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Post by Northy on Oct 1, 2018 15:35:42 GMT
No Oggy We've had a referendum, a people's vote. We voted to leave the EU. The question was made clear. No evidence that Leavers have changed their minds. Plenty of evidence that Remainers can't accept the democratic result and wish to undermine it. We need to deliver BREXIT. You must be delighted then because that is precisely what May has done from day 1. She was instructed to leave the EU and that is what she is doing. She was not instructed to never, ever agree anything ever again with the EU. Not even Farage, Dacre or Rees-Mogg would see that as a sensible way forward. Why are leave voters unhappy that May is delivering precisely what they voted for? Is it because the referendum question was wholly insufficient? I met a leave voter the other day. He is full of regret for his vote and said he wants to vote again and this time he would vote to remain. Ive met people who voted to stay in but now want us out, it works both ways. May isn't delivering what people voted for. Chequers would see us bound by EU rules on goods and farming, effectively staying in the customs union, UK still responsible for collecting EU tariffs and implementing EU trade policy for their goods passing through the UK. |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 15:53:54 GMT
Do you never tire of peddling the same s**t it is set to be a disaster. Unfortunately the argument has to be continually made. You are right though we should not have to make it. As an aside, developing the shit a bit, Do you think we should go full monty then and join the Euro? I am not in favour of the Euro for no other reason than it keeps us a little on the outside,a bit like driving on the left,we are also the only member with passport checks (which sort of negates the argument the EU tell us what we can do)but i do feel that the way the world is we are better being in the EU than outside.leaving causes so many more problems and costs for the average person than remaining will ever do |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 15:56:18 GMT
Unfortunately the argument has to be continually made. You are right though we should not have to make it. As an aside, developing the shit a bit, Do you think we should go full monty then and join the Euro? I am not in favour of the Euro for no other reason than it keeps us a little on the outside,a bit like driving on the left,we are also the only member with passport checks (which sort of negates the argument the EU tell us what we can do)but i do feel that the way the world is we are better being in the EU than outside.leaving causes so many more problems and costs for the average person than remaining will ever do What's wrong with being fully in the EU? It's a good thing, that's what they want and it shows our full cooperation. We can trust them. May as well be fully in surely or are you a bit Eurosceptic? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 15:58:37 GMT
I am not in favour of the Euro for no other reason than it keeps us a little on the outside,a bit like driving on the left,we are also the only member with passport checks (which sort of negates the argument the EU tell us what we can do)but i do feel that the way the world is we are better being in the EU than outside.leaving causes so many more problems and costs for the average person than remaining will ever do What's wrong with being fully in the EU? It's a good thing, that's what they want and it shows our full cooperation. We can trust them. May as well be fully in surely or are you a bit Eurosceptic? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 16:01:06 GMT
What's wrong with being fully in the EU? It's a good thing, that's what they want and it shows our full cooperation. We can trust them. May as well be fully in surely or are you a bit Eurosceptic? I do think that a few of those on the left Fraise wait to see which way the wind is blowing and then go with what seems like the winners |
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 16:04:33 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce.What we had before was a bloody good deal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 16:04:37 GMT
I’d heard a few days ago that may has already done a deal with the eu....is this true?
If true, I can only assume all that’s happening at the minute is sabre rattling theatrics to make the leave side believe we’ve won something.
Apparently The deal will be revealed in November and there’ll be one or two more concession
It was never going to happen was it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 16:06:17 GMT
I do think that a few of those on the left Fraise wait to see which way the wind is blowing and then go with what seems like the winners Or they see no further than Tory hatred.....can understand that but, surely they could open their eyes to how bad the European Union is |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 16:07:31 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce. What we had before was a bloody good deal.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 16:13:32 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce.What we had before was a bloody good deal. Perhaps you need to have a look at the five presidents' report emphasising the centrality of the Euro in the European project. The power lies in the unminuted Eurogroup( and in the secret pre-meetings), obviously the Euro can't fail or else the EU fails. A good mechanism of monetary ( and Political) control. The report makes the direction of travel until 2025 clear...ever closer union... It's a very precarious position to be in the club, propping it up, but not FULLY in. All contributions but no benefits. The way that the EU has gone about the " negotiations" clearly shows the organisation to be our rivals not partners. And that does not refer to the ordinary workers across Europe. ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en |
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Post by Northy on Oct 1, 2018 16:23:39 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce. What we had before was a bloody good deal. The EU account system: - You give me £10 I'll Keep £2 for my nice big wages and nice fat pension I'll give £4 to other people for their benefits, and use the rest to go on a holiday to Strasbourg every month. I'll give £2 to french and Italian farmers but dont want proof they've used it for purpose I'll give you £2 back and tell you what you can spend it on but you must put our flag on it and say it's our money. Undemocratic leaders and the accounts have never been signed off. All that's a bloody good deal isn't ? |
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Post by capto on Oct 1, 2018 16:30:23 GMT
Aunty Hilary #FBPE #brexit thoughts @atatimelikethis · Leaver on BBC, "Come what may, somehow we'll survive brexit" My how the bar has fallen. brexitfactbase.com/pdfs/UKTradeWTO.pdfNick Reeves #FinalSayForAll #FBPE @nickreeves9876 · #Brexit is about a lying, cheating gang of rich bastards who will use any trick and cause any amount of suffering in order to slash their tax bills and tear up health, safety, environmental and workplace regulations which eat into their profits. #PeoplesVote #CPC18 Vytenis AndriukaitisVerified account @v_Andriukaitis Vytenis Andriukaitis Retweeted BBC Politics Dear @jeremy_Hunt I was born in Soviet gulag and been imprisoned by KGB a few times in my life. Happy to brief you on the main differences between #EU and Soviet Union. And also why we escaped the #USSR Anytime. Whatever helps. 1. For every £1.00 (0.6% of GDP) we contribute to the EU, the country earns over £10 from membership 2. For every £10 the UK earns, 82%, so £8-20 goes to the top 1% of the population. 3. Everything quitters, leavers, brexiteers, far-right, MSM etc you about the EU is lies 4. Ask the question - why would they lie? |
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Post by capto on Oct 1, 2018 16:31:37 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce. What we had before was a bloody good deal.The EU account system: - You give me £10 I'll Keep £2 for my nice big wages and nice fat pension I'll give £4 to other people for their benefits, and use the rest to go on a holiday to Strasbourg every month. I'll give £2 to french and Italian farmers but dont want proof they've used it for purpose I'll give you £2 back and tell you what you can spend it on but you must put our flag on it and say it's our money. Undemocratic leaders and the accounts have never been signed off. All that's a bloody good deal isn't ? that's the sort of simplification that suits a big red bus. quitters = liars. 1. For every £1.00 (0.6% of GDP) we contribute to the EU, the country earns over £10 from membership 2. For every £10 the UK earns, 82%, so £8-20 goes to the top 1% of the population. 3. Everything quitters, leavers, brexiteers, far-right, MSM etc you about the EU is lies 4. Ask the question - why would they lie? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 16:38:42 GMT
My one wish is we go back to the people , set the reason`s for and against being EU members with NO LIES from either side (and i firmly believe people now realise just what is at stake) and stop this Brexit farce.What we had before was a bloody good deal. A small snippet from the report for you....but I guess it doesn't matter what the EU says it intends to do ....as long as we are safely inside. Surely you should be arguing for us to get fully on board with the project?.....Cherry Picking? From the report: "The euro is more than just a currency. It is a political and economic project. Progress must happen on four fronts: first, towards a genuine Economic Union that ensures each economy has the structural features to prosper within the Monetary Union. Second, towards a Financial Union that guarantees the integrity of our currency across the Monetary Union and increases risk-sharing with the private sector. This means completing the Banking Union and accelerating the Capital Markets Union. Third, towards a Fiscal Union that delivers both fiscal sustainability and fiscal stabilisation. And finally, towards a Political Union that provides the foundation for all of the above through genuine democratic accountability, legitimacy and institutional strengthening." |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:08:12 GMT
The EU account system: - You give me £10 I'll Keep £2 for my nice big wages and nice fat pension I'll give £4 to other people for their benefits, and use the rest to go on a holiday to Strasbourg every month. I'll give £2 to french and Italian farmers but dont want proof they've used it for purpose I'll give you £2 back and tell you what you can spend it on but you must put our flag on it and say it's our money. Undemocratic leaders and the accounts have never been signed off. All that's a bloody good deal isn't ? that's the sort of simplification that suits a big red bus. quitters = liars. 1. For every £1.00 (0.6% of GDP) we contribute to the EU, the country earns over £10 from membership 2. For every £10 the UK earns, 82%, so £8-20 goes to the top 1% of the population. 3. Everything quitters, leavers, brexiteers, far-right, MSM etc you about the EU is lies 4. Ask the question - why would they lie? Did you vote Leave because of the bus c Capto? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:08:47 GMT
Unfortunately the argument has to be continually made. You are right though we should not have to make it. As an aside, developing the shit a bit, Do you think we should go full monty then and join the Euro? I am not in favour of the Euro for no other reason than it keeps us a little on the outside,a bit like driving on the left,we are also the only member with passport checks (which sort of negates the argument the EU tell us what we can do)but i do feel that the way the world is we are better being in the EU than outside.leaving causes so many more problems and costs for the average person than remaining will ever do You have some big Remainers who would agree with you Skem. The great Labour Prime Minister and the Tory big beast arr clear that we should be part of monetary union. May 17 2000 During question time, the prime minister insisted he supported a statement by the then Northern Ireland secretary, Peter Mandelson, that business would continue to suffer while Britain remained outside the single currency.' www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/16/euro.euThe big names backing Remain want you to forget how so many of them pushed for Britain to join the euro...... "Some of the most influential politicians in the 1990s and 2000s were fervently pro single currency. From Danny Alexander and Paddy Ashdown, to Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, alongside Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, and Chris Patten. At the same time, supposed key dispensers of financial and business wisdom in the country such as the Financial Times and the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) were also making the case for the euro" www.independent.co.uk/voices/remaining-in-the-eu-would-be-a-disaster-for-britain-just-like-the-euro-a7059326.htmlAnd the Independent continues " Those who were the most fervent European integrationists have now been proven wrong, while those who leaned more to the sceptical side were vindicated as correct. This patchy record on the economy upsets the whole idea that the Remain camp is the side of economic wisdom: had we listened to them ten years ago, Britain’s economy would be in a greater mess than we could imagine. Perhaps we should not be so quick to assume the Remain camp are to be most trusted when it comes to the economic implications of the UK's EU membership." |
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Post by xchpotter on Oct 1, 2018 17:15:07 GMT
Every side will say they know someone who has changed their mind to agree with them so it suits their opinion.......take it all with a pinch of salt, just like whether it will be a disaster or a success.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:21:57 GMT
Every side will say they know someone who has changed their mind to agree with them so it suits their opinion.......take it all with a pinch of salt, just like whether it will be a disaster or a success. I agree XCH. My guess is that very few have changed their mind Many may have lost interest.....I believe that the Remain camp hope that those who had never previously voted before, who were stimulated to vote for the first time in their lives, understood the question and were so passionate about our independence and sovereignty that they " bothered " to vote this time......backed by the promise that " it's your decision, we will implement what you decide"...... unfortunately they have been shafted as usual , particularly betrayed by the Labour party, as it has now become a question of democracy ( and honour) |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 17:41:55 GMT
Like the Soviets!? Are they murdering millions of people!? No. It's just power and control that they are after Ahhh, so the EU is no different to the labour party, the tory party, trump and every single politician on earth. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 17:45:20 GMT
You must be delighted then because that is precisely what May has done from day 1. She was instructed to leave the EU and that is what she is doing. She was not instructed to never, ever agree anything ever again with the EU. Not even Farage, Dacre or Rees-Mogg would see that as a sensible way forward. Why are leave voters unhappy that May is delivering precisely what they voted for? Is it because the referendum question was wholly insufficient? I met a leave voter the other day. He is full of regret for his vote and said he wants to vote again and this time he would vote to remain. Ive met people who voted to stay in but now want us out, it works both ways. May isn't delivering what people voted for. Chequers would see us bound by EU rules on goods and farming, effectively staying in the customs union, UK still responsible for collecting EU tariffs and implementing EU trade policy for their goods passing through the UK. You don’t know what the leave vote was for. That’s been the problem from the outset. The vote was to leave the EU, not to leave the customs union. If you don’t understand the dofference then you certainly were not clued up enough to really answer the original referendum question as you do not understand fundamental facts. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 17:47:09 GMT
So to have any future agreements with the EU would be a betrayal would it? Do you know that means withdrawing from every single international treaty to which the EU is a signatory. We literally would be unable to conduct business with the EU as there would be no single set of laws or guideline rules we would both be operating under. No WTO rules. Nothing. No reciprocity on flights, immigration, trade. What about the brits living there? What about EU citizens here? You want to be N Korea by the spunds of it, an isolationist state. That is 100% not what the vote was about. Not sure how you got that response, you are twisting things again, the possibibilty of WTO rules was always an option and has been spoken about for a long time, May has already said about EU nationals. Companies are preparing for flights etc. and have got new routes planned for next year, its only you with your head in the sand. You have said that you don’t want to keep the UK in any agreement with the EU. How on earth do we land a plane on EU terrotory without such an agreement!? How do we trade with the EU without any agreement (including WTO rules)? How will it work? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 17:49:49 GMT
You must be delighted then because that is precisely what May has done from day 1. She was instructed to leave the EU and that is what she is doing. She was not instructed to never, ever agree anything ever again with the EU. Not even Farage, Dacre or Rees-Mogg would see that as a sensible way forward. Why are leave voters unhappy that May is delivering precisely what they voted for? Is it because the referendum question was wholly insufficient? I met a leave voter the other day. He is full of regret for his vote and said he wants to vote again and this time he would vote to remain. You don't seem to understand or distinguish between cooperation, control, dictatorship, sovereignty , the EU and Europe, and individual business I think when you voted leave, you thought you were voted for something more than “to leave the EU”. You weren’t. The clue was in the referendum question. The clue was also in the mixed information from both sides as to what a leave outcome would mean. The clue has also been in the 2 and a bit years since and the fact we still don’t have any clear agreement on withdrawal terms and only very, very recently had a proposal on withdrawal terms. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:57:07 GMT
No. It's just power and control that they are after Ahhh, so the EU is no different to the labour party, the tory party, trump and every single politician on earth. Very different. It is an antidemocratic expensive centralist bureacratic organisation that has usurped power and has expansionist ambitions. I think that the others are politicians or Political parties who gain their main power through elections. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:58:28 GMT
You don't seem to understand or distinguish between cooperation, control, dictatorship, sovereignty , the EU and Europe, and individual business I think when you voted leave, you thought you were voted for something more than “to leave the EU”. You weren’t. The clue was in the referendum question. The clue was also in the mixed information from both sides as to what a leave outcome would mean. The clue has also been in the 2 and a bit years since and the fact we still don’t have any clear agreement on withdrawal terms and only very, very recently had a proposal on withdrawal terms. The question was very clear . The problem has been those who can't accept that they may not always get what they want....you know those who don't actually believe in democracy. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 17:59:02 GMT
Davis , in my opinion, always speaks sense.
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Post by 4372 on Oct 1, 2018 18:27:23 GMT
The question was very clear .
Yes. The question was very clear. It was about leaving or remaining in the EU. Nothing else
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 1, 2018 18:27:24 GMT
I am not in favour of the Euro for no other reason than it keeps us a little on the outside,a bit like driving on the left,we are also the only member with passport checks (which sort of negates the argument the EU tell us what we can do)but i do feel that the way the world is we are better being in the EU than outside.leaving causes so many more problems and costs for the average person than remaining will ever do You have some big Remainers who would agree with you Skem. The great Labour Prime Minister and the Tory big beast arr clear that we should be part of monetary union. May 17 2000 During question time, the prime minister insisted he supported a statement by the then Northern Ireland secretary, Peter Mandelson, that business would continue to suffer while Britain remained outside the single currency.' www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/16/euro.euThe big names backing Remain want you to forget how so many of them pushed for Britain to join the euro...... "Some of the most influential politicians in the 1990s and 2000s were fervently pro single currency. From Danny Alexander and Paddy Ashdown, to Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, alongside Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, and Chris Patten. At the same time, supposed key dispensers of financial and business wisdom in the country such as the Financial Times and the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) were also making the case for the euro" www.independent.co.uk/voices/remaining-in-the-eu-would-be-a-disaster-for-britain-just-like-the-euro-a7059326.htmlAnd the Independent continues " Those who were the most fervent European integrationists have now been proven wrong, while those who leaned more to the sceptical side were vindicated as correct. This patchy record on the economy upsets the whole idea that the Remain camp is the side of economic wisdom: had we listened to them ten years ago, Britain’s economy would be in a greater mess than we could imagine. Perhaps we should not be so quick to assume the Remain camp are to be most trusted when it comes to the economic implications of the UK's EU membership." So what you are saying is these people are admitting they made a mistake in their original assessment of entry into the Euro-zone and have since changed their position.i know a far few people who voted leave and would now vote remain, hindsight is often the best course to follow. And as for your opinion of who is trustworthy and who is not you voted with Boris so i question your judgement |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 1, 2018 18:34:44 GMT
You have some big Remainers who would agree with you Skem. The great Labour Prime Minister and the Tory big beast arr clear that we should be part of monetary union. May 17 2000 During question time, the prime minister insisted he supported a statement by the then Northern Ireland secretary, Peter Mandelson, that business would continue to suffer while Britain remained outside the single currency.' www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/16/euro.euThe big names backing Remain want you to forget how so many of them pushed for Britain to join the euro...... "Some of the most influential politicians in the 1990s and 2000s were fervently pro single currency. From Danny Alexander and Paddy Ashdown, to Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, alongside Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, and Chris Patten. At the same time, supposed key dispensers of financial and business wisdom in the country such as the Financial Times and the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) were also making the case for the euro" www.independent.co.uk/voices/remaining-in-the-eu-would-be-a-disaster-for-britain-just-like-the-euro-a7059326.htmlAnd the Independent continues " Those who were the most fervent European integrationists have now been proven wrong, while those who leaned more to the sceptical side were vindicated as correct. This patchy record on the economy upsets the whole idea that the Remain camp is the side of economic wisdom: had we listened to them ten years ago, Britain’s economy would be in a greater mess than we could imagine. Perhaps we should not be so quick to assume the Remain camp are to be most trusted when it comes to the economic implications of the UK's EU membership." So what you are saying is these people are admitting they made a mistake in their original assessment of entry into the Euro-zone and have since changed their position.i know a far few people who voted leave and would now vote remain, hindsight is often the best course to follow. And as for your opinion of who is trustworthy and who is not you voted with Boris so i question your judgement No , they have far from admitted it . Most, if not all, still think that we should join the Euro....which is the direction of travel and the logical position of Remainers like yourself.Just shows you that the wisest can be wrong. Nothing to be afraid of in arguing to join, the majority of EU countries have done do...,.and are now trapped , effectively by rule by Germany. Your position is a bit inconsistent. No idea about the legitimacy and credentials of the following website but it does outline some arguments for joining the Euro...... which we would be required to do if we rejoined the EU....and logically it is the position of those who argued to Remain and to continue on the path of ever closer union. www.economicshelp.org/blog/771/euro/should-uk-join-the-euro/I agree with the conclusion: Conclusion Membership of the Euro has potentially very serious consequences, and significantly increases the risk of deflation, recession and a debt crisis. These potential problems far outweigh the small benefits of joining. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 18:39:28 GMT
Ahhh, so the EU is no different to the labour party, the tory party, trump and every single politician on earth. Very different. It is an antidemocratic expensive centralist bureacratic organisation that has usurped power and has expansionist ambitions. I think that the others are politicians or Political parties who gain their main power through elections. It’s more democratic than here or the US, it’s less bureaucratic than here, it has expanded in size but certainly not in terms of powers over recent years. It has led to unprecedented cooperation, economic and social progression and it has led to unprecedented peace and cooperation. It is big, slow and clunky. It isn’t perfect. It isn’t 100% democratic (nowhere is). It is expensive but not when you factor in net gains. And above all, it regulates big businesses and protects consumers and workers and the environment more than anywhere else on earth. Coupled with human rights legislation, it is the best place to have a family, be gay, be religious, seek justice, avoid torture. It will undoubtedly be one of the biggest mistakes made by any country in the modern world to leave. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 1, 2018 18:40:43 GMT
Davis , in my opinion, always speaks sense. Did he speak sense when he said he would strike a deal with the EU that gave us the exact same benefits as we get now? |
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