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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 10:45:58 GMT
Really. OK, pick on at random..... "Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?" Talk me through the details. How do you quantify "deliver"? Well the inference here is no sweetheart deals for the City or favoured manufacturers/sectors. A deal for the many not the few  OK. So the largest tax generator in the country, the City, is as equal as Wrights Pies? Righto. No reassurances to big business' after Brexit? No tax breaks to promote investment and keep jobs? No support for the manufacturing sector which is the opposite message demanded by their unions? Everyone's the same. Sounds cool. Is this written down anywhere? You know, details. The detail of how Labour isn't going to reassure the city but is going to reassure the South West Farmers or the Fishing industry or the devolved parliaments? By the way. What's "it"? Brexit I presume but what is actually being delivered? |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 10:57:16 GMT
Well the inference here is no sweetheart deals for the City or favoured manufacturers/sectors. A deal for the many not the few OK. So the largest tax generator in the country, the City, is as equal as Wrights Pies? Righto. No reassurances to big business' after Brexit? No tax breaks to promote investment and keep jobs? No support for the manufacturing sector which is the opposite message demanded by their unions? Everyone's the same. Sounds cool. Is this written down anywhere? You know, details. The detail of how Labour isn't going to reassure the city but is going to reassure the South West Farmers or the Fishing industry or the devolved parliaments? By the way. What's "it"? Brexit I presume but what is actually being delivered? The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver!  |
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Post by yeokel on Oct 16, 2018 11:01:23 GMT
I have no idea what you are like as a person. If Brexit happens, some people (most, I suspect) will get on with their lives and do the best they can in the changed circumstances. Some (a few), on the other hand, may simply give up thinking there is no point in trying as, in the short and long terms, ‘we’re fucked’. The country will have some ups and downs which will need working through. Some will work through them and ‘go the extra mile’, and some won’t. I believe that economically, security wise and culturally the country and its population will be better off in the medium and long terms and that while the EU noisily and violently implodes, we will be grateful to be on the edge of it rather than at the centre of things. Does that answer the “vagueness” for you? Because I said "we're fucked" you said that I, directly, was "flapping" We're fucked because we have a shit and inadequate government trying to carry out the "will of the people" that's what I was referring to. Life hasn't and won't change as far as I'm concerned, I'll still work my nuts off, pay my taxes and get on with things. Make no mistake, when I say "we're fucked" it doesn't mean I've chucked the towel in or think we're forever condemned to living in a black hole. I've said from day one every person that voted leave and thought we'd be coming up smelling of roses was utterly deluded and naïve for thinking so. Btw, how are you going to "go the extra mile" in making it work? unless you're Dominc Raab I fail to see what you can do to make the slightest bit of difference in all honesty. What can I do to make a difference, or help this country through its short term woes? Well, I could buy a car which is made (or assembled) in Britain rather than one made in Germany. I could buy food which is grown in Britain rather than outside the UK. It may cost a little more, but I can do that to help. I could take more holidays and spend more money in Britain rather than in France or Germany where we go at present. In fact, all of my purchasing decisions could (and should) be based on a ‘Buy British’ campaign. I could encourage all of the above in others too, rather than accept that they just do what is easiest for them. I can make sure that my business buys British too, wherever possible. I can vote in ways, or for parties which put Britain first rather than wanting us to be equals among our friends and neighbours. The French put France and the French first, The Germans similarly put Germany first, it’s about time we made a conscious effort to put Britain first. I’m sure there are loads more things I can do to help out and ‘go the extra mile’. Or, I can do none of the above and then when the country goes completely tits up, I can say “I told you so”. (I’m not suggesting that you yourself will do that, before you accuse me. It doesn’t sound as if you will) |
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Post by yeokel on Oct 16, 2018 11:06:31 GMT
OK. So the largest tax generator in the country, the City, is as equal as Wrights Pies? Righto. No reassurances to big business' after Brexit? No tax breaks to promote investment and keep jobs? No support for the manufacturing sector which is the opposite message demanded by their unions? Everyone's the same. Sounds cool. Is this written down anywhere? You know, details. The detail of how Labour isn't going to reassure the city but is going to reassure the South West Farmers or the Fishing industry or the devolved parliaments? By the way. What's "it"? Brexit I presume but what is actually being delivered? The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver! OK, so they have given themselves a basis to complain about any deal which may be delivered. But, as has been asked before, where is their alternative deal, and what would they be doing differently in the current negotiations? |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 16, 2018 11:19:36 GMT
Sounds very much like backward-looking Brexit Britain to me. Buy a "British car", "Holiday in Britain" "Buy British". Reads like that "I'm Backing Britain" campaign from the 1960s. I used to read about it on my paper round..
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 16, 2018 11:28:58 GMT
I have no idea what you are like as a person. If Brexit happens, some people (most, I suspect) will get on with their lives and do the best they can in the changed circumstances. Some (a few), on the other hand, may simply give up thinking there is no point in trying as, in the short and long terms, ‘we’re fucked’. The country will have some ups and downs which will need working through. Some will work through them and ‘go the extra mile’, and some won’t. I believe that economically, security wise and culturally the country and its population will be better off in the medium and long terms and that while the EU noisily and violently implodes, we will be grateful to be on the edge of it rather than at the centre of things. Does that answer the “vagueness” for you? Because I said "we're fucked" you said that I, directly, was "flapping"  We're fucked because we have a shit and inadequate government trying to carry out the "will of the people" that's what I was referring to. Life hasn't and won't change as far as I'm concerned, I'll still work my nuts off, pay my taxes and get on with things. Make no mistake, when I say "we're fucked" it doesn't mean I've chucked the towel in or think we're forever condemned to living in a black hole. I've said from day one every person that voted leave and thought we'd be coming up smelling of roses was utterly deluded and naïve for thinking so. Btw, how are you going to "go the extra mile" in making it work? unless you're Dominc Raab I fail to see what you can do to make the slightest bit of difference in all honesty. Won't your mate Tony S (sorry Momo) be slipping you something now and again to keep you going |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 11:38:25 GMT
The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver! OK, so they have given themselves a basis to complain about any deal which may be delivered. But, as has been asked before, where is their alternative deal, and what would they be doing differently in the current negotiations? Hold on! What happened to 'why would you show your hand' going in to negotiations that used to be the staple of the hard right who wanted a 'beneath the table' bonfire of rights tax haven Britain?  Dose that no longer apply? The Labour Party stance is simple. The Tories have failed to deliver anything that is acceptable to anyone and a General Election is the only solution. Upon winning it, a Labour Government would go back to the negotiating table with nothing off the table. These arbitrary deadlines are just that and easily extended. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 11:39:27 GMT
OK. So the largest tax generator in the country, the City, is as equal as Wrights Pies? Righto. No reassurances to big business' after Brexit? No tax breaks to promote investment and keep jobs? No support for the manufacturing sector which is the opposite message demanded by their unions? Everyone's the same. Sounds cool. Is this written down anywhere? You know, details. The detail of how Labour isn't going to reassure the city but is going to reassure the South West Farmers or the Fishing industry or the devolved parliaments? By the way. What's "it"? Brexit I presume but what is actually being delivered? The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver!  And since then the Government has moved on to publishing a 100 page White Paper Where's Labour's proposal? Brexit Conservatives have published their own 147 page Plan A+ proposal and the ERG have published their Irish Border Solution paper.
Starmer just cut n' pasted from May's 12 points she set out 2 months before. Now, just to make it easy for you I've highlighted and numbered where Keir copied May's original points... 1. Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU. 2. Control of our own laws. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. 3. Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom. (6) 4. Deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland. 5. Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe. (3)6. Protect rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can. (4)7. Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them. (4)8. Free trade with European markets through a bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union.(1)9. New trade agreements with other countries. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation. 10. The best place for science and innovation. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. 11. Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself. (5)12. A smooth, orderly Brexit. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states. Starmer's nonsense.... 1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? 2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union? 3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities? 4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom? 5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime? 6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK? No.2 is obviously cobblers as I mentioned in a previous post. So there you have it. The entirety of Labour's Brexit proposal. 84 words. Two and half years after the referendum vote. 84 words. Notice how there's zero mention of trade deals with the RoW or Science and technology or Northern Ireland! |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 16, 2018 11:45:00 GMT
I am already living in Europe.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Oct 16, 2018 11:46:24 GMT
Because I said "we're fucked" you said that I, directly, was "flapping" We're fucked because we have a shit and inadequate government trying to carry out the "will of the people" that's what I was referring to. Life hasn't and won't change as far as I'm concerned, I'll still work my nuts off, pay my taxes and get on with things. Make no mistake, when I say "we're fucked" it doesn't mean I've chucked the towel in or think we're forever condemned to living in a black hole. I've said from day one every person that voted leave and thought we'd be coming up smelling of roses was utterly deluded and naïve for thinking so. Btw, how are you going to "go the extra mile" in making it work? unless you're Dominc Raab I fail to see what you can do to make the slightest bit of difference in all honesty. Won't your mate Tony S (sorry Momo) be slipping you something now and again to keep you going To quote Super Hans from Peep Show, "it's not who you know, it's who you blow".. wise, wise words. |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 11:50:03 GMT
I am already living in Europe. Mainland Europe? The EU? Somewhere other than post Brexit Britain? |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2018 11:53:44 GMT
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Oct 16, 2018 11:54:40 GMT
Count me out Yeokel. I won't be helping to build backward-looking Brexit Britain. We'll be building a forwards looking Great Britain for you then. You will reap the benefits in due course although, by the sound of it, you won't have done much to help us. But, please just stay out of the way while we get on with things. Explain the benefits and how long we have to wait for them, please. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 16, 2018 12:00:13 GMT
I will need an E.U Passport to do that. I will write to Andrew Bridgen for help with my application.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 12:03:33 GMT
OK, so they have given themselves a basis to complain about any deal which may be delivered. But, as has been asked before, where is their alternative deal, and what would they be doing differently in the current negotiations? Hold on! What happened to 'why would you show your hand' going in to negotiations that used to be the staple of the hard right who wanted a 'beneath the table' bonfire of rights tax haven Britain? Dose that no longer apply? The Labour Party stance is simple. The Tories have failed to deliver anything that is acceptable to anyone and a General Election is the only solution. Upon winning it, a Labour Government would go back to the negotiating table with nothing off the table. These arbitrary deadlines are just that and easily extended.  Momo thinks Article 50 only applies to the Conservative Party. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 12:04:31 GMT
Hold on! What happened to 'why would you show your hand' going in to negotiations that used to be the staple of the hard right who wanted a 'beneath the table' bonfire of rights tax haven Britain? Dose that no longer apply? The Labour Party stance is simple. The Tories have failed to deliver anything that is acceptable to anyone and a General Election is the only solution. Upon winning it, a Labour Government would go back to the negotiating table with nothing off the table. These arbitrary deadlines are just that and easily extended. Momo thinks Article 50 only applies to the Conservative Party. Are you saying it would be impossible to extend it? |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2018 12:08:50 GMT
Momo thinks Article 50 only applies to the Conservative Party. Are you saying it would be impossible to extend it? Oh so you want to extend it and carry on paying membership fees while we negotiate that'll teach the EU a lesson they'll never forget........ |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 12:10:59 GMT
Are you saying it would be impossible to extend it? Oh so you want to extend it and carry on paying membership fees while we negotiate that'll teach the EU a lesson they'll never forget........ Maybe you have to a pay a price for the rank incompetence of this Government The date is truly arbitrary though in reality isn't it. Just like May and the fixed term Parliament act. |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2018 12:13:05 GMT
OK. So the largest tax generator in the country, the City, is as equal as Wrights Pies? Righto. No reassurances to big business' after Brexit? No tax breaks to promote investment and keep jobs? No support for the manufacturing sector which is the opposite message demanded by their unions? Everyone's the same. Sounds cool. Is this written down anywhere? You know, details. The detail of how Labour isn't going to reassure the city but is going to reassure the South West Farmers or the Fishing industry or the devolved parliaments? By the way. What's "it"? Brexit I presume but what is actually being delivered? The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver! Labour's own view of their own brexit tests, bollocks always has been and it remains |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 12:15:48 GMT
The six tests were actually set up to track all the things the bozos in Government, actually negotiating the deal said they would deliver! Labour's own view of their own brexit tests, bollocks always has been and it remains I agree with Barry. The government's Brexit policy has always been full of lies and bollocks! |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2018 12:21:41 GMT
Oh so you want to extend it and carry on paying membership fees while we negotiate that'll teach the EU a lesson they'll never forget........ Maybe you have to a pay a price for the rank incompetence of this Government The date is truly arbitrary though in reality isn't it. Just like May and the fixed term Parliament act. Nope A50 date is unambigious 2 years from date of triggering you leave, this idea Labour would get a better deal is laughable. The EU is not moving at all and won't unless we appear serious about playing chicken with them. History will also judge corbyn's failed cynical rank opportunism harshly |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 12:31:59 GMT
I will need an E.U Passport to do that. I will write to Andrew Bridgen for help with my application. So you think that only people with EU passports can live in the EU? |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 16, 2018 12:39:43 GMT
Momo thinks Article 50 only applies to the Conservative Party. Are you saying it would be impossible to extend it? So Labour win a general election and say what? Hang on EU, we need more time to get our shit together because for the last two and half years we haven't actually put any Brexit plan together. And they say what? Yeah sure, no probs. We'll give you 6 months or a year to sort yourselves out then you can come back at us with a tough negotiating stance. Or, they say, tough shit you've got exactly 5 months before WTO kicks in but if you want to get into the 'transition period' to secure more time then we'll screw you to the wall with more concessions first.  |
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Post by xchpotter on Oct 16, 2018 12:45:58 GMT
Just can’t believe the apparent desire and glee some are getting in wanting to see this country fail; it’s shameful. I’m sure we’ve all been involved in stuff in life or work where there have been problems and people disagree, but to sit there in the corner crying and hoping it all explodes just so you can say I told you so...I don’t get it. If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Oct 16, 2018 12:51:31 GMT
Just can’t believe the apparent desire and glee some are getting in wanting to see this country to fail; it’s shameful. I’m sure we’ve all been involved in stuff in life or work where there have been problems and people disagree, but to sit there in the corner crying and hoping it all explodes just so you can say I told you so...I don’t get it. If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. I'm with Piers Morgan on this one - I would have voted to remain but the vote went the other way. The leavers knew exactly what they wanted - out of the EU. There should be a Leaver running the show and if there is no deal its a hard Brexit - that was the will of the slight majority. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 16, 2018 13:00:39 GMT
Just can’t believe the apparent desire and glee some are getting in wanting to see this country fail; it’s shameful. I’m sure we’ve all been involved in stuff in life or work where there have been problems and people disagree, but to sit there in the corner crying and hoping it all explodes just so you can say I told you so...I don’t get it. If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Apart from when the solutions you offer lead to you being called a "snowflake" "remoaner" "traitor" "enemy of the people" . It's difficult to reason with people who call others these things and form a constructive solution. No single major brexiteer had the stones to take this on and unite both sides, which for me speaks volumes. It's an impossible job. Because you can't solve a multi-faceted issue that affects people in myriad ways with a binary referendum. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 16, 2018 13:06:34 GMT
Just can’t believe the apparent desire and glee some are getting in wanting to see this country to fail; it’s shameful. I’m sure we’ve all been involved in stuff in life or work where there have been problems and people disagree, but to sit there in the corner crying and hoping it all explodes just so you can say I told you so...I don’t get it. If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. I'm with Piers Morgan on this one - I would have voted to remain but the vote went the other way. The leavers knew exactly what they wanted - out of the EU. There should be a Leaver running the show and if there is no deal its a hard Brexit - that was the will of the slight majority. Agree with point 2 but not point 1. A brexiteer should have had the balls to step up to the plate, and the sheer paucity of options for replacing Cameron simply demonstrated that they had no idea or indeed the talent to carry out what they had rallied for the whole time. I disagree with point 1 because being out of the EU is not a binary in out status. There's out but in CU, out but with a trade deal, out with no trade deal etc, I don't believe there was pure unanimous decision making behind everyone's decision to leave. That's not to say they didn't know what they voted for though, it's more the point that they didn't know what others were voting for by picking leave as well. |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Oct 16, 2018 13:07:13 GMT
Just can’t believe the apparent desire and glee some are getting in wanting to see this country fail; it’s shameful. I’m sure we’ve all been involved in stuff in life or work where there have been problems and people disagree, but to sit there in the corner crying and hoping it all explodes just so you can say I told you so...I don’t get it. If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. So what's the solution? |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 13:07:19 GMT
Are you saying it would be impossible to extend it? So Labour win a general election and say what? Hang on EU, we need more time to get our shit together because for the last two and half years we haven't actually put any Brexit plan together. And they say what? Yeah sure, no probs. We'll give you 6 months or a year to sort yourselves out then you can come back at us with a tough negotiating stance. Or, they say, tough shit you've got exactly 5 months before WTO kicks in but if you want to get into the 'transition period' to secure more time then we'll screw you to the wall with more concessions first. mmm of course your paranoid view of the world depends entirely on why you feel the negotiations have been so fucking disastrous. Let me guess dodge, it's those pesky Europeans isn't it? |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 16, 2018 13:09:23 GMT
Maybe you have to a pay a price for the rank incompetence of this Government The date is truly arbitrary though in reality isn't it. Just like May and the fixed term Parliament act. Nope A50 date is unambigious 2 years from date of triggering you leave, this idea Labour would get a better deal is laughable. The EU is not moving at all and won't unless we appear serious about playing chicken with them. History will also judge corbyn's failed cynical rank opportunism harshly A50 is unambiguous and can be easily extended with agreement from the European Council and the UK Government. |
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We're fucked because we have a shit and inadequate government trying to carry out the "will of the people" that's what I was referring to. Life hasn't and won't change as far as I'm concerned, I'll still work my nuts off, pay my taxes and get on with things. Make no mistake, when I say "we're fucked" it doesn't mean I've chucked the towel in or think we're forever condemned to living in a black hole. I've said from day one every person that voted leave and thought we'd be coming up smelling of roses was utterly deluded and naïve for thinking so.
And since then the Government has moved on to publishing a 100 page 
Momo thinks Article 50 only applies to the Conservative Party. 
