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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 17, 2018 12:53:43 GMT
Morning Ladies. Now listen. I'm in a bad mood today. I was supposed to be on a brewery tour today but I missed the bastard coach. So you can fuck off for a start Huddy. Did you understand what time the coach was leaving? Well to ironically paraphrase Mr Clegg I knew the destination but obviously not the departure. |
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Post by yeokel on Nov 17, 2018 12:54:23 GMT
I've had s look, I can't find anything.I can find something about giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish... would you be so kind to remind me( perhaps cut and paste). Just not sure what Remainers now want?....I'm not asking what you think will happen, but what you want. Just because I disagree with the typical stance of a Brexiteer that doesn't make me a remainer to be clear... I'm also not on the fence. I see and accept arguments on both side. As a proud socialist I'm gutted that the argument is largely about immigration. I voted remain largely for political reasons because against popular belief it is entirely political. The reason we had the vote was entirely political too and I believe the outcome was entirely political because neo liberalism has spat on the masses for years thanks to Thatcher, Major and Blair through to Cameron/May. I also accept that the EU are also architects in that. I love the idea of leaving, centralised governance and policy making, on the other hand I also love freedom of movement. I don't love the freedom of trade though but under this government I fear it will be exasperated. He's not my hero. I don't think he's the saviour or perfect but I genuinely believe that Labour under the vegan could have made a success (in comparison to this government) of Brexit but I knew they wouldn't have been able to get the chance. So unfortunately I've accepted defeat in what I want and hope that we remain as we are which is also what I have always though would happen. To conclude, under a different government I feel we can see the required change we need within the EU and build towards a great departure, just not today. I don't trust the tory cunts to do what is in the national interest because the national interest isn't theirs. That's the only reason why I'm labelled as a remainer... I don't agree with everything you post and I don't agree with some of the above. But I want to say (in a non patronising way) that that is one of the most eloquent posts from a 'leftie' that I've ever read on this message board. Good post! (Although a little more white space would be welcome)  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 12:55:01 GMT
Ok M , got it thanks, Ideally you would like to see us Remain (as pre-Referendum) and then to negotiate something better/ change. In the longer/ medium term what would you like to change? I want us to get our house in order before we try and uptick to a different town as such. So in respect of the EU, don't do anything, Remain and go with the flow, until we've sorted ourselves out. Do you think that we will ever sort ourselves out? If we did sort ourselves out, what sort of relationship would you like to see with the EU? |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 17, 2018 13:11:15 GMT
Some Saturday reality for all you remoanbags
We could only extend A50 by about 7 weeks. The MEP elections are on the 23rd May and unless we're through the A50 process and legally into the next phase then technically the UK MEP's can and probably would stand for election. Too messy.
A second referendum would take about minimum 24 weeks following the legislative and legal requirements to organise one. So that puts the earliest date from today as the 4th May. Well after the A50 Brexit date where we'd already be signed into the next stage or out on WTO.
You're welcome.
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 13:14:42 GMT
I want us to get our house in order before we try and uptick to a different town as such. So in respect of the EU, don't do anything, Remain and go with the flow, until we've sorted ourselves out. Do you think that we will ever sort ourselves out? If we did sort ourselves out, what sort of relationship would you like to see with the EU? Everything and anything is possible. I could wake up next to a worldly tomorrow or my mate Matt... In the lead up to the last GE I saw momentum growing (not the group) and even though the polls kept telling me otherwise I felt change was possible. The polls were proved to be the arbitrary numbers I thought and I genuinely feel that there will be a change of government next time. I think the Tories know that too which is why they are backtracking on the savage cuts front to try and soften voters running enmasse to Labour. That's why I don't anticipate another GE because of what's happening now, nevermind a different PM because they don't want to make the same mistake again like last year... Preston is interesting reading at the moment. So are countries like Canada and large chunks of Scandinavia where they're all largely e. Plotting tactics that Laboyr want to employ. So yes I think we can. With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed). My outlook is I'm in the process of launching my own business. I won't go in to the specifics because I don't want to sell to people on a message board but my procurement strategy is where possible local. The staff will be local. The majority of the profits will actually be given away to local charities (not all obviously I want financial freedom myself) and also as I would hope the business scales the profits will get shared with local start up businesses. They say charity starts at home, and I think business should too. It's a risk. Might work well might not but I'm inclined yo believe that if price and quality are close people are more inclined to spend it locally. I feel that is the type of change this country needs on a large scale. It may or may not but it definitely won't if people don't try. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 13:18:23 GMT
So in respect of the EU, don't do anything, Remain and go with the flow, until we've sorted ourselves out. Do you think that we will ever sort ourselves out? If we did sort ourselves out, what sort of relationship would you like to see with the EU? Everything and anything is possible. I could wake up next to a worldly tomorrow or my mate Matt... In the lead up to the last GE I saw momentum growing (not the group) and even though the polls kept telling me otherwise I felt change was possible. The polls were proved to be the arbitrary numbers I thought and I genuinely feel that there will be a change of government next time. I think the Tories know that too which is why they are backtracking on the savage cuts front to try and soften voters running enmasse to Labour. That's why I don't anticipate another GE because of what's happening now, nevermind a different PM because they don't want to make the same mistake again like last year... Preston is interesting reading at the moment. So are countries like Canada and large chunks of Scandinavia where they're all largely e. Plotting tactics that Laboyr want to employ. So yes I think we can. With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed). My outlook is I'm in the process of launching my own business. I won't go in to the specifics because I don't want to sell to people on a message board but my procurement strategy is where possible local. The staff will be local. The majority of the profits will actually be given away to local charities (not all obviously I want financial freedom myself) and also as I would hope the business scales the profits will get shared with local start up businesses. They say charity starts at home, and I think business should too. It's a risk. Might work well might not but I'm inclined yo believe that if price and quality are close people are more inclined to spend it locally. I feel that is the type of change this country needs on a large scale. It may or may not but it definitely won't if people don't try. Thanks M ' With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed)'... cooperation...O agree with you there....does it extend to a European Army, Single currency and free movement, jurisdiction of the EU court?....I'm not asking you what you think would happen, but what you would like to see. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 13:23:21 GMT
Everything and anything is possible. I could wake up next to a worldly tomorrow or my mate Matt... In the lead up to the last GE I saw momentum growing (not the group) and even though the polls kept telling me otherwise I felt change was possible. The polls were proved to be the arbitrary numbers I thought and I genuinely feel that there will be a change of government next time. I think the Tories know that too which is why they are backtracking on the savage cuts front to try and soften voters running enmasse to Labour. That's why I don't anticipate another GE because of what's happening now, nevermind a different PM because they don't want to make the same mistake again like last year... Preston is interesting reading at the moment. So are countries like Canada and large chunks of Scandinavia where they're all largely e. Plotting tactics that Laboyr want to employ. So yes I think we can. With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed). My outlook is I'm in the process of launching my own business. I won't go in to the specifics because I don't want to sell to people on a message board but my procurement strategy is where possible local. The staff will be local. The majority of the profits will actually be given away to local charities (not all obviously I want financial freedom myself) and also as I would hope the business scales the profits will get shared with local start up businesses. They say charity starts at home, and I think business should too. It's a risk. Might work well might not but I'm inclined yo believe that if price and quality are close people are more inclined to spend it locally. I feel that is the type of change this country needs on a large scale. It may or may not but it definitely won't if people don't try. Thanks M ' With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed)'... cooperation...O agree with you there....does it extend to a European Army, Single currency and free movement, jurisdiction of the EU court?....I'm not asking you what you think would happen, but what you would like to see. I'm an ex serviceman. Granted I was only in for the minimal service required but I have a positive feeling towards our boys and girls. I would rather they are used for peacekeeping though. Not war mongering. I don't feel the world is as dangerous as the media makes out (I also don't think its all sunshine and happiness). I think it's fine as it is. So is NATO. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 13:36:44 GMT
Thanks M ' With the EU I'd like the relationship to be a out cooperation around social aspects like education, health and skills (low or high skills as all are needed)'... cooperation...O agree with you there....does it extend to a European Army, Single currency and free movement, jurisdiction of the EU court?....I'm not asking you what you think would happen, but what you would like to see. I'm an ex serviceman. Granted I was only in for the minimal service required but I have a positive feeling towards our boys and girls. I would rather they are used for peacekeeping though. Not war mongering. I don't feel the world is as dangerous as the media makes out (I also don't think its all sunshine and happiness). I think it's fine as it is. So is NATO. We agree on that then ...No army.... what would you want if it transpired that having the army was part of ' being in '... |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 13:45:11 GMT
I'm an ex serviceman. Granted I was only in for the minimal service required but I have a positive feeling towards our boys and girls. I would rather they are used for peacekeeping though. Not war mongering. I don't feel the world is as dangerous as the media makes out (I also don't think its all sunshine and happiness). I think it's fine as it is. So is NATO. We agree on that then ...No army.... what would you want if it transpired that having the army was part of ' being in '... It's a big If. I would expect us to veto it. That said. Things change. Anything can happen in the future. If we were to strive for a period of bilateral peace if that is ever possible it might become a sensible approach but I don't think for a second we are that that point right now... |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 13:49:34 GMT
We agree on that then ...No army.... what would you want if it transpired that having the army was part of ' being in '... It's a big If. I would expect us to veto it. That said. Things change. Anything can happen in the future. If we were to strive for a period of bilateral peace if that is ever possible it might become a sensible approach but I don't think for a second we are that that point right now... I'm not sure that we could veto it , if we were truly IN. Why should we, if we are in the club we should abide by the rules. It must concern you a bit that the powers within the EU have suggested that'we' need an army, with no opposition |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 13:54:54 GMT
It's a big If. I would expect us to veto it. That said. Things change. Anything can happen in the future. If we were to strive for a period of bilateral peace if that is ever possible it might become a sensible approach but I don't think for a second we are that that point right now... I'm not sure that we could veto it , if we were truly IN. Why should we, if we are in the club we should abide by the rules. It must concern you a bit that the powers within the EU have suggested that'we' need an army, with no opposition It concerns me more that we will happily sell Saudi arms knowing where they end up. Without coming across as trying to avoid talking about it, it just isn't central to my thoughts right now. If it becomes a mandatory point we will have to deal with it. It's not enough for me to justify leaving under all costs just for right now. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 13:55:12 GMT
We agree on that then ...No army.... what would you want if it transpired that having the army was part of ' being in '... It's a big If. I would expect us to veto it. That said. Things change. Anything can happen in the future. If we were to strive for a period of bilateral peace if that is ever possible it might become a sensible approach but I don't think for a second we are that that point right now... Also M it's made me wonder how the ordinary citizen influence s policy/ gets their voice heard on issues such as an army.......seems to me that it has come from the centre downwards, driven by the ideology of ever closer union....not from the people |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 13:55:57 GMT
I'm not sure that we could veto it , if we were truly IN. Why should we, if we are in the club we should abide by the rules. It must concern you a bit that the powers within the EU have suggested that'we' need an army, with no opposition It concerns me more that we will happily sell Saudi arms knowing where they end up. Without coming across as trying to avoid talking about it, it just isn't central to my thoughts right now. If it becomes a mandatory point we will have to deal with it. It's not enough for me to justify leaving under all costs just for right now. I agree about Saudi Arabia. Not much morality in politics ( or business?).....bit of a generalisation that |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 17, 2018 13:56:43 GMT
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 13:57:19 GMT
Morning Ladies. Now listen. I'm in a bad mood. I was supposed to be on a brewery tour today but I missed the bastard coach. So you can fuck off for a start Huddy. In this week of all weeks, it's most surprising to see a Tory fail to organise a piss up to a brewery.  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 14:04:33 GMT
So what exactly is that...May's deal? No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. Would that keep us out of the proposed EU army and would it include the £39b contribution and on going contribution? Presumably we could make our own separate trade deals with other free sovereign countries but , as above, no control of borders? What do you think? |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 14:08:51 GMT
It's a big If. I would expect us to veto it. That said. Things change. Anything can happen in the future. If we were to strive for a period of bilateral peace if that is ever possible it might become a sensible approach but I don't think for a second we are that that point right now... Also M it's made me wonder how the ordinary citizen influence s policy/ gets their voice heard on issues such as an army.......seems to me that it has come from the centre downwards, driven by the ideology of ever closer union....not from the people You could say something similar about Pete the plumber from Penkhull though and how he can't compete against Plumforce because he possibly pays more tax than them... The system is broke and the little boy/girl is largely voiceless... |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 14:14:11 GMT
No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. Would that keep us out of the proposed EU army and would it include the £39b contribution and on going contribution? Presumably we could make our own separate trade deals with other free sovereign countries but , as above, no control of borders? What do you think? That would have to be negotiated, or laid in a white paper as I proposed. At the moment it's a hypothetical soft Brexit in a hypothetical referendum - so it's not exactly easy to say whether we would join a hypothetical EU Army. I don't see a point where we a non-EU member would be forced to join an EU Army, to be honest. Maybe they could join if they wanted, but it would be difficult to force them to join. That is of course if the EU Army is ever created. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 14:14:57 GMT
Also M it's made me wonder how the ordinary citizen influence s policy/ gets their voice heard on issues such as an army.......seems to me that it has come from the centre downwards, driven by the ideology of ever closer union....not from the people You could say something similar about Pete the plumber from Penkhull though and how he can't compete against Plumforce because he possibly pays more tax than them... The system is broke and the little boy/girl is largely voiceless... You could, but it is possible . There is s mechanism through constituency MPs, other lobbying, protests. Also we are talking solely about the EU here, just because our system isn't perfect that does not make it a good idea to buy into another one, on top of that.,we don't need two, do we? There's no way of challenging ever closer union... Because that's what the organisation is about.IIRC MEPs are required to agree not to criticise the EU, and to swear allegaliance to the EU , not soverign nations. It's not designed to be democratic , but the bureacratic implementation of a belief. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 14:18:37 GMT
You could say something similar about Pete the plumber from Penkhull though and how he can't compete against Plumforce because he possibly pays more tax than them... The system is broke and the little boy/girl is largely voiceless... You could, but it is possible . There is s mechanism through constituency MPs, other lobbying, protests. Also we are talking solely about the EU here, just because our system isn't perfect that does not make it a good idea to buy into another one, on top of that.,we don't need two, do we? There's no way of challenging ever closer union... Because that's what the organisation is about.IIRC MEPs are required to agree not to criticise the EU, and to swear allegaliance to the EU , not soverign nations. It's not designed to be democratic , but the bureacratic implementation of a belief. So Nigel Farage agreed not to criticise the EU and pledged his allegiance to the EU? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 14:31:40 GMT
You could, but it is possible . There is s mechanism through constituency MPs, other lobbying, protests. Also we are talking solely about the EU here, just because our system isn't perfect that does not make it a good idea to buy into another one, on top of that.,we don't need two, do we? There's no way of challenging ever closer union... Because that's what the organisation is about.IIRC MEPs are required to agree not to criticise the EU, and to swear allegaliance to the EU , not soverign nations. It's not designed to be democratic , but the bureacratic implementation of a belief. So Nigel Farage agreed not to criticise the EU and pledged his allegiance to the EU? I said iirc, I'll look it up and get back to you. The second part of what I said is certainly true, their pledged allegiance I'd to the EU, not soverign nations. Any thoughts on my question to you from above, or have you taken over this particular argument from M |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 14:33:41 GMT
So Nigel Farage agreed not to criticise the EU and pledged his allegiance to the EU? I said iirc, I'll look it up and get back to you. The second part of what I said is certainly true, their pledged allegiance I'd to the EU, not soverign nations. Any thoughts on my question to you from above, or have you taken over this particular argument from M I've answered you above. I'll post here as well for convenience: "That would have to be negotiated, or laid in a white paper as I proposed. At the moment it's a hypothetical soft Brexit in a hypothetical referendum - so it's not exactly easy to say whether we would join a hypothetical EU Army. I don't see a point where we a non-EU member would be forced to join an EU Army, to be honest. Maybe they could join if they wanted, but it would be difficult to force them to join. That is of course if the EU Army is ever created." |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 14:36:55 GMT
You could, but it is possible . There is s mechanism through constituency MPs, other lobbying, protests. Also we are talking solely about the EU here, just because our system isn't perfect that does not make it a good idea to buy into another one, on top of that.,we don't need two, do we? There's no way of challenging ever closer union... Because that's what the organisation is about.IIRC MEPs are required to agree not to criticise the EU, and to swear allegaliance to the EU , not soverign nations. It's not designed to be democratic , but the bureacratic implementation of a belief. So Nigel Farage agreed not to criticise the EU and pledged his allegiance to the EU? Here's s quick bit about the second part of what I said Janice Atkinson, a former Ukip MEP who now sits as an independent, led the attacks saying she was “deeply disturbed” that Sir Julian would not be working for 65m British people but swearing an oath of allegiance to Europe and its Commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/britains-new-eu-commissioner-must-pledge-allegiance-to-europe-wh/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/18/meps-censor-anti-eu-cartoons-european-parliament-exhibition/amp/ |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 14:38:47 GMT
I said iirc, I'll look it up and get back to you. The second part of what I said is certainly true, their pledged allegiance I'd to the EU, not soverign nations. Any thoughts on my question to you from above, or have you taken over this particular argument from M I've answered you above. I'll post here as well for convenience: "That would have to be negotiated, or laid in a white paper as I proposed. At the moment it's a hypothetical soft Brexit in a hypothetical referendum - so it's not exactly easy to say whether we would join a hypothetical EU Army. I don't see a point where we a non-EU member would be forced to join an EU Army, to be honest. Maybe they could join if they wanted, but it would be difficult to force them to join. That is of course if the EU Army is ever created." So your position is that we should negotiate s relationship with the EU? I am asking what you would like to see at the end of the negotiation,? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 14:48:16 GMT
I've answered you above. I'll post here as well for convenience: "That would have to be negotiated, or laid in a white paper as I proposed. At the moment it's a hypothetical soft Brexit in a hypothetical referendum - so it's not exactly easy to say whether we would join a hypothetical EU Army. I don't see a point where we a non-EU member would be forced to join an EU Army, to be honest. Maybe they could join if they wanted, but it would be difficult to force them to join. That is of course if the EU Army is ever created." So your position is that we should negotiate s relationship with the EU? I am asking what you would like to see at the end of the negotiation,? My position is we should have a referendum on May's deal, and if it is a rejection then we should have a referendum between hard and soft Brexit. Although it will be impossible to completely know all the details of what "hard" and "soft" should mean, there should be clear, detailed documents produced that give a decent outline on what a future arrangement should look like in each circumstance. If that referendum were to happen, I would almost certainly vote for a soft Brexit assuming it was outlined that this means a close relationship with the EU (which is what I think most people think of when they think of soft Brexit). I would vote this way because I believe that is the best path for the country. Is that clear? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 14:51:54 GMT
Right, not that surprising that people elected to sit in a European Parliament pledge allegiance to Europe is it? A bit like English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish politicians pledging allegiance to Britain and not their individual countries. What about your second part, btw? Any evidence to suggest MEPs are not allowed to criticise the EU? I'm sure one of the many videos posted on here of Farage roasting the EU inside the EU Parliament is decent evidence to the contrary. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 15:11:31 GMT
So your position is that we should negotiate s relationship with the EU? I am asking what you would like to see at the end of the negotiation,? My position is we should have a referendum on May's deal, and if it is a rejection then we should have a referendum between hard and soft Brexit. Although it will be impossible to completely know all the details of what "hard" and "soft" should mean, there should be clear, detailed documents produced that give a decent outline on what a future arrangement should look like in each circumstance. If that referendum were to happen, I would almost certainly vote for a soft Brexit assuming it was outlined that this means a close relationship with the EU (which is what I think most people think of when they think of soft Brexit). I would vote this way because I believe that is the best path for the country. Is that clear? Not really Rip...I understand what a hard Brexit is but I am very unsure what Remainers now want. A "soft"Brexit doesn't mean alot in terms of the Referendum question...it wasn't mentioned before the Referendum , only since to undermine the decision. Does YOUR ideal OUTCOME now include, jurisdiction of the EU court, Free movement of people, the £39 b bill, the common agricultural, fishing policy, the proposed European Army, Political and Economic union etc....as a Brexiteer I know my position on those ( of course every detail of TRADE is not known , but a " deal" ) trade agreement is a different issue. I'm just wondering what Remainers now want. What's the vusion? Political and economic union OR a sovereign UK? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 15:12:20 GMT
Right, not that surprising that people elected to sit in a European Parliament pledge allegiance to Europe is it? A bit like English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish politicians pledging allegiance to Britain and not their individual countries. What about your second part, btw? Any evidence to suggest MEPs are not allowed to criticise the EU? I'm sure one of the many videos posted on here of Farage roasting the EU inside the EU Parliament is decent evidence to the contrary. It's not allegiance to Europe but the institution and its aims of Ever Closer Union. The links do show banned cartoons I did say that I will come back to the second part and I will. I did say iirc so I will have to look into it....not for a bit though , just about y go into the North Staffs , to visit someone who is terminally ill...which I guess outs life in perspective. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 17, 2018 15:15:18 GMT
Morning Ladies. Now listen. I'm in a bad mood. I was supposed to be on a brewery tour today but I missed the bastard coach. So you can fuck off for a start Huddy. In this week of all weeks, it's most surprising to see a Tory fail to organise a piss up to a brewery. As if. Unfortunately I wasn't doing the organising. I've no doubt some socialist was in charge. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 17, 2018 15:20:14 GMT
So your position is that we should negotiate s relationship with the EU? I am asking what you would like to see at the end of the negotiation,? My position is we should have a referendum on May's deal, and if it is a rejection then we should have a referendum between hard and soft Brexit. Although it will be impossible to completely know all the details of what "hard" and "soft" should mean, there should be clear, detailed documents produced that give a decent outline on what a future arrangement should look like in each circumstance. If that referendum were to happen, I would almost certainly vote for a soft Brexit assuming it was outlined that this means a close relationship with the EU (which is what I think most people think of when they think of soft Brexit). I would vote this way because I believe that is the best path for the country. Is that clear? Can't have referendum on May's deal it's too late. Next unicorn wish? |
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