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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 6:49:43 GMT
Junker's approach to politics.., On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011 "When it becomes serious, you have to lie. On EU monetary policy "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates" On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,” On French referendum over EU constitution “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,” On the introduction of the euro "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." On eurozone economic policy and democracy “We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it” www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10967168/Jean-Claude-Junckers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 21, 2018 8:09:14 GMT
Some Leavers think we'll still be in the EU after we've left the EU. There'd be more sense from someone who is comatose. Do you believe everything you are told or read by your masters? Or just select what you want to believe to suit your fantasy EU. Even the greatest Labour leader since the Atlee government , a keen Remainer, sees through " the deal". Frim the link below........... But he said: “Nothing can disguise the nature of the deal she has chosen, if reports of it are true. “This deal isn’t a compromise, it’s a capitulation. “The withdrawal agreement will keep us tied to EU trade policy until there is an end established by ‘joint consent’ – in other words, the EU has a veto. www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/14/blair-condemns-pms-brexit-deal-as-capitulation-to-eu/Mind you, you seem willing to be deceived as long as the deception looks like it supports your argument.We've caved in...... The elaborate camouflage seems to have misled you, because you want it to......... unless you believe May of course. Nowhere in that quote does Blair say we are not leaving the EU, which sort of proves my vote. The deal is shit, I think we can all agree on that - but there's also no doubt that as things stand we are leaving the EU. And we're leaving on the terms that the democratically-elected leader of the United Kingdom has negotiated, and it will be judged by the democratically-elected MPs of the the UK. Exactly the sort of control we voted to take back, apparently. The masters of the Brexit establishment have got you well and truly conned - you can't even admit a simple binary fact that if we leave the EU we will not be in the EU. Almost everything about Brexit is opinion, and while I will disagree with some people I know that opinion can be discussed, debated and questioned without ever maybe coming to one true correct answer. However, whether you are a member of try the EU or not is not really an opinion - it's fact. And reading all the Brexit establishment's Twitter content that tells you 2+2=5 is not going to change that. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 8:31:38 GMT
Do you believe everything you are told or read by your masters? Or just select what you want to believe to suit your fantasy EU. Even the greatest Labour leader since the Atlee government , a keen Remainer, sees through " the deal". Frim the link below........... But he said: “Nothing can disguise the nature of the deal she has chosen, if reports of it are true. “This deal isn’t a compromise, it’s a capitulation. “The withdrawal agreement will keep us tied to EU trade policy until there is an end established by ‘joint consent’ – in other words, the EU has a veto. www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/14/blair-condemns-pms-brexit-deal-as-capitulation-to-eu/Mind you, you seem willing to be deceived as long as the deception looks like it supports your argument.We've caved in...... The elaborate camouflage seems to have misled you, because you want it to......... unless you believe May of course. Nowhere in that quote does Blair say we are not leaving the EU, which sort of proves my vote. The deal is shit, I think we can all agree on that - but there's also no doubt that as things stand we are leaving the EU. And we're leaving on the terms that the democratically-elected leader of the United Kingdom has negotiated, and it will be judged by the democratically-elected MPs of the the UK. Exactly the sort of control we voted to take back, apparently. The masters of the Brexit establishment have got you well and truly conned - you can't even admit a simple binary fact that if we leave the EU we will not be in the EU. Almost everything about Brexit is opinion, and while I will disagree with some people I know that opinion can be discussed, debated and questioned without ever maybe coming to one true correct answer. However, whether you are a member of try the EU or not is not really an opinion - it's fact. And reading all the Brexit establishment's Twitter content that tells you 2+2=5 is not going to change that. He indicates that a deception has taken place. Everything about BREXIT is not opinion , it is the most important Political question facing the country. I don't think you are being conned I think that you are being deliberately selective of what has happened, is happening and about the nature of the EU. At least I hope that is the case because to be oblivious of such matters says alot |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 21, 2018 9:52:40 GMT
Nowhere in that quote does Blair say we are not leaving the EU, which sort of proves my vote. The deal is shit, I think we can all agree on that - but there's also no doubt that as things stand we are leaving the EU. And we're leaving on the terms that the democratically-elected leader of the United Kingdom has negotiated, and it will be judged by the democratically-elected MPs of the the UK. Exactly the sort of control we voted to take back, apparently. The masters of the Brexit establishment have got you well and truly conned - you can't even admit a simple binary fact that if we leave the EU we will not be in the EU. Almost everything about Brexit is opinion, and while I will disagree with some people I know that opinion can be discussed, debated and questioned without ever maybe coming to one true correct answer. However, whether you are a member of try the EU or not is not really an opinion - it's fact. And reading all the Brexit establishment's Twitter content that tells you 2+2=5 is not going to change that. He indicates that a deception has taken place. Everything about BREXIT is not opinion , it is the most important Political question facing the country. I don't think you are being conned I think that you are being deliberately selective of what has happened, is happening and about the nature of the EU. At least I hope that is the case because to be oblivious of such matters says alot "Everything about BREXIT is not opinion , it is the most important Political question facing the country." The two aren't mutually exclusive are they? It is both very important, and about people's opinions on the best way forward. |
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Post by yeokel on Nov 21, 2018 10:00:56 GMT
They are not just soundbites they are the intended direction of Ever Closer Union...it's not just a game , they are deadly serious. It is about the future direction of the UK because some who cannot accept the Referendum result still hope to ignore and reverse the decision ....... But for now there are no concrete plans for an EU army, only people talking and making grand gestures that may amount to diddly squat You don't know that for certain. All you know is that you are not aware of any and that none have been widely distributed. But, that doesn't mean that none exist, and the fact that powerful European politicians are now mentioning an EU army could indicate that, although it is not common knowledge, as far as they are concerned it is an ongoing project of which they can begin to drip feed information. I'll freely admit that I, like you, know of no concrete, published plans but I also accept that the several recent mentions of such a project might suggest that something is afoot. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 21, 2018 10:07:13 GMT
They are much more than soundbites. Merkel ( leaving aside, Juncker, Macron and Guy Verhostadt) was talking at the EU Parliament precisely about the future of the EU. You can't just pick and choose what is important....it's ridiculous to say that this is not important....it's a clear intention, no doubt about it. If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. I wouldn’t trust anything a politician says Are remain politians untrustworthy also ? Or have you the age old problem of only believing what you want to hear |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 21, 2018 10:13:07 GMT
If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. I wouldn’t trust anything a politician says Are remain politians untrustworthy also ? Or have you the age old problem of only believing what you want to hear |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 21, 2018 10:15:22 GMT
....... But for now there are no concrete plans for an EU army, only people talking and making grand gestures that may amount to diddly squat You don't know that for certain. All you know is that you are not aware of any and that none have been widely distributed. But, that doesn't mean that none exist, and the fact that powerful European politicians are now mentioning an EU army could indicate that, although it is not common knowledge, as far as they are concerned it is an ongoing project of which they can begin to drip feed information. I'll freely admit that I, like you, know of no concrete, published plans but I also accept that the several recent mentions of such a project might suggest that something is afoot. Fair point. I meant that there's no public plans on which to form an opinion. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 21, 2018 10:24:21 GMT
I wouldn’t trust anything a politician says Are remain politians untrustworthy also ? Or have you the age old problem of only believing what you want to hear Fair enough |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 10:24:53 GMT
He indicates that a deception has taken place. Everything about BREXIT is not opinion , it is the most important Political question facing the country. I don't think you are being conned I think that you are being deliberately selective of what has happened, is happening and about the nature of the EU. At least I hope that is the case because to be oblivious of such matters says alot "Everything about BREXIT is not opinion , it is the most important Political question facing the country." The two aren't mutually exclusive are they? It is both very important, and about people's opinions on the best way forward. Well in a sense they are if you say" EVERYTHING"....it doesn't leave much room for actualities |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 11:27:23 GMT
Some good news at last: Labour are keeping their options open.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 21, 2018 11:53:56 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 17:27:07 GMT
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Post by starkiller on Nov 21, 2018 17:32:52 GMT
Loathing for the EU has actually intensified.
If you think our lot are bad, this unelected, anti-democratic brood of vipers are fucking despicable.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 17:36:28 GMT
Loathing for the EU has actually intensified. If you think our lot are bad, this unelected, anti-democratic brood of vipers are fucking despicable. Steady on , they are doing the best they can for us...the future of our country for our children is their priority.....at the forefront of their minds |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 18:10:13 GMT
I've always found that Ruth Lea talks sense
..............
from the link that she provides
I've only read the executive summary but it does provide a different perspective on trade.
In my experience trading with our European friends is infinitely more difficult than it is to trade with
other countries outside the EU. It has, for instance, been easier for us to export to Mongolia than to
France, despite the fact we were founded there in 1919.
The reasons for this are obvious, the EU is bureaucratic by its very nature and its Customs Union is
a fortress designed to protect producers inside it rather than encourage open free trade where
everyone can benefit. But we are not and never have been protected by this protectionist regime.
Instead we have seen the steady ebb of manufacturing move to other areas of the EU – and even to
areas beyond – as a result of our membership. Add to the bureaucracy and protectionism; the
uneven playing field, demise of our world renown British Standards (seen by many as the finest in
the world) and the constant anti-competitive diet of bad EU Regulation and Directives which our civil
servants gold plate, it is no wonder that our productivity and ability to grow has been held back.
The EU system suits only the multinationals who have the means to lobby and unfairly profit at the
expense of the vast majority of UK businesses.
This paper is a revelation because it exposes the truth that we have been on the receiving end of a
carefully orchestrated blizzard of false facts and predictions that are not born out by the evidence.
Indeed the seventeen myths that are taken down here are testimony to the prevalence of fear-
mongering throughout the Brexit debate to make it appear "catastrophic" to live and trade outside
the EU. Yet if we only ask ourselves how perfectly normal and successful countries such as China and
Australia on the other side of the world – and the USA on the other side of the Atlantic – have been
able to trade successfully with the EU and the UK from outside its customs Union we have to admit
life and trade in such a circumstance is not catastrophic at all.
Indeed living under WTO rules is successful, profitable and life-enhancing for their societies. To be
free to trade with the growing world will reap huge rewards for our country and our trading
partners. We will then see the reversal of the huge trading deficit of circa £100 Billion per year in
goods our EU membership has delivered.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 18:17:52 GMT
What do you make of the "hard" Brexiteers, BJR? Must admit, they have disappointed me.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 21, 2018 18:24:00 GMT
How about.... Labour votes down the Brexit WA. A Second ref is run with 4 options: 1.Remain 2.Leave with no deal 3. Leave with May's deal 4. Leave with a technological answer to the back stop. Remain wins. Govt falls and Labour win a landslide. Corbyn puts together his £1 Trillion pound deficit budget to fix the NHS, nationalise the railways etc etc. EU sends his budget back as it breaks their rules.  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 18:26:35 GMT
What do you make of the "hard" Brexiteers, BJR? Must admit, they have disappointed me. Unfortunately I simply think that there are not enough of them to win a leadership challenge so they dare not mount one. I believe that they were,/ are waiting for things to get so bad for May that more MPs turn against her or she resigns/ goes to the country herself . I think that things could still change, obviously the Gibraltar issue and if it becomes clear that France want to grab our fish but most of all, if she loses the Commons vote. I'm most disappointed in the 5 who've remained in the Cabinet but optimistically perhaps they have something up their sleeves.... resignation s after losing the Commons vote. Unfortunately it is clear that the Political class don't support Brexit but the UK citizens do... that's the basic problem....they know best( for themselves) and the public/ working class need to know their place |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 18:31:48 GMT
What do you make of the "hard" Brexiteers, BJR? Must admit, they have disappointed me. Unfortunately I simply think that there are not enough of them to win a leadership challenge so they dare not mount one. I believe that they were,/ are waiting for things to get so bad for May that more MPs turn against her or she resigns/ goes to the country herself . I think that things could still change, obviously the Gibraltar issue and if it becomes clear that France want to grab our fish but most of all, if she loses the Commons vote. I'm most disappointed in the 5 who've remained in the Cabinet but optimistically perhaps they have something up their sleeves.... resignation s after losing the Commons vote. Unfortunately it is clear that the Political class don't support Brexit but the UK citizens do... that's the basic problem....they know best( for themselves) and the public/ working class need to know their place Nige hinted that some might have one eye on the Lords, later. I wouldn't be surprised, to be honest. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 18:36:02 GMT
How about.... Labour votes down the Brexit WA. A Second ref is run with 4 options: 1.Remain 2.Leave with no deal 3. Leave with May's deal 4. Leave with a technological answer to the back stop. Remain wins. Govt falls and Labour win a landslide. Corbyn puts together his £1 Trillion pound deficit budget to fix the NHS, nationalise the railways etc etc. EU sends his budget back as it breaks their rules. I can agree with that Clayton. At least I don't think that things will be the same again in respect of the EU...if we " stay in" I think that people will be more critical of what they do/ interfere with/ control. One thing I think that language and control of language has been very important post BREXIT. New concepts were introduced , Soft and hard Brexit when the the Referendum was IN or OUT....soft and hard Brexit refer to deals , a completely different issue. A People's vote.... that's what the Referendum was. A Cliff Edge/ No deal... actually it would be WTo rules under which most countries trade.. preparations and negotiation s should have been made for this from day one/ alongside which if the EU want to negotiate a trade deal let's do so.....but from the stance of an independent sovereign country |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 21, 2018 18:55:56 GMT
How about.... Labour votes down the Brexit WA. A Second ref is run with 4 options: 1.Remain 2.Leave with no deal 3. Leave with May's deal 4. Leave with a technological answer to the back stop. Remain wins. Govt falls and Labour win a landslide. Corbyn puts together his £1 Trillion pound deficit budget to fix the NHS, nationalise the railways etc etc. EU sends his budget back as it breaks their rules.  I can agree with that Clayton. At least I don't think that things will be the same again in respect of the EU...if we " stay in" I think that people will be more critical of what they do/ interfere with/ control. One thing I think that language and control of language has been very important post BREXIT. New concepts were introduced , Soft and hard Brexit when the the Referendum was IN or OUT....soft and hard Brexit refer to deals , a completely different issue. A People's vote.... that's what the Referendum was. A Cliff Edge/ No deal... actually it would be WTo rules under which most countries trade.. preparations and negotiation s should have been made for this from day one/ alongside which if the EU want to negotiate a trade deal let's do so.....but from the stance of an independent sovereign country Naturally there'll be a Peoples Vote on the terms of remaining... If that fails to get approval then we'll just be a blue planet hurtling to the end of time. As you say BJR, the world has changed since June 2016 and the legal challenges, media fake news etc will mean every decision around the EU, regardless of the direction of travel, will be challenged by some disaffected group. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 19:09:13 GMT
The talk of there being no will for no deal or a hard Brexit in the commons makes me chuckle. There is no will for any kind of Brexit!
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 21, 2018 20:13:40 GMT
How about.... Labour votes down the Brexit WA. A Second ref is run with 4 options: 1.Remain 2.Leave with no deal 3. Leave with May's deal 4. Leave with a technological answer to the back stop. Remain wins. Govt falls and Labour win a landslide. Corbyn puts together his £1 Trillion pound deficit budget to fix the NHS, nationalise the railways etc etc. EU sends his budget back as it breaks their rules. I can agree with that Clayton. At least I don't think that things will be the same again in respect of the EU...if we " stay in" I think that people will be more critical of what they do/ interfere with/ control. One thing I think that language and control of language has been very important post BREXIT. New concepts were introduced , Soft and hard Brexit when the the Referendum was IN or OUT....soft and hard Brexit refer to deals , a completely different issue. A People's vote.... that's what the Referendum was. A Cliff Edge/ No deal... actually it would be WTo rules under which most countries trade.. preparations and negotiation s should have been made for this from day one/ alongside which if the EU want to negotiate a trade deal let's do so.....but from the stance of an independent sovereign country There’s only one thing wrong with your post The electoral commission I believe will only allow two questions on the referendum paper Now how remain fixes that I have no clue |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 20:24:13 GMT
I can agree with that Clayton. At least I don't think that things will be the same again in respect of the EU...if we " stay in" I think that people will be more critical of what they do/ interfere with/ control. One thing I think that language and control of language has been very important post BREXIT. New concepts were introduced , Soft and hard Brexit when the the Referendum was IN or OUT....soft and hard Brexit refer to deals , a completely different issue. A People's vote.... that's what the Referendum was. A Cliff Edge/ No deal... actually it would be WTo rules under which most countries trade.. preparations and negotiation s should have been made for this from day one/ alongside which if the EU want to negotiate a trade deal let's do so.....but from the stance of an independent sovereign country There’s only one thing wrong with your post The electoral commission I believe will only allow two questions on the referendum paper Now how remain fixes that I have no clue I didn't know that Waga but I don't think that I've mentioned the possible question in the next possible Referendum....I think that Amber Rudd had been saying today.....May's deal or Remain |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 21, 2018 20:57:06 GMT
There’s only one thing wrong with your post The electoral commission I believe will only allow two questions on the referendum paper Now how remain fixes that I have no clue I didn't know that Waga but I don't think that I've mentioned the possible question in the next possible Referendum....I think that Amber Rudd had been saying today.....May's deal or Remain In that case Mays deal it is |
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Post by ravey123 on Nov 21, 2018 21:01:09 GMT
There’s only one thing wrong with your post The electoral commission I believe will only allow two questions on the referendum paper Now how remain fixes that I have no clue I didn't know that Waga but I don't think that I've mentioned the possible question in the next possible Referendum....I think that Amber Rudd had been saying today.....May's deal or Remain Surely they're the same frigging thing. Like the choice of - what do you want today - to be killed by shooting in the head or to be killed by being mown down by a train. Different questions but both have the same outcome |
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Post by Davef on Nov 21, 2018 21:17:00 GMT
I've always found that Ruth Lea talkd sense .............. from the link that she provides I've only read the executive summary but it does provide a different perspective on trade. In my experience trading with our European friends is infinitely more difficult than it is to trade with other countries outside the EU. It has, for instance, been easier for us to export to Mongolia than to France, despite the fact we were founded there in 1919. The reasons for this are obvious, the EU is bureaucratic by its very nature and its Customs Union is a fortress designed to protect producers inside it rather than encourage open free trade where everyone can benefit. But we are not and never have been protected by this protectionist regime. Instead we have seen the steady ebb of manufacturing move to other areas of the EU – and even to areas beyond – as a result of our membership. Add to the bureaucracy and protectionism; the uneven playing field, demise of our world renown British Standards (seen by many as the finest in the world) and the constant anti-competitive diet of bad EU Regulation and Directives which our civil servants gold plate, it is no wonder that our productivity and ability to grow has been held back. The EU system suits only the multinationals who have the means to lobby and unfairly profit at the expense of the vast majority of UK businesses. This paper is a revelation because it exposes the truth that we have been on the receiving end of a carefully orchestrated blizzard of false facts and predictions that are not born out by the evidence. Indeed the seventeen myths that are taken down here are testimony to the prevalence of fear- mongering throughout the Brexit debate to make it appear "catastrophic" to live and trade outside the EU. Yet if we only ask ourselves how perfectly normal and successful countries such as China and Australia on the other side of the world – and the USA on the other side of the Atlantic – have been able to trade successfully with the EU and the UK from outside its customs Union we have to admit life and trade in such a circumstance is not catastrophic at all. Indeed living under WTO rules is successful, profitable and life-enhancing for their societies. To be free to trade with the growing world will reap huge rewards for our country and our trading partners. We will then see the reversal of the huge trading deficit of circa £100 Billion per year in goods our EU membership has delivered. |
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Post by thevoid on Nov 22, 2018 8:00:55 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2018 8:01:42 GMT
I've always found that Ruth Lea talkd sense .............. from the link that she provides I've only read the executive summary but it does provide a different perspective on trade. In my experience trading with our European friends is infinitely more difficult than it is to trade with other countries outside the EU. It has, for instance, been easier for us to export to Mongolia than to France, despite the fact we were founded there in 1919. The reasons for this are obvious, the EU is bureaucratic by its very nature and its Customs Union is a fortress designed to protect producers inside it rather than encourage open free trade where everyone can benefit. But we are not and never have been protected by this protectionist regime. Instead we have seen the steady ebb of manufacturing move to other areas of the EU – and even to areas beyond – as a result of our membership. Add to the bureaucracy and protectionism; the uneven playing field, demise of our world renown British Standards (seen by many as the finest in the world) and the constant anti-competitive diet of bad EU Regulation and Directives which our civil servants gold plate, it is no wonder that our productivity and ability to grow has been held back. The EU system suits only the multinationals who have the means to lobby and unfairly profit at the expense of the vast majority of UK businesses. This paper is a revelation because it exposes the truth that we have been on the receiving end of a carefully orchestrated blizzard of false facts and predictions that are not born out by the evidence. Indeed the seventeen myths that are taken down here are testimony to the prevalence of fear- mongering throughout the Brexit debate to make it appear "catastrophic" to live and trade outside the EU. Yet if we only ask ourselves how perfectly normal and successful countries such as China and Australia on the other side of the world – and the USA on the other side of the Atlantic – have been able to trade successfully with the EU and the UK from outside its customs Union we have to admit life and trade in such a circumstance is not catastrophic at all. Indeed living under WTO rules is successful, profitable and life-enhancing for their societies. To be free to trade with the growing world will reap huge rewards for our country and our trading partners. We will then see the reversal of the huge trading deficit of circa £100 Billion per year in goods our EU membership has delivered. I've read it Dave and many of the comments on the blog following in response. To be honest it just seems like an attempt to make an argument for Remain and Im not at all sure what the main criticism is of Lilley. If you could highlight ONE main criticism from your link I would like to look at it further but it seems like a bad attempt to oppose what Lilley said to me. Lilley has been one if the main advocates of BREXIT before it was conceived in its current form and one of the bastards in Major's government. ( I can also remember disliking him under Thatcher) It seems to me that Lilley is simply saying that countries DO trade under WTO ruled and it DOES seem to be frictionless.( and he does add the caveat" from my experience") I don't clam to know much at all about trade but this seems to be the case to me. I genuinely don't know but will try to find out...but under what rules do we trade with Japan , Korea, USA ..... perhaps an EE contributor could tell me. I did hear the link below where Lilley, in my opinion, makes clear the argument for Canada +++ or WTO and answers the criticism that your link ( I think) makes. order-order.com/2018/11/20/peter-lilleys-scrap-bbc-reality-check/amp/?__twitter_impression=true |
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