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Post by bathstoke on Sept 21, 2018 10:11:52 GMT
Anyone who thinks this is going to work out well for the common people is either deranged, a liar or both.
“Everything is going to be fine”
“La La La, I’m not listening 🙉”
Reminds me of this bloke:-
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Sept 21, 2018 10:16:46 GMT
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 21, 2018 10:17:50 GMT
As I've been saying about it, we won't really have a choice but to accept the terms Donald or Mr Democrat President throws at us really. What are we gonna do? Turn down the second largest economic free trade market as well as the leading bloc? |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Sept 21, 2018 10:21:42 GMT
I lived on the Island of Ireland from 1981-85 and witnessed first hand some of the terrible violence there in Belfast Derry & Crossmaglen. For me the Good Friday Agreement was the single best Political Achievement in my lifetime. A stupendous result. That's why I was incandescent with rage when Osborne & Cameron put that in jeopardy by holding a referendum. I said that BEFORE the referendum. There is NO solution to the hard border in Ireland. If the UK leaves the EU there has to be one. The vast majority of people here in England haven't got a fucking clue what's happening over in Ireland but make no mistake Momo..we're sitting on a massive powder keg..just waiting for an excuse to be lighted. There is a solution to the border in Northern Ireland you just don't engage with it. Much easier to fluff up some IRA bogeyman narrative. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 10:37:24 GMT
Why is it the same people that keeping telling everyone that the vote was about leaving the EU are the same people who are unaware that we are in the process of leaving the EU? Because there is a difference between leaving in reality and leaving in theory/ on paper. As I'm sure you know c People are not stupid and can see through the word games. That's what the debate is about now. Does Brexit mean BREXIT? It's up to you whether you want to engage Yes Brexit does mean Brexit - shockingly one of the few things Theresa May has got correct. And Brexit is short for Britain exiting the European Union, which we are scheduled to do next year. If you disagree with any of the above statement, can you let me know the exact bit - because I'd be intrigued to know which bit it really is that's the sticking point. |
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 21, 2018 10:52:02 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again Is that the same Farage that pushed everyone to vote leave and then later said (after the referendum result) if leaving the EU caused us economic problems that he'd just move to another country so it wouldn't effect him? Easy for him to say it's not about economics when he's filthy rich isn't it? Staggering people still trust this charlatan! Gullible is an understatement...but of course he's just "a man of the people" isn't he  |
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 21, 2018 10:55:10 GMT
Because there is a difference between leaving in reality and leaving in theory/ on paper. As I'm sure you know c People are not stupid and can see through the word games. That's what the debate is about now. Does Brexit mean BREXIT? It's up to you whether you want to engage Yes Brexit does mean Brexit - shockingly one of the few things Theresa May has got correct. And Brexit is short for Britain exiting the European Union, which we are scheduled to do next year. If you disagree with any of the above statement, can you let me know the exact bit - because I'd be intrigued to know which bit it really is that's the sticking point. Here’s one 🙈🙉🙊 |
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Post by flea79 on Sept 21, 2018 10:56:13 GMT
Because there is a difference between leaving in reality and leaving in theory/ on paper. As I'm sure you know c People are not stupid and can see through the word games. That's what the debate is about now. Does Brexit mean BREXIT? It's up to you whether you want to engage Yes Brexit does mean Brexit - shockingly one of the few things Theresa May has got correct. And Brexit is short for Britain exiting the European Union, which we are scheduled to do next year. If you disagree with any of the above statement, can you let me know the exact bit - because I'd be intrigued to know which bit it really is that's the sticking point. i have never seen such arguing over anything, probably never will again i agree completely with your statement, its happening, the sooner people work together on this the better it will go I voted to leave as a protest vote to show my displeasure with the bloated EU, didnt expect that we would leave, i would still vote to leave if there was a second referendum which there should not be if we had voted to stay i would have been happy that my vote was registered and maybe the dissatisfaction of leave voters was considered and led to change down the road that might benefit us, i certainly would not have been screaming about it and attending mass marches and legal challenges to subvert the will of the voters |
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 21, 2018 11:28:38 GMT
I am not a Jeramy fan, but would rather him in charge & it would be a better option for the country than Brexit. I fear we will get both, thanks to the Tory’s 👏🏻
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Post by Davef on Sept 21, 2018 11:46:59 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again The UK could never trade with the EU (or anyone else for that matter) on WTO rules. Never, ever. The fact that the likes of Farage and Rees-Mogg believe we can shows them to be the charlatans they are. Only one country in the world trades solely on WTO rules; Mauritania (and close to 20% of their population is enslaved). Every other country has some sort of trade agreement or mutual recognition agreement. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 11:47:13 GMT
Because there is a difference between leaving in reality and leaving in theory/ on paper. As I'm sure you know c People are not stupid and can see through the word games. That's what the debate is about now. Does Brexit mean BREXIT? It's up to you whether you want to engage Yes Brexit does mean Brexit - shockingly one of the few things Theresa May has got correct. And Brexit is short for Britain exiting the European Union, which we are scheduled to do next year. If you disagree with any of the above statement, can you let me know the exact bit - because I'd be intrigued to know which bit it really is that's the sticking point. I've explained it previously Rip. Word games |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 11:48:23 GMT
I am not a Jeramy fan, but would rather him in charge & it would be a better option for the country than Brexit. I fear we will get both, thanks to the Tory’s 👏🏻 Jeremy |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 11:49:04 GMT
Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again Is that the same Farage that pushed everyone to vote leave and then later said (after the referendum result) if leaving the EU caused us economic problems that he'd just move to another country so it wouldn't effect him? Easy for him to say it's not about economics when he's filthy rich isn't it? Staggering people still trust this charlatan! Gullible is an understatement...but of course he's just "a man of the people" isn't he I've no idea if the first part of what you say is true, but leaving aside the personalities then what he actually says is true |
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 21, 2018 11:49:47 GMT
I am not a Jeramy fan, but would rather him in charge & it would be a better option for the country than Brexit. I fear we will get both, thanks to the Tory’s 👏🏻 Jeremy 👏🏻 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 11:50:31 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 11:51:35 GMT
Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again The UK could never trade with the EU (or anyone else for that matter) on WTO rules. Never, ever. The fact that the likes of Farage and Rees-Mogg believe we can shows them to be the charlatans they are. Only one country in the world trades solely on WTO rules; Mauritania (and close to 20% of their population is enslaved). Every other country has some sort of trade agreement or mutual recognition agreement. I've looked into this before and don't particularly want to again, I may later. I can recall the heading the WTO saying that we would be fine. The main point is that China, Australia, USA trade with the European countries without being part of the EU, SM, CU and accepting free movement etc |
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Post by Davef on Sept 21, 2018 12:50:31 GMT
The UK could never trade with the EU (or anyone else for that matter) on WTO rules. Never, ever. The fact that the likes of Farage and Rees-Mogg believe we can shows them to be the charlatans they are. Only one country in the world trades solely on WTO rules; Mauritania (and close to 20% of their population is enslaved). Every other country has some sort of trade agreement or mutual recognition agreement. I've looked into this before and don't particularly want to again, I may later. I can recall the heading the WTO saying that we would be fine. The main point is that China, Australia, USA trade with the European countries without being part of the EU, SM, CU and accepting free movement etc None of those countries share a land border with the EU though, especially one as complicated as the Irish border. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 13:04:58 GMT
Yes Brexit does mean Brexit - shockingly one of the few things Theresa May has got correct. And Brexit is short for Britain exiting the European Union, which we are scheduled to do next year. If you disagree with any of the above statement, can you let me know the exact bit - because I'd be intrigued to know which bit it really is that's the sticking point. I've explained it previously Rip. Word games You haven't explained it - because there is no explanation. Once we have left the EU we will have left the EU (I feel dumb just having to type that sentence). We may not have left how you wanted us to, we may pay more money to the EU than you want us to, we may have done it slower than you wanted, and we may have an agreement with them that is not to your liking - but we will be outside the EU and we will have left the organisation. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 13:13:14 GMT
Something to lighten the mood for a brief moment:
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 13:22:56 GMT
I've looked into this before and don't particularly want to again, I may later. I can recall the heading the WTO saying that we would be fine. The main point is that China, Australia, USA trade with the European countries without being part of the EU, SM, CU and accepting free movement etc None of those countries share a land border with the EU though, especially one as complicated as the Irish border. The sharing of a land border isn't really the issue since the logic of that is that all the European nations MUST be in the EU and can't leave. Russia shared s land border and trades( oil) with the EU. The issue is " the Irish question" in itself which has caused the UK problems of self determination in history coupled with the fact that the EU is using it to oppose BREXIT AND the fact that our " systems" and politics have been do entwined and dominated by our ever closer union with the EU that to decouple will obviously be difficult.... particularly when one party doesn't want to do it and the other party contains others who are also complicit in not wanting to leave/ anti BREXIT. Because something is difficult does not mean that it cannot or should not be done. Leaving the EU is a political decision, regaining sovereignty, independence and control. A trading deal is a different issue. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 13:24:22 GMT
I've explained it previously Rip. Word games You haven't explained it - because there is no explanation. Once we have left the EU we will have left the EU (I feel dumb just having to type that sentence). We may not have left how you wanted us to, we may pay more money to the EU than you want us to, we may have done it slower than you wanted, and we may have an agreement with them that is not to your liking - but we will be outside the EU and we will have left the organisation. We will have to agree to disagree because there's no point on my repeating my answer. |
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Post by skemstokie on Sept 21, 2018 13:33:19 GMT
If the “Establishment” achieve their wish and get a second referendum, I’m guessing that the ballot paper will be vastly different to the first one. It will undoubtedly have “Remain” as one option but there will be at at least 3 different options to “Leave” 1 Leave with no deal 2 Leave with the EU deal 3 Leave with the Government deal This should split the leave vote enough to ensure that the “ Establishment” get the result that they want. That would suit me  |
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 21, 2018 14:41:27 GMT
Is that the same Farage that pushed everyone to vote leave and then later said (after the referendum result) if leaving the EU caused us economic problems that he'd just move to another country so it wouldn't effect him? Easy for him to say it's not about economics when he's filthy rich isn't it? Staggering people still trust this charlatan! Gullible is an understatement...but of course he's just "a man of the people" isn't he I've no idea if the first part of what you say is true, but leaving aside the personalities then what he actually says is true
Yep, he said "If Brexit is a disaster i will go and live abroad, i will go and live somewhere else" live on air in a radio interview on LBC (i.e. it isn't a misquote, out of context or "Fake news", simply what he actually said).
You're right, what he says here is correct but in exactly the same way that it's correct to say that we didn't vote to have a hard border with Ireland (as that wasn't the question that was asked), we didn't vote to just leave with no trade agreement with the rest of the EU (as that wasn't the question that was asked either), we didn't vote to leave with absolutely no negotiations with the EU or any kind of "Deal" (as that wasn't the question that was asked) etc. etc. etc.
Funny how some are up in arms saying "We don't want any agreement or deal, we just want out full stop as that's what we voted for" or in this case Farage saying "The economic future isn't relevant, we weren't asked to vote on that" i.e. the incredibly vague question that we WERE asked has now been interpreted one way by those that chose to vote to leave, however if anyone else chooses to interpret that incredibly vague question in a different way then all we get is "That isn't the question we were asked in the referendum".
It's kinda the main problem with the referendum for me.....not that too few people voted (their own fault and as i said before, i hate a segment of the "youth" vote who complain about it being "their future" that everyone else has buggered up, despite a large number of that age group not even being arsed to go and vote in the first place if you look at the stats)...not that people were lied to and misled (by both sides)...not that people were being asked to give their opinion on such a complex issue in the first place....what pissed me off was that for such a major issue that will effect us for generations (good or bad, could go either way as none of us are fortune tellers) the question asked was so ridiculously vague. That has led to this kind of bullshit by Farage, as most logical people would appreciate that GDP of the country is an unavoidable consequence and result of which way we voted so OF COURSE people voted on that. If people weren't going to look at how the economy would fare, how social development offered by our nation would fare, how we would perform "on our own" in the world AFTER the vote if Leave won, then what exactly WERE people supposed to be basing their vote on? If people are genuinely saying they voted to just leave and didn't even think about what that actually meant to trade, housing, jobs, social care and our economy overall and just thought "We've been asked if we want to leave so we'll do that and fuck everything else because we haven't technically been asked to look at that" then that kind of irresponsibility and lazy attitude isn't really showing much of this patriotism they keep banging on about is it? Just answer the question on the paper and don't think about anything else or how it could effect Britain's future or if it could lead us to the dogs because technically we weren't asked about it so don't need to be arsed...proper patriotism that is Nige!
Farage saying we weren't asked about GDP on the piece of paper is of course perfectly true, however that's like saying that at a general election you're not voting for that parties policies as all you've technically been asked is "Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem etc" on the piece of paper. It's nothing but clutching at straws and incredibly weak spin for him to try to come out with that.
For what it's worth, i was a Remainer but a rare breed in that although i disagree with leaving, i'm happy to accept the result as that's the point of a democratic vote, in fact if there WAS a 2nd referendum i'd actually vote Leave on principle as that's what the majority vote mandated the govt. to do whether i personally like it or not, so to go back on that would put democracy and any kind of trust in govt. people still have in turmoil. All this talk of "well the majority wasn't big enough" or "not enough people voted in the first place for it to count" is bollocks and embarrassing as i don't recall ever seeing any rules for this referendum stating that it only counted if a certain % of the population voted or that it had to be a majority of at least x% (and i highly suspect that there wouldn't be too many remainers asking for a 2nd referendum on either of these grounds if we'd won). I have no issue with Remainers venting their spleen or campaigning as that's also the point of any democracy (and something people do plenty of for 4 years whenever a general election doesn't go their way i.e. exercising their right to protest about what they disagree with but no one complains when people do that as that's apparently different for some reason) and i have no issue with Leavers going back at them with their own points and arguments, but this disingenuous pedantry and semantic nonsense by a small proportion of Leavers who willfully interpret a vague question to actually have meant EXACTLY what they thought and it can't be interpreted any other way by anyone else, is pathetic and insulting to the intelligence of the general public. If our economic future WASN'T one of the things we were voting for, what were we supposed to base our choice on exactly?
And i don't see how anyone could put personalities aside on this one. The man campaigned relentlessly to get people to vote leave, then when it actually happened he ran for the hills so he could make a quick buck helping the Donald out, then turned around and said if it all goes wrong then he'll jump ship anyway (something the average working class family in Stoke or anywhere else strangely enough doesn't have the luxury of as an option). He's now still creeping out of the woodwork with this kind of pathetic spin to try to detract from very, very valid questions and concerns that people have every right to be concerned about. The man's a shyster as much as Boris was a coward for campaigning and telling the public what to do, then when he "won" and there was a leadership election he shat himself and decided that although he apparently was the right man to tell us all how to vote, he all of a sudden wasn't the right man to do anything about it if we did vote that way.
Still staggers me that people wanted us out of a collective because it isn't democratically elected, yet pay so much attention to a man who also isn't and never has been democratically elected to any position within this great country he so desperately wants to help (yet sat around whilst being an MEP i.e. a paid representative of that collective, taking the pension and allowance while not bothering to turn up to most of the meetings or votes he was supposed to, so he could actually represent the country he so adores and do what he was fucking well paid for in the only role anybody ever actually did vote him into)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 14:56:34 GMT
I've no idea if the first part of what you say is true, but leaving aside the personalities then what he actually says is true Yep, he said "If Brexit is a disaster i will go and live abroad, i will go and live somewhere else" live on air in a radio interview on LBC (i.e. it isn't a misquote, out of context or "Fake news"). You're right, what he says here is correct but in exactly the same way that it's correct to say that we didn't vote to have a hard border with Ireland (as that wasn't the question that was asked), we didn't vote to just leave with no trade agreement with the rest of the EU (as that wasn't the question that was asked either), we didn't vote to leave with absolutely no negotiations with the EU or any kind of "Deal" (as that wasn't the question that was asked) etc. etc. etc. Funny how some are up in arms saying "We don't want any agreement or deal, we just want out full stop as that's what we voted for" or in this case Farage saying "The economic future isn't relevant, we weren't asked to vote on that" i.e. the incredibly vague question that we WERE asked has now been interpreted one way by those that chose to vote to leave, however if anyone else chooses to interpret that incredibly vague question in a different way then all we get is "That isn't the question we were asked in the referendum".
It's kinda the main problem with the referendum for me.....not that too few people voted (their own fault and as i said before, i hate a segment of the "youth" vote who complain about it being "their future" that everyone else has buggered up, despite a large number of that age group not even being arsed to go and vote in the first place if you look at the stats)...not that people were lied to and misled (by both sides)...not that people were being asked to give their opinion on such a complex issue in the first place....what pissed me off was that for such a major issue that will effect us for generations (good or bad, could go either way as none of us are fortune tellers) the question asked was so ridiculously vague. That has led to this kind of bullshit by Farage, as most logical people would appreciate that GDP of the country is an unavoidable consequence and result of which way we voted so OF COURSE people voted on that. If people weren't going to look at how the economy would fare, how social development offered by our nation would fare, how we would perform "on our own" in the world AFTER the vote if Leave won, then what exactly WERE people supposed to be basing their vote on? Farage saying we weren't asked about GDP on the piece of paper is of course perfectly true, however that's like saying that at a general election you're not voting for that parties policies as all you've technically been asked is "Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem etc" on the piece of paper. It's nothing but clutching at straws and incredibly weak spin for him to try to come out with that. For what it's worth, i was a Remainer but a rare breed in that although i disagree with leaving, i'm happy to accept the result as that's the point of a democratic vote, in fact if there WAS a 2nd referendum i'd actually vote Leave on principle as that's what the majority vote mandated the govt. to do, so to go back on that would put democracy and any kind of trust in govt. people still have in turmoil . I have no issue with Remainers venting their spleen or campaigning as that's also the point of any democracy (and something people do plenty of for 4 years whenever a general election doesn't go their way i.e. exercising their right to protest about what they disagree with but no one complains when people do that as that's apparently different for some reason) and i have no issue with Leavers going back at them with their own points and arguments, but this disingenuous pedantry and semantic nonsense by a small proportion of Leavers who willfully interpret a vague question to actually have meant EXACTLY what they thought and it can't be interpreted any other way by anyone else, is pathetic and insulting to the intelligence of the general public. If our economic future WASN'T one of the things we were voting for, what were we supposed to base our choice on exactly? And i don't see how anyone could put personalities aside on this one. The man campaigned relentlessly to get people to vote leave, then when it actually happened he ran for the hills so he could make a quick buck helping the Donald out, then turned around and said if it all goes wrong then he'll jump ship anyway (something the average working class family in Stoke or anywhere else strangely enough doesn't have the luxury of as an option). He's now still creeping out of the woodwork with this kind of pathetic spin to try to detract from very, very valid questions and concerns that people have every right to be concerned about. The man's a shyster as much as Boris was a coward for campaigning and telling the public what to do, then when he "won" and there was a leadership election he shat himself and decided that although he apparently was the right man to tell us all how to vote, he all of a sudden wasn't the right man to do anything about it if we did vote that way. Still staggers me that people wanted us out of a collective because it isn't democratically elected, yet pay so much attention to a man who also isn't and never has been democratically elected to any position within this great country he so desperately wants to help (yet sat around whilst being an MEP i.e. a paid representative of that collective, taking the pension and allowance while not bothering to turn up to most of the meetings or votes he was supposed to, so he could actually represent the country he so adores and do what he was fucking well paid for in the only role anybody ever actually did vote him into)
I can put the personalities aside because it's about the issues.The best proponents of the argument for me have been Farage Benn and Galloway. If they can share a platform the issue becomes very important, held in common and cross party. I agree with Skinner that Corbyn would be clearly on the side of BREXIT, had he not been restricted by power, |
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 21, 2018 15:22:32 GMT
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Sept 21, 2018 15:37:52 GMT
Yep, he said "If Brexit is a disaster i will go and live abroad, i will go and live somewhere else" live on air in a radio interview on LBC (i.e. it isn't a misquote, out of context or "Fake news"). You're right, what he says here is correct but in exactly the same way that it's correct to say that we didn't vote to have a hard border with Ireland (as that wasn't the question that was asked), we didn't vote to just leave with no trade agreement with the rest of the EU (as that wasn't the question that was asked either), we didn't vote to leave with absolutely no negotiations with the EU or any kind of "Deal" (as that wasn't the question that was asked) etc. etc. etc. Funny how some are up in arms saying "We don't want any agreement or deal, we just want out full stop as that's what we voted for" or in this case Farage saying "The economic future isn't relevant, we weren't asked to vote on that" i.e. the incredibly vague question that we WERE asked has now been interpreted one way by those that chose to vote to leave, however if anyone else chooses to interpret that incredibly vague question in a different way then all we get is "That isn't the question we were asked in the referendum".
It's kinda the main problem with the referendum for me.....not that too few people voted (their own fault and as i said before, i hate a segment of the "youth" vote who complain about it being "their future" that everyone else has buggered up, despite a large number of that age group not even being arsed to go and vote in the first place if you look at the stats)...not that people were lied to and misled (by both sides)...not that people were being asked to give their opinion on such a complex issue in the first place....what pissed me off was that for such a major issue that will effect us for generations (good or bad, could go either way as none of us are fortune tellers) the question asked was so ridiculously vague. That has led to this kind of bullshit by Farage, as most logical people would appreciate that GDP of the country is an unavoidable consequence and result of which way we voted so OF COURSE people voted on that. If people weren't going to look at how the economy would fare, how social development offered by our nation would fare, how we would perform "on our own" in the world AFTER the vote if Leave won, then what exactly WERE people supposed to be basing their vote on? Farage saying we weren't asked about GDP on the piece of paper is of course perfectly true, however that's like saying that at a general election you're not voting for that parties policies as all you've technically been asked is "Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem etc" on the piece of paper. It's nothing but clutching at straws and incredibly weak spin for him to try to come out with that. For what it's worth, i was a Remainer but a rare breed in that although i disagree with leaving, i'm happy to accept the result as that's the point of a democratic vote, in fact if there WAS a 2nd referendum i'd actually vote Leave on principle as that's what the majority vote mandated the govt. to do, so to go back on that would put democracy and any kind of trust in govt. people still have in turmoil . I have no issue with Remainers venting their spleen or campaigning as that's also the point of any democracy (and something people do plenty of for 4 years whenever a general election doesn't go their way i.e. exercising their right to protest about what they disagree with but no one complains when people do that as that's apparently different for some reason) and i have no issue with Leavers going back at them with their own points and arguments, but this disingenuous pedantry and semantic nonsense by a small proportion of Leavers who willfully interpret a vague question to actually have meant EXACTLY what they thought and it can't be interpreted any other way by anyone else, is pathetic and insulting to the intelligence of the general public. If our economic future WASN'T one of the things we were voting for, what were we supposed to base our choice on exactly? And i don't see how anyone could put personalities aside on this one. The man campaigned relentlessly to get people to vote leave, then when it actually happened he ran for the hills so he could make a quick buck helping the Donald out, then turned around and said if it all goes wrong then he'll jump ship anyway (something the average working class family in Stoke or anywhere else strangely enough doesn't have the luxury of as an option). He's now still creeping out of the woodwork with this kind of pathetic spin to try to detract from very, very valid questions and concerns that people have every right to be concerned about. The man's a shyster as much as Boris was a coward for campaigning and telling the public what to do, then when he "won" and there was a leadership election he shat himself and decided that although he apparently was the right man to tell us all how to vote, he all of a sudden wasn't the right man to do anything about it if we did vote that way. Still staggers me that people wanted us out of a collective because it isn't democratically elected, yet pay so much attention to a man who also isn't and never has been democratically elected to any position within this great country he so desperately wants to help (yet sat around whilst being an MEP i.e. a paid representative of that collective, taking the pension and allowance while not bothering to turn up to most of the meetings or votes he was supposed to, so he could actually represent the country he so adores and do what he was fucking well paid for in the only role anybody ever actually did vote him into)
I can put the personalities aside because it's about the issues.The best proponents of the argument for me have been Farage Benn and Galloway. If they can share a platform the issue becomes very important, held in common and cross party. I agree with Skinner that Corbyn would be clearly on the side of BREXIT, had he not been restricted by power,
One thing being able to talk a good game (like he can to be fair), but when your actions of shitting yourself and legging it until the dust settles after the referendum and then openly promising to leg it completely if you've got it wrong show your true colours, then to me you lose all respect and show you have no more integrity than any of the other career politicians who are quite simply in it for themselves. What did he do when his side won and they now wanted a figurehead to lead them and to answer their questions? He pissed off to make shitloads of money for himself and get his greasy, smarmy car salesman face in every magazine and newspaper in the US. Cowardly deserter who pops his head up above the parapet when it gets him good airtime, when the chips are down however and it gets serious,he flees and hides.
That kind of "integrity" is exactly the kind of fakery and dishonesty this issue could well do without!
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 21, 2018 15:55:47 GMT
Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again Is that the same Farage that pushed everyone to vote leave and then later said (after the referendum result) if leaving the EU caused us economic problems that he'd just move to another country so it wouldn't effect him? Easy for him to say it's not about economics when he's filthy rich isn't it? Staggering people still trust this charlatan! Gullible is an understatement...but of course he's just "a man of the people" isn't he I don't know the context that he made this comment but it does sound a bit flippant tongue in cheek, the sort of poor joke a man of the people might make  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 15:55:59 GMT
I can put the personalities aside because it's about the issues.The best proponents of the argument for me have been Farage Benn and Galloway. If they can share a platform the issue becomes very important, held in common and cross party. I agree with Skinner that Corbyn would be clearly on the side of BREXIT, had he not been restricted by power, One thing being able to talk a good game (like he can to be fair), but when your actions of shitting yourself and legging it until the dust settles after the referendum and then openly promising to leg it completely if you've got it wrong show your true colours, then to me you lose all respect and show you have no more integrity than any of the other career politicians who are quite simply in it for themselves. What did he do when his side won and they now wanted a figurehead to lead them and to answer their questions? He pissed off to make shitloads of money for himself and get his greasy, smarmy car salesman face in every magazine and newspaper in the US. Cowardly deserter who pops his head up above the parapet when it gets him good airtime, when the chips are down however and it gets serious,he flees and hides. That kind of "integrity" is exactly the kind of fakery and dishonesty this issue could well do without!
I don't think it is true about Farage shitting it and legging it. He is not a member of the government so there is little he could do to implemrnt things post BREXIT. He had done enough in the previous 20 years to achieve Brexit. Mind you he was elected to the EU parliament, ironic indictment on the EU that. But your post does show how pointless it if to talk about the personalities when it's about the issues. Of course such qualities of leadership, courage and vision are important at this precise moment. |
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 21, 2018 16:02:42 GMT
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 21, 2018 16:23:20 GMT
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