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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 18:42:47 GMT
I think when you voted leave, you thought you were voted for something more than “to leave the EU”. You weren’t. The clue was in the referendum question. The clue was also in the mixed information from both sides as to what a leave outcome would mean. The clue has also been in the 2 and a bit years since and the fact we still don’t have any clear agreement on withdrawal terms and only very, very recently had a proposal on withdrawal terms. The question was very clear . The problem has been those who can't accept that they may not always get what they want....you know those who don't actually believe in democracy. I have never ever voted for the winner of any election, same for Khan becoming London mayor. You don’t know what you voted for and you failed to answer me 100 times when asked you what the detail of what you voted for is. Because we still don’t know. What you voted for is different to other leave voters, that’s for sure |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 18:43:48 GMT
Very different. It is an antidemocratic expensive centralist bureacratic organisation that has usurped power and has expansionist ambitions. I think that the others are politicians or Political parties who gain their main power through elections. It’s more democratic than here or the US, it’s less bureaucratic than here, it has expanded in size but certainly not in terms of powers over recent years. It has led to unprecedented cooperation, economic and social progression and it has led to unprecedented peace and cooperation. It is big, slow and clunky. It isn’t perfect. It isn’t 100% democratic (nowhere is). It is expensive but not when you factor in net gains. And above all, it regulates big businesses and protects consumers and workers and the environment more than anywhere else on earth. Coupled with human rights legislation, it is the best place to have a family, be gay, be religious, seek justice, avoid torture. It will undoubtedly be one of the biggest mistakes made by any country in the modern world to leave. No it isn't democratic at all. It isn't meant to be and wasn't set up as such . The EU is much more than a pseudo parliament of course and includes embassies, commission, the court , publicity etc. One of the biggest concerns tricks ever. |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 18:45:43 GMT
So what you are saying is these people are admitting they made a mistake in their original assessment of entry into the Euro-zone and have since changed their position.i know a far few people who voted leave and would now vote remain, hindsight is often the best course to follow. And as for your opinion of who is trustworthy and who is not you voted with Boris so i question your judgement No , they have far from admitted it . Most, if not all, still think that we should join the Euro....which is the direction of travel and the logical position of Remainers like yourself.Just shows you that the wisest can be wrong. Nothing to be afraid of in arguing to join, the majority of EU countries have done do...,.and are now trapped , effectively by rule by Germany. Your position is a bit inconsistent. No idea about the legitimacy and credentials of the following website but it does outline some arguments for joining the Euro...... which we would be required to do if we rejoined the EU....and logically it is the position of those who argued to Remain and to continue on the path of ever closer union. www.economicshelp.org/blog/771/euro/should-uk-join-the-euro/I agree with the conclusion: Conclusion Membership of the Euro has potentially very serious consequences, and significantly increases the risk of deflation, recession and a debt crisis. These potential problems far outweigh the small benefits of joining. You must have bionic hearing as i have never heard anyone even mention the subject yet alone advocate joining for many long years ? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 18:47:15 GMT
The question was very clear . The problem has been those who can't accept that they may not always get what they want....you know those who don't actually believe in democracy. I have never ever voted for the winner of any election, same for Khan becoming London mayor. You don’t know what you voted for and you failed to answer me 100 times when asked you what the detail of what you voted for is. Because we still don’t know. What you voted for is different to other leave voters, that’s for sure I voted to leave the EU. It's simple. It was on the ballot paper. And the government wrote to me explaining it. And it was well debated and clarified. And I've researched it , been to the EU many times now and wanted to leave for over 10/15 years since I realised that I had been lied to about the " common market" ( see Juncker) If YOU didn't understand it you should not have voted |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 18:48:54 GMT
No , they have far from admitted it . Most, if not all, still think that we should join the Euro....which is the direction of travel and the logical position of Remainers like yourself.Just shows you that the wisest can be wrong. Nothing to be afraid of in arguing to join, the majority of EU countries have done do...,.and are now trapped , effectively by rule by Germany. Your position is a bit inconsistent. No idea about the legitimacy and credentials of the following website but it does outline some arguments for joining the Euro...... which we would be required to do if we rejoined the EU....and logically it is the position of those who argued to Remain and to continue on the path of ever closer union. www.economicshelp.org/blog/771/euro/should-uk-join-the-euro/I agree with the conclusion: Conclusion Membership of the Euro has potentially very serious consequences, and significantly increases the risk of deflation, recession and a debt crisis. These potential problems far outweigh the small benefits of joining. You must have bionic hearing as i have never heard anyone even mention the subject yet alone for many long years ? By the subject I take it that you mean the Euro. Therein lies your problem. The Eurogroup mention it constantly. The exchange rate is monitored daily. You need to look at what is happening. Most countries in the EU use it every day |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 18:50:02 GMT
I have never ever voted for the winner of any election, same for Khan becoming London mayor. You don’t know what you voted for and you failed to answer me 100 times when asked you what the detail of what you voted for is. Because we still don’t know. What you voted for is different to other leave voters, that’s for sure I voted to leave the EU. It's simple. It was on the ballot paper. And the government wrote to me explaining it. And it was well debated and clarified. And I've researched it , been to the EU many times now and wanted to leave for over 10/15 years since I realised that I had been lied to about the " common market" ( see Juncker) If YOU didn't understand it you should not have voted Biggest lie of all was on the BIG RED BUS,surprised you missed that  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 18:55:02 GMT
I voted to leave the EU. It's simple. It was on the ballot paper. And the government wrote to me explaining it. And it was well debated and clarified. And I've researched it , been to the EU many times now and wanted to leave for over 10/15 years since I realised that I had been lied to about the " common market" ( see Juncker) If YOU didn't understand it you should not have voted Biggest lie of all was on the BIG RED BUS,surprised you missed that No the entry into the Common market and the transformation without consent into ever closer union was the biggest lie. I'm still not sure about your "arguments" for not joining the Euro. Has the EU got it right or wrong on the Euro. Don't sit on the fence. Be brave. Are you a secret Eurosceptic? |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 18:59:00 GMT
You must have bionic hearing as i have never heard anyone even mention the subject yet alone for many long years ? By the subject I take it that you mean the Euro. Therein lies your problem. The Eurogroup mention it constantly. The exchange rate is monitored daily. You need to look at what is happening. Most countries in the EU use it every day I do monitor the exchange rate on a regular basis since 23rd.of June 2016 when the isolationist voted leave and caused the £ to slide in value pushing every-ones cost of living up,as for politicians talking of joining the Euro when if ever has it been on any parties manifesto? |
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Post by smallthorner on Oct 1, 2018 19:03:25 GMT
Page 22 of The Sentinel tonight will show you a big proportion of Stoke people want a second referendum and feel that they have been misled.
These are people who voted Brexit.
If the "Brexit capital of the UK" is starting to have second thoughts then the rest of the country must be ready for REF2.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:04:44 GMT
By the subject I take it that you mean the Euro. Therein lies your problem. The Eurogroup mention it constantly. The exchange rate is monitored daily. You need to look at what is happening. Most countries in the EU use it every day I do monitor the exchange rate on a regular basis since 23rd.of June 2016 when the isolationist voted leave and caused the £ to slide in value pushing every-ones cost of living up,as for politicians talking of joining the Euro when if ever has it been on any parties manifesto? So the Euro is an important factor for the EU. Why shouldn't we join if it is so better than the pound? A bit mixed up there aren't you? |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 19:06:04 GMT
Send Bigjohnritchie a copy,probably deny he received it though
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:06:17 GMT
I voted to leave the EU. It's simple. It was on the ballot paper. And the government wrote to me explaining it. And it was well debated and clarified. And I've researched it , been to the EU many times now and wanted to leave for over 10/15 years since I realised that I had been lied to about the " common market" ( see Juncker) If YOU didn't understand it you should not have voted Biggest lie of all was on the BIG RED BUS,surprised you missed that To quote yourself "Do you never tire of peddling the same s**t it is set to be a disaster" |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:08:03 GMT
Send Bigjohnritchie a copy,probably deny he received it though Please send it, I'll have a look... have you had a look at the five presidents' report? |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 19:12:11 GMT
I do monitor the exchange rate on a regular basis since 23rd.of June 2016 when the isolationist voted leave and caused the £ to slide in value pushing every-ones cost of living up,as for politicians talking of joining the Euro when if ever has it been on any parties manifesto? So the Euro is an important factor for the EU. Why shouldn't we join if it is so better than the pound? A bit mixed up there aren't you? What do you not grasp about membership of the Euro not being compulsory? i have already stated it is not what i want or what i think the country needs and the EU leave membership or not up to the individual countries,and you say i am mixed up,by the way the tide is turning in Stoke now or do you ignore what your local paper say`s aswell (page 22 i believe  |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 19:13:15 GMT
Blatant lies are not s**t they are blatant LIES.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 19:13:56 GMT
It’s more democratic than here or the US, it’s less bureaucratic than here, it has expanded in size but certainly not in terms of powers over recent years. It has led to unprecedented cooperation, economic and social progression and it has led to unprecedented peace and cooperation. It is big, slow and clunky. It isn’t perfect. It isn’t 100% democratic (nowhere is). It is expensive but not when you factor in net gains. And above all, it regulates big businesses and protects consumers and workers and the environment more than anywhere else on earth. Coupled with human rights legislation, it is the best place to have a family, be gay, be religious, seek justice, avoid torture. It will undoubtedly be one of the biggest mistakes made by any country in the modern world to leave. No it isn't democratic at all. It isn't meant to be and wasn't set up as such . The EU is much more than a pseudo parliament of course and includes embassies, commission, the court , publicity etc. One of the biggest concerns tricks ever. It’s far, far more democratic than here. That’s an undeniable fact when you compare just 28 unelected law makers with over 700 and well over 50% over here. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 19:15:54 GMT
I have never ever voted for the winner of any election, same for Khan becoming London mayor. You don’t know what you voted for and you failed to answer me 100 times when asked you what the detail of what you voted for is. Because we still don’t know. What you voted for is different to other leave voters, that’s for sure I voted to leave the EU. It's simple. It was on the ballot paper. And the government wrote to me explaining it. And it was well debated and clarified. And I've researched it , been to the EU many times now and wanted to leave for over 10/15 years since I realised that I had been lied to about the " common market" ( see Juncker) If YOU didn't understand it you should not have voted And we are back where we started. You must be delighted that May is delivering exactly what you voted for then. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:16:32 GMT
So the Euro is an important factor for the EU. Why shouldn't we join if it is so better than the pound? A bit mixed up there aren't you? What do you not grasp about membership of the Euro not being compulsory? i have already stated it is not what i want or what i think the country needs and the EU leave membership or not up to the individual countries,and you say i am mixed up,by the way the tide is turning in Stoke now or do you ignore what your local paper say`s aswell (page 22 i believe [/quote What you don't grasp is that the Eurogroup is the powerhouse within the EU. Also you don't grasp that the EU project does not stand still....the direction of travel is ever closer union, at which point we will be required to join the Euro. New members must join. By all means send me page 22 of the sentinel....bearing in mind that we have already had the Referendum, we are now talking about if we are genuinely leaving |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:17:06 GMT
No it isn't democratic at all. It isn't meant to be and wasn't set up as such . The EU is much more than a pseudo parliament of course and includes embassies, commission, the court , publicity etc. One of the biggest concerns tricks ever. It’s far, far more democratic than here. That’s an undeniable fact when you compare just 28 unelected law makers with over 700 and well over 50% over here. No it isn't...it isn't just about law makers in any case |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 1, 2018 19:17:07 GMT
Having become more and more frustrated at the lack of movement in the Brexit discussion and the continued discussion of whether leaving the EU does actually mean we have left the EU, I am delighted to see that the discussion has moved on. Although I was kind of hoping it would move forwards, and not backwards to talk about whether the UK should've joined the single currency. Still, I look forward to March 2019 when we leave the EU, by which time we'll probably be discussing the rights and wrongs of the Treaty of Rome. Oh well, movement is movement I guess  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:18:45 GMT
Having become more and more frustrated at the lack of movement in the Brexit discussion and the continued discussion of whether leaving the EU does actually mean we have left the EU, I am delighted to see that the discussion has moved on. Although I was kind of hoping it would move forwards, and not backwards to talk about whether the UK should've joined the single currency. Still, I look forward to March 2019 when we leave the EU, by which time we'll probably be discussing the rights and wrongs of the Treaty of Rome. Oh well, movement is movement I guess Do you think that we should have joined the Euro Rip c. Or that we should join? |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 19:19:19 GMT
It’s far, far more democratic than here. That’s an undeniable fact when you compare just 28 unelected law makers with over 700 and well over 50% over here. No it isn't...it isn't just about law makers in any case Oh yes it is, a bit early for a panto routine isn`t it |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:24:18 GMT
No it isn't...it isn't just about law makers in any case Oh yes it is, a bit early for a panto routine isn`t it It really annoys me when shops put their Christmas stuff out early. What do you think then . Fully members of the EU then ...join the Euro...or Eurosceptic and stay out....and why? Had the EU got the Euro wrong? I wonder if Greece or Italy would still be in the EU now if they had not been controlled by Germany through the Euro? What do you think? |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 19:26:43 GMT
Oh yes it is, a bit early for a panto routine isn`t it It really annoys me when shops put their Christmas stuff out early. What do you think then . Fully members of the EU then ...join the Euro...or Eurosceptic and stay out....and why? Had the EU got the Euro wrong? I wonder if Greece or Italy would still be in the EU now if they had not been controlled by Germany through the Euro? What do you think? I can now see why you voted for Bonkers Boris . |
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Post by smallthorner on Oct 1, 2018 19:26:54 GMT
No it isn't...it isn't just about law makers in any case Oh yes it is, a bit early for a panto routine isn`t it Overwhelming support for a Peoples Vote REF2 skem. Richard Ault ... top reporter signed it off ... so no bulls*t ... |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:28:18 GMT
Oh yes it is, a bit early for a panto routine isn`t it Overwhelming support for a Peoples Vote REF2 skem. Richard Ault ... top reporter signed it off ... so no bulls*t ... So no answer to the Euro issue. Do you really believe in Political and Economic union...the purpose of the EU |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:28:57 GMT
It really annoys me when shops put their Christmas stuff out early. What do you think then . Fully members of the EU then ...join the Euro...or Eurosceptic and stay out....and why? Had the EU got the Euro wrong? I wonder if Greece or Italy would still be in the EU now if they had not been controlled by Germany through the Euro? What do you think? I can now see why you voted for Bonkers Boris . I didn't. I voted to leave the EU |
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Post by smallthorner on Oct 1, 2018 19:36:33 GMT
Overwhelming support for a Peoples Vote REF2 skem. Richard Ault ... top reporter signed it off ... so no bulls*t ... So no answer to the Euro issue. Do you really believe in Political and Economic union...the purpose of the EU Just letting you know what the people of Stoke are thinking Big John The Sentinel wouldn't publish this without some hard facts. You can sniff all you want about the "bus" message but I know loads of people who are peed off that it was a blatant piece of clever spin. The NHS is a very important factor and if the rumours about American involvement in the service post Brexit are true... it will cause a riot. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 19:37:56 GMT
So no answer to the Euro issue. Do you really believe in Political and Economic union...the purpose of the EU Just letting you know what the people of Stoke are thinking Big John The Sentinel wouldn't publish this without some hard facts. You can sniff all you want about the "bus" message but I know loads of people who are peed off that it was a blatant piece of clever spin. The NHS is a very important factor and if the rumours about American involvement in the service post Brexit are true... it will cause a riot. I've not seen the Sentinel stuff. You're still not clear about the Euro...a fundamental part of the EU. Oh and did the bus cause you to vote to leave. I suppose it persuaded everyone else but not you. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 19:38:57 GMT
It’s far, far more democratic than here. That’s an undeniable fact when you compare just 28 unelected law makers with over 700 and well over 50% over here. No it isn't...it isn't just about law makers in any case No it isn’t just about law makers, it’s about the electoral system. PR to elect MEPs and the far less representative and therefore less democratic first past the post system for MPs. What else is democracy about if not the electoral system and electing the people who make our laws. Because at the moment the UK is looking extremely undemocratic compared with the EU |
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