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Post by scfc1863 on Oct 23, 2018 21:47:21 GMT
52% knew what they were voting for apparently. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 22:03:29 GMT
This is too simple and factual for the Brexiteers huddy ... The fact that we spend a miniscule of our wealth on the EU contribution is of no consequence... Sovereignty. That's all that counts. If it destroys our economy and isolates us from our European friends it is of no consequence. Blinkered, nationalistic, jingoist, isolationist UKIP driven mob incitement that will take our country back to the dark ages. You're pie chart shows me what an incredible amount of cash goes into welfare. How many of them are able to work yet they refuse to and would rather let me and you do it instead, sucking my taxes up for their lazy lifestyle |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 23, 2018 22:25:16 GMT
Respectfully Yeokel, I disagree with points in the post you made earlier. In particular:
It is not about money for some of us.
That is not, though, true of just the Brexit voters. Several remain supporters on this forum have mentioned other issues. It certainly was not about money for me. I have argued before (rightly or wrongly) that people who voted for Brexit are guilty of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. How do you measure (objectively) the contribution the EU has made to European peace since 1945? What happens if the EU does disintegrate? Do we end up back with the nation states (which you profess to love so much) as they were 120 years ago? That worked out really well….
However, it is also possible to assert that money is a big issue. The lying bus mentioned £350 million, per week, and the whole idea at the moment is to make sure that trade continues as smoothly as possible. I remember reading that some people voted for Brexit because of their relatively poor working and living conditions over the past 30 years. It may not be about money for you, or for me, but clearly it is for many people.
I disagree that the Leave Vote was primarily about national identity.
It was actually a very close result. Many of us have been happy to British and European for all our lives. In addition we subscribe to the vision of peace, progress and prosperity developed by the EU since the end of WW2. I am afraid I simply don’t share what you apparently sense and write about a rich cultural heritage and a proud history. I would ask in particular what you mean by a proud history, and sharing similar values.?
It is an assertion to write that “the EU will eventually fall apart”.
In the same way, I suppose you could argue that most states, empires and organisations change over time, so yes, the EU could fall apart. So could the UK. Germany has been divided and put back together many times over the years. The USSR collapsed. So did the Roman Empire the Holy Roman Empire, and the British Empire. I do not see at all the EU which you describe. You don’t know, and nor do I, what will happen to the EU in the future. There may be a Messiah who modernises it and bring even more joy and happiness to millions.
UNITED IN DIVERSITY
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Post by felonious on Oct 24, 2018 4:43:38 GMT
52% knew what they were voting for apparently. 100% knew that Y2K was going to be the worst disaster faced by civilisation. |
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Post by felonious on Oct 24, 2018 4:56:22 GMT
"This is the first Italian budget that the EU doesn't like," wrote Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio on Facebook. "No surprise: This is the first Italian budget written in Rome and not in Brussels!"
Perhaps the time has now been reached whereby all political parties across the EU states should be required to submit there manifestos to Brussels for approval.
Berlin At least it's bringing peace to Europe  |
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Post by harryburrows on Oct 24, 2018 6:48:52 GMT
At least it's bringing peace to Europe I happen to think its totally irresponsible of the Italian government and agree with their masters in OZ |
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Post by yeokel on Oct 24, 2018 8:58:44 GMT
Respectfully Yeokel, I disagree with points in the post you made earlier. In particular: It is not about money for some of us. That is not, though, true of just the Brexit voters. Several remain supporters on this forum have mentioned other issues. It certainly was not about money for me. I have argued before (rightly or wrongly) that people who voted for Brexit are guilty of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. How do you measure (objectively) the contribution the EU has made to European peace since 1945? What happens if the EU does disintegrate? Do we end up back with the nation states (which you profess to love so much) as they were 120 years ago? That worked out really well…............ UNITED IN DIVERSITY I've shortened your post and lifted quotes from it (shown in italics) so that this branch of the thread doesn't become one massive block of text. I hope you don't mind. “ I have argued before (rightly or wrongly) that people who voted for Brexit are guilty of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing” That’s just a cliché with little relevance to the Brexit debate in my opinion.
“How do you measure (objectively) the contribution the EU has made to European peace since 1945?” I couldn’t agree more but, in my estimation, the EU in its various guises has contributed little to the peace in Europe which is actually down to NATO, better lines of communication and perhaps we have finally learned that “jaw, jaw, jaw” is better than “war, war, war” in most circumstances. “ What happens if the EU does disintegrate? Do we end up back with the nation states (which you profess to love so much) as they were 120 years ago?” Why go back 120 years? They are fine as they are now as far as I can see, but I’m sure they will change shape and constitution over time. “ Many of us have been happy to British and European for all our lives” I agree. I made that very point myself. “ In addition we subscribe to the vision of peace, progress and prosperity developed by the EU since the end of WW2” I think we in Britain can (and have) developed our own ideas on those matters and don’t need to be part of an undemocratic bureaucracy to see it through although we are happy to share with our European friends and neighbours as, I think, there is much commonality between us. “ I am afraid I simply don’t share what you apparently sense and write about a rich cultural heritage” Really? To merely scratch the surface, I would include Shakespeare, Dickens, Turner, Constable, Hockney, Elgar, Britten, Wordsworth, Tolkein, Flemming, Gilbert & Sullivan, the Beatles, Olivier, Gielgud, Hepburn, Mirren, Taylor, Lutyens, Wedgwood, Mackintosh, Foster, Chipperfield, and hundreds more as being part of our rich cultural heritage. “ I would ask in particular what you mean by a proud history” We (the British) have a history of developments, inventions and discoveries in medical science, physics & chemistry, technology, industry, exploration and discovery second to none. And although it wasn’t all for the good (or bad) I’m proud of the fact that ‘the sun never set on the British Empire’. We also have a history of sporting achievements as good as any other country on the planet. That's what I mean by a proud history. “ I suppose you could argue that most states, empires and organisations change over time, so yes, the EU could fall apart” Indeed, and it rarely happens peacefully. It normally includes much bloodshed and misery, mostly for the ‘common people’ such as you and me (assuming you're common, of course) and I would like to see my country and, indeed, all our friends and neighbours avoid that fate. I’m sure there is much more I could answer your post with, but I don’t want to bore you. This country has punched well above its weight for centuries, has generally been a major force for good in this world and long may that continue without the hindrance or ‘assistance’ of a protectionist trading block and a covert empire building federation such as the EU. |
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Post by starkiller on Oct 24, 2018 10:55:49 GMT
This is too simple and factual for the Brexiteers huddy ... The fact that we spend a miniscule of our wealth on the EU contribution is of no consequence... Sovereignty. That's all that counts. If it destroys our economy and isolates us from our European friends it is of no consequence. Blinkered, nationalistic, jingoist, isolationist UKIP driven mob incitement that will take our country back to the dark ages. NPC in full effect. Accept the result of the biggest democratic vote in British history. Everything else is secondary. Accept the result. |
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 24, 2018 11:03:06 GMT
Italy budget rejected in unprecedented European Commission move Which goes to prove you can't have your Panettone and eat it. Pity: Why does Italy want to spend more?The new government has vowed to "end poverty" with a minimum income for the unemployed.
Other measures include tax cuts and scrapping extensions to the retirement age - fulfilling several key campaign promises from the election in March. "This is the first Italian budget that the EU doesn't like," wrote Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio on Facebook. "No surprise: This is the first Italian budget written in Rome and not in Brussels!"
Perhaps the time has now been reached whereby all political parties across the EU states should be required to submit there manifestos to Brussels for approval.
Have no doubt about it, ever closer union means just that. One state, one over-riding authority, no one will be allowed to step out of line. Brexit will not be allowed to happen again with another state. The UK must be made to pay for leaving. I have worked closely with French, Dutch, and Germans for many years; their psychology is that if there is not a rule for something, then there must be anarchy. The Greek economy has been destroyed by the Euro and the Italian economy is following; it is smaller now than 2008. I cannot see the Italian people being prepared to be pushed around by Brussels the way Greece has been. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45954022www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/italy-the-sick-man-of-europe/The massive imbalance being generated between the German economy and the rest is going to lead to friction. That imbalance will be magnified by the UK leaving. Unemployment in Greece, Spain, and Italy is at socially unacceptable levels. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_and_social_rankings_of_sovereign_states_in_EuropeScare mongers are at work about us leaving the EU. How do they think countries like USA, Japan, Australia, Canada, Etc. survive outside the EU? Are they starving and lacking in medical supplies. Our economy will grow faster outside of the EU than inside the EU after a short period of adjustment. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 24, 2018 11:20:10 GMT
As Yeokel said,it is not just about the economy. For many Brexit voters and Remainers. The point about "Ever Closer Union" I do not accept. There may be an idea,a theory.It will stand or fall when it is tested against the level of opposition in the member states. It means nothing more than when Charles 1 spoke about the Divine Right of Kings. It didn't stop him getting his head knocked off.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 24, 2018 11:51:56 GMT
This is too simple and factual for the Brexiteers huddy ... The fact that we spend a miniscule of our wealth on the EU contribution is of no consequence... Sovereignty. That's all that counts. If it destroys our economy and isolates us from our European friends it is of no consequence. Blinkered, nationalistic, jingoist, isolationist UKIP driven mob incitement that will take our country back to the dark ages. NPC in full effect. Accept the result of the biggest democratic vote in British history. Everything else is secondary. Accept the result. No, Star, the racist thickos can only have their opinion respected when they vote Labour. |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 24, 2018 11:55:32 GMT
Contingency plan A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual plan. It is often used for risk management for an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences. Contingency plans are often devised by governments or businesses. This BS from sky is bought to you by the people saying the government had no plans for no deal, now they start to release their contingency plans you have people believing this is the actual outcome the government is expecting  |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 24, 2018 12:05:19 GMT
Contingency plan A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual plan. It is often used for risk management for an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences. Contingency plans are often devised by governments or businesses. This BS from sky is bought to you by the people saying the government had no plans for no deal, now they start to release their contingency plans you have people believing this is the actual outcome the government is expecting Like McDonnell did for a run on the pound? |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 24, 2018 12:06:51 GMT
52% knew what they were voting for apparently. You really believe that is a likely outcome  These foods and medicines and everything else that will be stopped / delayed from being bought into the UK, they are being made / produced by EU companies any loss of supply to the UK is a loss of sales, profits and jobs in EU countries, it's laughable you think that will be allowed to happen. You know for 50+ years the government has had contingency plans for the USSR nuking us that does not mean they expected it to happen  |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 24, 2018 12:08:46 GMT
Contingency plan A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual plan. It is often used for risk management for an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences. Contingency plans are often devised by governments or businesses. This BS from sky is bought to you by the people saying the government had no plans for no deal, now they start to release their contingency plans you have people believing this is the actual outcome the government is expecting Like McDonnell did for a run on the pound? Yes similar although they were wargaming what could happen rather than having actual contingency plans |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 24, 2018 12:14:40 GMT
Like McDonnell did for a run on the pound? Yes similar although they were wargaming what could happen rather than having actual contingency plans Sure some on here defended it. What's the difference, really? Oh, it's Labour! 😁 |
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 24, 2018 12:32:06 GMT
You know for 50+ years the government has had contingency plans for the USSR nuking us that does not mean they expected it to happen That reminds me... I'm yet to see a single one of those Russian tanks we were promised would be rolling down our streets if we voted Leave!  |
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Post by maxplonk on Oct 24, 2018 12:53:06 GMT
Contingency plan A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual plan. It is often used for risk management for an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences. Contingency plans are often devised by governments or businesses. This BS from sky is bought to you by the people saying the government had no plans for no deal, now they start to release their contingency plans you have people believing this is the actual outcome the government is expecting Given the in-fighting in the Tory party, it would seem very unlikely that contingencies for all aspects of a no-deal brexit have been anticipated.Sadly, the report issued by the National Audit Office today appears to confirm that this is the case. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 24, 2018 13:53:03 GMT
So May is still appearing in front of the 1922 Committee later today but Steve Baker has withdrawn his amendments to the Northern Ireland Bill.
Some speculation as to whether the 48 letters are in and Brady is stalling calling the vote on May. Another theory is that some of those 48 are actually May supports who would trigger a confidence vote on her if they were sure she'd win it thus blocking another confidence vote for at least 12 months. Also, quite a lot of talk about the 'knifing' and 'bring a noose' comments being staged by her own side to elicit some sympathy for May.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 24, 2018 14:51:30 GMT
You know for 50+ years the government has had contingency plans for the USSR nuking us that does not mean they expected it to happen That reminds me... I'm yet to see a single one of those Russian tanks we were promised would be rolling down our streets if we voted Leave! You won’t there busy on there computers trying to hlep corbyn win the next election |
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Post by trickydicky73 on Oct 24, 2018 15:28:59 GMT
So May is still appearing in front of the 1922 Committee later today but Steve Baker has withdrawn his amendments to the Northern Ireland Bill. Some speculation as to whether the 48 letters are in and Brady is stalling calling the vote on May. Another theory is that some of those 48 are actually May supports who would trigger a confidence vote on her if they were sure she'd win it thus blocking another confidence vote for at least 12 months. Also, quite a lot of talk about the 'knifing' and 'bring a noose' comments being staged by her own side to elicit some sympathy for May. The fit up continues. |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 24, 2018 19:30:29 GMT
Contingency plan A contingency plan is a plan devised for an outcome other than in the usual plan. It is often used for risk management for an exceptional risk that, though unlikely, would have catastrophic consequences. Contingency plans are often devised by governments or businesses. This BS from sky is bought to you by the people saying the government had no plans for no deal, now they start to release their contingency plans you have people believing this is the actual outcome the government is expecting Given the in-fighting in the Tory party, it would seem very unlikely that contingencies for all aspects of a no-deal brexit have been anticipated.Sadly, the report issued by the National Audit Office today appears to confirm that this is the case. You do realise its the civil servants who do all this planning not MP's so any infighting is pretty irrelevant, there has been no real planning for a no deal from the UK or the EU because there is no way a no deal will ever be allowed. |
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Post by pearo on Oct 24, 2018 20:19:33 GMT
As Yeokel said,it is not just about the economy. For many Brexit voters and Remainers. The point about "Ever Closer Union" I do not accept. There may be an idea,a theory.It will stand or fall when it is tested against the level of opposition in the member states. It means nothing more than when Charles 1 spoke about the Divine Right of Kings. It didn't stop him getting his head knocked off. Charles 1 desire to impose “ Divine Right” on his subjects, in spite of his ethnicity, religion and general frivolity compared to the majority of the population at the time bears many traits of the leviathan of the EU. As you rightly say he lost his head ( much like many remainers ). He was all about economy as long as it was for him, ( rather like the EU) and god willing the EU will befall the same fate. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 24, 2018 23:40:20 GMT
Was he frivolous? Anyway, I agree with your post Pearo. My point was that it is only in terms of rhetoric that the EU is on the road to Ever Closer Union. There is, and likely always will be, too much opposition, and too many distractions, for such an idea to hear fruit. Exactly like Charles 1, and many others.
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Post by maxplonk on Oct 25, 2018 4:23:48 GMT
Given the in-fighting in the Tory party, it would seem very unlikely that contingencies for all aspects of a no-deal brexit have been anticipated.Sadly, the report issued by the National Audit Office today appears to confirm that this is the case. You do realise its the civil servants who do all this planning not MP's so any infighting is pretty irrelevant, there has been no real planning for a no deal from the UK or the EU because there is no way a no deal will ever be allowed. Of course I'm aware that it's the civil servants who do the work. More specifically, they do the work commissioned by the government within the time-frame allotted, and the time-frame for Brexit is very tight*. This work really should have been done before Article 50 was triggered - there was never any chance of that happening - and I think the differing ideas within the government about what Brexit should be (soft, hard no-deal) have made the NAO's job even much more difficult in this case. I'm afraid I don't share your certainty about the no-deal scenario - wish I did. It may not happen while May is PM - the only thing she is good for IMO - but I think there are other players who might well opt for no-deal rather than a delayed Brexit, especially the ERG group. It could also happen (although I think iz unlikely) that the EU loses patience with the UK and invokes Article 7 which would mean suspension for the UK - same effect as a no deal. *I maintain that Brexit has always really been about getting the UK out of the EU before the latters Anti-Tax-Avoidance initiative comes into being next year - and that some would choose no-deal rather than fall under it. |
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Post by harryburrows on Oct 25, 2018 7:19:23 GMT
You do realise its the civil servants who do all this planning not MP's so any infighting is pretty irrelevant, there has been no real planning for a no deal from the UK or the EU because there is no way a no deal will ever be allowed. Of course I'm aware that it's the civil servants who do the work. More specifically, they do the work commissioned by the government within the time-frame allotted, and the time-frame for Brexit is very tight*. This work really should have been done before Article 50 was triggered - there was never any chance of that happening - and I think the differing ideas within the government about what Brexit should be (soft, hard no-deal) have made the NAO's job even much more difficult in this case. I'm afraid I don't share your certainty about the no-deal scenario - wish I did. It may not happen while May is PM - the only thing she is good for IMO - but I think there are other players who might well opt for no-deal rather than a delayed Brexit, especially the ERG group. It could also happen (although I think iz unlikely) that the EU loses patience with the UK and invokes Article 7 which would mean suspension for the UK - same effect as a no deal. *I maintain that Brexit has always really been about getting the UK out of the EU before the latters Anti-Tax-Avoidance initiative comes into being next year - and that some would choose no-deal rather than fall under it. What did the people who voted to leave know or care about tax avoidance legislation |
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Post by maxplonk on Oct 25, 2018 8:48:33 GMT
Of course I'm aware that it's the civil servants who do the work. More specifically, they do the work commissioned by the government within the time-frame allotted, and the time-frame for Brexit is very tight*. This work really should have been done before Article 50 was triggered - there was never any chance of that happening - and I think the differing ideas within the government about what Brexit should be (soft, hard no-deal) have made the NAO's job even much more difficult in this case. I'm afraid I don't share your certainty about the no-deal scenario - wish I did. It may not happen while May is PM - the only thing she is good for IMO - but I think there are other players who might well opt for no-deal rather than a delayed Brexit, especially the ERG group. It could also happen (although I think iz unlikely) that the EU loses patience with the UK and invokes Article 7 which would mean suspension for the UK - same effect as a no deal. *I maintain that Brexit has always really been about getting the UK out of the EU before the latters Anti-Tax-Avoidance initiative comes into being next year - and that some would choose no-deal rather than fall under it. What did the people who voted to leave know or care about tax avoidance legislation Thanks to the misdirection about immigration, nhs the people knew nothing and therefore couldn't care about it. |
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Post by harryburrows on Oct 25, 2018 12:08:44 GMT
What did the people who voted to leave know or care about tax avoidance legislation Thanks to the misdirection about immigration, nhs the people knew nothing and therefore couldn't care about it. You are confused 😐 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 12:17:43 GMT
Thanks to the misdirection about immigration, nhs the people knew nothing and therefore couldn't care about it. You are confused 😐 I could think of a few better words |
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Post by Northy on Oct 25, 2018 12:24:12 GMT
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