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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 20, 2018 10:32:08 GMT
Just read the outline of what a potential UK/US trade deal would look like. The thinktank is linked to Liam Fox, so its relatively serious and regarded as something towards initial suggestions for a trade plan. Hormones in meat, foreign competition for the NHS, chloro chicken (the chlorine isn't the problem, it's the hygiene of the poultry before chlorinating that's the problem) privitisation of schools to foreign investors (  ) and regards state owned business of any sort as "anti competitive market distortions". "As for other services areas, health services are an area where both sides would benefit from openness to foreign competition, although we recognize any changes to existing regulations will be extremely controversial. Perhaps, then, for other areas the initial focus should be on other fields such as education or legal services, where negotiators can test the waters and see what is possible. That said, we would envisage a swift, time-tabled implementation of recognition across all areas within 5 years." That's just a roundaboutway of saying, dismantle bit by bit really.... |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Sept 20, 2018 12:31:31 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 20, 2018 12:41:00 GMT
Just read the outline of what a potential UK/US trade deal would look like. The thinktank is linked to Liam Fox, so its relatively serious and regarded as something towards initial suggestions for a trade plan. Hormones in meat, foreign competition for the NHS, chloro chicken (the chlorine isn't the problem, it's the hygiene of the poultry before chlorinating that's the problem) privitisation of schools to foreign investors ( ) and regards state owned business of any sort as "anti competitive market distortions". "As for other services areas, health services are an area where both sides would benefit from openness to foreign competition, although we recognize any changes to existing regulations will be extremely controversial. Perhaps, then, for other areas the initial focus should be on other fields such as education or legal services, where negotiators can test the waters and see what is possible. That said, we would envisage a swift, time-tabled implementation of recognition across all areas within 5 years." That's just a roundaboutway of saying, dismantle bit by bit really.... The issues that you mention should be questions addressed by the UK parliament at Westminster, not the EU parliament in Brussels. Where I might disagree with fellow Brexiteers ( or possibly not) I would like to see a system whereby water, gas, electricity, public transport, prisons, NHS and even the internet ( if possible) are publicly owned....BUT RUN IN A DIFFERENT WAY from previous attempts. NO reason we can't have higher " standards" than the EU. IF some party put forward a sensible, practical policy that attracted the imagination of the public. We'd probably need electoral reform to achieve that though and the career politicians are not going to accept that easily. As for the NHS . It isn't free now, extremely expensive. Also what it can offer and is able to do in terms of " Health" and the demands upon it are vastly different from what was the case in 1945. It cannot continue as it is ( already rationed in any case by NICE and postcode) .....but unfortunately it is impossible to talk about it honestly because of its holy grail status......and I'm certainly not advocating privatisation but honesty. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 20, 2018 14:09:20 GMT
Just read the outline of what a potential UK/US trade deal would look like. The thinktank is linked to Liam Fox, so its relatively serious and regarded as something towards initial suggestions for a trade plan. Hormones in meat, foreign competition for the NHS, chloro chicken (the chlorine isn't the problem, it's the hygiene of the poultry before chlorinating that's the problem) privitisation of schools to foreign investors ( ) and regards state owned business of any sort as "anti competitive market distortions". "As for other services areas, health services are an area where both sides would benefit from openness to foreign competition, although we recognize any changes to existing regulations will be extremely controversial. Perhaps, then, for other areas the initial focus should be on other fields such as education or legal services, where negotiators can test the waters and see what is possible. That said, we would envisage a swift, time-tabled implementation of recognition across all areas within 5 years." That's just a roundaboutway of saying, dismantle bit by bit really.... The issues that you mention should be questions addressed by the UK parliament at Westminster, not the EU parliament in Brussels. Where I might disagree with fellow Brexiteers ( or possibly not) I would like to see a system whereby water, gas, electricity, public transport, prisons, NHS and even the internet ( if possible) are publicly owned....BUT RUN IN A DIFFERENT WAY from previous attempts. NO reason we can't have higher " standards" than the EU. IF some party put forward a sensible, practical policy that attracted the imagination of the public. We'd probably need electoral reform to achieve that though and the career politicians are not going to accept that easily. As for the NHS . It isn't free now, extremely expensive. Also what it can offer and is able to do in terms of " Health" and the demands upon it are vastly different from what was the case in 1945. It cannot continue as it is ( already rationed in any case by NICE and postcode) .....but unfortunately it is impossible to talk about it honestly because of its holy grail status......and I'm certainly not advocating privatisation but honesty. They will be addressed by the UK government, that's the whole point. In reality, the US trade deal is the "best" one we can hope for. But my concern is this, if the performance we've seen from this government is replicated in any negotiations with the US, I fear it will be a very one sided deal especially if Trump wins again in 2020. He makes no secret of it, he's out for what benefits the USA economically, and that is distribution of the meat products that are chemical treated and indeed chemically enhanced products in a UK market. I can't think of one privately owned utility that isn't in some form of crisis, or continually upping its prices. Of course, the former was often the case in the 70s but fundamentally there was at least the notion of no one profiting from the crisis. The CEOs of these companies will walk away with more and more money as energy prices soar etc and rail franchises lie on the verge of collapse. As for the NHS, it has inherent flaws I agree. But having just returned from a holiday where a mere ambulance trip costs $500 dollars without any other form of healthcare, we are lucky to have a system that doesn't do this Opening the NHS up to this kind of predator company mindset again will result in profit over product. It needs reform, but the idea of having people's lives sold on tv like they are in the states full on sickens me. More so, people profiting from education, like these school concepts drawn up by the Amazon CEO are just abhorrent IMO. If we are going into bed with the US, and with Donald at the helm, I can't see how we can negotiate to exclude the things I've listed above, because we need a deal, and I think they'll bend over backwards for him. |
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Post by starkiller on Sept 20, 2018 14:53:05 GMT
When had this county ever voted to join the EU?
We had one vote on it and we're out. After 40 years of experience. This was not an uneducated vote.
Where were all the 'people's votes' when treaty after treaty was signed to consign our sovereignty to the dustbin?
If it is difficult to leave you can blame all the EU philes for tangling us in the mess in the first place, with no mandate from the UK population.
And you can also blame them for weakening our exit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 20, 2018 15:08:32 GMT
They will be addressed by the UK government, that's the whole point. In reality, the US trade deal is the "best" one we can hope for. But my concern is this, if the performance we've seen from this government is replicated in any negotiations with the US, I fear it will be a very one sided deal especially if Trump wins again in 2020. He makes no secret of it, he's out for what benefits the USA economically, and that is distribution of the meat products that are chemical treated and indeed chemically enhanced products in a UK market. I can't think of one privately owned utility that isn't in some form of crisis, or continually upping its prices. Of course, the former was often the case in the 70s but fundamentally there was at least the notion of no one profiting from the crisis. The CEOs of these companies will walk away with more and more money as energy prices soar etc and rail franchises lie on the verge of collapse. As for the NHS, it has inherent flaws I agree. But having just returned from a holiday where a mere ambulance trip costs $500 dollars without any other form of healthcare, we are lucky to have a system that doesn't do this Opening the NHS up to this kind of predator company mindset again will result in profit over product. It needs reform, but the idea of having people's lives sold on tv like they are in the states full on sickens me. More so, people profiting from education, like these school concepts drawn up by the Amazon CEO are just abhorrent IMO. If we are going into bed with the US, and with Donald at the helm, I can't see how we can negotiate to exclude the things I've listed above, because we need a deal, and I think they'll bend over backwards for him. I share many of your concerns about this government and any potential future government given the current UK Political crop/ parties. It doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility and give control to the EU which will not act in our best interests. The answer is that we need better politicians/ parties with a bit of vision, courage, backbone and ability |
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 20, 2018 17:23:44 GMT
Another injustice if true. We are being played as fools The EU president mr Junker was the Architect of low tax havens for big business when he was the mayor of Luxembourg or whatever his title was . He and his cronies in Brussels won't allow a sovereign government to piss on their chips 🍟 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 20, 2018 18:44:14 GMT
Another injustice if true. We are being played as fools The EU president mr Junker was the Architect of low tax havens for big business when he was the mayor of Luxembourg or whatever his title was . He and his cronies in Brussels won't allow a sovereign government to piss on their chips 🍟 The trouble is Harry many of those in favour of the EU do not spend any time or effort getting to understand it, criticising it, scrutinise it holding it to account. They often equate the EU with ' Europe" . It isn't. It's enough for some people to favour the EU, simply because it is NOT the UK parliament with which they are ( rightly?) disillusioned. The fact that it( and its systems/ bureacracy) is remote from us , geographically and historically ( imposed upon us from the outside, rather than owned and evolved from within) helps it to be supported. Some of us simply presume that it is a good system, because they are not happy with our government. In my opinion of course. |
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 20, 2018 18:55:54 GMT
The EU president mr Junker was the Architect of low tax havens for big business when he was the mayor of Luxembourg or whatever his title was . He and his cronies in Brussels won't allow a sovereign government to piss on their chips 🍟 The trouble is Harry many of those in favour of the EU do not spend any time or effort getting to understand it, criticising it, scrutinise it holding it to account. They often equate the EU with ' Europe" . It isn't. It's enough for some people to favour the EU, simply because it is NOT the UK parliament with which they are ( rightly?) disillusioned. The fact that it( and its systems/ bureacracy) is remote from us , geographically and historically ( imposed upon us from the outside, rather than owned and evolved from within) helps it to be supported. Some of us simply presume that it is a good system, because they are not happy with our government. In my opinion of course. Exactly, I find it quite revealing that the prime minister of Malta of all places said today that the majority of the EU heads of state are in favour of a second referendum. What gives them the idea they have a decision on our internal politics . Asso in other news the EU stated that the Irish border must make provisions for a frictionless border to ensure that Trade between the Irish republic and the north continues as normal . Ok how about the borders in Calais, Rotterdam and Gibraltar as well or is that not on their can do list today . The further along this process we go the more I realise what a good choice we made . Macron also calling all of the brexit politicians liars . How fucking arrogant is the ponsy French twat |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 20, 2018 19:05:08 GMT
They will be addressed by the UK government, that's the whole point. In reality, the US trade deal is the "best" one we can hope for. But my concern is this, if the performance we've seen from this government is replicated in any negotiations with the US, I fear it will be a very one sided deal especially if Trump wins again in 2020. He makes no secret of it, he's out for what benefits the USA economically, and that is distribution of the meat products that are chemical treated and indeed chemically enhanced products in a UK market. I can't think of one privately owned utility that isn't in some form of crisis, or continually upping its prices. Of course, the former was often the case in the 70s but fundamentally there was at least the notion of no one profiting from the crisis. The CEOs of these companies will walk away with more and more money as energy prices soar etc and rail franchises lie on the verge of collapse. As for the NHS, it has inherent flaws I agree. But having just returned from a holiday where a mere ambulance trip costs $500 dollars without any other form of healthcare, we are lucky to have a system that doesn't do this Opening the NHS up to this kind of predator company mindset again will result in profit over product. It needs reform, but the idea of having people's lives sold on tv like they are in the states full on sickens me. More so, people profiting from education, like these school concepts drawn up by the Amazon CEO are just abhorrent IMO. If we are going into bed with the US, and with Donald at the helm, I can't see how we can negotiate to exclude the things I've listed above, because we need a deal, and I think they'll bend over backwards for him. I share many of your concerns about this government and any potential future government given the current UK Political crop/ parties. It doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility and give control to the EU which will not act in our best interests. The answer is that we need better politicians/ parties with a bit of vision, courage, backbone and ability The answer, in the case of the US and the NHS, is surely to tell the US to fuck off. We need to keep control over our healthcare and can't let our sovereignty be eroded on such an important issue. If that means telling our special friend to do one, then so be it. Also, they need us more than we need them so it should work out OK for us. |
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 20, 2018 19:14:00 GMT
I share many of your concerns about this government and any potential future government given the current UK Political crop/ parties. It doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility and give control to the EU which will not act in our best interests. The answer is that we need better politicians/ parties with a bit of vision, courage, backbone and ability The answer, in the case of the US and the NHS, is surely to tell the US to fuck off. We need to keep control over our healthcare and can't let our sovereignty be eroded on such an important issue. If that means telling our special friend to do one, then so be it. Also, they need us more than we need them so it should work out OK for us. Trump would have us rebuilding Hadrians wall to keep out the troublesome foreigners to the north. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 20, 2018 19:14:32 GMT
I share many of your concerns about this government and any potential future government given the current UK Political crop/ parties. It doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility and give control to the EU which will not act in our best interests. The answer is that we need better politicians/ parties with a bit of vision, courage, backbone and ability The answer, in the case of the US and the NHS, is surely to tell the US to fuck off. We need to keep control over our healthcare and can't let our sovereignty be eroded on such an important issue. If that means telling our special friend to do one, then so be it. Also, they need us more than we need them so it should work out OK for us. I think that you are right about the NHS/ USA. I also think we need an honest discussion about the NHS;costs, efficiency, management, expectations,taxes, what we can deliver, what we can't ( if things carry on as they are), taking it for granted, not abusing it, long term planning instead of short term party political football playing that we've heard before. |
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 20, 2018 19:19:17 GMT
I share many of your concerns about this government and any potential future government given the current UK Political crop/ parties. It doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility and give control to the EU which will not act in our best interests. The answer is that we need better politicians/ parties with a bit of vision, courage, backbone and ability The answer, in the case of the US and the NHS, is surely to tell the US to fuck off. We need to keep control over our healthcare and can't let our sovereignty be eroded on such an important issue. If that means telling our special friend to do one, then so be it. Also, they need us more than we need them so it should work out OK for us. And I'm sure all of these US service providers will be based in Dublin for tax purposes |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 6:33:53 GMT
Seems like it's all staged and set up for a neverendum stitch up
All the powers are putting every effort into Britain having a second referendum...
"Britain 2018 is a different place than Britain 2016".... Chuka Umunna
🙄
David Cameron said before the vote....the referendum was a “once in a lifetime” vote on Britain’s EU membership and that the British public would not tolerate the idea of a neverendum “
Obviously he was pretty confident before hand that the majority of the British voters were happy to hand over our sovereignty to Claud and merkel
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 21, 2018 6:47:18 GMT
Seems like it's all staged and set up for a neverendum stitch up All the powers are putting every effort into Britain having a second referendum... "Britain 2018 is a different place than Britain 2016".... Chuka Umunna 🙄 Well it is more people are getting stabbed to death or shot on the streets of London due to the incompetence of a labour mayor Oh and stoke has a Tory mp |
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Post by pearo on Sept 21, 2018 6:57:22 GMT
If the “Establishment” achieve their wish and get a second referendum, I’m guessing that the ballot paper will be vastly different to the first one. It will undoubtedly have “Remain” as one option but there will be at at least 3 different options to “Leave”
1 Leave with no deal
2 Leave with the EU deal
3 Leave with the Government deal
This should split the leave vote enough to ensure that the “ Establishment” get the result that they want.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 21, 2018 7:05:52 GMT
When had this county ever voted to join the EU? We had one vote on it and we're out. After 40 years of experience. This was not an uneducated vote. Where were all the 'people's votes' when treaty after treaty was signed to consign our sovereignty to the dustbin? If it is difficult to leave you can blame all the EU philes for tangling us in the mess in the first place, with no mandate from the UK population. And you can also blame them for weakening our exit. Very good points. I see that the Presidents of Malta and the Czech Republic are calling for a second referendum, now. I have no doubt it will happen. May ignored David Davis's ideas for Brexit and decided to go with what the civil servants suggested instead. She, and they, have no real intention of leaving. It's all a front. We could leave if we wanted to. Nobody has the balls or the will to do it. And that includes Man Of Principle Corbyn, who has opposed the EU for his whole political life. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 21, 2018 7:18:54 GMT
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Sept 21, 2018 7:56:47 GMT
When I studied Economics at Liverpool University in 1986-89 Patrick Minford was Lecturing there (He also sat on a thinktank with Keith Joseph & was instrumental in the construction of Monetarist Economic Policies that Mrs Thatcher pursued 1979-83..later labelled 'Supply Side Economics') He was to the Right of Milton Friedman then..a man he drew great inspiration from. No doubt he's one of the main architects of this Brave New World. |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Sept 21, 2018 8:28:59 GMT
I lived on the Island of Ireland from 1981-85 and witnessed first hand some of the terrible violence there in Belfast Derry & Crossmaglen. For me the Good Friday Agreement was the single best Political Achievement in my lifetime. A stupendous result. That's why I was incandescent with rage when Osborne & Cameron put that in jeopardy by holding a referendum. I said that BEFORE the referendum. There is NO solution to the hard border in Ireland. If the UK leaves the EU there has to be one. The vast majority of people here in England haven't got a fucking clue what's happening over in Ireland but make no mistake Momo..we're sitting on a massive powder keg..just waiting for an excuse to be lighted. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 8:40:08 GMT
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 21, 2018 8:59:13 GMT
This is no project fear, old son, this is the duplicitous way the right wing are conning you. Brexit could be a wonderful opportunity for the people of this country but in reality it will be used to further subjugate the means of production so that those who prosper most now will prosper further without the shackles of red tape or to give it its real name, workers’ rights.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 21, 2018 9:01:09 GMT
I lived on the Island of Ireland from 1981-85 and witnessed first hand some of the terrible violence there in Belfast Derry & Crossmaglen. For me the Good Friday Agreement was the single best Political Achievement in my lifetime. A stupendous result. That's why I was incandescent with rage when Osborne & Cameron put that in jeopardy by holding a referendum. I said that BEFORE the referendum. There is NO solution to the hard border in Ireland. If the UK leaves the EU there has to be one. The vast majority of people here in England haven't got a fucking clue what's happening over in Ireland but make no mistake Momo..we're sitting on a massive powder keg..just waiting for an excuse to be lighted. Agreed. It's very concerning, which begs the question why was this debate not front and centre at the time of the referendum campaign? Why was it pushed own amongst the 'technical' debates? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 9:11:13 GMT
This is no project fear, old son, this is the duplicitous way the right wing are conning you. Brexit could be a wonderful opportunity for the people of this country but in reality it will be used to further subjugate the means of production so that those who prosper most now will prosper further without the shackles of red tape or to give it its real name, workers’ rights. I'm under no illusions of the devious fuckers of right-wing politics young Rodney.....but, let's be open and honest here. Politics as a whole is corrupt as fuck....including the left And that's not just the UK The eu is as bad and in my opinion far worse We in Britain have the power to change things for the better in this country We have absolutely no power to change what the eu under Angela and Claude have in store for us We need to govern ourselves first, then move onto Westminster because this bullshit of left v right is total bollocks but, it plays nicely into their hands |
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Post by flea79 on Sept 21, 2018 9:42:39 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 9:52:10 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved Problem will be solved by 31st March 2019. Please remain patient while our busy team of politicians headless chickens deal with the negotiations. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 9:53:34 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 9:54:15 GMT
Good to see they're taking the first steps away from continually telling us how bad the EU is, and actually talking about what the future looks like outside the EU. That's the good bit - the bad part is that this first little taster looks fucking awful. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Sept 21, 2018 9:56:13 GMT
leave, move on, problem solved Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again Why is it the same people that keeping telling everyone that the vote was about leaving the EU are the same people who are unaware that we are in the process of leaving the EU? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 21, 2018 10:05:38 GMT
Correct. Leaving the EU ( the Referendum question) And A Deal/ trading arrangement are two different things. Those who want us to Remain want to tie the two together so that to leave can be equated with disaster/ difficulty/chaos. It is possible to trade with the European countries without being a member of the SM / CU......China, USA, , NEW Zealand. Being IN or OUT of the UNION is a political issue..... Ever Closer Union.....the 4 freedoms etc....not trade. Actually the wording is often deliberately wrong.....no deal does not equate to not trading....but trading under WTO rules....that would be the deal. Farage is correct again Why is it the same people that keeping telling everyone that the vote was about leaving the EU are the same people who are unaware that we are in the process of leaving the EU? Because there is a difference between leaving in reality and leaving in theory/ on paper. As I'm sure you know c People are not stupid and can see through the word games. That's what the debate is about now. Does Brexit mean BREXIT? It's up to you whether you want to engage |
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) and regards state owned business of any sort as "anti competitive market distortions".
