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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 10:44:38 GMT
Not really. The time factor is now an issue because of the delibrate ploy of not really wanting to leave. Having said that it could be argued that we leave cleanly BUT in a transition period ( using the current ploy) all the things you mention remain the same WHERE NECESSARY until they are negotiated separately. The bottom line is that we trade with about 24 countries under WTO and don't have to accept Political and Economic union.eg USA and Australia The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. Oggy , I realise that Void has already commented on this but what exactly do you mean by " fear of foreginers".....seems like a complete blanket slur and misconstrual. Would you include the Attorney General, Frank Field, George Galloway etc. Complete nonsense. Many of the laws/ regs etc that you refer to have been incorporated into UK law in the Repeal Bill so there should be no problem there.....so that we can use ( your interpretation ) Henry VIII to change them. If you don't think it is about sovereignty I don't think that you understand what is happening.As Benn said that battle is never won and has to be fought by every generation. The EU itself has now been talking openly about needing the nation states to surrender more sovereignty to the EU. The extraction from the grips of the EU should have been negotiated from day one following the Referendum, in parallel, alongside but if necessary separate to any " deal" You mention Open skies. I don't know alot about it but remember something like ( which I have had to Google)...one option would be for the UK to apply to join the European Common Aviation Area as several non-EU and even non-European countries have done including Morocco and Jordan. As the UK, has already accepted all the EU liberalisation rules it should be able to gain full access to the ECAA. ....of course the EU want to punish the UK though. Simply. We've had the Referendum. we voted out. Those that voted Remain can't accept it. So we've had a concerted effort to undermine abd reverse it .( See your last post). Those responsible for implementing it are complicit in the deceit and betrayal. It is not compulsory to belong to the EU and it is possible to Leave. Infact that is what we voted for. And to repeat , it is now about Democracy and Sovereignty. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 10:52:47 GMT
From the link below. Clearly giving a view from the Leavr perspective, but I think it gives the current position with some clarity. ,.................... The idea that it is not possible to leave the EU seems to be the most dangerous affront to democracy. They are saying not only that it was wrong for the public to vote to leave, but also that it cannot be done and therefore the democratic vote was meaningless. Without being too alarmist, if this view prevails, it would be the end of democratic sovereignty in this country and throughout the EU. If it is simply impossible for Britain to assert its legal right to leave the EU, then no other member country can do so either. And that would be screwing down the lid on democracy. www.spiked-online.com/2018/11/23/if-brexit-is-finished-then-so-is-democracy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 11:07:39 GMT
From the link below. Clearly giving a view from the Leavr perspective, but I think it gives the current position with some clarity. ,.................... The idea that it is not possible to leave the EU seems to be the most dangerous affront to democracy. They are saying not only that it was wrong for the public to vote to leave, but also that it cannot be done and therefore the democratic vote was meaningless. Without being too alarmist, if this view prevails, it would be the end of democratic sovereignty in this country and throughout the EU. If it is simply impossible for Britain to assert its legal right to leave the EU, then no other member country can do so either. And that would be screwing down the lid on democracy. www.spiked-online.com/2018/11/23/if-brexit-is-finished-then-so-is-democracy/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueIt is possible to leave the EU, if you have a competent government with a majority and your domestic shit (constitution, borders etc) is in order. Just because Britain is in the middle of ballsing it up, it doesn't mean it's impossible. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 11:10:37 GMT
Not really. The time factor is now an issue because of the delibrate ploy of not really wanting to leave. Having said that it could be argued that we leave cleanly BUT in a transition period ( using the current ploy) all the things you mention remain the same WHERE NECESSARY until they are negotiated separately. The bottom line is that we trade with about 24 countries under WTO and don't have to accept Political and Economic union.eg USA and Australia The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 11:38:16 GMT
From Martin Howe QC..... Within the draft Withdrawal Agreement (“WA”), 175 pages consists of a Protocol whose formal title is “Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland”, together with 10 detailed Annexes which form part of it. Informally it is called the Northern Irish “backstop” protocol. Neither its formal nor its informal title really describes it. It should be called “the whole UK permanent lock-in protocol with extra lock-in for Northern Ireland.” this is the most important point – the UK has no right under the treaty either to prevent the Protocol coming into effect or, once it is in force, to leave it, unless the EU agrees. In this regard, the Protocol is unique amongst trade agreements, which invariably contain clauses allowing each party the right to withdraw on notice. Https://brexitcentral.com/withdrawal-agreements-northern-ireland-protocol-neither-backstop-temporary/ |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 12:34:25 GMT
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 23, 2018 12:40:52 GMT
Ha ha. Sturgeon flounders in attempt to throw fishing deal overboard. I can write better myself  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 12:47:45 GMT
Portillo clarifies the terminology
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 23, 2018 13:17:20 GMT
The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 23, 2018 13:23:29 GMT
The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. Oggy , I realise that Void has already commented on this but what exactly do you mean by " fear of foreginers".....seems like a complete blanket slur and misconstrual. Would you include the Attorney General, Frank Field, George Galloway etc. Complete nonsense. Many of the laws/ regs etc that you refer to have been incorporated into UK law in the Repeal Bill so there should be no problem there.....so that we can use ( your interpretation ) Henry VIII to change them. If you don't think it is about sovereignty I don't think that you understand what is happening.As Benn said that battle is never won and has to be fought by every generation. The EU itself has now been talking openly about needing the nation states to surrender more sovereignty to the EU. The extraction from the grips of the EU should have been negotiated from day one following the Referendum, in parallel, alongside but if necessary separate to any " deal" You mention Open skies. I don't know alot about it but remember something like ( which I have had to Google)...one option would be for the UK to apply to join the European Common Aviation Area as several non-EU and even non-European countries have done including Morocco and Jordan. As the UK, has already accepted all the EU liberalisation rules it should be able to gain full access to the ECAA. ....of course the EU want to punish the UK though. Simply. We've had the Referendum. we voted out. Those that voted Remain can't accept it. So we've had a concerted effort to undermine abd reverse it .( See your last post). Those responsible for implementing it are complicit in the deceit and betrayal. It is not compulsory to belong to the EU and it is possible to Leave. Infact that is what we voted for. And to repeat , it is now about Democracy and Sovereignty. May is doing precisely what you voted for. We are less democratic than the EU and will be less sovereign when we leave if we wish to continue trading with the EU and having any semblance of power and influence in the world. Me and you repeat ourselves to death though. And George Galloway’s anti-semitism is certain a fear of what is foreign or different to him. Immigration has been shown to be nothing but good for our nation in study after study after study. People who voted to leave because of immigration forgot that we let more people here from outside the EU than from inside almost every single year (so leaving may increase immigrants). If I am being kind, those who voted leave due to immigration did so because of fear of foreigners, if I am being unkind it is plain racism. There’s no logical explanation otherwise when you consider the fewer immigrants an area has, the more people voted to leave and vice versa. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 13:40:03 GMT
Do you really believe all the fake reports being led by the BBC, Sky News, The Guardian, The Evening Standard and others that the leave vote has changed it’s mind. There may well be a few people down south who fall for these tactics but up north we are made of sterner stuff and have the resolution and courage to see this journey through to achieve the result the nation voted for. So why are you leavers so scared of a referendum if the vote is a forgone conclusion!! you should be saying bring it on!!!! We've had a referendum, no more are needed. This isn't the Ashes best of five. If the referendum result isn't respected, don't be surprised to see considerable civil unrest. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 13:41:10 GMT
The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. Oggy , I realise that Void has already commented on this but what exactly do you mean by " fear of foreginers".....seems like a complete blanket slur and misconstrual. Would you include the Attorney General, Frank Field, George Galloway etc. Complete nonsense. Many of the laws/ regs etc that you refer to have been incorporated into UK law in the Repeal Bill so there should be no problem there.....so that we can use ( your interpretation ) Henry VIII to change them. If you don't think it is about sovereignty I don't think that you understand what is happening.As Benn said that battle is never won and has to be fought by every generation. The EU itself has now been talking openly about needing the nation states to surrender more sovereignty to the EU. The extraction from the grips of the EU should have been negotiated from day one following the Referendum, in parallel, alongside but if necessary separate to any " deal" You mention Open skies. I don't know alot about it but remember something like ( which I have had to Google)...one option would be for the UK to apply to join the European Common Aviation Area as several non-EU and even non-European countries have done including Morocco and Jordan. As the UK, has already accepted all the EU liberalisation rules it should be able to gain full access to the ECAA. ....of course the EU want to punish the UK though. Simply. We've had the Referendum. we voted out. Those that voted Remain can't accept it. So we've had a concerted effort to undermine abd reverse it .( See your last post). Those responsible for implementing it are complicit in the deceit and betrayal. It is not compulsory to belong to the EU and it is possible to Leave. Infact that is what we voted for. And to repeat , it is now about Democracy and Sovereignty. Remainers- the enemies of democracy. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 13:42:46 GMT
And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. Could you explain this comment in more depth please? |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 13:51:26 GMT
Oggy , I realise that Void has already commented on this but what exactly do you mean by " fear of foreginers".....seems like a complete blanket slur and misconstrual. Would you include the Attorney General, Frank Field, George Galloway etc. Complete nonsense. Many of the laws/ regs etc that you refer to have been incorporated into UK law in the Repeal Bill so there should be no problem there.....so that we can use ( your interpretation ) Henry VIII to change them. If you don't think it is about sovereignty I don't think that you understand what is happening.As Benn said that battle is never won and has to be fought by every generation. The EU itself has now been talking openly about needing the nation states to surrender more sovereignty to the EU. The extraction from the grips of the EU should have been negotiated from day one following the Referendum, in parallel, alongside but if necessary separate to any " deal" You mention Open skies. I don't know alot about it but remember something like ( which I have had to Google)...one option would be for the UK to apply to join the European Common Aviation Area as several non-EU and even non-European countries have done including Morocco and Jordan. As the UK, has already accepted all the EU liberalisation rules it should be able to gain full access to the ECAA. ....of course the EU want to punish the UK though. Simply. We've had the Referendum. we voted out. Those that voted Remain can't accept it. So we've had a concerted effort to undermine abd reverse it .( See your last post). Those responsible for implementing it are complicit in the deceit and betrayal. It is not compulsory to belong to the EU and it is possible to Leave. Infact that is what we voted for. And to repeat , it is now about Democracy and Sovereignty. May is doing precisely what you voted for. We are less democratic than the EU and will be less sovereign when we leave if we wish to continue trading with the EU and having any semblance of power and influence in the world. Me and you repeat ourselves to death though. And George Galloway’s anti-semitism is certain a fear of what is foreign or different to him. Immigration has been shown to be nothing but good for our nation in study after study after study. People who voted to leave because of immigration forgot that we let more people here from outside the EU than from inside almost every single year (so leaving may increase immigrants). If I am being kind, those who voted leave due to immigration did so because of fear of foreigners, if I am being unkind it is plain racism. There’s no logical explanation otherwise when you consider the fewer immigrants an area has, the more people voted to leave and vice versa. Farage has made no secret of saying Brexit will allow more immigration from the Commonwealth rather than restricting immigration to EU dictats and quotas. Of course immigration has played a positive role in this country- I don't know personally of anyone who voted to Leave who would disagree with this. But a significant number of medical/high-earning professionals have migrated from Commonwealth nations whereas EU migration tends to include a large concentration of low-skilled workers or, it has to be said, people not offering anything. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 14:19:30 GMT
And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. I don't think so Oggy no matter how much you say so. But the issue now is giving up our sovereignty to the EU. Have a listen to what Guy Verhostadt is saying in the EU parliament. They want control |
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Post by yeokel on Nov 23, 2018 14:20:46 GMT
And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. May is doing precisely what you voted for. We are less democratic than the EU and will be less sovereign when we leave if we wish to continue trading with the EU and having any semblance of power and influence in the world. You and May do have something in common which is a belief that if you repeat the same bullshit time after time after time, it will eventually become the truth. Sadly for you, it won't. |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 23, 2018 14:32:56 GMT
So why are you leavers so scared of a referendum if the vote is a forgone conclusion!! you should be saying bring it on!!!! We've had a referendum, no more are needed. This isn't the Ashes best of five. If the referendum result isn't respected, don't be surprised to see considerable civil unrest. So your promoting violence if you don't get your way typical far right politics!! sure the police would be interested in you encouraging civil unrest!! |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 23, 2018 14:52:23 GMT
The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 15:18:47 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk So if a organisation founded and that practices this alleged thing called democracy How come they totally ignore the will of member countries democratically elected governments for example Italy or Hungary So in the Eu democracy is only democratic if the Germans and French agree with it |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 15:19:33 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk I couldn't care less how the EU parliament is made up, they could write the EU constitution with unicorn tears for all I'm concerned. The UK electoral process might not be perfect but that can be looked at and changed. The bottom line is I'd rather be governed by an imperfect, sovereign UK government than a foreign government who threaten to punish us for daring to leave. Some democracy that is. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 15:26:38 GMT
No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk I couldn't care less how the EU parliament is made up, they could write the EU constitution with unicorn tears for all I'm concerned. The UK electoral process might not be perfect but that can be looked at and changed. The bottom line is I'd rather be governed by an imperfect, sovereign UK government than a foreign government who threaten to punish us for daring to leave. Some democracy that is. Why are they intent to punish us for leaving could it be to discourage others from leaving Surely not according to the remainers on here the Eu is so wonderful Why would anyone else want to leave Therefore the punishment is totally because there a bunch of vindictive bastards Or are they scared shitless there vanity project is about to lmplode |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 15:42:52 GMT
We've had a referendum, no more are needed. This isn't the Ashes best of five. If the referendum result isn't respected, don't be surprised to see considerable civil unrest. So your promoting violence if you don't get your way typical far right politics!! sure the police would be interested in you encouraging civil unrest!! Yes, because that's exactly what he said, isn't it?  |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 16:08:47 GMT
No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk So if a organisation founded and that practices this alleged thing called democracy How come they totally ignore the will of member countries democratically elected governments for example Italy or Hungary So in the Eu democracy is only democratic if the Germans and French agree with it For the same reason some constituencies vote Labour but get a Conservative government - because a democracy rarely/never pleases everyone within it. |
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Post by yeokel on Nov 23, 2018 16:09:31 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk If I may be permitted a point of order, we have ONE parliament made up of two houses; the House of Commons & the House of Lords. The rest of your badly spelled ungrammatical drivel I will leave for others to decipher. |
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Post by yeokel on Nov 23, 2018 16:21:28 GMT
And one very important addition...the fight for democracy and Sovereignty is even more important in a GLOBALISED which allows for more means of control, more monitoring and too down control, more power and wealth concentrated in a few remote faceless people and groups. Unaccountable and unchallengeable power. We are in dangerous times , Brexit has become about Democracy and Sovereignty and not merely one country's people expressing a wish to leave an unaccountable bureacratic Empire building self serving and self righteous organisation The EU is far more democratic than our political system. We will be less sovereign when we leave if we want to continue trading with the EU. Oggy, with respect to democracy – Could you tell me how much of our legislation in the UK has been proposed and voted on by our democratically elected representatives in the House of Commons? (I think it is roughly One hundred percent (100%) isn’t it?) And, similarly, how much EU legislation has been proposed and voted on by our democratically elected representatives in the European Parliament? (I think it is roughly (EXACTLY) Zero percent (0%) isn’t it?)
Now, what was that you were saying about democracy? |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 16:26:01 GMT
So if a organisation founded and that practices this alleged thing called democracy How come they totally ignore the will of member countries democratically elected governments for example Italy or Hungary So in the Eu democracy is only democratic if the Germans and French agree with it For the same reason some constituencies vote Labour but get a Conservative government - because a democracy rarely/never pleases everyone within it. What the hell has that to do with the flagrant disregard the European Union is showing towards a elected government of a whole country To be democratic is to except a majority decision regardless of your own opinion Therefore if the Eu is as democratic as some on here allude to they would except the budget of a democratically elected Italian government |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 23, 2018 16:35:44 GMT
For the same reason some constituencies vote Labour but get a Conservative government - because a democracy rarely/never pleases everyone within it. What the hell has that to do with the flagrant disregard the European Union is showing towards a elected government of a whole country To be democratic is to except a majority decision regardless of your own opinion Therefore if the Eu is as democratic as some on here allude to they would except the budget of a democratically elected Italian government Well if the majority of Stoke votes Labour, why they should be governed by the Conservative party? Shouldn't the Conservative government put their own opinion to one side and respect the decision of the majority of voters from Stoke? |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 23, 2018 16:36:01 GMT
For the same reason some constituencies vote Labour but get a Conservative government - because a democracy rarely/never pleases everyone within it. What the hell has that to do with the flagrant disregard the European Union is showing towards a elected government of a whole country To be democratic is to except a majority decision regardless of your own opinion Therefore if the Eu is as democratic as some on here allude to they would except the budget of a democratically elected Italian government I'd go a stage further. If the EU respected the sovereignty of independent states it would have no business being involved in their financial management, full stop. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 23, 2018 16:42:08 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk All you say is disputed of course. The EU Parliament is a pseudo parliament. It is not the equivalent of ours, or our understanding of one. The power lies in corridors in Merkel and Macron , then in the Eurogroup, whose meetings are unminuted and of course we are not a part( a good reason to leave actually, because one day it will be clear that we will need to join or there will be nowhere to go).The Commission drive the policy implementation ( obviously having listened to the leadership ( Merkel, Macron , Eurogroup) ) but of course they know the direction of travel.,... Ever Closer Union....that can't be questioned, that's the mission of the Commission. Try talking to your MEP ( and if you have please let us know) and ask them if they can influence one little policy and let me know what they say.....try the " EU army".…... where did that come from.....a manifesto? When Merkel made the decision to invite uncontrolled immigration, where did that come from? Anyway how do you feel about this great democratic body having supremacy over our Parliament? That is the current issue. Or the European Court having supremacy over our Supreme Court? I know that you won't take any notice but Benn of course explains the issue very well. It's not a left/ right issue.It's about Democracy.And you are in favour of giving our Democracy and the sovereignty of our country away ,to be ruled by unelected remote others who decide policies not made in our interest, that cannot be challenged. The people of the UK will never relate to Brussels because the EU's power has been imposed from the top down and through secrecy and Stealth. Geography and the history of the nation States of Europe also are an insurmountable barrier. I don't like to bring personalities into the equation but I do think having children focuses the mind on the future. I'm sure that many of the older ones would agree with me that I am passionate about the future of the UK for my children's sake, not mine. I've had most of my life and want my children to have every chance in the future, those with children know that we would give our lives up for our children.......which makes a mockery of the accusations levelled to undermine the Referendum result. And I would add that in general an 18 year old hasn't had enough experience of life to warrant a more heavily weighted say in the decision making process. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 16:43:04 GMT
If the EU is so good, why do countries keep trying to leave it?
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