the “will of the people wouldn’t have been served. Fooks sake, and people think those who voted leave didnt know what they were voting for. What part of the 'leave mean leave' didnt you understand - an in or out referendum, when the British people speak their voices will be heard, if we vote to leave then we will leave David Cameron Chatham House speech 10th November 2015. "Your decision, nobody elses. Not politicians, not parliaments, not lobby groups." "It will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave, would merely produce another stronger re negotiation and a second referendum in which Britain can stay, I say think again." "The referedum that follows will be a once in a generation choice." "When the British people speak, there voice will be respected, not ignored." "If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another negotiation and another referendum." It's really not complicated, is it? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 18, 2018 18:51:15 GMT
It's becoming a little like an echo chamber on here at the moment, but when we voted over 2 years ago there was a very binary option, leave the EU or remain in the EU. I'm bored fucking rigid hearing about the different deals on the table and the multi choice options now available. The will of the people (majority rule) voted to leave. There will become a tipping point I think when a very large proportion of the country will grow even more tired with the pseudo intellectuals and establishment and demand that we just fucking crash out of the EU and flick two fingers as we go. Echo chamber, tell me about it. I don’t think any minds are getting changed on here. The only way to win hearts and minds is a chat and a pint . Debating on forums like this always seems a bit futile. No it isn't! 😁 |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Dec 18, 2018 19:20:49 GMT
£2billion quid spunked on no deal preps today. Troops on standby to help in critical situations. The news riddled with companies spending UK money opening offices / branches /warehouses in the EU for the (still unlikely) event of no deal. All so we can give more power to the thundercunts who form our politicians. In future Brexiteers can perhaps reflect on their vanity project while they lie on trolleys in hospital corridors
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 18, 2018 19:29:02 GMT
For the last time if may’s deal went through as a believer in democracy I would abide by it I wouldn’t spend over two years moaning about it and trying to do anything to subvert it Im not moaning about it, either . My original point stemmed from the result which can never be claimed to be “the will of the people” on the basis that Brexit means different things to different people. That and “project fear “ are bullshit labels invented by the tax exile owned right wing tabloids. It wasn’t tax exiled right wing tabloid owners that voted in large enough numbers to cause a leave vote it was millions of poor and low income working men and women The very people who the Labour Party was formed to help and improve there lives Instead they are busy trying to betray these very people just to please the Islington luvies I see you failed to comment on the fact I would except may’s deal if it’s the only way we can leave |
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 18, 2018 19:32:58 GMT
£2billion quid spunked on no deal preps today. Troops on standby to help in critical situations. The news riddled with companies spending UK money opening offices / branches /warehouses in the EU for the (still unlikely) event of no deal. All so we can give more power to the thundercunts who form our politicians. In future Brexiteers can perhaps reflect on their vanity project while they lie on trolleys in hospital corridors My mother died on a hospital trolley with piss all dignity under arch remainer Blair’s government So if it’s all right by you I shall be just as vain as I whish |
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Post by xchpotter on Dec 18, 2018 20:30:32 GMT
Imagine what we could achieve if the whole country got behind a “bollocks to EU” united approach. The EU would shit itself, instead we have more than enough whiny, doom mongering individuals who lack confidence in themselves and the country thinking the sun is going to stop shining. Will there be tough times?...yes. Can we get through them..yes, if we stick together. The person or thing to unite the country may actually end up being the EU itself if they keep pushing, which will be kind of ironic. And how do we all get behind this approach? It’s a tricky one because many opposed to Brexit are still encountering the grief reactions and are either stuck in the denial or anger phases. Whilst these may be perhaps understandable reactions, you can’t move forward until they’ve been accepted and vented. Two years post referendum and not moving on won’t necessarily help. There needs to be a uniting figure and not necessarily a politician. We are in unprecedented times and I am by no means familiar with constitutional law and all that, but maybe the Queen is the one figure most can get behind. I’m sure she has an opinion and is very worldly wise and she could just be the key to unlocking things. Once we have someone or something we can all rally around, the more chance there is of taking most people on the journey. Of course, the Queen May also think Brexit is bonkers and will leave it to Charles to sort out.😂😂😂😂 |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 18, 2018 20:36:46 GMT
And how do we all get behind this approach? It’s a tricky one because many opposed to Brexit are still encountering the grief reactions and are either stuck in the denial or anger phases. Whilst these may be perhaps understandable reactions, you can’t move forward until they’ve been accepted and vented. Two years post referendum and not moving on won’t necessarily help. There needs to be a uniting figure and not necessarily a politician. We are in unprecedented times and I am by no means familiar with constitutional law and all that, but maybe the Queen is the one figure most can get behind. I’m sure she has an opinion and is very worldly wise and she could just be the key to unlocking things. Once we have someone or something we can all rally around, the more chance there is of taking most people on the journey. Of course, the Queen May also think Brexit is bonkers and will leave it to Charles to sort out.😂😂😂😂 So you're asking people to get behind Brexit by rallying behind the fucking Queen? |
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 18, 2018 20:37:52 GMT
£2billion quid spunked on no deal preps today. Troops on standby to help in critical situations. The news riddled with companies spending UK money opening offices / branches /warehouses in the EU for the (still unlikely) event of no deal. All so we can give more power to the thundercunts who form our politicians. In future Brexiteers can perhaps reflect on their vanity project while they lie on trolleys in hospital corridors It could be worse, we could just spunk £39billion. |
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Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2018 21:06:51 GMT
Why don’t want the eu want a no deal Brexit
A. They don’t get to shaft us with their spiteful offer
B. They are scared we will make it work and other EU countries will follow.
C. Both
No deal will be better than the shit on offer.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 18, 2018 21:17:31 GMT
So you're saying your mum didn't know what she was voting for when she voted to remain in a customs union?
She voted remain because she listened to both sides of the argument at a headline level , believed it was the right thing to stay and loves a mini-break in Bruges.
At a "headline level"  Her vote was for a customs union and she doesn't know what a customs union is. Believing it was the right thing to do = zero fact. She can still take a mini break in Bruges with a Leave vote. |
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