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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 16:44:40 GMT
We've had a referendum, no more are needed. This isn't the Ashes best of five. If the referendum result isn't respected, don't be surprised to see considerable civil unrest. So your promoting violence if you don't get your way typical far right politics!! sure the police would be interested in you encouraging civil unrest!! Mr Stupid: 1. Last time I checked, respecting the outcome of a democratic vote had fuck all to do with 'far right politics'. Quite the opposite, surely? 2. I am not and have never been 'far right'. 3. Good luck finding any part of my post where I had directly encouraged violence. I was simply making a prediction of what potentially could happen. 4. It's 'you're' not 'your' in this instance. 5. Technically, I was addressing Oggy because I was holding out for a more literate and considered reply than anything you can muster. PS are you still blaming the Tories for not having a passport mate? 😂 |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 16:47:24 GMT
What the hell has that to do with the flagrant disregard the European Union is showing towards a elected government of a whole country To be democratic is to except a majority decision regardless of your own opinion Therefore if the Eu is as democratic as some on here allude to they would except the budget of a democratically elected Italian government Well if the majority of Stoke votes Labour, why they should be governed by the Conservative party? Shouldn't the Conservative government put their own opinion to one side and respect the decision of the majority of voters from Stoke? We are not talking about a town even if it does have a Tory mp We are talking about a whole country you do understand the difference of town , city , county, and a whole nation Or do you believe the nation state has no right to exist |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 16:50:22 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk Surely you are advocating the abolition of our Parliament ( both houses)...and just having one system...the EU Parliament, clearer, cheaper and more democratic? Why do we need two? Is that correct? |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 16:54:12 GMT
No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk Surely you are advocating the abolition of our Parliament ( both houses)...and just having one system...the EU Parliament, clearer, cheaper and more democratic? Why do we need two? Is that correct? Me I’d abolish the whole shower of shit and let queenie have a go |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 23, 2018 16:57:30 GMT
What the hell has that to do with the flagrant disregard the European Union is showing towards a elected government of a whole country To be democratic is to except a majority decision regardless of your own opinion Therefore if the Eu is as democratic as some on here allude to they would except the budget of a democratically elected Italian government Well if the majority of Stoke votes Labour, why they should be governed by the Conservative party? Shouldn't the Conservative government put their own opinion to one side and respect the decision of the majority of voters from Stoke?You mean like the 30.6% Remain, 69.4% leave vote of Stoke on Trent? Honest piece of advice mate, dunner lead with your chin!! |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 17:00:00 GMT
Well if the majority of Stoke votes Labour, why they should be governed by the Conservative party? Shouldn't the Conservative government put their own opinion to one side and respect the decision of the majority of voters from Stoke? We are not talking about a town even if it does have a Tory mp We are talking about a whole country you do understand the difference of town , city , county, and a whole nation Or do you believe the nation state has no right to exist Hungary and Italy are part of the EU, as well as being nation states. Neither Hungary or Italy have a majority within the EU Parliament, Commission or the Council (it's impossible for any nation to have a majority in any institution). So neither country has a majority in the EU - that's why they don't always get their own way. The same way the constituency of Stoke (I was talking about Stoke Central, but replace it with any consistency that has ever voted for one party and been governed by the other) doesn't have a majority in the Commons, so sometimes they have to get politics they didn't vote for thrust upon them. As for Italy's budget, the EU are trying to stop them becoming the next Greece - a situation which would be far worse than when Greece hit the wall due to the size of the economy. I've no doubt there is self-interest involved (on all sides, it is politics after all) but take a look at the details of the Italian economy and ask yourself if now is the right time to be throwing unicorns to the masses like the current government want to do. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 17:01:54 GMT
Well if the majority of Stoke votes Labour, why they should be governed by the Conservative party? Shouldn't the Conservative government put their own opinion to one side and respect the decision of the majority of voters from Stoke?You mean like the 30.6% Remain, 69.4% leave vote of Stoke on Trent? Honest piece of advice mate, dunner lead with your chin!! Yes, I mean that exactly. Thankfully, for those that voted to leave in Stoke, enough people around the country agreed with them so we're now well on our way to leaving the EU. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 17:04:30 GMT
So if a organisation founded and that practices this alleged thing called democracy How come they totally ignore the will of member countries democratically elected governments for example Italy or Hungary So in the Eu democracy is only democratic if the Germans and French agree with it For the same reason some constituencies vote Labour but get a Conservative government - because a democracy rarely/never pleases everyone within it. Exactly- so the best way of trying to reach some kind of conclusion is to put it to a public vote. |
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Post by neworleanstokie on Nov 23, 2018 17:07:20 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years.
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 17:29:11 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. So you're upset because you feel that your 'European citizenship and identity' has been 'taken away' yet you use derogatory terms to describe British people who want to protect their identity? You don't even live here, it's nothing to do with you anyway. I couldn't care less if people voting Leave hurt your feelings. |
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Post by 4372 on Nov 23, 2018 17:34:45 GMT
Excellent letter in the Daily Telegraph today:
SIR – Sir Bill Cash (Letters, November 21) says that Brexit is about “control over our laws and our democracy”, for which “people have fought and died”.
As a political sketch writer who spends much time sitting in the House of Commons, I have heard Sir Bill make this claim many, many times. Each time it marks again the lowest point the Brexit debate has reached. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in combat in the defence of the United Kingdom, but no soldier has yet fought and died, either for Leave or Remain.
Britain is hopelessly divided over Brexit. Sir Bill has no right whatsoever to claim this country’s war dead for his cause. It demeans their memory and is profoundly offensive.
The Independent London W8
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 23, 2018 17:37:31 GMT
The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. Fear of foreigners 😂 Good to see the usual cliched bollocks being trotted out. Cliched doesn’t make it untrue |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 17:41:27 GMT
Oggy , I realise that Void has already commented on this but what exactly do you mean by " fear of foreginers".....seems like a complete blanket slur and misconstrual. Would you include the Attorney General, Frank Field, George Galloway etc. Complete nonsense. Many of the laws/ regs etc that you refer to have been incorporated into UK law in the Repeal Bill so there should be no problem there.....so that we can use ( your interpretation ) Henry VIII to change them. If you don't think it is about sovereignty I don't think that you understand what is happening.As Benn said that battle is never won and has to be fought by every generation. The EU itself has now been talking openly about needing the nation states to surrender more sovereignty to the EU. The extraction from the grips of the EU should have been negotiated from day one following the Referendum, in parallel, alongside but if necessary separate to any " deal" You mention Open skies. I don't know alot about it but remember something like ( which I have had to Google)...one option would be for the UK to apply to join the European Common Aviation Area as several non-EU and even non-European countries have done including Morocco and Jordan. As the UK, has already accepted all the EU liberalisation rules it should be able to gain full access to the ECAA. ....of course the EU want to punish the UK though. Simply. We've had the Referendum. we voted out. Those that voted Remain can't accept it. So we've had a concerted effort to undermine abd reverse it .( See your last post). Those responsible for implementing it are complicit in the deceit and betrayal. It is not compulsory to belong to the EU and it is possible to Leave. Infact that is what we voted for. And to repeat , it is now about Democracy and Sovereignty. May is doing precisely what you voted for. We are less democratic than the EU and will be less sovereign when we leave if we wish to continue trading with the EU and having any semblance of power and influence in the world. Me and you repeat ourselves to death though. And George Galloway’s anti-semitism is certain a fear of what is foreign or different to him. Immigration has been shown to be nothing but good for our nation in study after study after study. People who voted to leave because of immigration forgot that we let more people here from outside the EU than from inside almost every single year (so leaving may increase immigrants). If I am being kind, those who voted leave due to immigration did so because of fear of foreigners, if I am being unkind it is plain racism. There’s no logical explanation otherwise when you consider the fewer immigrants an area has, the more people voted to leave and vice versa. Galloway is also passionate about the plight of the Palestinians and Romanians. It's all too easy to accuse others of racist tendencies or fear of foreigners, but to label all 17.4 m voters does err on stereotyping, similarly with older people and a favourite of yours , the less educated. As regards May doing what I voted for, have you been listening to the latest debates,? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 23, 2018 17:42:40 GMT
The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. Could you explain this comment in more depth please? I have a hundred times before. About 800/1450 law makers in the UK are unelected. In the EU, only about 28/780 are unelected. When we leave, as half our exports go to the EU, if we want that to continue then those exporters will have to continue meeting EU regulations on their products and services in order to continue selling there, yet we will have no say over those rules. Also we will have less influence worldwide and so less say in the terms of the hundreds of other international treaties we are members of. We will therefore have less say over the rules that govern us than we do now |
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Post by neworleanstokie on Nov 23, 2018 17:56:47 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. So you're upset because you feel that your 'European citizenship and identity' has been 'taken away' yet you use derogatory terms to describe British people who want to protect their identity? You don't even live here, it's nothing to do with you anyway. I couldn't care less if people voting Leave hurt your feelings. How ironic that your vitriolic and frankly, nasty response simply reconfirmed what I stated. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 17:58:07 GMT
We are not talking about a town even if it does have a Tory mp We are talking about a whole country you do understand the difference of town , city , county, and a whole nation Or do you believe the nation state has no right to exist Hungary and Italy are part of the EU, as well as being nation states. Neither Hungary or Italy have a majority within the EU Parliament, Commission or the Council (it's impossible for any nation to have a majority in any institution). So neither country has a majority in the EU - that's why they don't always get their own way. The same way the constituency of Stoke (I was talking about Stoke Central, but replace it with any consistency that has ever voted for one party and been governed by the other) doesn't have a majority in the Commons, so sometimes they have to get politics they didn't vote for thrust upon them. As for Italy's budget, the EU are trying to stop them becoming the next Greece - a situation which would be far worse than when Greece hit the wall due to the size of the economy. I've no doubt there is self-interest involved (on all sides, it is politics after all) but take a look at the details of the Italian economy and ask yourself if now is the right time to be throwing unicorns to the masses like the current government want to do. So you would have been alright with the EU stepping in if Corbyn got elected, then? 😜 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 18:04:29 GMT
Perhaps Denis ought to be leading the negotiations " I'd pay them nowt, they'd get nowt from me"
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 18:21:11 GMT
Fear of foreigners 😂 Good to see the usual cliched bollocks being trotted out. Cliched doesn’t make it untrue No, it being a sweeping generalisation that doesn't consider the various nuances of the counter-argument does. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 18:23:20 GMT
Hungary and Italy are part of the EU, as well as being nation states. Neither Hungary or Italy have a majority within the EU Parliament, Commission or the Council (it's impossible for any nation to have a majority in any institution). So neither country has a majority in the EU - that's why they don't always get their own way. The same way the constituency of Stoke (I was talking about Stoke Central, but replace it with any consistency that has ever voted for one party and been governed by the other) doesn't have a majority in the Commons, so sometimes they have to get politics they didn't vote for thrust upon them. As for Italy's budget, the EU are trying to stop them becoming the next Greece - a situation which would be far worse than when Greece hit the wall due to the size of the economy. I've no doubt there is self-interest involved (on all sides, it is politics after all) but take a look at the details of the Italian economy and ask yourself if now is the right time to be throwing unicorns to the masses like the current government want to do. So you would have been alright with the EU stepping in if Corbyn got elected, then? 😜 If he went fucking nuts on spending when our economy was already proper fucked, then no. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 18:23:45 GMT
So you're upset because you feel that your 'European citizenship and identity' has been 'taken away' yet you use derogatory terms to describe British people who want to protect their identity? You don't even live here, it's nothing to do with you anyway. I couldn't care less if people voting Leave hurt your feelings. How ironic that your vitriolic and frankly, nasty response simply reconfirmed what I stated. .  |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 18:27:46 GMT
So you would have been alright with the EU stepping in if Corbyn got elected, then? 😜 If he went fucking nuts on spending when our economy was already proper fucked, then no. Did you mean yes? |
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sharpy
Academy Starlet
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Post by sharpy on Nov 23, 2018 18:36:39 GMT
"as half our exports go to the EU"
Currently stands at 44% and shrinking, it was 55% in 2006.
So with that in mind why would we wish to continue selling to the EU and not strike new FTA with the rest of the globe. New deals that would not alienate emerging markets through tariffs imposed by the protectionism of the CU ?
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 18:42:36 GMT
If he went fucking nuts on spending when our economy was already proper fucked, then no. Did you mean yes? Ha, yes. I meant yes. Fucking hell, I was convinced that the question said "So you'd have no problem with.....". |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 18:47:00 GMT
Ha, yes. I meant yes. Fucking hell, I was convinced that the question said "So you'd have no problem with.....". Ha ha, I had to double check, myself! Who decrees when spending is too much, though? Many people are saying Labour is promising unicorns and is risking economic catastrophe, but I don't think many on here would want the EU to interfere with the outcome of our election. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 19:13:19 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 19:32:41 GMT
Perhaps Denis ought to be leading the negotiations " I'd pay them nowt, they'd get nowt from me" Bloody brilliant! 😁 What do you think about that, Huddy? |
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Post by neworleanstokie on Nov 23, 2018 20:37:39 GMT
How ironic that your vitriolic and frankly, nasty response simply reconfirmed what I stated. . thanks for the selfie |
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 23, 2018 21:00:20 GMT
And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. Why should we not want to keep trading? If there is no agreement we simply trade under WTO rules. That could result in much cheaper food from the rest of the world, which the EU taxes heavily. Why would the EU not want to trade with us? They have a massive trade surplus with us. If we start taxing each other they could lose out massively, particularly Germany. I agree our constitution, voting system, etc. is a poor model for democracy but to suggest Germany, France, Italy are more democratic is nonsense with all the wheeling and dealing between parties to form a government. They make the Tory Ulster unionist deal look small fry. We get the government the largest minority voted for, those countries get an alliance government nobody voted for. |
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Post by numpty40 on Nov 23, 2018 21:03:16 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. I'm a little puzzled as to why you believe a resident in the USA believes he should have a vote on the future for the residents of the UK. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 21:28:09 GMT
. thanks for the selfie Top bantz mate. Keep 'em coming. |
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