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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 20, 2018 17:29:23 GMT
Don’t be sure that remain would win there will only be a binary option In or out A lot will depend on how the Eu allows us to remain I wouldn’t be to sure they will allow us to keep the rebate And then you have the Eu army they let out of the bag Remain wil win the 2nd vote, should there be one, because there will only be one Remain option to vote for but various leave optoins, deal, no deal, backstop etc, thus the combined leave vote may still be higher but in the context of a vote none of them alone will beat remain. I never thought the result would be honoured. I am only surprised that the first vote wasn't rigged. Its Bullseye Brexit : let's have a look at what you could have won! |
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2018 17:39:21 GMT
Don’t be sure that remain would win there will only be a binary option In or out A lot will depend on how the Eu allows us to remain I wouldn’t be to sure they will allow us to keep the rebate And then you have the Eu army they let out of the bag Remain wil win the 2nd vote, should there be one, because there will only be one Remain option to vote for but various leave optoins, deal, no deal, backstop etc, thus the combined leave vote may still be higher but in the context of a vote none of them alone will beat remain. If they pulled that trick which I’m not saying they won’t then you will have political chaos of the like you have never seen before |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 17:50:49 GMT
Remain wil win the 2nd vote, should there be one, because there will only be one Remain option to vote for but various leave optoins, deal, no deal, backstop etc, thus the combined leave vote may still be higher but in the context of a vote none of them alone will beat remain. If they pulled that trick which I’m not saying they won’t then you will have political chaos of the like you have never seen before I'm not sure that there would be a new Referendum because of that very reason , agreeing on the question... but also the risk that Remain might actually lose.... that would really mean BREXIT , a risk too far. Perhaps the strategy is to get some sort of BRINO agreed and some years down the line we/ the leaders/our politicians deciding it is now best to rejoin ( fairly easy to do because we weren't out anyway....but the terms might be " worse" or the Euro..,... although if you believe in the project that should be ' better'..…part of closer union). The argument would be that the Referendum was so long ago, things have changed....we are better off in |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 18:09:23 GMT
The French and German s agree that there should be a European Empire...........( whose the Emperor/ Empress?) Europe has a choice: nationalism or sovereignty. France chooses sovereignty, and I’ll go even further: I think Europe has to become an empire again; a “peaceful empire” in the words of Tocqueville, but an empire nonetheless. Between the American empire and the Chinese empire, Europe must assert itself as a peaceful empire. uk.ambafrance.org/Europe-must-become-a-peaceful-empire-says-Minister |
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 20, 2018 18:53:16 GMT
If they pulled that trick which I’m not saying they won’t then you will have political chaos of the like you have never seen before I'm not sure that there would be a new Referendum because of that very reason , agreeing on the question... but also the risk that Remain might actually lose.... that would really mean BREXIT , a risk too far. Perhaps the strategy is to get some sort of BRINO agreed and some years down the line we/ the leaders/our politicians deciding it is now best to rejoin ( fairly easy to do because we weren't out anyway....but the terms might be " worse" or the Euro..,... although if you believe in the project that should be ' better'..…part of closer union). The argument would be that the Referendum was so long ago, things have changed....we are better off in I voted to remain. I lost. If there was another vote, I'd vote to leave. Many reasons for this, but the biggest is I happen to believe in democracy and will follow whatever road it takes us down. Part of me wants it to happen because I believe a new result would be even more emphatic to leave. |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 20, 2018 19:00:52 GMT
"Spain's prime minister has said his country will vote against the draft Brexit withdrawal agreement if the text on Gibraltar is not changed.
As of today, if there are no changes with respect to Gibraltar, Spain will vote no to the agreement on Brexit," Pedro Sanchez says."Awkward. The EU have said there can be no changes to the WA, obviously to thwart May. The genie's out of the bottle if Spain are allowed to make changes. I have every confidence that May will concede Gibraltar......she would sell her own grandmother such is her spineless approach to Brexit. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 19:01:37 GMT
A question for Remainers;
It seems that whether we actually Leave the EU is still in the air, perhaps we BRINO, perhaps we exit with no deal(simply proper Brexit , a separate issue to " deals") or perhaps we have a referendum and we decide to stay ( given that it might be on different terms).. .......If we Remain, which presumably that is what you are currently arguing for, what is so wrong with joining the Euro which is one of the central planks and priorities of the EU. If we are in favour of the organisation and want to play a full part why not go all the way and not cherry pick. If we are going to argue that that bit is not in our interest s, what about the proposed army, or the fisheries policy, or the agricultural policy or the foreign policy....do you want to be all in or a bit in?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 20, 2018 19:22:03 GMT
A question for Remainers; It seems that whether we actually Leave the EU is still in the air, perhaps we BRINO, perhaps we exit with no deal(simply proper Brexit , a separate issue to " deals") or perhaps we have a referendum and we decide to stay ( given that it might be on different terms).. .......If we Remain, which presumably that is what you are currently arguing for, what is so wrong with joining the Euro which is one of the central planks and priorities of the EU. If we are in favour of the organisation and want to play a full part why not go all the way and not cherry pick. If we are going to argue that that bit is not in our interest s, what about the proposed army, or the fisheries policy, or the agricultural policy or the foreign policy....do you want to be all in or a bit in? This one's for Rip! 😁 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 19:27:22 GMT
I'm not sure that there would be a new Referendum because of that very reason , agreeing on the question... but also the risk that Remain might actually lose.... that would really mean BREXIT , a risk too far. Perhaps the strategy is to get some sort of BRINO agreed and some years down the line we/ the leaders/our politicians deciding it is now best to rejoin ( fairly easy to do because we weren't out anyway....but the terms might be " worse" or the Euro..,... although if you believe in the project that should be ' better'..…part of closer union). The argument would be that the Referendum was so long ago, things have changed....we are better off in I voted to remain. I lost. If there was another vote, I'd vote to leave. Many reasons for this, but the biggest is I happen to believe in democracy and will follow whatever road it takes us down. Part of me wants it to happen because I believe a new result would be even more emphatic to leave. Very honest Patrick. In my opinion that's how it should be. The Referendum has been scrutinised retrospectively more than any in history. It is the only one that I know about in this country that yhr result of which simply has not been implemented, not accepted and has been followed by a concerted organised campaign involving foreign ( the EU) countries to subvert. I don't think that similar would have happened should Remain have one because to maintain no obvious change requires no action and therefore no opportunity to criticise/ fabricate/ point out any possible ( always dire) implication of change. It's harder to escape than to do absolutely nothing.The fact that Remain is not the status quo but involves ever closer union ( the army) can be ignored....also the fact that we are effectively shutting down our ability to engage with the world on our terms in our interest isn't at the forefront of minds and politics. The end of our Sovereignty and democracy. At least the Referendum has caused many people to think about our relationship to the organisation and has highlighted many of the issues, hopefully things will not be the same again in terms of accountability and scrutiny of the EU ( Absolutely none existent compared to our parliament). The British public will never relate to Brussels. As muchas there is banter/ criticism about London I believe that most English people ( the UK debate is perhaps on going) are proud to have it as our capital and possibly begrudgingly support the Royal family ( I personally have many reservations)......eg the nation coming together for the Armistice. I think that many people actually think as you do Partick but it takes bravery and honesty to look again and change your mind ( it's not about getting it wrong first time but about facing some of the truths in any situation in my opinion ... please correct me if I am wrong/ but no need to add to your original post, it says it all). Of course Leavers may have changed their mind, but I seem to only hear this from Remainers telling me that they have, and I do believe that it is based upon fear. The honourable thing to would be to accept that some people have taken a different point of view |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 20:27:53 GMT
I agree with Portillo
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 20:45:26 GMT
A question for Remainers; It seems that whether we actually Leave the EU is still in the air, perhaps we BRINO, perhaps we exit with no deal(simply proper Brexit , a separate issue to " deals") or perhaps we have a referendum and we decide to stay ( given that it might be on different terms).. .......If we Remain, which presumably that is what you are currently arguing for, what is so wrong with joining the Euro which is one of the central planks and priorities of the EU. If we are in favour of the organisation and want to play a full part why not go all the way and not cherry pick. If we are going to argue that that bit is not in our interest s, what about the proposed army, or the fisheries policy, or the agricultural policy or the foreign policy....do you want to be all in or a bit in? Why not go all the way? Because we never had to - the EU allowed us to cherry pick. Concerning the army, fisheries etc - I'd go along with what we did with the Euro. If it's not in our interests, then don't join. If it is, then join. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 20:54:08 GMT
A question for Remainers; It seems that whether we actually Leave the EU is still in the air, perhaps we BRINO, perhaps we exit with no deal(simply proper Brexit , a separate issue to " deals") or perhaps we have a referendum and we decide to stay ( given that it might be on different terms).. .......If we Remain, which presumably that is what you are currently arguing for, what is so wrong with joining the Euro which is one of the central planks and priorities of the EU. If we are in favour of the organisation and want to play a full part why not go all the way and not cherry pick. If we are going to argue that that bit is not in our interest s, what about the proposed army, or the fisheries policy, or the agricultural policy or the foreign policy....do you want to be all in or a bit in? Why not go all the way? Because we never had to - the EU allowed us to cherry pick. Concerning the army, fisheries etc - I'd go along with what we did with the Euro. If it's not in our interests, then don't join. If it is, then join. I know that they allowed us ( that's good of them)..... why is it not in our interest?...No need to go to the trouble of changing and rechanging currency...some people tried to make alot of roaming charges for phones or queues at borders.... changing money is arguably more inconvenient. So the Common fisheries policy and common Agricultural policy are in our interest?...we have ' joined' them It's a ridiculous argument to say we can join this bit and not that....it's a Union, that's the point of it. We are in a different scenario now in any case |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 21:33:25 GMT
Why not go all the way? Because we never had to - the EU allowed us to cherry pick. Concerning the army, fisheries etc - I'd go along with what we did with the Euro. If it's not in our interests, then don't join. If it is, then join. I know that they allowed us ( that's good of them)..... why is it not in our interest?...No need to go to the trouble of changing and rechanging currency...some people tried to make alot of roaming charges for phones or queues at borders.... changing money is arguably more inconvenient. So the Common fisheries policy and common Agricultural policy are in our interest?...we have ' joined' them It's a ridiculous argument to say we can join this bit and not that....it's a Union, that's the point of it. We are in a different scenario now in any case Clearly a democratically-elected leader has decided the Common Fisheries policy and Common Agricultural policy were in our interests, but the Euro wasn't. Generally I agree with them on the latter, and I don't know enough about the former to really comment. I know the fishing industry makes up a very small percentage of our economy, so unfortunately for the people that work in the sector it isn't particularly high on the priority list of any politician in any negotiations with the EU. As I said, not nice for those in the industry but that's the tough world of politics/economics. Why is it a ridiculous argument to allow some countries to pick and choose? The opposite would be to force all of the EU's policies on every member - would you be in favour of an EU that does that? That wouldn't seem fair to me. You're right, we are in a different scenario - one that involves exiting the European Union, so I'm not entirely sure whether wanting to be "all in" or "a bit in" is really relevant. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 21:56:25 GMT
I know that they allowed us ( that's good of them)..... why is it not in our interest?...No need to go to the trouble of changing and rechanging currency...some people tried to make alot of roaming charges for phones or queues at borders.... changing money is arguably more inconvenient. So the Common fisheries policy and common Agricultural policy are in our interest?...we have ' joined' them It's a ridiculous argument to say we can join this bit and not that....it's a Union, that's the point of it. We are in a different scenario now in any case Clearly a democratically-elected leader has decided the Common Fisheries policy and Common Agricultural policy were in our interests, but the Euro wasn't. Generally I agree with them on the latter, and I don't know enough about the former to really comment. I know the fishing industry makes up a very small percentage of our economy, so unfortunately for the people that work in the sector it isn't particularly high on the priority list of any politician in any negotiations with the EU. As I said, not nice for those in the industry but that's the tough world of politics/economics. Why is it a ridiculous argument to allow some countries to pick and choose? The opposite would be to force all of the EU's policies on every member - would you be in favour of an EU that does that? That wouldn't seem fair to me. You're right, we are in a different scenario - one that involves exiting the European Union, so I'm not entirely sure whether wanting to be "all in" or "a bit in" is really relevant. I'm not in favour of the EU for the UK per se. The fishing industry is very important to us. Every job counts and we should make those decisions for ourselves....that's a fundamental part of being autonomous, being human. Your last sentence rather than being irrelevant is exactly what the debate is about....you clearly favour cherry picking ( as far as the EU allows us)..... Presumably you are against the EU army? www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/videos/501366487010025/www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/13/merkel-joins-macron-in-calling-for-a-real-true-european-army |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 22:00:23 GMT
Clearly a democratically-elected leader has decided the Common Fisheries policy and Common Agricultural policy were in our interests, but the Euro wasn't. Generally I agree with them on the latter, and I don't know enough about the former to really comment. I know the fishing industry makes up a very small percentage of our economy, so unfortunately for the people that work in the sector it isn't particularly high on the priority list of any politician in any negotiations with the EU. As I said, not nice for those in the industry but that's the tough world of politics/economics. Why is it a ridiculous argument to allow some countries to pick and choose? The opposite would be to force all of the EU's policies on every member - would you be in favour of an EU that does that? That wouldn't seem fair to me. You're right, we are in a different scenario - one that involves exiting the European Union, so I'm not entirely sure whether wanting to be "all in" or "a bit in" is really relevant. I'm not in favour of the EU for the UK per se. The fishing industry is very important to us. Every job counts and we should make those decisions for ourselves....that's a fundamental part of being autonomous, being human. Your last sentence rather than being irrelevant is exactly what the debate is about....you clearly favour cherry picking ( as far as the EU allows us)..... Presumably you are against the EU army? www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/videos/501366487010025/www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/13/merkel-joins-macron-in-calling-for-a-real-true-european-armyI'd need to see more details about an EU army before having an opinion - I'm not going to base an opinion on a few soundbites that have no real plans behind them. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 22:04:20 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 22:08:34 GMT
Some people on the EE board used to argue that the EU gives us more Sovereignty....this EU thing isn't what we want it to be , it is what it is and intends to be. The French and German s agree that there should be a European Empire...........( whose the Emperor/ Empress?) ......... Europe has a choice: nationalism or sovereignty. France chooses sovereignty, and I’ll go even further: I think Europe has to become an empire again; a “peaceful empire” in the words of Tocqueville, but an empire nonetheless. Between the American empire and the Chinese empire, Europe must assert itself as a peaceful empire. uk.ambafrance.org/Europe-must-become-a-peaceful-empire-says-MinisterGuy wants less Sovereignty resting in the UK and more for him, Brussels and Germany. Power. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 22:12:38 GMT
They are soundbites - they are a politicians words. Has there been any outline of how the EU Army will work? Any documentation, costings, plans? I think the direction of travel of the EU will be quite snail-like for the next few years - there's too many populist, anti-EU MEPs in there at the moment to make any many revolutionary changes. For all the pro-European Guy Verhofstadt's and Macron's, there's also a wave of anti-EU MEPs who can halt or slow down progress. If I spent my time watching the speeches from Merkel, Macron etc I'd probably assume the EU were adding a battalion a day to their already established army - luckily I don't, so I know it's not the case. I know I'm at risk of repeating myself - but why are we talking about the positives and negatives of the EU when we're less than six months away from leaving it? Shouldn't we be talking about the future direction of the UK? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 22:16:11 GMT
They are soundbites - they are a politicians words. Has there been any outline of how the EU Army will work? Any documentation, costings, plans? I think the direction of travel of the EU will be quite snail-like for the next few years - there's too many populist, anti-EU MEPs in there at the moment to make any many revolutionary changes. For all the pro-European Guy Verhofstadt's and Macron's, there's also a wave of anti-EU MEPs who can halt or slow down progress. If I spent my time watching the speeches from Merkel, Macron etc I'd probably assume the EU were adding a battalion a day to their already established army - luckily I don't, so I know it's not the case. I know I'm at risk of repeating myself - but why are we talking about the positives and negatives of the EU when we're less than six months away from leaving it? Shouldn't we be talking about the future direction of the UK? They are not just soundbites they are the intended direction of Ever Closer Union...it's not just a game , they are deadly serious. It is about the future direction of the UK because some who cannot accept the Referendum result still hope to ignore and reverse the decision |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 22:24:31 GMT
Sums it up.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 22:42:17 GMT
They are soundbites - they are a politicians words. Has there been any outline of how the EU Army will work? Any documentation, costings, plans? I think the direction of travel of the EU will be quite snail-like for the next few years - there's too many populist, anti-EU MEPs in there at the moment to make any many revolutionary changes. For all the pro-European Guy Verhofstadt's and Macron's, there's also a wave of anti-EU MEPs who can halt or slow down progress. If I spent my time watching the speeches from Merkel, Macron etc I'd probably assume the EU were adding a battalion a day to their already established army - luckily I don't, so I know it's not the case. I know I'm at risk of repeating myself - but why are we talking about the positives and negatives of the EU when we're less than six months away from leaving it? Shouldn't we be talking about the future direction of the UK? They are not just soundbites they are the intended direction of Ever Closer Union...it's not just a game , they are deadly serious. It is about the future direction of the UK because some who cannot accept the Referendum result still hope to ignore and reverse the decision At this point in time they are soundbites - in the future, who knows. But for now there are no concrete plans for an EU army, only people talking and making grand gestures that may amount to diddly squat (or may not, who knows). I would've thought you'd realised that not everything a politician says comes true. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 22:52:11 GMT
They are not just soundbites they are the intended direction of Ever Closer Union...it's not just a game , they are deadly serious. It is about the future direction of the UK because some who cannot accept the Referendum result still hope to ignore and reverse the decision At this point in time they are soundbites - in the future, who knows. But for now there are no concrete plans for an EU army, only people talking and making grand gestures that may amount to diddly squat (or may not, who knows). I would've thought you'd realised that not everything a politician says comes true. They are much more than soundbites. Merkel ( leaving aside, Juncker, Macron and Guy Verhostadt) was talking at the EU Parliament precisely about the future of the EU. You can't just pick and choose what is important....it's ridiculous to say that this is not important....it's a clear intention, no doubt about it. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 23:02:34 GMT
At this point in time they are soundbites - in the future, who knows. But for now there are no concrete plans for an EU army, only people talking and making grand gestures that may amount to diddly squat (or may not, who knows). I would've thought you'd realised that not everything a politician says comes true. They are much more than soundbites. Merkel ( leaving aside, Juncker, Macron and Guy Verhostadt) was talking at the EU Parliament precisely about the future of the EU. You can't just pick and choose what is important....it's ridiculous to say that this is not important....it's a clear intention, no doubt about it. If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 23:12:23 GMT
They are much more than soundbites. Merkel ( leaving aside, Juncker, Macron and Guy Verhostadt) was talking at the EU Parliament precisely about the future of the EU. You can't just pick and choose what is important....it's ridiculous to say that this is not important....it's a clear intention, no doubt about it. If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. I don't necessarily believe everything that anyone says. But the Idea of EU army has been proposed and supported by applause in the EU parliament. That's a fact. Most Remainers seem to deny ever closer union even though the evidence is there from the past 40:years and it is in all the treaties. Already comatose I'd say |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2018 23:15:47 GMT
A right winger and A left wing meme pointing out the obvious about the centralisation of power and democracy.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 20, 2018 23:30:18 GMT
If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. I don't necessarily believe everything that anyone says. But the Idea of EU army has been proposed and supported by applause in the EU parliament. That's a fact. Most Remainers seem to deny ever closer union even though the evidence is there from the past 40:years and it is in all the treaties. Already comatose I'd say Some Leavers think we'll still be in the EU after we've left the EU. There'd be more sense from someone who is comatose. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 1:22:14 GMT
If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. I don't necessarily believe everything that anyone says. But the Idea of EU army has been proposed and supported by applause in the EU parliament. That's a fact. Most Remainers seem to deny ever closer union even though the evidence is there from the past 40:years and it is in all the treaties. Already comatose I'd say Perhaps they want it? Some young people, in particular, class themselves as European, not British and European. Personally, I find it strange that people in Europe are so willing to back such a German dominated enterprise, which is opposed to the two countries that helped free them in the Second World War. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 21, 2018 1:32:35 GMT
A right winger and A left wing meme pointing out the obvious about the centralisation of power and democracy. : Yet some Labour supporters seem completely happy to see Corbyn, a big supporter of Benn, taking a diametrically opposite stance to him. A stance he supported most of his political career. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 6:47:39 GMT
They are much more than soundbites. Merkel ( leaving aside, Juncker, Macron and Guy Verhostadt) was talking at the EU Parliament precisely about the future of the EU. You can't just pick and choose what is important....it's ridiculous to say that this is not important....it's a clear intention, no doubt about it. If you want to believe everything Merkel, Marcron, Juncker and Verhofstadt say, knock yourself out. Personally I wouldn't trust anything a politician says and will wait for some concrete proposals before making a judgement. The point about the army is simply that it clearly indicates ( yet again) how the EU leaders think about the EU......... countries usually have their own armies, a bit like currencies...vital ingredients for power and control. Alongside what is actually said in EU treaties and other papers/ policies and the evidence of distance travelled in comparison to where the Common Market was 40 years ago, 30, 15, 5 should suggest even to you that its about ever closer union towards a United States of Europe. .... with centralised unelected unchallengeable controllers |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 21, 2018 6:48:25 GMT
I don't necessarily believe everything that anyone says. But the Idea of EU army has been proposed and supported by applause in the EU parliament. That's a fact. Most Remainers seem to deny ever closer union even though the evidence is there from the past 40:years and it is in all the treaties. Already comatose I'd say Some Leavers think we'll still be in the EU after we've left the EU. There'd be more sense from someone who is comatose. Do you believe everything you are told or read by your masters? Or just select what you want to believe to suit your fantasy EU. Even the greatest Labour leader since the Atlee government , a keen Remainer, sees through " the deal". Frim the link below........... But he said: “Nothing can disguise the nature of the deal she has chosen, if reports of it are true. “This deal isn’t a compromise, it’s a capitulation. “The withdrawal agreement will keep us tied to EU trade policy until there is an end established by ‘joint consent’ – in other words, the EU has a veto. www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/14/blair-condemns-pms-brexit-deal-as-capitulation-to-eu/Mind you, you seem willing to be deceived as long as the deception looks like it supports your argument.We've caved in...... The elaborate camouflage seems to have misled you, because you want it to......... unless you believe May of course. |
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