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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:31:00 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:37:51 GMT
Working-class people in the UK can see a possibility that something might change for them if they vote to leave the EU. The women in east London and the men in the mining towns all tell me the worst thing is that things stay the same. The referendum has become a way in which they can have their say, and they are saying collectively that their lives have been better than they are today. And they are right. Shouting “racist” and “ignorant” at them louder and louder will not work – they have stopped listening. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/brexit-working-class-sick-racist-eu-referendum |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:43:48 GMT
Our economy is tiny compared to the EU’s. We therefore have less leverage. I love the UK. I hate Brexit. We don't need leverage, just fair cooperation and trade. We don't need to give away our sovereignty for Political and Economic union. We are as big as 19 EU countries combined economically. The EU has been disasterous for the young of Greece, Spain, Italy etc... many Europeans seem to want to come to the Uzk. "The trouble with Europe is that the EU’s drive towards ever closer union brings with it an urge to harmonise and integrate – and that brings a welter of regulation. The EU pulls off a remarkable feat. It is both too small and too large at the same time. It is too large to make a well functioning integrated political unit, but it is too small to make an integrated economic unit on its own. For the latter, the only unit that makes sense is the world – and of that, countries inside and outside the EU are already members." www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10792773/Britain-would-be-better-off-without-the-EUs-ever-closer-union.htmlYou’re quite naive if you think international trading arrangements require cooperation and that’s all. Being able to offer something (leverage) to the people you are negotiating with is the way to get what you want. The more you can give, you more you can get. It’s like buying anything. Generally if you have lots of money to give, you can buy what you want and your options are greater. The size of the EU market is a unique selling point we cannot offer anymore and that means we cannot expect as much in return. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:45:40 GMT
Working-class people in the UK can see a possibility that something might change for them if they vote to leave the EU. The women in east London and the men in the mining towns all tell me the worst thing is that things stay the same. The referendum has become a way in which they can have their say, and they are saying collectively that their lives have been better than they are today. And they are right. Shouting “racist” and “ignorant” at them louder and louder will not work – they have stopped listening. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/brexit-working-class-sick-racist-eu-referendumYes, it was a protest vote but it was protesting against the wrong thing. Nowhere else on earth regulates big businesses to the advantage of workers and consumers like in the EU. |
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Post by pearo on Oct 8, 2018 21:48:12 GMT
This appears to be indentical to the You Gov polls before the referendum, and we know what happened then. Oh and the You Gov poll that predicted a Conservative majority at the last general election, and we know what happened then too! |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:55:26 GMT
We don't need leverage, just fair cooperation and trade. We don't need to give away our sovereignty for Political and Economic union. We are as big as 19 EU countries combined economically. The EU has been disasterous for the young of Greece, Spain, Italy etc... many Europeans seem to want to come to the Uzk. "The trouble with Europe is that the EU’s drive towards ever closer union brings with it an urge to harmonise and integrate – and that brings a welter of regulation. The EU pulls off a remarkable feat. It is both too small and too large at the same time. It is too large to make a well functioning integrated political unit, but it is too small to make an integrated economic unit on its own. For the latter, the only unit that makes sense is the world – and of that, countries inside and outside the EU are already members." www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10792773/Britain-would-be-better-off-without-the-EUs-ever-closer-union.htmlYou’re quite naive if you think international trading arrangements require cooperation and that’s all. Being able to offer something (leverage) to the people you are negotiating with is the way to get what you want. The more you can give, you more you can get. It’s like buying anything. Generally if you have lots of money to give, you can buy what you want and your options are greater. The size of the EU market is a unique selling point we cannot offer anymore and that means we cannot expect as much in return. Fifth biggest economy. Many EU countries are struggling.... particularly without our contribution. Countries trade if they have something to offer or the means to buy. We have great historical links across the world not just vwithin the protectionist racket that has brainwashed you to its true purpose of Political and Economic union |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:58:29 GMT
Working-class people in the UK can see a possibility that something might change for them if they vote to leave the EU. The women in east London and the men in the mining towns all tell me the worst thing is that things stay the same. The referendum has become a way in which they can have their say, and they are saying collectively that their lives have been better than they are today. And they are right. Shouting “racist” and “ignorant” at them louder and louder will not work – they have stopped listening. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/brexit-working-class-sick-racist-eu-referendumYes, it was a protest vote but it was protesting against the wrong thing. Nowhere else on earth regulates big businesses to the advantage of workers and consumers like in the EU. Absolutely no reason that the UK could not introduce better workers rights. The EU bureacrats are not a magical exclusive super brainy caring group you know....just meglamaniacs who will not budge from ever closer union. Apparently the EU haven't done badly comparative to the G20 on reducing carbon emissions |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 22:01:06 GMT
You’re quite naive if you think international trading arrangements require cooperation and that’s all. Being able to offer something (leverage) to the people you are negotiating with is the way to get what you want. The more you can give, you more you can get. It’s like buying anything. Generally if you have lots of money to give, you can buy what you want and your options are greater. The size of the EU market is a unique selling point we cannot offer anymore and that means we cannot expect as much in return. Fifth biggest economy. Many EU countries are struggling.... particularly without our contribution. Countries trade if they have something to offer or the means to buy. We have great historical links across the world not just vwithin the protectionist racket that has brainwashed you to its true purpose of Political and Economic union Why would the UK (on its own) be able to negotiate better trade deals than the EU, which included the UK in all the trade deals it has negotiated? Your argument is completely illogical! |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 22:04:59 GMT
Fifth biggest economy. Many EU countries are struggling.... particularly without our contribution. Countries trade if they have something to offer or the means to buy. We have great historical links across the world not just vwithin the protectionist racket that has brainwashed you to its true purpose of Political and Economic union Why would the UK (on its own) be able to negotiate better trade deals than the EU, which included the UK in all the trade deals it has negotiated? Your argument is completely illogical! More flexibility to start with. The comparison is the UK and the EU without the UK and all the problems of Greece, Italian debt etc But of course the real issue is sovereignty, ever closer union, Political and Economic union. Trade deals are always possible between people who want to trade |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 22:06:54 GMT
Yes, it was a protest vote but it was protesting against the wrong thing. Nowhere else on earth regulates big businesses to the advantage of workers and consumers like in the EU. Absolutely no reason that the UK could not introduce better workers rights. The EU bureacrats are not a magical exclusive super brainy caring group you know....just meglamaniacs who will not budge from ever closer union. Apparently the EU haven't done badly comparative to the G20 on reducing carbon emissions And absolutely nothing is stopping a right wing government (like we have now) from cutting workers rights either. I’d prefer not to take the risk. You’re missing out the competition laws, the consumer rights and environmental laws that the EU has that we can get rid of if a government decides to legislate on the side of big businesses. You must trust the tories a lot more than I do. If you look at how they have legislated recently against the poorest and most vulnerable, why won’t they do the same with workers (oh wait, they have by stopping the EU heavily controlling zero hours contracts!!). |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 22:09:15 GMT
Why would the UK (on its own) be able to negotiate better trade deals than the EU, which included the UK in all the trade deals it has negotiated? Your argument is completely illogical! More flexibility to start with. The comparison is the UK and the EU without the UK and all the problems of Greece, Italian debt etc But of course the real issue is sovereignty, ever closer union, Political and Economic union. Trade deals are always possible between people who want to trade Well with that logic, the smallest and so most flexible nation on earth must have the best trade deals. Let’s see, who has the biggest free and flexible marketplace on earth and existing trade deals with the majority of the world....hmmmm.... oh yes, the EU! |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2018 22:35:06 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2018 22:40:11 GMT
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Oct 9, 2018 7:50:49 GMT
Remain is now just a comedy meme..... from the BBC  |
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Post by Clayton Wood on Oct 9, 2018 8:17:13 GMT
Lying on both sides of the debate Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. I predict Stoke City will win the Champions League this season. |
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Post by Northy on Oct 9, 2018 10:36:13 GMT
Lying on both sides of the debate Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. He says people are £900 worse off because of the Brexit vote, but he based that on a predictive wages increase before the vote, as like most predictions it's inaccurate, so he based the current wage figure against the prediction instead of an accurate figure. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 9, 2018 10:51:29 GMT
Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. He says people are £900 worse off because of the Brexit vote, but he based that on a predictive wages increase before the vote, as like most predictions it's inaccurate, so he based the current wage figure against the prediction instead of an accurate figure. 900 pounds I’d pay double that to be free of the Eu worth every penny Freedom is priceless |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 11:07:01 GMT
Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. I predict Stoke City will win the Champions League this season. We aren’t in it. But we are leaving the EU and the pound has devalued and the cost of living has gone up as a result. An example of a correct prediction by remainers that leavers claim is project fear when it is a simple fact. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 11:11:16 GMT
Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. He says people are £900 worse off because of the Brexit vote, but he based that on a predictive wages increase before the vote, as like most predictions it's inaccurate, so he based the current wage figure against the prediction instead of an accurate figure. Ok. You do understand he isn’t making a prediction there don’t you? He is saying we are £900 worse off because of the vote. That’s not a prediction. It may be a fact or it may be incorrect in which case it is a lie or misleading. Predictions cannot be lies because they are not incorrect to the person making the predictions knowledge as they have not happened. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 11:13:14 GMT
He says people are £900 worse off because of the Brexit vote, but he based that on a predictive wages increase before the vote, as like most predictions it's inaccurate, so he based the current wage figure against the prediction instead of an accurate figure. 900 pounds I’d pay double that to be free of the Eu worth every penny Freedom is priceless So you think you haven’t been free since we joined? Please explain how. The EU is based upon 4 freedoms afterall. We will be losing all four when we leave so arguably we have more freedom now than we will have when we leave. |
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Post by Northy on Oct 9, 2018 11:16:47 GMT
He says people are £900 worse off because of the Brexit vote, but he based that on a predictive wages increase before the vote, as like most predictions it's inaccurate, so he based the current wage figure against the prediction instead of an accurate figure. Ok. You do understand he isn’t making a prediction there don’t you? He is saying we are £900 worse off because of the vote. That’s not a prediction. It may be a fact or it may be incorrect in which case it is a lie or misleading. Predictions cannot be lies because they are not incorrect to the person making the predictions knowledge as they have not happened. I originally said he was lying, you were twisting it round to being a prediction, I'm reiterating he was lying. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 9, 2018 11:30:32 GMT
900 pounds I’d pay double that to be free of the Eu worth every penny Freedom is priceless So you think you haven’t been free since we joined? Please explain how. The EU is based upon 4 freedoms afterall. We will be losing all four when we leave so arguably we have more freedom now than we will have when we leave. The freedom to make our laws by the elected government of this country directly elected by the electorate of this country Any disputes settled in this country by judges appointed by this country The right to trade with who we want when we want The right to allow who we wish into the country levels set by this country The right to set economic foreign and defence policy for the interest of the electorate of this country and not the European project This is freedom I am British not European |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 9, 2018 12:07:48 GMT
I am British and European.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 12:56:53 GMT
Ok. You do understand he isn’t making a prediction there don’t you? He is saying we are £900 worse off because of the vote. That’s not a prediction. It may be a fact or it may be incorrect in which case it is a lie or misleading. Predictions cannot be lies because they are not incorrect to the person making the predictions knowledge as they have not happened. I originally said he was lying, you were twisting it round to being a prediction, I'm reiterating he was lying. Fine, I misunderstood. As long as you aren’t mixing up or comparing predictions with outrights lies. How much worse off are we each then because of the vote? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 12:58:13 GMT
So you think you haven’t been free since we joined? Please explain how. The EU is based upon 4 freedoms afterall. We will be losing all four when we leave so arguably we have more freedom now than we will have when we leave. The freedom to make our laws by the elected government of this country directly elected by the electorate of this country Any disputes settled in this country by judges appointed by this country The right to trade with who we want when we want The right to allow who we wish into the country levels set by this country The right to set economic foreign and defence policy for the interest of the electorate of this country and not the European project This is freedom I am British not European Ok, so I have some great news for you......we have all of that right now. |
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Post by shangamuzo on Oct 9, 2018 13:04:24 GMT
I originally said he was lying, you were twisting it round to being a prediction, I'm reiterating he was lying. Fine, I misunderstood. As long as you aren’t mixing up or comparing predictions with outrights lies. How much worse off are we each then because of the vote? That depends on where you're standing. If you're exporting substantially, on a lower pound you're doing better. Price inflation hasn't been that big yet as a result of higher import costs. We shall see how it pans out. |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 9, 2018 13:04:37 GMT
I predict Stoke City will win the Champions League this season. We aren’t in it. But we are leaving the EU and the pound has devalued and the cost of living has gone up as a result. An example of a correct prediction by remainers that leavers claim is project fear when it is a simple fact. This is of course the first known case of the pounds exchange rate ever moving or the cost of living going up (hint because of inflation it always does !!!), however lets go back to the actual predictions a vote to leave would trigger an immediate recession, a massive rise in unemployment and a punishment budget raising taxes these of course you ignore these but claim the same people are right in the forecasts because the exchange rate has moved. Some news on your favourite album  www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/marillion-clutching-at-straws-reissue/ |
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Post by shangamuzo on Oct 9, 2018 13:13:24 GMT
We aren’t in it. But we are leaving the EU and the pound has devalued and the cost of living has gone up as a result. An example of a correct prediction by remainers that leavers claim is project fear when it is a simple fact. This is of course the first known case of the pounds exchange rate ever moving or the cost of living going up (hint because of inflation it always does !!!), however lets go back to the actual predictions a vote to leave would trigger an immediate recession, a massive rise in unemployment and a punishment budget raising taxes these of course you ignore these but claim the same people are right in the forecasts because the exchange rate has moved. Some news on your favourite album www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/marillion-clutching-at-straws-reissue/ Cameron couldn't persuade us to stay in with the entire establishment on his side. But I give him great credit for giving us a Referendum-lousy Labour would never have given us one. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 13:30:59 GMT
Fine, I misunderstood. As long as you aren’t mixing up or comparing predictions with outrights lies. How much worse off are we each then because of the vote? That depends on where you're standing. If you're exporting substantially, on a lower pound you're doing better. Price inflation hasn't been that big yet as a result of higher import costs. We shall see how it pans out. I’m pretty sure the average person doesn’t export that much! We are obviously worse off since the vote. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 9, 2018 13:34:02 GMT
We aren’t in it. But we are leaving the EU and the pound has devalued and the cost of living has gone up as a result. An example of a correct prediction by remainers that leavers claim is project fear when it is a simple fact. This is of course the first known case of the pounds exchange rate ever moving or the cost of living going up (hint because of inflation it always does !!!), however lets go back to the actual predictions a vote to leave would trigger an immediate recession, a massive rise in unemployment and a punishment budget raising taxes these of course you ignore these but claim the same people are right in the forecasts because the exchange rate has moved. Some news on your favourite album www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/marillion-clutching-at-straws-reissue/ Absolutely. There were some outrageous claims by Osborne in particular which served to completely undermine the remain argument. But the economic trends of Brexit = bad for the economy has been correct. You’re ignoring the real world if you say otherwise. And remember, we haven’t even left yet so the outcome is yet to be seen. Why do you think inflation jumped out of interest? If you think it had nothing to do with the vote and massive drop in the value of the pound, you are again ignoring the real world. |
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