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Post by Northy on Oct 8, 2018 12:58:49 GMT
No different from some of the bulshit figures coming from the remainers The fact is... That bus slogan influenced a lot of voters. Regardless of it being factually incorrect it was deliberately misleading. I suspect that as much as 10% of the electorate were influenced by that slogan. As regards the "bullshit" coming from the remain campaign .. Quite simple really. We haven't left yet. The trouble will start next year. Projections from major manufacturers are frightening. You've chucked away forty years of considered and structured trading agreements in the whim of a protest vote, whipped up by a defunct ex conservative that thought that he could obtain power on the back of UKIP. Project Fear is going to turn into Project Reality soon. God Save the Queen. Probably similar to Mark Carney's speech and predictions splattered all over the mainstream news as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 13:17:47 GMT
My vote never about money either FYD. That is not an area in which Brexiteers had a monopoly of thought. Also, of course,the lying bus was clearly about money. A large, inflated sum of money which did not accurately represent the level of the UK contribution to the EU. And then the use of NHS logo itself; let's spend this large amount of money here instead. It was all discussed at the time unless you want to pretend the media ignored Farage saying the figure was a lie, as it is a lie to say £350m a week was ever promised to the NHS but keep rerunning the old arguments, 173 days and 5 hours to go till Brexit  I can't for the life of me see where it says 350m to be spent on the nhs There again I voted brexit |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 13:34:05 GMT
Perhaps its a case of won't see,not can't see. Its as clear as the stripes on a Stoke City shirt. Your argument, on this point,is a poor one.
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 13:44:27 GMT
As I wrote earlier FYD, the real issue was that even two days ago someone on here was trying to make out that the poster was "misunderstood" by some people. The bus poster was one of the big lies of the campaign, and there are still people shamelessly trying to justify and minimise its impact. I think it stank. I think it stinks even more when people try to claim two years later that others did not understand it.
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Post by Northy on Oct 8, 2018 16:17:23 GMT
As I wrote earlier FYD, the real issue was that even two days ago someone on here was trying to make out that the poster was "misunderstood" by some people. The bus poster was one of the big lies of the campaign, and there are still people shamelessly trying to justify and minimise its impact. I think it stank. I think it stinks even more when people try to claim two years later that others did not understand it. As misunderstood as Mark Carneys speech a couple of months before the vote ? Farage wasn't part of the EU vote team, he was kept away and said that. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 16:26:42 GMT
This is simply about someone who posted a few days ago about people who "misunderstood" the bus poster. I did not misunderstand it. Nor did many other people. It was a clear attempt at manipulating the vote (reasonable in itself) by linking two issues in people's minds (the UK contributions to the EU and the need for the NHS to have more funding). The message was clear, and not even hard to grasp. If the UK does not need to spend money on the EU, it can spend it on the NHS instead. My objection is that some people appear to want to claim that that is not an accurate interpretation of the bus poster.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 16:39:56 GMT
It’s just laughable you remain supporters are still going on about that bloody bus. As if it’s at all equatable to the goliathean level of support the remain campaign had behind it, including, most unforgivably, the bastard bbc that still to this day is doing everything within its power to undermine the vote.
The lemon infused stench of desperation is repugnant.
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 16:47:18 GMT
NO.The bus was brought up on this forum, on this thread, by a Brexit voter, this last weekend.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 8, 2018 16:58:57 GMT
This is simply about someone who posted a few days ago about people who "misunderstood" the bus poster. I did not misunderstand it. Nor did many other people. It was a clear attempt at manipulating the vote (reasonable in itself) by linking two issues in people's minds (the UK contributions to the EU and the need for the NHS to have more funding). The message was clear, and not even hard to grasp. If the UK does not need to spend money on the EU, it can spend it on the NHS instead. My objection is that some people appear to want to claim that that is not an accurate interpretation of the bus poster. Actually what you have written is almost an accurate interpretation for once, the key bit being it can spend, not it will spend, or there is a promise to spend £350m a week on the NHS. The bus makes an entirely reasonable point that we send money to the EU who then tell us how we can spend some of OUR money whilst also keeping a large amount of OUR money, if we leave the EU we get to choose how we spend all of OUR money, funding the NHS more being one option. Nowhere but nowhere does it say they would spend £350m extra a week on the NHS, if people really believed a campaign who had no power to make funding promises was going to spend this £350m a week on the NHS I would assume Leave would have polled at 80%+ The remain campaign offered nothing but threats of war, famine and chlorinated chicken if we even dared vote for brexit, they could have made a case for the benefits of EU membership but instead choose fear and lost. howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6Tick tick tick can't come soon enough for me now |
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 8, 2018 17:07:23 GMT
Perhaps its a case of won't see,not can't see. Its as clear as the stripes on a Stoke City shirt. Your argument, on this point,is a poor one. Not really you later post concedes Fraise was right- possibly only the first or second time I have written those words in nearly 10 years on here  You say in a below post can spend not will spend or promise to spend, equally the bus could have said more money for painting police cars rainbow colours to celebrate LGBT awareness days or lollipop ladies people etc etc |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 17:09:30 GMT
Now that is a disappointing response. The bus poster did NOT say.. "We can spend the money on the NHS or something else that we fancy"... IT said what it said. Don't pay the EU, spend it on the NHS instead. The two statements are clear and unequivocal.They follow each other like a white stripe follows a red stripe on the shirt. I was not misled or swayed by such propaganda as I have made clear. It is reasonable though,to assume that some people saw the NHS logo, and thought that would be a good use of their vote.
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 19:13:15 GMT
And the question then is, why did the bus poster not mention spending money on painting Police cars rainbow colours etc? If it is true, as people suggest, that any money freed up could be spent as the government wished, why did the bus poster make a point of singling out the NHS and painting it on the bus in logo form? Is it just possible that whoever designed the poster wanted people to think... Ooh there's a good idea. Let's leave the EU, save a lot of money, and spend it on the NHS.
The bus poster maybe should have said: If and when we leave the EU, and pay a leaving fee of £39billion, there may or may not be some money left over in the future. We are not the government, so we cannot say how any money saved will be spent. We would suggest that some of the money is spent on the NHS, but of course there may be other priorities. Of course, things may not go well, and we cannot promise that there will be substantial savings.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 19:30:56 GMT
Actually there is a huge difference. The remainer figures are projections and so are educated guesses. The amount of money we pay to the EU (net of the rebate) and so potentially available to pay into the NHS upon leaving is a fact. It was not hard for Boris to put the correct figure on the bus. He chose not to. Educated guess  It's a made up figure based on massive assumptions on a unknown deal and the impact an unknown deal would have. You may as well have asked Gypsy Rose Lee to produce the figures. Which is different to lying about facts, which is what Boris did. At least the trends predicted by the remainers has been correct. You are never going to get precise figures 100% accurate. But the trends have been absolutely spot on. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 19:34:46 GMT
As I wrote earlier FYD, the real issue was that even two days ago someone on here was trying to make out that the poster was "misunderstood" by some people. The bus poster was one of the big lies of the campaign, and there are still people shamelessly trying to justify and minimise its impact. I think it stank. I think it stinks even more when people try to claim two years later that others did not understand it. As misunderstood as Mark Carneys speech a couple of months before the vote ? Farage wasn't part of the EU vote team, he was kept away and said that. You are comparing apples and pears. Economic predictions (which have got the downward trend spot on) are very different to simply lying about facts (the figure on the bus). |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 19:57:39 GMT
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Post by pearo on Oct 8, 2018 20:26:19 GMT
And the question then is, why did the bus poster not mention spending money on painting Police cars rainbow colours etc? If it is true, as people suggest, that any money freed up could be spent as the government wished, why did the bus poster make a point of singling out the NHS and painting it on the bus in logo form? Is it just possible that whoever designed the poster wanted people to think... Ooh there's a good idea. Let's leave the EU, save a lot of money, and spend it on the NHS. The bus poster maybe should have said: If and when we leave the EU, and pay a leaving fee of £39billion, there may or may not be some money left over in the future. We are not the government, so we cannot say how any money saved will be spent. We would suggest that some of the money is spent on the NHS, but of course there may be other priorities. Of course, things may not go well, and we cannot promise that there will be substantial savings. If that had been the slogan it would have needed to be painted on a freight train not a bus. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 8, 2018 20:37:26 GMT
I agree, but it may have been more accurate and helpful.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 20:38:22 GMT
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Post by Northy on Oct 8, 2018 20:44:39 GMT
As misunderstood as Mark Carneys speech a couple of months before the vote ? Farage wasn't part of the EU vote team, he was kept away and said that. You are comparing apples and pears. Economic predictions (which have got the downward trend spot on) are very different to simply lying about facts (the figure on the bus). Lying on both sides of the debate |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 20:45:57 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 20:53:41 GMT
"We see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”. With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/1048) predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”. It would therefore become the duty of politicians “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”. Politicians of all parties should be careful to conceal the fact that controversial laws originated in Brussels. By this means it might be possible to preserve the illusion that the British government was still sovereign, “for this century at least” – by which time it would no longer be possible for us to leave. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9233096/Europe-alienates-us-all-as-foretold-40-years-ago.html |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:06:36 GMT
You know as part of the eu, we already have a trade deal/are in advanced negotiations for one with 9 out of 11of those nations. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:07:20 GMT
You know as part of the eu, we already have a trade deal/are in advanced negotiations for one with 9 out of 11of those nations. And can do so independently |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:07:57 GMT
You are comparing apples and pears. Economic predictions (which have got the downward trend spot on) are very different to simply lying about facts (the figure on the bus). Lying on both sides of the debate Please explain how a prediction can be a lie. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:08:42 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:10:04 GMT
You know as part of the eu, we already have a trade deal/are in advanced negotiations for one with 9 out of 11of those nations. And can do do independently Yep, but with far less leverage than we currently have and we have to waste time and money to negotiate a deal again. Ripping up trade deals with most of the world so we can negotiate new ones is stupid. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:11:29 GMT
And can do do independently Yep, but with far less leverage than we currently have and we have to waste time and money to negotiate a deal again. Ripping up trade deals with most of the world so we can negotiate new ones is stupid. I don't think that the quote says that, as the fifth biggest economy in the world. You don't like the UK do you?...the EU has plenty of economic problems |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 8, 2018 21:18:27 GMT
Yep, but with far less leverage than we currently have and we have to waste time and money to negotiate a deal again. Ripping up trade deals with most of the world so we can negotiate new ones is stupid. I don't think that the quote says that, as the fifth biggest economy in the world. You don't like the UK do you?...the EU has plenty of economic problems Our economy is tiny compared to the EU’s. We therefore have less leverage. I love the UK. I hate Brexit. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 8, 2018 21:23:27 GMT
I don't think that the quote says that, as the fifth biggest economy in the world. You don't like the UK do you?...the EU has plenty of economic problems Our economy is tiny compared to the EU’s. We therefore have less leverage. I love the UK. I hate Brexit. We don't need leverage, just fair cooperation and trade. We don't need to give away our sovereignty for Political and Economic union. We are as big as 19 EU countries combined economically. The EU has been disasterous for the young of Greece, Spain, Italy etc... many Europeans seem to want to come to the Uzk. "The trouble with Europe is that the EU’s drive towards ever closer union brings with it an urge to harmonise and integrate – and that brings a welter of regulation. The EU pulls off a remarkable feat. It is both too small and too large at the same time. It is too large to make a well functioning integrated political unit, but it is too small to make an integrated economic unit on its own. For the latter, the only unit that makes sense is the world – and of that, countries inside and outside the EU are already members." www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10792773/Britain-would-be-better-off-without-the-EUs-ever-closer-union.html |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 8, 2018 21:24:46 GMT
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It's a made up figure based on massive assumptions on a unknown deal and the impact an unknown deal would have. You may as well have asked Gypsy Rose Lee to produce the figures.
