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Post by mrcoke on Nov 23, 2018 23:07:32 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. You are sad person if you feel resentful to those who voted differently to you and were in the majority. I voted to leave and and am not a little Britonite. I think leaving will create a huge opportunity for the UK to grow more rapidly in the world markets and not be ties to a stagnant Europe. So you vote in America,where you chose to live (and lost it sounds), and you want to vote in the UK as well! I'm sure Mr Trump would love you. |
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Post by numpty40 on Nov 23, 2018 23:24:53 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. You are sad person if you feel resentful to those who voted differently to you and were in the majority. I voted to leave and and am not a little Britonite. I think leaving will create a huge opportunity for the UK to grow more rapidly in the world markets and not be ties to a stagnant Europe. So you vote in America,where you chose to live (and lost it sounds), and you want to vote in the UK as well! I'm sure Mr Trump would love you. He's not a 'Little Britainite' yet chooses to live in a country where only 13% of the country travel abroad and most of those go to Canada or Mexico. |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 23, 2018 23:29:15 GMT
Whatever your argument is for leaving you took something away from me, my European citizenship and Identity that I've had since I was 8. Myself and many other ex-pat's weren't even permitted to vote despite living full time in the UK for 23 years. No surprise people are resentful towards those who voted to leave, it feels like I've been mugged by a band of Little Britainites. Trump is bad enough here but at least we get the chance to vote him out in 2 years. I'm a little puzzled as to why you believe a resident in the USA believes he should have a vote on the future for the residents of the UK. My thoughts too. If you have left the country, presumably for better opportunity elsewhere, why should you have a say on what’s left behind. I no longer live in Stoke so why should I have a say in what the council or the city decides to do. If we ever get out of the EU I would be equally comfortable with the UK having no say in EU affairs. |
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Post by prettything on Nov 24, 2018 0:02:34 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs.
I just don’t get it.
Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU?
What are these EU laws we had to abide by ?
Fishing laws, the human rights act?
What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see.
I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge.
We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash)
Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit?
Cold hard facts .
Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK.
All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets.
I can see those things with my own eyes!
I’m appalled.
And for those people defending this, shame on you.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 24, 2018 8:17:45 GMT
You do realise you've just listed a bunch of bad things which have happened to this country whilst we've been a member of the European Union, right? You sound as hot on the ball as our "I'm so proud of my European identity that I've fucked off to live in the United States of America" friend from higher up the page.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 24, 2018 8:31:02 GMT
"as half our exports go to the EU" Currently stands at 44% and shrinking, it was 55% in 2006. So with that in mind why would we wish to continue selling to the EU and not strike new FTA with the rest of the globe. New deals that would not alienate emerging markets through tariffs imposed by the protectionism of the CU ? We already have those trade deals with a third of the world. Soon we will have trade deals with none of the world. |
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Post by prettything on Nov 24, 2018 9:24:53 GMT
You do realise you've just listed a bunch of bad things which have happened to this country whilst we've been a member of the European Union, right? You sound as hot on the ball as our "I'm so proud of my European identity that I've fucked off to live in the United States of America" friend from higher up the page.[/ I think you over estimate the EU influence if you think they have responsibility for closing the police stations. I think you know that as well. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 24, 2018 9:34:22 GMT
Am I missing something here? If May goes off and signs a legally binding WA and it is then rejected by Parliament (likely) how do we get out of a binding agreement?
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Post by Davef on Nov 24, 2018 9:35:51 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. Basically EU law takes precedence over any member state law, so we wouldn't be able to pass a law that isn't compatible with EU law, like bringing in the death penalty for instance. As for trade deals, we can't strike them with other countries because we're part of the EU's common commercial policy. By signing the Lisbon Treaty, the UK and other member states handed authority to the EU to manage their trade policy. |
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Post by prettything on Nov 24, 2018 10:04:53 GMT
One of our biggest exports is services. So, nothing to do with the EU.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 24, 2018 10:09:56 GMT
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Post by prettything on Nov 24, 2018 10:12:14 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Nov 24, 2018 10:18:37 GMT
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 24, 2018 10:21:15 GMT
Could you explain this comment in more depth please? No but I can we have a house of parliament that is made up of Lords (not voted for) and house of commons (voted for on a first past the post system. In Europe they have MEP's voted for using a proportional representation system from all people in Europe from member states these form blocks in the European parliament aligned to there political beliefs. They have a council of ministers that are elected by each European government (which are voted for in each countries election) so again democratic. And before you say it a European president who is voted for by all elected members from all countries. so a system that is more democratic than the uk The members of the HoL are chosen by elected politicians. Your list is exactly why I voted to Leave. The EU is superfluous. Why do remainers think that the UK Parliament, HoL, Supreme Court and BoE aren't enough to Govern the UK? |
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Post by Timmypotter on Nov 24, 2018 10:28:13 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. Please Google these kinds of question before displaying ignorance on here. It's not hard. Your starter for 10: bfy.tw/L17E |
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Post by 4372 on Nov 24, 2018 10:37:18 GMT
The EU and our relationship to it, is not primarily about governing the Uk, certainly not for me.
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Post by prettything on Nov 24, 2018 10:38:17 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. Please Google these kinds of question before displaying ignorance on here. It's not hard. Your starter for 10: bfy.tw/L17ENothing ignorant here, my petulant friend. |
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 24, 2018 11:22:23 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. These cold hard facts are not so mate . Firstly we were the sick man of Europe in the preceding decade of thatcher taking power and no we were not free to make trade deals withe the rest of the world . As for these so called laws we make , well yes we do make our own laws but THE ECJ is the superior court in settlement of disputes. The major issues are not laws but rules set in Brussels ( Berlin ) for every aspect of our daily lives. Just 2 that are going on at the moment are 1. The elected government of Italy have had their budget rejected by Brussels (Berlin) and face massive financial sanctions if they don't do as they are told . 2. The elected government of Poland recently tried to change the retirement age of their high court judges , this move was vetoed in Brussels ( Berlin) and they have had to abandon this change . The commission have been calling for greater integration of European decision making . No thanks |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 24, 2018 11:42:34 GMT
I was reading somewhere (and this could be wrong) that the EU determines the amount of State aid that member countries gives to it's industries that are in financial/economic difficulties.
Moreover, that industries cannot be Nationalised under current EU Law.
And if this is correct, Labour's Manifesto pledge to Nationalise the Railways & National Grid etc is in actual fact, bollocks, unless we leave the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 24, 2018 11:48:43 GMT
I was reading somewhere (and this could be wrong) that the EU determines the amount of State aid that member countries gives to it's industries that are in financial/economic difficulties. Moreover, that industries cannot be Nationalised under current EU Law. And if this is correct, Labour's Manifesto pledge to Nationalise the Railways & National Grid etc is in actual fact, bollocks, unless we leave the EU. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 24, 2018 11:56:28 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. These cold hard facts are not so mate . Firstly we were the sick man of Europe in the preceding decade of thatcher taking power and no we were not free to make trade deals withe the rest of the world . As for these so called laws we make , well yes we do make our own laws but THE ECJ is the superior court in settlement of disputes. The major issues are not laws but rules set in Brussels ( Berlin ) for every aspect of our daily lives. Just 2 that are going on at the moment are 1. The elected government of Italy have had their budget rejected by Brussels (Berlin) and face massive financial sanctions if they don't do as they are told . 2. The elected government of Poland recently tried to change the retirement age of their high court judges , this move was vetoed in Brussels ( Berlin) and they have had to abandon this change . The commission have been calling for greater integration of European decision making . No thanks You are right of course Harry . But I would add that while we make "our own laws", we do have to implement directives and regulations The words speak for themselves but from Wikipedia " A directive is a legal act of the European Union which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result. It can be distinguished from regulations, which are self-executing and do not require any implementing measures". And of course the direction of travel is " more Europe", Ever Closer Union, further surrender of Sovereignty.... because the EU is about Political and Economic union. I'm not sure that Remainers knew what they were voting for ( I am not sure that they do now, because it is not about ' deals') |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 24, 2018 12:05:00 GMT
I was reading somewhere (and this could be wrong) that the EU determines the amount of State aid that member countries gives to it's industries that are in financial/economic difficulties. Moreover, that industries cannot be Nationalised under current EU Law. And if this is correct, Labour's Manifesto pledge to Nationalise the Railways & National Grid etc is in actual fact, bollocks, unless we leave the EU. Thanks John. Still not sure whether Labour could Nationalise Industries whilst still in the EU though. It's a subject I've not heard debated..although I would argue is extremely significant. |
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Post by felonious on Nov 24, 2018 12:07:29 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. The Sick man of Europe .... see Harry's comment for the correct date.
The current Sick man of Europe under this fantastic EU regime that's so good for the members. Is it Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, or one of the more recently "integrated" countries trying to fit into a system which has the fantastically successful Germany at the centre. ERM anyone? What a disaster but nothing like what's ahead when Italy goes or gets underpinned without UK money going into the pisspot.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 24, 2018 12:16:20 GMT
Thanks John. Still not sure whether Labour could Nationalise Industries whilst still in the EU though. It's a subject I've not heard debated..although I would argue is extremely significant. I'm not either Wizard. There is an argument that some of the European Railways are state owned, but I think that is a case of " ways to get round it" But because to be in the single market requires a level playing field as I understand it we could not subsidise for example a car industry. But then again there are ways round that/ other ways to subsidise. My argument is that the decision making should take place as close to the people as possible....and certainly not ' a one fits all' directive from Brussels.,..does/ can such a system take into account what is best for Greece/ UK Poland and Romania.. or best for the EU..... also their top down system relies on everyone abiding by the rules... which is another issue. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 24, 2018 12:33:55 GMT
Thanks John. Still not sure whether Labour could Nationalise Industries whilst still in the EU though. It's a subject I've not heard debated..although I would argue is extremely significant. EU rules generally forbid the creation of a state monopoly. In the case of the railways for example they are under the jurisdiction of the Fourth railway package of 2016. The 4th Railway Package is a set of 6 legislative texts designed to complete the single market for Rail services (Single European Railway Area). It covers what it calls the technical pillar and the market pillar. The technical bit covers health and safety and the technical side of a pan European operation of a single railway. The marketing bit is: "The market pillar will complete the process of gradual market opening started with the 1st railway package. It establishes the general right for railway undertakings established in one Member State to operate all types of passenger services everywhere in the EU, lays down rules aimed at improving impartiality in the governance of railway infrastructure and preventing discrimination and introduces the principle of mandatory tendering for public service contracts in rail" In other words it allows, via HS2, a high speed rail link from any EU state to northern England and vice versa. Anyway, as far as the railways go as long as part of it stays in the free market (operators) the rail infrastructure can be taken into public ownership. Full nationalisation is prohibited. The same applies to any other industry, eg you could nationalise the oil refineries as long as petrol stations were in a free market. Just my take on it, I'm sure Oggy could provide a deep legal analysis if required, after all he's a lawyer that voted for it. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 24, 2018 12:37:42 GMT
Thanks John. Still not sure whether Labour could Nationalise Industries whilst still in the EU though. It's a subject I've not heard debated..although I would argue is extremely significant. The Guardian seems to think there are barriers, that favour right wing government/ big business. The other two links I would think could only be fully understood by those involved in making bids beyond my need to know, I'd prefer someone just to interpret it for me....so I'm none the wiser . ....... From the Guardian; The Single Market Act has given rightwing governments carte blanche to sit back and watch millions of people lose their livelihoods, writes Ian MacKillop. But Nick Dearden cautions against stepping away from the EU and towards the US Given that the EU court of justice has deliberated that article 106 of the Single Market Act – the one prohibiting renationalisation – gives private companies the right to argue before their national courts that services must remain open to private-sector competition, it is hard to see any wriggle room there when Jeremy Corbyn seeks to implement his manifesto. the Redcar steelworks in October 2015, when the government refused to intervene in the liquidation process as it would be contrary to article 87? www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/25/eu-barriers-to-state-ownership-do-existeur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32014L0024europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/rules-procedures/index_en.htm |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 24, 2018 12:44:27 GMT
I was reading somewhere (and this could be wrong) that the EU determines the amount of State aid that member countries gives to it's industries that are in financial/economic difficulties. Moreover, that industries cannot be Nationalised under current EU Law. And if this is correct, Labour's Manifesto pledge to Nationalise the Railways & National Grid etc is in actual fact, bollocks, unless we leave the EU. I think I have brought that up before, and it puts the lie to Labour being able to negotiate with the EU. Clive Lewis was on the Question Time the other night, and people in the audience were openly laughing at his suggestion that Labour could just rock up and get a great deal. They really are clueless and gutless. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 24, 2018 12:49:30 GMT
I have issue with people saying that the EU have a say in our affairs. I just don’t get it. Weren’t we free to make deals with the rest of the world while we were in the EU? What are these EU laws we had to abide by ? Fishing laws, the human rights act? What sovereignty are we taking back? That doesn’t rule UK affairs at all as far as I can see. I remember the UK being “the sick man of Europe”, throughout the 80s when Thatcher was in charge. We had unprecedented growth from 92 ( when the Maastricht Treaty was signed) up until 2008. (The crash) Weren’t we the fastest growing economy in the G7 after that point, and then became the bottom of that group after Brexit? Cold hard facts . Bored of hyper links showing some car company is making their new viper 2000 car in the UK. All I see is the figures. I also see the Police stations closing, violent crime on the up, the NHS struggling, strikes, and shit load more homeless people on the streets. I can see those things with my own eyes! I’m appalled. And for those people defending this, shame on you. The Sick man of Europe .... see Harry's comment for the correct date.
The current Sick man of Europe under this fantastic EU regime that's so good for the members. Is it Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, or one of the more recently "integrated" countries trying to fit into a system which has the fantastically successful Germany at the centre. ERM anyone? What a disaster but nothing like what's ahead when Italy goes or gets underpinned without UK money going into the pisspot.
I don't think we will be allowed to leave, but I think history will prove that to be the real catastrophe, not the one predicted my many. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 24, 2018 12:53:03 GMT
I think that Diane deserves some credit for saying this, at least it's a small bit of clarity coming from Labour. Obviously it depends what they propose to DO about it
............
The British people were promised that the government would implement their vote. 17.4 million voted for Brexit. To have another vote would be a disgrace to democracy.
But given that Merkel and Macron are now openly calling for an EU Army, the unelected EU Commission are blocking Italy’s budget and the fury there would be if the public were told vote again, Leave would win by an even bigger margin.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 24, 2018 13:12:25 GMT
I think that Diane deserves some credit for saying this, at least it's a small bit of clarity coming from Labour. Obviously it depends what they propose to DO about it I think using her to bolster any argument is very risky, BJR. I wouldn't trust her to be right about anything. Interesting that she said it, though. Fucking hell, look at France at the moment. They know how to protest, don't they? Imagine if their democratic vote was being scuppered? |
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