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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 17, 2018 10:29:22 GMT
I'd be interested to know what Remainers now want. Pragmatically.Not looking to the past. 1 Go back to as we were? ....Remain?.... actually half in half out, opt outs etc.... would the EU " allow" this or would they want a " new arrangement"..the Euro,rebate etc, turn the screw....Or would they be content to know that they have won... Learn your lesson, you are not allowed to leave the EU. 2 May's deal.... worse than Remain? 3. A new deal....brokered by Labour? Again would the EU allow it and what would it be. ...In other words, what do you see as the best outcome......... in the best interests of the UK? A referendum on May's deal, and if that is rejected a referendum on whether the public want a hard or soft Brexit. Given the amount of time wasted, that would probably involve extending the expiry date of Article 50. Not ideal, but if we don't extend it I don't see a decent outcome that has a decent number of British people behind it. The alternative is to take May's shit deal for the transition period, and have a hard/soft Brexit referendum to take into the negotiating period for the future deal. That would not involve extending Article 50, but would involve going forward with May's deeply unpopular deal. I think that's a lot better than the People's Vote idea, Rip. Remain being on the ballot paper doesn't sit right with me. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 10:29:26 GMT
I want a change of domestic political policy and I don't give a flying fig if that's in or out of the EU because I believe the majority of our domestic problems are entirely domestic policy. The UN report released yesterday about the current state of poverty in this country is nothing to do with eu nationals or a supposed eu army. Its entirely to do with our policies by this shit shower of a government. The opposition no great light of amazingness are actually a great bastion of amazingness compared to these shits that have systematically destroyed this country over the last ten years which has largely fed the anti eu rhetoric. What I initially wanted was out in a utopia but not under the tory terms because I know from day one we'd sign up a trade deal with the USA and the next thing I know is those staffordshire oatcakes I love eating will actually be made in tennessee putting loads of staffordshire oatcakes makers out of business whilst also being made from fish guts instead of what they should be (extreme example but that's what I believe would happen with industry over here with decreased standards to match USA competition). I also don't want the NHS carved up any more than it already has been. My position is absolutely no trade deals or the one we've got so I'd rather stick with what we've got based on what is on offer. So to be clear in answer to my question, pragmatically....I think that you are saying that you would like things to be exactly as they were before the Referendum...Still a member ( sort of).....Is that right? Do you think it could happen? Would the EU accept that? I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory... |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 17, 2018 10:34:07 GMT
May won't get this deal through Parliament so the options are;
1) Renegotiate the deal (ie give more concessions to the EU) which would be humiliating.
2) Walk away with No deal
3) Call another Referendum (which May has ruled out)
4) Call a General Election.
Everyone of those options has potentially lethal consequences.
Your choice.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 10:36:42 GMT
A referendum on May's deal, and if that is rejected a referendum on whether the public want a hard or soft Brexit. Given the amount of time wasted, that would probably involve extending the expiry date of Article 50. Not ideal, but if we don't extend it I don't see a decent outcome that has a decent number of British people behind it. The alternative is to take May's shit deal for the transition period, and have a hard/soft Brexit referendum to take into the negotiating period for the future deal. That would not involve extending Article 50, but would involve going forward with May's deeply unpopular deal. So what would YOU want as the ideal outcome following a referendum....the end result, not so much how we get there A soft Brexit would be my ideal outcome of a referendum. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 10:40:52 GMT
So what would YOU want as the ideal outcome following a referendum....the end result, not so much how we get there A soft Brexit would be my ideal outcome of a referendum. So what exactly is that...May's deal? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 10:41:17 GMT
May won't get this deal through Parliament so the options are; 1) Renegotiate the deal (ie give more concessions to the EU) which would be humiliating. 2) Walk away with No deal 3) Call another Referendum (which May has ruled out) 4) Call a General Election. Everyone of those options has potentially lethal consequences. Your choice. 3) 4) 1) 2) In that order, for me. As you say though, none of them are without risks. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 10:42:55 GMT
So to be clear in answer to my question, pragmatically....I think that you are saying that you would like things to be exactly as they were before the Referendum...Still a member ( sort of).....Is that right? Do you think it could happen? Would the EU accept that? I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory... So M you are saying given " we are where we are"... ideally the outcome that you hope for is that eventually we return to how we were before the Referendum? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 10:47:30 GMT
A soft Brexit would be my ideal outcome of a referendum. So what exactly is that...May's deal? No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 17, 2018 11:03:22 GMT
So what exactly is that...May's deal? No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. Including free movement? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 17, 2018 11:04:06 GMT
May won't get this deal through Parliament so the options are; 1) Renegotiate the deal (ie give more concessions to the EU) which would be humiliating. 2) Walk away with No deal 3) Call another Referendum (which May has ruled out) 4) Call a General Election. Everyone of those options has potentially lethal consequences. Your choice. What's your preference? |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 11:08:27 GMT
No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. Including free movement? Yes, I imagine most people's idea of soft Brexit would include freedom of movement. I can't imagine a vision of soft Brexit that doesn't include it to be honest. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 11:10:36 GMT
I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory... So M you are saying given " we are where we are"... ideally the outcome that you hope for is that eventually we return to how we were before the Referendum? That's where I think we will end |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 17, 2018 11:15:31 GMT
Yes, I imagine most people's idea of soft Brexit would include freedom of movement. I can't imagine a vision of soft Brexit that doesn't include it to be honest. I can't vote for that. I don't think many Brexiteers, could, unless it was modified. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 11:28:51 GMT
I think agent May has done everything she can to scupper it and its a case of when and not if it will get canned all together
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 11:36:54 GMT
So M you are saying given " we are where we are"... ideally the outcome that you hope for is that eventually we return to how we were before the Referendum? That's where I think we will end And that is what you want, given we are where we are? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 11:44:44 GMT
May won't get this deal through Parliament so the options are; 1) Renegotiate the deal (ie give more concessions to the EU) which would be humiliating. 2) Walk away with No deal 3) Call another Referendum (which May has ruled out) 4) Call a General Election. Everyone of those options has potentially lethal consequences. Your choice. It should be 2. It's going to be a cap in hand cowardly 1. Or a disastrous wankier alternative borne from 4. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 11:48:23 GMT
That's where I think we will end And that is what you want, given we are where we are? I've told you what I want before but what I want is extremely unlikely. That is what I think will happen. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 11:50:27 GMT
So what exactly is that...May's deal? No, May's deal is only for a transition period. What soft Brexit is can be debatable, but I also reckon in a second referendum we should be voting on white papers that outline in a fairly decent amount of details what a hard and soft Brexit are - like they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Roughly outlined, soft Brexit is like Norway/Switzerland - outside the EU but part of the major companents of the EU. I genuinely don't know,I havent looked into it .....would that keep us out of the proposed EU army and would it include the £39b contribution and on going contribution? Presumably we could make our own separate trade deals with other free sovereign countries but , as above, no control of borders? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 11:54:29 GMT
And that is what you want, given we are where we are? I've told you what I want before but what I want is extremely unlikely. That is what I think will happen. Sorry M I genuinely don't know what you want...I know you said "I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory." ......but I don't think that says what you actually want |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 11:58:05 GMT
I've told you what I want before but what I want is extremely unlikely. That is what I think will happen. Sorry M I genuinely don't know what you want...I know you said "I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory." ......but I don't think that says what you actually want Before that. The post about existing or no trade deals. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 12:06:56 GMT
Sorry M I genuinely don't know what you want...I know you said "I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory." ......but I don't think that says what you actually want Before that. The post about existing or no trade deals. I've had s look, I can't find anything.I can find something about giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish... would you be so kind to remind me( perhaps cut and paste). Just not sure what Remainers now want?....I'm not asking what you think will happen, but what you want. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 12:16:43 GMT
Sorry M I genuinely don't know what you want...I know you said "I do think they would accept it but only on condition of a referendum. I'd also think again it would only be accepted on the condition that another referendum couldn't be held for x amount of time or to see a rewrite of artivle 50... I have nothing to base that on at all but If the country speaks and the country changes its mind I genuinely feel that it would be accepted because after all, they would see it as benefitial because as someone said they would take it as a victory." ......but I don't think that says what you actually want Before that. The post about existing or no trade deals. Apologies M, I think that I've found it... ". My position is absolutely no trade deals or the one we've got so I'd rather stick with what we've got based on what is on offer." Are you saying that ideally you would like to be back as we were before the Referendum? What do you mean " no trade deals"? |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 17, 2018 12:22:36 GMT
I think if we had a second referendum and went back in, it would be like a woman going back to a bad marriage, and the cunt of a husband coming home and putting his keys on the table with a knowing smile.
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Post by yeokel on Nov 17, 2018 12:23:32 GMT
But Farage live on TV hours before the conclusion and a leave supporter who started the petioin said otherwise...... But the consistent message I keep getting told by a small minority of staunchly leave supporters is that everyone knew what they were voting for when talking about leaving the single market etc. Now regardless of me agreeing with that or not, if that statement is true and everyone did know what they were voting for then this deal on offer isn't what was voted for. Just like the general election manifesto of the Tories saying we will leave the single market, this deal again isn't what people voted for. Therefore the question posed wasn't valid so to suggest that anyone can't demand another question is rediculous. A little scenario, you are a family of 5 who spend most evenings together in the lounge watching t.v. which means the seating takes a pounding,to cope with this you buy your suites on a pay monthly plan over five years which is the most they will last. Your choice of suite is functional with no luxury (what you can afford) on your renewal date your salesman offers you a leather,reclining suite with massage built in and all this comes at a lower cost than you normally pay meaning you have money to spare elsewhere,maybe better health care for our family.When renewal date arrives your suite is not leather has no massage facility and in fact looks like a worn out version of your old suite and the salesman informs you it will cost you more money would you not want recourse? To perhaps pick a different offer or stick with your old suite,not perfect but functional and where you have spent many happy days. If that is the level of metaphor that you use in your head, ever-likely you write some of the crap you write.. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Nov 17, 2018 12:27:24 GMT
Yes, I imagine most people's idea of soft Brexit would include freedom of movement. I can't imagine a vision of soft Brexit that doesn't include it to be honest. I can't vote for that. I don't think many Brexiteers, could, unless it was modified. Then you could vote for the hard Brexit option. |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 12:32:39 GMT
Before that. The post about existing or no trade deals. I've had s look, I can't find anything.I can find something about giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish... would you be so kind to remind me( perhaps cut and paste). Just not sure what Remainers now want?....I'm not asking what you think will happen, but what you want. Just because I disagree with the typical stance of a Brexiteer that doesn't make me a remainer to be clear... I'm also not on the fence. I see and accept arguments on both side. As a proud socialist I'm gutted that the argument is largely about immigration. I voted remain largely for political reasons because against popular belief it is entirely political. The reason we had the vote was entirely political too and I believe the outcome was entirely political because neo liberalism has spat on the masses for years thanks to Thatcher, Major and Blair through to Cameron/May. I also accept that the EU are also architects in that. I love the idea of leaving, centralised governance and policy making, on the other hand I also love freedom of movement. I don't love the freedom of trade though but under this government I fear it will be exasperated. He's not my hero. I don't think he's the saviour or perfect but I genuinely believe that Labour under the vegan could have made a success (in comparison to this government) of Brexit but I knew they wouldn't have been able to get the chance. So unfortunately I've accepted defeat in what I want and hope that we remain as we are which is also what I have always though would happen. To conclude, under a different government I feel we can see the required change we need within the EU and build towards a great departure, just not today. I don't trust the tory cunts to do what is in the national interest because the national interest isn't theirs. That's the only reason why I'm labelled as a remainer... |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 17, 2018 12:42:35 GMT
I've had s look, I can't find anything.I can find something about giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish... would you be so kind to remind me( perhaps cut and paste). Just not sure what Remainers now want?....I'm not asking what you think will happen, but what you want. Just because I disagree with the typical stance of a Brexiteer that doesn't make me a remainer to be clear... I'm also not on the fence. I see and accept arguments on both side. As a proud socialist I'm gutted that the argument is largely about immigration. I voted remain largely for political reasons because against popular belief it is entirely political. The reason we had the vote was entirely political too and I believe the outcome was entirely political because neo liberalism has spat on the masses for years thanks to Thatcher, Major and Blair through to Cameron/May. I also accept that the EU are also architects in that. I love the idea of leaving, centralised governance and policy making, on the other hand I also love freedom of movement. I don't love the freedom of trade though but under this government I fear it will be exasperated. He's not my hero. I don't think he's the saviour or perfect but I genuinely believe that Labour under the vegan could have made a success (in comparison to this government) of Brexit but I knew they wouldn't have been able to get the chance. So unfortunately I've accepted defeat in what I want and hope that we remain as we are which is also what I have always though would happen. To conclude, under a different government I feel we can see the required change we need within the EU and build towards a great departure, just not today. I don't trust the tory cunts to do what is in the national interest because the national interest isn't theirs. That's the only reason why I'm labelled as a remainer... Ok M , got it thanks, Ideally you would like to see us Remain (as pre-Referendum) and then to negotiate something better/ change. In the longer/ medium term what would you like to change? |
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Post by M on Nov 17, 2018 12:47:28 GMT
Just because I disagree with the typical stance of a Brexiteer that doesn't make me a remainer to be clear... I'm also not on the fence. I see and accept arguments on both side. As a proud socialist I'm gutted that the argument is largely about immigration. I voted remain largely for political reasons because against popular belief it is entirely political. The reason we had the vote was entirely political too and I believe the outcome was entirely political because neo liberalism has spat on the masses for years thanks to Thatcher, Major and Blair through to Cameron/May. I also accept that the EU are also architects in that. I love the idea of leaving, centralised governance and policy making, on the other hand I also love freedom of movement. I don't love the freedom of trade though but under this government I fear it will be exasperated. He's not my hero. I don't think he's the saviour or perfect but I genuinely believe that Labour under the vegan could have made a success (in comparison to this government) of Brexit but I knew they wouldn't have been able to get the chance. So unfortunately I've accepted defeat in what I want and hope that we remain as we are which is also what I have always though would happen. To conclude, under a different government I feel we can see the required change we need within the EU and build towards a great departure, just not today. I don't trust the tory cunts to do what is in the national interest because the national interest isn't theirs. That's the only reason why I'm labelled as a remainer... Ok M , got it thanks, Ideally you would like to see us Remain (as pre-Referendum) and then to negotiate something better/ change. In the longer/ medium term what would you like to change? I want us to get our house in order before we try and uptick to a different town as such. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 17, 2018 12:49:58 GMT
Morning Ladies.
Now listen. I'm in a bad mood. I was supposed to be on a brewery tour today but I missed the bastard coach.
So you can fuck off for a start Huddy.
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Post by pearo on Nov 17, 2018 12:52:16 GMT
Morning Ladies. Now listen. I'm in a bad mood today. I was supposed to be on a brewery tour today but I missed the bastard coach. So you can fuck off for a start Huddy. Did you understand what time the coach was leaving? |
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