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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 1, 2018 9:54:21 GMT
Here is what doesn't make sense to me.The country has been in a recession for many years. The government has promoted a programme of austerity on the back of that recession. People have lost jobs, and have endured reductions in wages and living conditions. Then they say that they voted for Brexit,even though it will likely make for more job insecurity and a continuation of lower standards of living. (They claim, apparently in all seriousness,that they would willingly endure further hardship,rather than stay in the EU). It is like they are doing the jobs of politicians for them. Politicians have always told people that there will be jam tomorrow,but not today,now people are telling it to themselves... Maybe the people are fed up of jam and realise it’s bad for there diabetes Opening up the possibility of replacing the jam with Coca-Cola, on the principle that at least it's not jam.  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 10:18:40 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 10:19:42 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 1, 2018 10:48:31 GMT
Interested in Labour voters' opinions on this? I notice I didn't get much response before, when I asked if Corbyn got behind Brexit, would they suddenly change tack on it? I believe they would. They are not opposed to Brexit in principle, but opposed to the Tories, who are supposedly bringing it through. The fact that Brexit was supported strongly in working class areas must be problematic for their claim of representing them, surely? Indeed, who is supporting the British working class, nowadays? |
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 1, 2018 11:10:47 GMT
Interested in Labour voters' opinions on this? I notice I didn't get much response before, when I asked if Corbyn got behind Brexit, would they suddenly change tack on it? I believe they would. They are not opposed to Brexit in principle, but opposed to the Tories, who are supposedly bringing it through. The fact that Brexit was supported strongly in working class areas must be problematic for their claim of representing them, surely? Indeed, who is supporting the British working class, nowadays? The EU does more for the working class than our own politicians ever do;) |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 1, 2018 11:33:56 GMT
Interested in Labour voters' opinions on this? I notice I didn't get much response before, when I asked if Corbyn got behind Brexit, would they suddenly change tack on it? I believe they would. They are not opposed to Brexit in principle, but opposed to the Tories, who are supposedly bringing it through. The fact that Brexit was supported strongly in working class areas must be problematic for their claim of representing them, surely? Indeed, who is supporting the British working class, nowadays? The EU does more for the working class than our own politicians ever do;) That's not what I was asking, though, Skem. If that's the case, why don't Labour just back Remain? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 11:36:28 GMT
Verhostadt seems to be saying that in actuality the EU is too bureacratic , not democratic and " we need a European Government"
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 11:38:22 GMT
We need a European Army he confirms
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 1, 2018 11:39:49 GMT
The EU does more for the working class than our own politicians ever do;) That's not what I was asking, though, Skem. If that's the case, why don't Labour just back Remain? Corbyn,i remain convinced if that fuzzy chinned arse-wipe had done any campaigning for remaining in the EU we what not be in the mess we are today  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 11:41:37 GMT
He says Europe is not safe, More freedom of movement needed
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 11:43:59 GMT
The Euro is central to the plan......centralised control is needed( sounds like a country ( dictatorship?)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 11:45:59 GMT
Clear evidence that really we should be FULLY IN...no option outs/ rebate ...or just an associate member
The same message in 2013
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 1, 2018 13:33:52 GMT
So the leaked Brexit 'grid' of how No.10 is going to sell this to the public had today as Digital Day and Jeremy Wright QC, Minister for Digital, culture and sport or summat has been doing the rounds. As Steve Hawkes tweets, he might have let the cat out of the bag. To be fair to Wright he did actually gone to say "... you are going to have to do it again... would be undemocratic" Tomorrow is the 'Brexit Deal' day. Apparently. Deep joy. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 1, 2018 14:12:56 GMT
July 4th 1776. The day the United States crashed out of the EU without a deal.
(h/t @justleaveeu)
30 years ago, the entire Soviet Bloc fell.
Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia.
All of them chose No Deal.
(h/t @holbornlolz)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 1, 2018 14:48:12 GMT
July 4th 1776. The day the United States crashed out of the EU without a deal. (h/t @justleaveeu) 30 years ago, the entire Soviet Bloc fell. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. All of them chose No Deal. (h/t @holbornlolz ) As we have always said Leaving the EU and having a deal are two different things. They have been conflated and the debate has deliberately centred on a deal so that fear and uncertainty can be used to reverse BREXIT. As an aside it is hypocritical why the full legal position on May's deal is not being revealed and yet the argument " you don't know what you are voting for" is also being levelled.... give us more information then. Now that the full intention of the EU to move ever closer to a United States of Europe, with a reduced Sovereignty for the UK has been revealed I wonder if some Remainers either are thinking again ( but don't want to give up on their idealised picture of the EU ( which is not Europe)) or do not really know the consequences of what they are supporting. We are actually giving control of our country away. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 1, 2018 15:01:05 GMT
July 4th 1776. The day the United States crashed out of the EU without a deal. (h/t @justleaveeu) 30 years ago, the entire Soviet Bloc fell. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. All of them chose No Deal. (h/t @holbornlolz ) As we have always said Leaving the EU and having a deal are two different things. They have been conflated and the debate has deliberately centred on a deal so that fear and uncertainty can be used to reverse BREXIT. As an aside it is hypocritical why the full legal position on May's deal is not being revealed and yet the argument " you don't know what you are voting for" is also being levelled.... give us more information then. Now that the full intention of the EU to move ever closer to a United States of Europe, with a reduced Sovereignty for the UK has been revealed I wonder if some Remainers either are thinking again ( but don't want to give up on their idealised picture of the EU ( which is not Europe)) or do not really know the consequences of what they are supporting. We are actually giving control of our country away. I doubt some will be bothered. Like they don't seem bothered about the result of the referendum being overturned by the very politicians who granted it. I suppose being right, and right on, is more important to them, though. Fuck democracy, fuck the working class, fuck the obvious Labour betrayal of them. What kind of country have we become? |
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Post by Gods on Dec 1, 2018 15:01:51 GMT
Whichever side of the argument you are on you have to laugh at this, They should give Chris Mason some kind of award for his honesty  |
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Post by 4372 on Dec 1, 2018 15:03:07 GMT
July 4th 1776. Independence Day in the USA. If i remember correctly, there was then a war between the UK and the American colonies. Is that where you want the UK to go next?
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 1, 2018 15:36:21 GMT
July 4th 1776. The day the United States crashed out of the EU without a deal. (h/t @justleaveeu) 30 years ago, the entire Soviet Bloc fell. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. All of them chose No Deal. (h/t @holbornlolz ) As we have always said Leaving the EU and having a deal are two different things. They have been conflated and the debate has deliberately centred on a deal so that fear and uncertainty can be used to reverse BREXIT. As an aside it is hypocritical why the full legal position on May's deal is not being revealed and yet the argument " you don't know what you are voting for" is also being levelled.... give us more information then. Now that the full intention of the EU to move ever closer to a United States of Europe, with a reduced Sovereignty for the UK has been revealed I wonder if some Remainers either are thinking again ( but don't want to give up on their idealised picture of the EU ( which is not Europe)) or do not really know the consequences of what they are supporting. We are actually giving control of our country away. Correct. All this doom and gloom and threats of no time left to negotiate a different deal to May's is fine. It doesn't mean we'll never have a deal. Leave on time on WTO terms, resurrect David Davis's FTA and demonstrate tech solutions for NI border and leave an offer on the table for the EU. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 8:59:24 GMT
I see that complete and utter shithouse Bliar was on ITV Breakfast (or whatever it's called) advocating hard for a "People's Vote" as "the only fair way of deciding things" !
He says the "country has changed it's view" now and it's only right we give the people the right to decide "once and for all".
That other shithouse Piers Morgan reminded him the people had decided "once and for all" in the first referendum but Bliar just basically said "we'll ignore that vote" (but not in those exact words).
How has this shithouse got the sheer nerve to keep sticking his oar in ?
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Post by M on Dec 3, 2018 16:57:59 GMT
I see that complete and utter shithouse Bliar was on ITV Breakfast (or whatever it's called) advocating hard for a "People's Vote" as "the only fair way of deciding things" ! He says the "country has changed it's view" now and it's only right we give the people the right to decide "once and for all". That other shithouse Piers Morgan reminded him the people had decided "once and for all" in the first referendum but Bliar just basically said "we'll ignore that vote" (but not in those exact words). How has this shithouse got the sheer nerve to keep sticking his oar in ? But what IF the nation HAS changed its mind? I'm not asking for a second referendum but I think we will be going back to the polls either for that or another GE regardless; but IF opinion has changed it would only be right that the opportunity to say that be presented? That is after all surely democratic? If the will hasn't changed there is nothing to lose surely? We can talk, agree and disagree around the reasons why. We could argue about project fear that led to one outcome and another project fear that could have changed that opinion but if the opinion has changed and the will of the nation is now to remain it would be the democratic will to stay. Let's face it, one thing we can all be in agreement of. Nobody voted leave for the chequers agreement model. The most important part is that the questions are done right so that it isn't favoured on remain after seeing talk of 'no deal', 'chequers deal' or finally 'remain' which is only going to split the vote of no deal and favour remain. Not really sure how we get around that and it not diluting the vote of one side or another? Unless it is simply seeing chequers taken off altogether assuming it doesn't get through the house which just means we are back to square one? PS. If Blair is so passionate about remaining and wants to do everything he can to influence it, the best thing he can do is not get involved. His political respect is bordering on non existent. Can we still get him up in the Hague for anything? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 3, 2018 17:33:33 GMT
I see that complete and utter shithouse Bliar was on ITV Breakfast (or whatever it's called) advocating hard for a "People's Vote" as "the only fair way of deciding things" ! He says the "country has changed it's view" now and it's only right we give the people the right to decide "once and for all". That other shithouse Piers Morgan reminded him the people had decided "once and for all" in the first referendum but Bliar just basically said "we'll ignore that vote" (but not in those exact words). How has this shithouse got the sheer nerve to keep sticking his oar in ? But what IF the nation HAS changed its mind? I'm not asking for a second referendum but I think we will be going back to the polls either for that or another GE regardless; but IF opinion has changed it would only be right that the opportunity to say that be presented? That is after all surely democratic? If the will hasn't changed there is nothing to lose surely? We can talk, agree and disagree around the reasons why. We could argue about project fear that led to one outcome and another project fear that could have changed that opinion but if the opinion has changed and the will of the nation is now to remain it would be the democratic will to stay. Let's face it, one thing we can all be in agreement of. Nobody voted leave for the chequers agreement model. The most important part is that the questions are done right so that it isn't favoured on remain after seeing talk of 'no deal', 'chequers deal' or finally 'remain' which is only going to split the vote of no deal and favour remain. Not really sure how we get around that and it not diluting the vote of one side or another? Unless it is simply seeing chequers taken off altogether assuming it doesn't get through the house which just means we are back to square one? PS. If Blair is so passionate about remaining and wants to do everything he can to influence it, the best thing he can do is not get involved. His political respect is bordering on non existent. Can we still get him up in the Hague for anything? Why should the nation be listened to now? |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 3, 2018 17:57:39 GMT
I see that complete and utter shithouse Bliar was on ITV Breakfast (or whatever it's called) advocating hard for a "People's Vote" as "the only fair way of deciding things" ! He says the "country has changed it's view" now and it's only right we give the people the right to decide "once and for all". That other shithouse Piers Morgan reminded him the people had decided "once and for all" in the first referendum but Bliar just basically said "we'll ignore that vote" (but not in those exact words). How has this shithouse got the sheer nerve to keep sticking his oar in ? Think that's one thing both remainers and leavers can agree on. |
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Post by henry on Dec 3, 2018 18:07:03 GMT
But what IF the nation HAS changed its mind? I'm not asking for a second referendum but I think we will be going back to the polls either for that or another GE regardless; but IF opinion has changed it would only be right that the opportunity to say that be presented? That is after all surely democratic? If the will hasn't changed there is nothing to lose surely? We can talk, agree and disagree around the reasons why. We could argue about project fear that led to one outcome and another project fear that could have changed that opinion but if the opinion has changed and the will of the nation is now to remain it would be the democratic will to stay. Let's face it, one thing we can all be in agreement of. Nobody voted leave for the chequers agreement model. The most important part is that the questions are done right so that it isn't favoured on remain after seeing talk of 'no deal', 'chequers deal' or finally 'remain' which is only going to split the vote of no deal and favour remain. Not really sure how we get around that and it not diluting the vote of one side or another? Unless it is simply seeing chequers taken off altogether assuming it doesn't get through the house which just means we are back to square one? PS. If Blair is so passionate about remaining and wants to do everything he can to influence it, the best thing he can do is not get involved. His political respect is bordering on non existent. Can we still get him up in the Hague for anything? Why should the nation be listened to now? Because its the easy way out for all the shithouse cowardly fuckers that run this country / want to run this country. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 3, 2018 18:12:24 GMT
Why should the nation be listened to now? Because its the easy way out for all the shithouse cowardly fuckers that run this country / want to run this country. Oh, for sure. They have fucked around for two and a half years, coming up with obstacle after obstacle. They haven't got the bollocks to stop Brexit themselves, so they are trying to bully and cajole the public into a second referendum. I have no doubt that they will succeed. |
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Post by henry on Dec 3, 2018 18:18:58 GMT
Because its the easy way out for all the shithouse cowardly fuckers that run this country / want to run this country. Oh, for sure. They have fucked around for two and a half years, coming up with obstacle after obstacle. They haven't got the bollocks to stop Brexit themselves, so they are trying to bully and cajole the public into a second referendum. I have no doubt that they will succeed. Yep, it's looking that way Tricky. Should that be the case, i can honestly say will never cast another vote at the polling stations ever again. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 3, 2018 18:24:22 GMT
Oh, for sure. They have fucked around for two and a half years, coming up with obstacle after obstacle. They haven't got the bollocks to stop Brexit themselves, so they are trying to bully and cajole the public into a second referendum. I have no doubt that they will succeed. Yep, it's looking that way Tricky. Should that be the case, i can honestly say will never cast another vote at the polling stations ever again. Neither will I. I have taken an interest in politics for about 35 years, but I might join the apathetic if they overturn Brexit. They will have been proved right, after all. The People's Vote supporters are being duped. The politicians are using democracy as an excuse for this vote, but it's about the exact opposite. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 18:31:19 GMT
Same here - me and Mrs Dees have both said we'll never vote again if there is a second referendum.
Democracy - It's an absolute farce.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 3, 2018 18:52:38 GMT
Same here - me and Mrs Dees have both said we'll never vote again if there is a second referendum. Democracy - It's an absolute farce. If there is Dee, and I'm still hopeful that we'll get to Brexit under WTO deal or true Brexit ( obviously after the vote next week I guess that there will be pressure and a vote to extend A50 to avoid a """""CLIFF EDGE"""""/ panic, Fear....The MPs will claim to be acting " responsibly" and in the interest of " jobs" " business")....I think that the next debate will be " what is the question?"...but I do believe that there will be tremendous pressure to stress that the UK is acting antidemocratically in blatantly trying to oppose the Referendum result...,If the argument is made on whether we want to be independent and sovereign or want to be absorbed into the United States of Europe....then there might be a greater victory for Leave.....so I think that we should vote.... depends upon the question. We should not have to do it...but we ought to be more fervent than ever, Leave is relying upon the working class being despondent and losing interest |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 3, 2018 18:59:17 GMT
How would Leavers on the EE vote, if the question is;
Do you want to remain part of an organisation whose mission is to move in an ever closer union towards a United States of Europe that states in their Parliament to want more Sovereignty transferred from the UK to itself
Or
Would you want to be an independent sovereign nation that can make our own decisions in our best interest without jurisdiction of organisations outside of our nation.
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