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Post by essexstokey on Nov 22, 2018 20:26:37 GMT
Yes any matters patterning to the European unions articles and rules can be sent to the European court for adjudication and many things are from a variety of countries what the group including the Scottish government amongst others are trying to ascertain is if any country triggers article 50 then changes its mind can they revoke it and stay in under there existing rules/ membership. And before anyone says about a date being set for leaving to buy of the rebels the government excepted that a simple motion to amend the date could be put to amend the bill So you are basically saying that if any of the 28 countries decides to implement Article 50 the EU CT of Justice can override that decision and deem it invalid ...it are you saying that we would need the EU's " permission" ( for the want of a better word) to now say" we wish to withdraw Article 50"...I understand that a bit more No and you know that's not what i'm saying the ec is being asked to rule on this " once article 50 has been enacted can a country change its mind during the process at any point and stay in" the guidance is being sought by the court of sessions and the final ruling will come from them not the eu court. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2018 20:28:20 GMT
So you are basically saying that if any of the 28 countries decides to implement Article 50 the EU CT of Justice can override that decision and deem it invalid ...it are you saying that we would need the EU's " permission" ( for the want of a better word) to now say" we wish to withdraw Article 50"...I understand that a bit more No and you know that's not what i'm saying the ec is being asked to rule on this " once article 50 has been enacted can a country change its mind during the process at any point and stay in" the guidance is being sought by the court of sessions and the final ruling will come from them not the eu court. Actually I wasn't clear what you were saying.... probably my fault though |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 22, 2018 20:37:05 GMT
Really? Well that's not what my protestant friends are saying in Northern Ireland. The DUP are so concerned about May's deal giving Dublin more power over Northern Ireland that they are considering this..amongst other options. Putting it crudely they would prefer to stay in the tent (Union) pissing out than outside pissing in. So they will prop up a government where the leader believes and campaigned for a united Ireland And has attended memorials for the good old boys of the republican cause Highly unlikely I agree, but if they could extract concessions out of Labour that would benefit them then who knows. Whoever thought Ian Paisley would work with Martin McGuiness? Politics is a strange business. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 22, 2018 20:38:27 GMT
So they will prop up a government where the leader believes and campaigned for a united Ireland And has attended memorials for the good old boys of the republican cause Highly unlikely I agree, but if they could extract concessions out of Labour that would benefit them then who knows. Whoever thought Ian Paisley would work with Martin McGuiness? Politics is a strange business. It certainly is |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 22, 2018 20:40:51 GMT
Some in the German parliament understand what is going on. I think almost everyone ( yes that many) who have taken an interest in BREXIT in this country also understand what is really happening , but want it to happen for different reasons I was weakening earlier due to grinding pain from slipped discs, but now I'm back. Fuck EU!!!!! |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2018 21:09:18 GMT
This is a really good analysis, Rog. Thoroughly, thoroughly depressing at the self harm we are close to committing. Let’s hope the likes of Rudd and co are right that Parliament isn’t negligent enough to allow a no deal brexit which would, according to our own government, be a disaster. Surely they cannot be that negligent. Just for clarity Oggy, a ' no deal' is actually a " WTO rules deal" under which many countries trade perfectly well. Secondly the Referendum was not about deals, but about being in or out of the EU. Besides which we have had the Referendum , We voted to leave the EU, the CU, the SM, free movement, EuCtJ. We are not re running the Referendum. The Government made it clear that they wanted to stay in the EU and still do so they are hardly neutral. Like many decisions we have made it , for better or for worse It’s not the wto rules that will cause a problem with no deal though. |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 22, 2018 21:11:51 GMT
You can't vote for an option that has not been discussed between the UK/EU. That has no details, that cannot be assumed to be on the same terms as pre Article 50, that has not been agreed by the 27 remaining member states. So of the 2 options we have the details, WTO or May, which do you want on another referendum? The option to remain and possibly cancel article 50 is with the court of sessions in Scotland with the advice being sought on a ruling from the European court the government have spent millions trying this going to the court for a ruling and have been ruled against all the way up to the supreme court in the uk. it is now up to the European court to rule if this can be stopped (article 50) so as of this moment it is an option Regardless of whether we are allowed to revoke A50 or not, if permitted by the EU (you've beautifully highlighted far better than I can what is wrong with the EU right there,) there are no (publicly) known details for a remain option. Nobody has put up a link to a govt website, as I asked earlier, that states what actually is involved in voting for a remain option. If anybody honestly believes that if we decided to say 'hold it boys, we're staying in' that the EU would say 'as you were, nothings changed' then they can apply as jobs as Santa's elves. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2018 21:15:21 GMT
Just for clarity Oggy, a ' no deal' is actually a " WTO rules deal" under which many countries trade perfectly well. Secondly the Referendum was not about deals, but about being in or out of the EU. Besides which we have had the Referendum , We voted to leave the EU, the CU, the SM, free movement, EuCtJ. We are not re running the Referendum. The Government made it clear that they wanted to stay in the EU and still do so they are hardly neutral. Like many decisions we have made it , for better or for worse It’s not the wto rules that will cause a problem with no deal though. Go on then..... what will cause a problem with leaving under WTO rules? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2018 22:06:58 GMT
It’s not the wto rules that will cause a problem with no deal though. Go on then..... what will cause a problem with leaving under WTO rules? Well that will be bad for the economy. It’s crashing out from seamless and frictionless trade to a completely different system with no real time to prepare that’s the problem. Crashing out with no deal is the problem with no time to limit the enormous changes. What would be the status of brits in the EU, students studying there, people traveling there, eu citizens here. The shortages of food and medicines. The black holes in laws and unenforceable court orders in eu. Security issues with sharing of info with the eu. The hard border in Ireland and potential for the return of violence. Prices of products will rise, some of our exports to the eu would be rejected until each exporter is certified, there will delays at the borders for customs checks, foreign investment will drop further as non-eu businesses won’t favour investing here compared with the potential of the far bigger eu market, flights will be grounded until there is an agreement, electricity and oil and would have no legal basis to flow from the eu here (this will increase prices), we lose our trade deals we benefit from as eu members going from free trade with a third of the globe to free trade with nobody overnight, the eu will hinder our services industry from working in the EU, banks will lose passporting rights, tarriffs and restrictions on exports of goods and services will reduce company profits, inflation will rise, the value of the pound will fall and so prices will increase further and borrowing would cost more, industry, particularly the car industry, would be hammered by logistical delays at borders and increased costs, we have to rejoin things like the hague convention, the open skies agreement would be torn up, our immigration system is not ready to be up and running by end of march so whilst free movement would end, there’s no way of tracking people, cooperation on policing ends, no access to eu databases on criminal’s data, excluded from galileo, farmers would be hammered without subsidies. Is that a good enough start? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2018 22:15:19 GMT
Go on then..... what will cause a problem with leaving under WTO rules? Well that will be bad for the economy. It’s crashing out from seamless and frictionless trade to a completely different system with no real time to prepare that’s the problem. Crashing out with no deal is the problem with no time to limit the enormous changes. What would be the status of brits in the EU, students studying there, people traveling there, eu citizens here. The shortages of food and medicines. The black holes in laws and unenforceable court orders in eu. Security issues with sharing of info with the eu. The hard border in Ireland and potential for the return of violence. Prices of products will rise, some of our exports to the eu would be rejected until each exporter is certified, there will delays at the borders for customs checks, foreign investment will drop further as non-eu businesses won’t favour investing here compared with the potential of the far bigger eu market, flights will be grounded until there is an agreement, electricity and oil and would have no legal basis to flow from the eu here (this will increase prices), we lose our trade deals we benefit from as eu members going from free trade with a third of the globe to free trade with nobody overnight, the eu will hinder our services industry from working in the EU, banks will lose passporting rights, tarriffs and restrictions on exports of goods and services will reduce company profits, inflation will rise, the value of the pound will fall and so prices will increase further and borrowing would cost more, industry, particularly the car industry, would be hammered by logistical delays at borders and increased costs, we have to rejoin things like the hague convention, the open skies agreement would be torn up, our immigration system is not ready to be up and running by end of march so whilst free movement would end, there’s no way of tracking people, cooperation on policing ends, no access to eu databases on criminal’s data, excluded from galileo, farmers would be hammered without subsidies. Is that a good enough start? Not really. The time factor is now an issue because of the delibrate ploy of not really wanting to leave. Having said that it could be argued that we leave cleanly BUT in a transition period ( using the current ploy) all the things you mention remain the same WHERE NECESSARY until they are negotiated separately. The bottom line is that we trade with about 24 countries under WTO and don't have to accept Political and Economic union.eg USA and Australia |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 22, 2018 22:21:16 GMT
Extending Article 50 would again need EU co-operation and that could only be for about 6-7 weeks because the MEP elections kick in on 23rd May and if the UK isn't through the A50 period the UK MEP's could seek re-election which would complicate matters to say the least! Could there be an emergency extension to A50 AND a second ref? It's possible but they would literally need to start that process within the next week so that would need May and the EU to admit they were wrong in that Leave means Leave. Someone needs to tell Boris Johnson as he has already said that he would delay Brexit by 6 months but detail was never his strong point |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 22:47:09 GMT
This will end one of two ways. We'll crash out with no deal or, the shithouses will wangle it so that we stay in through the back door.
Personally not bothered if we stay in or not as I didn't vote (not enough facts during the campaign) but for democracy in this country, option 2 will be devastating which when built on top of the total lack of trust that exists in the current shambles, will pretty much end it here and now.
Poll turnouts will drop through the floor.
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 22, 2018 23:25:14 GMT
Very true john , labours problem is the lack of credibility within the leadership. Corbyn , McDonald, abbot and co are as far from labours traditional values as is possible to get . The deselection of traditional labour MPs and the conduct of momentum is a throwback to the craziness of the 70s and 80s . Labour should have pissed the last election , corbyn will be hard pressed the convince the swing voters he is worthy of their trust particularly with all of his baggage that he carries Traditional as in Tony Blair or traditional as in Clem Attlee? Traditional as in possessing a shred of decency and fareness |
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Post by harryburrows on Nov 22, 2018 23:27:41 GMT
Starmer was on the radio tonight explaining his version of the Labour position. As I understood him, they would reject the Withdrawal agreement as it does not meet any of their 6 conditions. Fair enough. But then he says that should Labour win power they would renegotiate a better deal in which we would be members of the SM, but with a negotiated agreement on Free movement. Absolutely ridiculous. The 4 freedom s are sacrosanct for the EU, thats the point. The EU have said that they won't renegotiate. Secondly the Withdrawal agreement is not scheduled to be debate d until the second week in December........ we've got the Xmas recess. So he thinks that we can have an election and renegotiation before March 29. What he really means is that " We can delay or reverse Brexit". Absolutely no realistic vision whatsoever. It is relatively easy being in opposition. At least Hitler had got one ball. Wasn't the other in the Albert Hall ? |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 23, 2018 0:30:39 GMT
This will end one of two ways. We'll crash out with no deal or, the shithouses will wangle it so that we stay in through the back door. Personally not bothered if we stay in or not as I didn't vote (not enough facts during the campaign) but for democracy in this country, option 2 will be devastating which when built on top of the total lack of trust that exists in the current shambles, will pretty much end it here and now. Poll turnouts will drop through the floor. It'll be interesting. We can't just stay in. They can't just openly kinda say oops we just found a new clause that says we can forget all about this. Because we voted to Leave. But the HoC will not pass May's deal. |
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Post by tuum on Nov 23, 2018 1:59:07 GMT
If remain won a second referendum then I would demand a third referendum because that would only be fair to all the electorate, don't you agree? So why not a third referendum now, as it stands its 1-1 don't you agree!! No problem with that...in 40 yrs time..just to be fair. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 23, 2018 6:04:26 GMT
Well that will be bad for the economy. It’s crashing out from seamless and frictionless trade to a completely different system with no real time to prepare that’s the problem. Crashing out with no deal is the problem with no time to limit the enormous changes. What would be the status of brits in the EU, students studying there, people traveling there, eu citizens here. The shortages of food and medicines. The black holes in laws and unenforceable court orders in eu. Security issues with sharing of info with the eu. The hard border in Ireland and potential for the return of violence. Prices of products will rise, some of our exports to the eu would be rejected until each exporter is certified, there will delays at the borders for customs checks, foreign investment will drop further as non-eu businesses won’t favour investing here compared with the potential of the far bigger eu market, flights will be grounded until there is an agreement, electricity and oil and would have no legal basis to flow from the eu here (this will increase prices), we lose our trade deals we benefit from as eu members going from free trade with a third of the globe to free trade with nobody overnight, the eu will hinder our services industry from working in the EU, banks will lose passporting rights, tarriffs and restrictions on exports of goods and services will reduce company profits, inflation will rise, the value of the pound will fall and so prices will increase further and borrowing would cost more, industry, particularly the car industry, would be hammered by logistical delays at borders and increased costs, we have to rejoin things like the hague convention, the open skies agreement would be torn up, our immigration system is not ready to be up and running by end of march so whilst free movement would end, there’s no way of tracking people, cooperation on policing ends, no access to eu databases on criminal’s data, excluded from galileo, farmers would be hammered without subsidies. Is that a good enough start? Not really. The time factor is now an issue because of the delibrate ploy of not really wanting to leave. Having said that it could be argued that we leave cleanly BUT in a transition period ( using the current ploy) all the things you mention remain the same WHERE NECESSARY until they are negotiated separately. The bottom line is that we trade with about 24 countries under WTO and don't have to accept Political and Economic union.eg USA and Australia The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 7:38:32 GMT
Not really. The time factor is now an issue because of the delibrate ploy of not really wanting to leave. Having said that it could be argued that we leave cleanly BUT in a transition period ( using the current ploy) all the things you mention remain the same WHERE NECESSARY until they are negotiated separately. The bottom line is that we trade with about 24 countries under WTO and don't have to accept Political and Economic union.eg USA and Australia The bottom line is, trading on WTO rules compared with the amazing benefits we now have in terms of trade with a third of the world as being a member of of the EU, and this changing overnight, will be disasterous for us all. 10 or 20% tarriffs for the next, say, 5 years if we are very quick to get a trade deal with the EU will haemorrhage our economy and people’s lives with job losses and high inflation and low pay rises and much higher costs of living. Yes it will also hurt the EU, but it will be significantly worse for us due to economies of scale. All for this mythical sovereignty that doesn’t exist in a globalised world, a fear of foreigners and to take back control by vastly reducing our global influence and power....a no deal brexit with a transition period of 2 years will be bad, one with no transition will be a total failure by the government and awful for the poorest in particular. Fear of foreigners 😂 Good to see the usual cliched bollocks being trotted out. |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 23, 2018 7:53:06 GMT
So why not a third referendum now, as it stands its 1-1 don't you agree!! No problem with that...in 40 yrs time..just to be fair. One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 23, 2018 8:09:10 GMT
No problem with that...in 40 yrs time..just to be fair. One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! Is Reis-Mogg his German cousin mate? |
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Post by bathstoke on Nov 23, 2018 8:09:40 GMT
Brexit it is like the world of Muggles, Mudbloods, Witches & Wizards
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 23, 2018 8:12:36 GMT
Brexit it is like the world of Muggles, Mudbloods, Witches & Wizards Brexit is in the imagination of some shit Scottish writer |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 23, 2018 8:27:40 GMT
No problem with that...in 40 yrs time..just to be fair. One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! He said there would be no benefit for 60 years maybe go back and get someone to read it / explain it to you again as I believe he said full benefit.... |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 23, 2018 8:52:02 GMT
One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! He said there would be no benefit for 60 years maybe go back and get someone to read it / explain it to you again as I believe he said full benefit.... He actually said we'd be better off out OVER a 50 year period and beyond. Short term upheaval for long term gain. And if anyone is worried about Russia please explain why Merkel has committed Germany's energy supply to Putin's Russia via Nord Stream II? Anyway. Despite Brexit etc etc..... |
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 23, 2018 8:59:40 GMT
Former Brexit secretary and our chief Brexit negotiator Dominic Raab has claimed that Theresa May’s deal on Brexit would be worse than staying in the EU.
Ouch!!!
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Post by pearo on Nov 23, 2018 9:05:58 GMT
No problem with that...in 40 yrs time..just to be fair. One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! Do you really believe all the fake reports being led by the BBC, Sky News, The Guardian, The Evening Standard and others that the leave vote has changed it’s mind. There may well be a few people down south who fall for these tactics but up north we are made of sterner stuff and have the resolution and courage to see this journey through to achieve the result the nation voted for. |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Nov 23, 2018 9:20:50 GMT
Brexit always has been and always will be a fucking terrible idea.
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 23, 2018 9:43:15 GMT
One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! Do you really believe all the fake reports being led by the BBC, Sky News, The Guardian, The Evening Standard and others that the leave vote has changed it’s mind. There may well be a few people down south who fall for these tactics but up north we are made of sterner stuff and have the resolution and courage to see this journey through to achieve the result the nation voted for. and what powers do these people up North who have the courage to see this journey have exactly? all this Brexit narrative was based on the myth that people will somehow have powers or control that they never had, or never will have, pre-EU, in EU or post EU. Do you think the likes of Rees Mogg really want to start giving any kind of control or self governance to people up North? That's the last thing the people who have pushed for this Brexit want. Their job was to simply create the illusion that this would be the case. |
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Post by essexstokey on Nov 23, 2018 10:00:38 GMT
One problem Jacob reis mogg the brexiter in chief says no benefit will be seen for 60 years (his words not mine) and lets get that in perspective a child of 5 will have a life of paying for the mistakes of this generation. and as its now showing a majority of the people are now for staying in and its widely reported and acknowledged that the leave campaign used advertising tricks and lies to win the debate, and also were potentially funded by outside nations possibly putin and Russia its time for a new referendum and if the leave campaign are so sure that they have not done anything and its the will of the people what have they got to loose? it will confirm there support but instead they are acting as chickens as they know they conned the British people with promises that they were never going to keep and will easily lose. So bring on the next referendum!!!!!! Do you really believe all the fake reports being led by the BBC, Sky News, The Guardian, The Evening Standard and others that the leave vote has changed it’s mind. There may well be a few people down south who fall for these tactics but up north we are made of sterner stuff and have the resolution and courage to see this journey through to achieve the result the nation voted for. So why are you leavers so scared of a referendum if the vote is a forgone conclusion!! you should be saying bring it on!!!! |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 23, 2018 10:04:59 GMT
Do you really believe all the fake reports being led by the BBC, Sky News, The Guardian, The Evening Standard and others that the leave vote has changed it’s mind. There may well be a few people down south who fall for these tactics but up north we are made of sterner stuff and have the resolution and courage to see this journey through to achieve the result the nation voted for. So why are you leavers so scared of a referendum if the vote is a forgone conclusion!! you should be saying bring it on!!!! I'm not scared of one, I just think the wishes of those who could be arsed to vote first time should be respected, not the cries of the whiners who decided not to bother. |
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