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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2018 19:02:14 GMT
There won’t be an election. There will be a no deal brexit or a second vote. Interesting. What brings you to that conclusion? The tories will want to cling to power above all so won’t call one. Labour cannot force one. Which leaves us in a situation where Corbyn has to decide whether we have a no deal brexit or second vote. If he backs a second referendum then there will be a majority in support of one. May won’t go back on her word and renegotiate with the EU now. She knows she’d only be able to make it softer (I think a Norway deal is the ONLY deal that could get through the commons) but she won’t do that for fear of a no confidence vote. Brexiteers don’t want a no confidence vote as they know they have no better solution than May that the EU will agree to. Also I would like to think at a time of political crisis during one of the most important negotiations in our history, the tories wouldn’t go for a no confidence vote unless it really was a last resort. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 15, 2018 19:03:46 GMT
Interesting. What brings you to that conclusion? Tricky, I think it is the second time I've agreed with Oggy in two years. Because the EU have got a brilliant " deal' I don't think that they will contemplate anything less/ new negotiations. The Tories won't want an election, so for me as we approach March 29 the I think that the struggle will be between the powers that be trying to create / promote absolutely disaster from leaving without a" deal" so much so that there's so much momentum that someone proposes a delay in Article 50 and a referendum as the only way forward ( as you and others have said before, this may have been the plan all along..,. make such a bad deal/ incompetent deal/ chaos that Remain seems preferable or the only option) OR we leave with no deal which will be marketed as a cliff edge/ disaster. It is what I and TDC predicted, yes. And I used to think House of Cards was far fetched. Wasn't disagreeing with oggy, just wondering what his reasoning was. |
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Post by skemstokie on Nov 15, 2018 19:08:38 GMT
Weird times, aren't they? I can't remember such division since the Miner's Strike. If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... The moment Momentum got involved with Labour it went down the pan for me,i agree with Trickydicky that party politics should not matter at a time like this. I truly believe this to be the biggest crisis in my lifetime (68 n.o.) and we need someone to step up to the plate and pull us out of this mess. My choice for Labour would be Starmer,middle of the road views and seems a genuine person to me. |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 15, 2018 19:11:09 GMT
Weird times, aren't they? I can't remember such division since the Miner's Strike. If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2018 19:16:46 GMT
One big difference is this....one exists, the other does not. It was you that used the words "proposed EU army". You're not going to admit it, I know that, but you know as well as I do, and as well as Frau Merkel does that an EU army is on the way and that its construction has already begun as referenced by both rogerjones and myself yesterday. Yes, lots of people have proposed an EU army, to which I was referring. Please point me in the direction of how a person would sign up to this army if they were so inclined. They must have a website and be actively recruiting if it exists. Still unsure why an eu army is a bad thing (other than the same reasons any army can be argued to be a bad thing) or how it is different to nato (and so awful in comparison). |
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Post by skemstokie on Nov 15, 2018 19:16:51 GMT
If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. If i was drowning and Corbyn offered his help i think i would pick drowning  |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 15, 2018 19:17:59 GMT
If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. Exactly. All this bollocks about '6 tests' Ridiculous. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 15, 2018 19:26:09 GMT
If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. I think that people are looking for leadership. I've said many times that Labour have missed a trick. Instead of playing politics and a political game ( bash the Tories) if they had shown decisive leadership in backing Corbyn's genuine stance for BREXIT and been clear and firm about it I think that he/ they would either be in power now or be in prime position. The electorate aren't stupid and the working class in particular are sick of being taken for granted/ having no where to go. If the Labour party had made a positive vision for Brexit I believe that their supporters/ ordinary folk would have got behind them ( instead of going for the FEAR approach). The electorate believe in democracy and Sovereignty and are patriotic ( not a dirty word) far more than politicians give them credit for in my opinion. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 15, 2018 19:40:14 GMT
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 15, 2018 19:40:27 GMT
Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. I think that people are looking for leadership. I've said many times that Labour have missed a trick. Instead of playing politics and a political game ( bash the Tories) if they had shown decisive leadership in backing Corbyn's genuine stance for BREXIT and been clear and firm about it I think that he/ they would either be in power now or be in prime position. The electorate aren't stupid and the working class in particular are sick of being taken for granted/ having no where to go. If the Labour party had made a positive vision for Brexit I believe that their supporters/ ordinary folk would have got behind them ( instead of going for the FEAR approach). The electorate believe in democracy and Sovereignty and are patriotic ( not a dirty word) far more than politicians give them credit for in my opinion. No disrespect John but that wouldn't be possible because Labour, imo, are just as divided as The Tories about Brexit. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 15, 2018 19:41:31 GMT
If Labour had a different leader it might be different but with people like Dianne Abbott and David Lammy, Gareth Smell etc in the party the Tories can fuck things up as much as they like... Even today I saw a poll saying people trusted May more than Corbyn to deliver. I think the margin was 5 points. I know polls are sometimes iffy, but still. Every week in the "who would make the best PM" poll Corbyn comes 3rd in a 2 horse race behind Theresa May and 'don't know'. Every week. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 15, 2018 19:41:50 GMT
I think that people are looking for leadership. I've said many times that Labour have missed a trick. Instead of playing politics and a political game ( bash the Tories) if they had shown decisive leadership in backing Corbyn's genuine stance for BREXIT and been clear and firm about it I think that he/ they would either be in power now or be in prime position. The electorate aren't stupid and the working class in particular are sick of being taken for granted/ having no where to go. If the Labour party had made a positive vision for Brexit I believe that their supporters/ ordinary folk would have got behind them ( instead of going for the FEAR approach). The electorate believe in democracy and Sovereignty and are patriotic ( not a dirty word) far more than politicians give them credit for in my opinion. No disrespect John but that wouldn't be possible because Labour, imo, are just as divided as The Tories about Brexit. Yes you're right. I agree Wizard they definitely are. I just think it is where Labour SHOULD be |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2018 19:45:18 GMT
Interesting. What brings you to that conclusion? Tricky, I think it is the second time I've agreed with Oggy in two years. Because the EU have got a brilliant " deal' I don't think that they will contemplate anything less/ new negotiations. The Tories won't want an election, so for me as we approach March 29 the I think that the struggle will be between the powers that be trying to create / promote absolute disaster from leaving without a" deal" so much so that there's so much momentum that someone proposes a delay in Article 50 and a referendum as the only way forward ( as you and others have said before, this may have been the plan all along..,. make such a bad deal/ incompetent deal/ chaos that Remain seems preferable or the only option) OR we leave with no deal which will be marketed as a cliff edge/ disaster. What was the other thing you agreed with me on? I actually think I agree with a lot of what you say.....just not on Brexit. |
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Post by lordb on Nov 15, 2018 19:49:52 GMT
I think that people are looking for leadership. I've said many times that Labour have missed a trick. Instead of playing politics and a political game ( bash the Tories) if they had shown decisive leadership in backing Corbyn's genuine stance for BREXIT and been clear and firm about it I think that he/ they would either be in power now or be in prime position. The electorate aren't stupid and the working class in particular are sick of being taken for granted/ having no where to go. If the Labour party had made a positive vision for Brexit I believe that their supporters/ ordinary folk would have got behind them ( instead of going for the FEAR approach). The electorate believe in democracy and Sovereignty and are patriotic ( not a dirty word) far more than politicians give them credit for in my opinion. No disrespect John but that wouldn't be possible because Labour, imo, are just as divided as The Tories about Brexit. Genuinely don't think they are. Yes they are divided but not to the extremes the Tories are. For Labour it's a problem,for the Tories it's potentially fatal. Tory party could split in two,into two actual parties, if this level of division persists. |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Nov 15, 2018 19:52:19 GMT
No disrespect John but that wouldn't be possible because Labour, imo, are just as divided as The Tories about Brexit. Genuinely don't think they are. Yes they are divided but not to the extremes the Tories are. For Labour it's a problem,for the Tories it's potentially fatal. Tory party could split in two,into two actual parties, if this level of division persists. The party is not divided. The leader is divisive. That's their problem. |
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Post by boothenboy75 on Nov 15, 2018 19:53:49 GMT
Come on Rumpole, Britains finest legal mind must know what the word propose means? I cannot propose to join something that doesn’t exist. Yes you can. |
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Post by lordb on Nov 15, 2018 19:54:26 GMT
Genuinely don't think they are. Yes they are divided but not to the extremes the Tories are. For Labour it's a problem,for the Tories it's potentially fatal. Tory party could split in two,into two actual parties, if this level of division persists. The party is not divided. The leader is divisive. That's their problem. When May is gone, anytime soon..., the Tory divisions will remain. Been decades in the making. Comes to something when the likes of John Major are way way to the left of the likes of Rees Mogg and Raab. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2018 19:55:21 GMT
I cannot propose to join something that doesn’t exist. Yes you can. How? |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 15, 2018 20:06:37 GMT
No disrespect John but that wouldn't be possible because Labour, imo, are just as divided as The Tories about Brexit. Genuinely don't think they are. Yes they are divided but not to the extremes the Tories are. For Labour it's a problem,for the Tories it's potentially fatal. Tory party could split in two,into two actual parties, if this level of division persists. I agree that the Tories have been split over Europe since the first Referendum in 1973..It's caused massive disruption within the Party, so Historically speaking you are absolutely right. However, at the moment, Labour have a problem because the majority of their supporters voted leave but the majority of MPs are Remain. That's why many of them are so vague when questioned and end up bringing the '6 tests' into the equation..which means different things to different people. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 15, 2018 20:10:43 GMT
You've got to love the Tory Boys on here haven't you. On the long awaited day the Tory Party starts destroying itself through its own poisoned dogma and May clings to power like Hiroo Onada in his trench with the battle lost, they focus on Labour! This fixed term Parliament thing is a total red herring for a number of reasons. A vote of no confidence almost always results in an election. In a hung Parliament, after a no confidence vote there doesn't even have to be an election to facilitate a change of Government and finally, one should never underestimate Tory red lines on Europe. If it is calculated that it is the quickest means to their end, the turkeys wil vote for Christmas in Winter Spring and Summer and twice on Sunday!
Nothing can be ruled out other than May's obstinancy bordering on lunacy and this deal wont even reach Parliament in its current form!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 15, 2018 20:28:28 GMT
An interesting and accurate article in my opinion And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work. Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead. I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end. www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mays-deal-proves-one-thing-the-establishment-always-wins/amp/?__twitter_impression=true |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 15, 2018 20:42:31 GMT
No one could have negotiated with them cunts. They have done their best to punish the uk for having the audacity to leave.
Was it Denmark and Ireland that had to vote again? They have tried to bully us. I’d just say no and take the risk of no deal.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 20:43:40 GMT
An interesting and accurate article in my opinion And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work. Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead. I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end. www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mays-deal-proves-one-thing-the-establishment-always-wins/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueVery true sadly....end of story |
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Post by pearo on Nov 15, 2018 20:45:05 GMT
The popular media, along with the establishment, are manufacturing a situation where a second vote/ peoples vote will become inevitable. The main problem with this is that the question will then be loaded so as to try and deliver a Remain result, either by giving more than one leave option eg accept deal A, B or C, or by constant media bombardment of the perils of leaving.
The flaw in this philosophy is that the establishment and the media have no concept of how deep the passion of the leave voters is to leave and it gaining more momentum as these puppets try to manipulate the country into giving them the result that they want.
There are numerous MPs in solid Labour seats where the electorate voted Leave who are petrified that they will lose their seat if the will of the electorate is ignored, I’ve said this on more than one occasion, if the result of the referendum is not implemented then at the next general election UKIP will sweep the board.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 15, 2018 20:48:44 GMT
If Brexit was undeliverable, as some MPs are saying, why did they vote for the referendum and also to trigger Article 50? And when is the second /third referendum, because it looks inevitable now, because MPs are too cowardly to admit that they don't want Brexit, and never have. Because they thought remain would win |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Nov 15, 2018 20:56:32 GMT
You've got to love the Tory Boys on here haven't you. On the long awaited day the Tory Party starts destroying itself through its own poisoned dogma and May clings to power like Hiroo Onada in his trench with the battle lost, they focus on Labour! This fixed term Parliament thing is a total red herring for a number of reasons. A vote of no confidence almost always results in an election. In a hung Parliament, after a no confidence vote there doesn't even have to be an election to facilitate a change of Government and finally, one should never underestimate Tory red lines on Europe. If it is calculated that it is the quickest means to their end, the turkeys wil vote for Christmas in Winter Spring and Summer and twice on Sunday! Nothing can be ruled out other than May's obstinancy bordering on lunacy and this deal wont even reach Parliament in its current form! You lost my legal interest at "almost always" See you, in 2022. |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Nov 15, 2018 21:00:15 GMT
An interesting and accurate article in my opinion And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work. Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead. I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end. www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mays-deal-proves-one-thing-the-establishment-always-wins/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueNot neccesarily John. It's not over yet. |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 15, 2018 21:13:54 GMT
An interesting and accurate article in my opinion And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work. Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead. I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end. www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mays-deal-proves-one-thing-the-establishment-always-wins/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueRiots on the streets? The establishment won’t allow it and will crack down hard on any threat of discontent. However, pick some minority cause or demonstrate against British troops and you can fill your boots. This country is so fucked up by the liberal elite. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 15, 2018 21:17:23 GMT
You've got to love the Tory Boys on here haven't you. On the long awaited day the Tory Party starts destroying itself through its own poisoned dogma and May clings to power like Hiroo Onada in his trench with the battle lost, they focus on Labour! This fixed term Parliament thing is a total red herring for a number of reasons. A vote of no confidence almost always results in an election. In a hung Parliament, after a no confidence vote there doesn't even have to be an election to facilitate a change of Government and finally, one should never underestimate Tory red lines on Europe. If it is calculated that it is the quickest means to their end, the turkeys wil vote for Christmas in Winter Spring and Summer and twice on Sunday! Nothing can be ruled out other than May's obstinancy bordering on lunacy and this deal wont even reach Parliament in its current form! You lost my legal interest at "almost always" See you, in 2022. I really would love to see this Government stumble on after a vote of no confidence, whether it be a Tory leadership one or a Government one. It would be the equivalent of not just slowing down at a car crash but getting out and having a four course dinner and a dance whilst the body bags arrive. There wouldn't be a Tory Prime Minister until Sixtus Dominic Boniface Rees Mogg (real name btw. You're a real man of the people Jakey) stands in 2047! |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 15, 2018 21:19:50 GMT
An interesting and accurate article in my opinion And so it is with our latest Peasants’ Revolt on 23 June 2016 — a mass outpouring of anger at the ruling elite in Britain and Brussels, a passion for the nation state and sovereignty, a long weariness over immigration and a great disdain for the well-heeled liberal establishment that believes Leave voters are all ill-educated racist scum who should shut up and get back in their boxes, to their call centres or wherever it is they work these days. If they work. Hell, you think that stuff about £350 million a week to the NHS was a lie? It has nothing on what we’ve been told since by the people who lost the vote: the multitudes of the well-heeled mobilised on their marches, waving their EU flags, packing out the Albert Hall for Last Night of the Proms, all of them insisting that the morons who voted Leave have now changed their minds and citing polls which show precisely that — much, in fact, as polls, showed a desire to stay in the EU on the evening before the actual referendum, when Remain had up to an eight-point lead. I am told quite frequently that a failure to leave will lead to riots on the streets. No it won’t. It will lead only to a sullen acceptance that once again, you can’t beat the establishment. It will always win in the end. www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mays-deal-proves-one-thing-the-establishment-always-wins/amp/?__twitter_impression=trueNot neccesarily John. It's not over yet. I am actually still optimistic. At least the true intentions of the EU , Political and Economic union , are out in the open and there's no going back on that. If we end up remaining ( and I don't think we will) I think that the EU will be under more scrutiny. I don't think that the British public will Ever have a natural affinity for it though. Rule from Brussels just isn't in our psyche. I still think that the video of Peter Shore in 1975 is relevant" now that the fraud has been exposed"..…..and you can tell from his passion that he means it. |
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