|
Post by andystokey on May 17, 2023 20:28:53 GMT
Minford is correct. It may have escaped some people's notice but employment in manufacturing in the UK has been in decline for many decades, since before joining the European Economic Community in fact. The difference today is when a business closure is announce it is hundreds or a few thousands of jobs lost which can be readily absorbed into the rest of commerce, whereas during EEC/EU membership is was 10s of 1,000s of jobs lost as manufacturing moved to Europe or the far east. We are now enjoying low unemployment and loads of job vacancies. Today British workers don't want to work in the fields harvesting, on ships fishing, or in slaughterhouses butchering and I am quite happy to see immigrants coming to this country to do those jobs plus working in lower paid jobs in health and welfare services. The boom in East European economies, funded by the EU, and thankfully no longer by the UK, meant workers were coming from those countries far less in future even if the UK had voted to remain in the EU. Germany has a worse worker shortage than the UK and France have hospital wards shut with empty beds because of nurse shortages. In the future far fewer British workers will want to work on production lines, particularly cut throat car production, and manufacturing will be increasingly automated or move to countries with cheap labour and energy costs. 80% of UK workers work in services which will continue to grow. People will keep their cars, washing machines, and even computers for a lot longer before replacing them, so there is little high profitability in making cars as Germany will find. That is apart from niche markets like Bentley cars etc. The 5,000 jobs lost in Swindon due to Honda moving manufacturing jobs to Japan are being replaced by twice as many jobs in logistics. I do celebrate Nissan making the highest selling car in the UK because British workers have made it, instead of the highest selling car in the UK being made in Germany, etc. Just as I celebrate leaving the CAP, I welcome the UK being a world leader in modern commercial activity such as IT, financial services, green technology, high tech engineering, design, etc. We will continue to manufacture of course and are still in the top 10 world manufacturing nations, but we will be at the frontier of technology not making minis or vacuum cleaners. That not blind faith but astute business. Incidentally having work closely with the HSE, HSI, EA, etc I found them highly professional and I do have blind faith in DEFRA to develop a better agriculture system than the evil CAP. Such total claptrap, like a message from a pamphlet. I work in a sector that is looking to employ 130,000 experienced engineers in the next 6-12 months to supply literally 100s of billions into the UK economy. The orders are there, the industrial base is there, the supply chain can support it but the best engineers aren't. They aren't there because the UK has an abject record in encouraging scientists and engineers ever since I graduated over 40 years ago. They've either migrated for better pay or jacked it in to push paper in a different sector, So these massive companies with bases in the UK are now desperately trying to get over 55's out of retirement or to move abroad. The engineering and technology sector is a mess because of a lack of vision and support from successive governments. There is literally no long term vision backed with tangible support. You don't build an industrial base to rival S Korea on a shoestring in a couple of years. British Volt was the right idea but the government stood by. One can knock Elon Musk as much as you like but engineers know he understood the issues. He did more with Tesla to create the EV market than all the governments on the planet put together. The UK has let our equivalents down since ever Frank Whittle. Your view, much like our technical industrial base, is all based on a half truth. Some nostalgic back slapping of our mini triumphs. Even your comment about services is flawed. Financial services ebb away day by day to other countries. We need better from government if we are not to watch a repeat of mistakes we made in the 50s. What we need most of all is facts and home truths from sector specialists. We don't want this rubbish regurgitated from some ill-informed Telegraph editorial or a column piece in the Spectator written by an old Etonion who read classics.
|
|
|
Post by str8outtahampton on May 17, 2023 20:48:53 GMT
Minford is correct. It may have escaped some people's notice but employment in manufacturing in the UK has been in decline for many decades, since before joining the European Economic Community in fact. The difference today is when a business closure is announce it is hundreds or a few thousands of jobs lost which can be readily absorbed into the rest of commerce, whereas during EEC/EU membership is was 10s of 1,000s of jobs lost as manufacturing moved to Europe or the far east. We are now enjoying low unemployment and loads of job vacancies. Today British workers don't want to work in the fields harvesting, on ships fishing, or in slaughterhouses butchering and I am quite happy to see immigrants coming to this country to do those jobs plus working in lower paid jobs in health and welfare services. The boom in East European economies, funded by the EU, and thankfully no longer by the UK, meant workers were coming from those countries far less in future even if the UK had voted to remain in the EU. Germany has a worse worker shortage than the UK and France have hospital wards shut with empty beds because of nurse shortages. In the future far fewer British workers will want to work on production lines, particularly cut throat car production, and manufacturing will be increasingly automated or move to countries with cheap labour and energy costs. 80% of UK workers work in services which will continue to grow. People will keep their cars, washing machines, and even computers for a lot longer before replacing them, so there is little high profitability in making cars as Germany will find. That is apart from niche markets like Bentley cars etc. The 5,000 jobs lost in Swindon due to Honda moving manufacturing jobs to Japan are being replaced by twice as many jobs in logistics. I do celebrate Nissan making the highest selling car in the UK because British workers have made it, instead of the highest selling car in the UK being made in Germany, etc. Just as I celebrate leaving the CAP, I welcome the UK being a world leader in modern commercial activity such as IT, financial services, green technology, high tech engineering, design, etc. We will continue to manufacture of course and are still in the top 10 world manufacturing nations, but we will be at the frontier of technology not making minis or vacuum cleaners. That not blind faith but astute business. Incidentally having work closely with the HSE, HSI, EA, etc I found them highly professional and I do have blind faith in DEFRA to develop a better agriculture system than the evil CAP. Such total claptrap, like a message from a pamphlet. I work in a sector that is looking to employ 130,000 experienced engineers in the next 6-12 months to supply literally 100s of billions into the UK economy. The orders are there, the industrial base is there, the supply chain can support it but the best engineers aren't. They aren't there because the UK has an abject record in encouraging scientists and engineers ever since I graduated over 40 years ago. They've either migrated for better pay or jacked it in to push paper in a different sector, So these massive companies with bases in the UK are now desperately trying to get over 55's out of retirement or to move abroad. The engineering and technology sector is a mess because of a lack of vision and support from successive governments. There is literally no long term vision backed with tangible support. You don't build an industrial base to rival S Korea on a shoestring in a couple of years. British Volt was the right idea but the government stood by. One can knock Elon Musk as much as you like but engineers know he understood the issues. He did more with Tesla to create the EV market than all the governments on the planet put together. The UK has let our equivalents down since ever Frank Whittle. Your view, much like our technical industrial base, is all based on a half truth. Some nostalgic back slapping of our mini triumphs. Even your comment about services is flawed. Financial services ebb away day by day to other countries. We need better from government if we are not to watch a repeat of mistakes we made in the 50s. What we need most of all is facts and home truths from sector specialists. We don't want this rubbish regurgitated from some ill-informed Telegraph editorial or a column piece in the Spectator written by an old Etonion who read classics. Oh, I don't know. Nostalgic, half-glimpsed illusions memories of warm beer, village greens and district nurses on sit-up-and-beg bycicles is the answer. Not to mention politicians who advocate the re-introduction in schools of imperial measurements.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 17, 2023 21:12:42 GMT
Such total claptrap, like a message from a pamphlet. I work in a sector that is looking to employ 130,000 experienced engineers in the next 6-12 months to supply literally 100s of billions into the UK economy. The orders are there, the industrial base is there, the supply chain can support it but the best engineers aren't. They aren't there because the UK has an abject record in encouraging scientists and engineers ever since I graduated over 40 years ago. They've either migrated for better pay or jacked it in to push paper in a different sector, So these massive companies with bases in the UK are now desperately trying to get over 55's out of retirement or to move abroad. The engineering and technology sector is a mess because of a lack of vision and support from successive governments. There is literally no long term vision backed with tangible support. You don't build an industrial base to rival S Korea on a shoestring in a couple of years. British Volt was the right idea but the government stood by. One can knock Elon Musk as much as you like but engineers know he understood the issues. He did more with Tesla to create the EV market than all the governments on the planet put together. The UK has let our equivalents down since ever Frank Whittle. Your view, much like our technical industrial base, is all based on a half truth. Some nostalgic back slapping of our mini triumphs. Even your comment about services is flawed. Financial services ebb away day by day to other countries. We need better from government if we are not to watch a repeat of mistakes we made in the 50s. What we need most of all is facts and home truths from sector specialists. We don't want this rubbish regurgitated from some ill-informed Telegraph editorial or a column piece in the Spectator written by an old Etonion who read classics. Oh, I don't know. Nostalgic, half-glimpsed illusions memories of warm beer, village greens and district nurses on sit-up-and-beg bycicles is the answer. Not to mention politicians who advocate the re-introduction in schools of imperial measurements. Don't forget to mention the war. If we all just believed a bit more. Like in the war.
|
|
|
Post by generationex on May 17, 2023 22:03:43 GMT
Even Farage knows it’s failed. As many people predicted at the time : when it inevitably fails they’ll tell you it’s because there’s not enough Brexit.
Outside of the third world dictatorships or Singapore there could never be enough Brexit. That’s what Farage wanted; deregulation of financial sectors; its why he never mentioned ‘levelling up’ - it means massive state intervention for places like Stoke. That is the opposite of his dreams but sold on the back of controlling borders.
We’ve now got the biggest immigration figures ever. But they can’t work in useful jobs because they’re now ‘illegal’.
If you’ve got a cannabis grow in your street blame Farage.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 18, 2023 5:34:53 GMT
Lest we forget...
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 18, 2023 7:25:29 GMT
Yeah, cos everything's going so well with the Brexit you campaigned so vigorously for, isn't it, Daily Mail, the country is doing so well as a result... It's like the emperor's new clothes this, somebody eventually has to say it: "It's a shitshow and for the good of Britain as a whole, we need to look again at the deal as a starting point". Hopefully, if we do get a new government, there will be a much better, more adult relationship with Europe and we can start to undo more of the damage that this Tory Brexit has so far inflicted.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on May 18, 2023 11:33:44 GMT
And we ultimately ended up with a deal that was miles harder than a Norway deal and he now has the temerity to moan that it's the Brexit deal that is the problem and not Brexit itself! He is a snake oil salesman of the highest order, with absolutely no conscience.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on May 18, 2023 11:38:09 GMT
Yeah, cos everything's going so well with the Brexit you campaigned so vigorously for, isn't it, Daily Mail, the country is doing so well as a result... It's like the emperor's new clothes this, somebody eventually has to say it: "It's a shitshow and for the good of Britain as a whole, we need to look again at the deal as a starting point". Hopefully, if we do get a new government, there will be a much better, more adult relationship with Europe and we can start to undo more of the damage that this Tory Brexit has so far inflicted. They even say in their own editorial, that the reason he was suggesting it, would be in order to save thousands of British jobs and that's 'the mask slipping' is it? Good grief! 🤦♂️
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 18, 2023 12:04:07 GMT
Ooops........
|
|
|
Post by tuum on May 18, 2023 12:15:31 GMT
Labour's election manifesto should state that they will seek to rejoin the EU. They are already a shoo-in for victory. Telling the electorate that they will take us back into the EU should seal the deal...or will it?
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on May 18, 2023 12:51:45 GMT
Yeah, cos everything's going so well with the Brexit you campaigned so vigorously for, isn't it, Daily Mail, the country is doing so well as a result... It's like the emperor's new clothes this, somebody eventually has to say it: "It's a shitshow and for the good of Britain as a whole, we need to look again at the deal as a starting point". Hopefully, if we do get a new government, there will be a much better, more adult relationship with Europe and we can start to undo more of the damage that this Tory Brexit has so far inflicted. There really should be some financial sanction on reporting "Fake News" like Fox suffered recently And yes I know the case was brought by a Private Company What is the difference between what Starmer is apparently wishing to do and what Rishi did on the Windsor Framework? It is contained in the TCA that if both parties are willing, sections can be negotiated at at any time It is contained in the TCA that it is reviewed every five years It is contained in the TCA that either party without cause can scrap the agreement entirely by giving 12 months notice It is merely the Daily Fail subliminally planting confirmation bias that Starmer can't be trusted in the minds of the readers of its Comic who don't get past the Headline unless it relates to The Royals
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 18, 2023 13:36:08 GMT
Labour's election manifesto should state that they will seek to rejoin the EU. They are already a shoo-in for victory. Telling the electorate that they will take us back into the EU should seal the deal...or will it? No. Way too soon for that. You can't tell the electorate they were wrong, they'll not forgive you for that. Many of them will vote Tory again just to tell you to piss off for saying it! You have to be much cannier. Sunak knows it, which is why he's quietly shelving everything that Brexit was about, well aware of the damage it's done and trying to minimise it to get what tiny bits of growth that he can. Starmer knows it, which is why he'll carry on doing precisely the same if he gets elected, but hopefully with a much better relationship with the EU. The public knows it, which is why they'll accept exactly that so long as no-one comes along and rubs their noses in it by telling them how stupid it all was. That's politics! I suspect most people will put up with that if it goes a long way to undoing all the damage that's been done so far and prevents any additional shit coming our way. But full membership will have to wait years, possibly decades. The majority of older Brexiteers need to shuffle off first. The younger ones are probably a bit more fluid about it and will accept, in time, that it didn't go well. Ironically, given how much so many Brexiteers were saying that this was the end of the EU, the one thing it has done is to unite the EU like never before! Even Italy's supposedly euro-sceptic, supposedly far-right Meloni-led government was enthusiastically supporting Ukraine's membership of the EU just the other day and no-one is seriously talking about leaving anymore besides a few rump elements of dissension. Nobody with any chance of doing anything about it anyway. Not even Le Pen wants to take France out. I guess we have, rather disastrously, shown them precisely what happens when careerist, narcissist politicians use the country as a political football for their own temporary and vainglorious ends.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on May 18, 2023 13:42:19 GMT
Labour's election manifesto should state that they will seek to rejoin the EU. They are already a shoo-in for victory. Telling the electorate that they will take us back into the EU should seal the deal...or will it? I think it will eventually but atm there isn't an appetite for another referendum on anything just yet
|
|
|
Post by tuum on May 18, 2023 13:43:10 GMT
Labour's election manifesto should state that they will seek to rejoin the EU. They are already a shoo-in for victory. Telling the electorate that they will take us back into the EU should seal the deal...or will it? No. Way too soon for that. You can't tell the electorate they were wrong, they'll not forgive you for that. Many of them will vote Tory again just to tell you to piss off for saying it! You have to be much cannier. Sunak knows it, which is why he's quietly shelving everything that Brexit was about, well aware of the damage it's done and trying to minimise it to get what tiny bits of growth that he can. Starmer knows it, which is why he'll carry on doing precisely the same if he gets elected, but hopefully with a much better relationship with the EU. The public knows it, which is why they'll accept exactly that so long as no-one comes along and rubs their noses in it by telling them how stupid it all was. That's politics! I suspect most people will put up with that if it goes a long way to undoing all the damage that's been done so far and prevents any additional shit coming our way. But full membership will have to wait years, possibly decades. The majority of older Brexiteers need to shuffle off first. The younger ones are probably a bit more fluid about it and will accept, in time, that it didn't go well. Ironically, given how much so many Brexiteers were saying that this was the end of the EU, the one thing it has done is to unite the EU like never before! Even Italy's supposedly euro-sceptic, supposedly far-right Meloni led government was enthusiastically supporting Ukraine's membership of the EU just the other day and no-one is seriously talking about leaving anymore besides a few rump elements of dissension. Nobody with any chance of doing anything about it anyway. Not even Le Pen wants to take France out. I guess we have, rather disastrously, shown them precisely what happens when careerist, narcissist politicians use the country as a political football for their own temporary and vainglorious ends. Good post. I agree. I think if Starmer stands on re-joining the EU he may lose a lot of the red wall voters who are looking to come back into the fold. I agree that there is still some stubborness among the voters post brexit. He just needs to win the next GE and then look at how to slowly re-align with the EU if indeed that is what he thinks we should do. It will be an interesting strategic battle.
|
|
|
Post by mtrstudent on May 18, 2023 13:50:41 GMT
I suspect most people will put up with that if it goes a long way to undoing all the damage that's been done so far and prevents any additional shit coming our way. But full membership will have to wait years, possibly decades. The majority of older Brexiteers need to shuffle off first. The younger ones are probably a bit more fluid about it and will accept, in time, that it didn't go well. Brexit was generally a thing the older folk did to the younger folk. Yeah I know not everyone in a generation voted the same way but it was a huge divide. Either now or soon, the majority of still-living referendum voters should be remainers. Funny to think an old minority gets to put a stick in the spokes for so long for everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by tuum on May 18, 2023 16:58:49 GMT
I suspect most people will put up with that if it goes a long way to undoing all the damage that's been done so far and prevents any additional shit coming our way. But full membership will have to wait years, possibly decades. The majority of older Brexiteers need to shuffle off first. The younger ones are probably a bit more fluid about it and will accept, in time, that it didn't go well. Brexit was generally a thing the older folk did to the younger folk. Yeah I know not everyone in a generation voted the same way but it was a huge divide. Either now or soon, the majority of still-living referendum voters should be remainers. Funny to think an old minority gets to put a stick in the spokes for so long for everyone else. As you get older you get more conservative so some of the young remainers will turn into brexiteers in time. The interesting thing is that younger people today are turning into conservatives at a much slower rate than at any other time in history.
|
|
|
Post by mtrstudent on May 18, 2023 17:32:09 GMT
Brexit was generally a thing the older folk did to the younger folk. Yeah I know not everyone in a generation voted the same way but it was a huge divide. Either now or soon, the majority of still-living referendum voters should be remainers. Funny to think an old minority gets to put a stick in the spokes for so long for everyone else. As you get older you get more conservative so some of the young remainers will turn into brexiteers in time. The interesting thing is that younger people today are turning into conservatives at a much slower rate than at any other time in history. I saw that about millennials. Tbh there have been some pretty big changes in opinion in my lifetime. The kids changing stuff is an old story but this time loads of us are financially worse off than our parents. Conservative policies are probably harder to sell to a generation that feels like conservatives have been stripmining them to prop up house prices and pensions for the lot who just happened to get born earlier.
|
|
|
Post by Davef on May 18, 2023 20:19:11 GMT
As you get older you get more conservative so some of the young remainers will turn into brexiteers in time. The interesting thing is that younger people today are turning into conservatives at a much slower rate than at any other time in history. I saw that about millennials. Tbh there have been some pretty big changes in opinion in my lifetime. The kids changing stuff is an old story but this time loads of us are financially worse off than our parents. Conservative policies are probably harder to sell to a generation that feels like conservatives have been stripmining them to prop up house prices and pensions for the lot who just happened to get born earlier. Would that be "the lot" who lived through Thatcher's Britain?
|
|
|
Post by lordb on May 18, 2023 20:45:02 GMT
I saw that about millennials. Tbh there have been some pretty big changes in opinion in my lifetime. The kids changing stuff is an old story but this time loads of us are financially worse off than our parents. Conservative policies are probably harder to sell to a generation that feels like conservatives have been stripmining them to prop up house prices and pensions for the lot who just happened to get born earlier. Would that be "the lot" who lived through Thatcher's Britain? No not us, the next generation
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 18, 2023 21:14:51 GMT
They walk amongst us....
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on May 18, 2023 21:26:17 GMT
Both funny and utterly tragic at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by smallthorner on May 18, 2023 21:27:32 GMT
Labour's election manifesto should state that they will seek to rejoin the EU. They are already a shoo-in for victory. Telling the electorate that they will take us back into the EU should seal the deal...or will it? I think it will eventually but atm there isn't an appetite for another referendum on anything just yet Be another decade before there is even a sniff of another referendum or a mandate from a political party. Most of the damage will have been done by then and we will have sunk into a hole of isolation and apathy. We will have some tremendous trade deals with South Pacific Islands though.
|
|
|
Post by mtrstudent on May 18, 2023 21:53:21 GMT
I saw that about millennials. Tbh there have been some pretty big changes in opinion in my lifetime. The kids changing stuff is an old story but this time loads of us are financially worse off than our parents. Conservative policies are probably harder to sell to a generation that feels like conservatives have been stripmining them to prop up house prices and pensions for the lot who just happened to get born earlier. Would that be "the lot" who lived through Thatcher's Britain? Yeah, some of them. I'm not saying things were easier or harder btw, just that most people I know round my age and younger feel screwed over and notice a lot of things that seem targeted against us. There's a shitload of resentment so it's a hard sell for conservative policies since we've lived through them and not really felt like winning from them.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on May 22, 2023 15:49:14 GMT
As each new poll comes out, it seems that the direction of travel for public opinion is travelling in only one (and pretty rapid) direction ...
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 17:56:23 GMT
As each new poll comes out, it seems that the direction of travel for public opinion is travelling in only one (and pretty rapid) direction ... There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on May 22, 2023 18:01:00 GMT
As each new poll comes out, it seems that the direction of travel for public opinion is travelling in only one (and pretty rapid) direction ... There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin. Only one way to find out
|
|
|
Post by thehartshillbadger on May 22, 2023 18:01:19 GMT
As each new poll comes out, it seems that the direction of travel for public opinion is travelling in only one (and pretty rapid) direction ... There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin. It’s another pointless poll. Take no notice
|
|
|
Post by Paul Spencer on May 22, 2023 18:02:11 GMT
As each new poll comes out, it seems that the direction of travel for public opinion is travelling in only one (and pretty rapid) direction ... There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin. Yeah I noticed that too, odd but pretty inconsequential rather than 'shocking'. 😁 The point (which I assume you did realise) is that as each new poll comes out, there are more and more people who voted to leave, who believe that Brexit has failed.
|
|
|
Post by oggyoggy on May 22, 2023 18:19:23 GMT
There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin. It’s another pointless poll. Take no notice If only everyone had taken that attitude the day after the referendum
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 18:19:37 GMT
There’s remain voters who think brexit has been more of a success?? That’s the most shocking part of that poll. Also I’m not sure a leave voter saying brexit is bad = someone who would therefore vote rejoin. Yeah I noticed that too, odd but pretty inconsequential rather than 'shocking'. 😁 The point (which I assume you did realise) is that as each new poll comes out, there are more and more people who voted to leave, who believe that Brexit has failed. Obviously realised that. My point is that I don’t think people who know it’s a mess would therefore seek to reverse the decision. I would guess (and I could be wrong) you’re at least 2 GEs away from rejoin being on the table. Because the option of blaming the management of brexit will still be there for that long.
|
|