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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 28, 2023 18:27:49 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Feb 28, 2023 18:58:08 GMT
In the first article, it says that 94% of sheep exports were to the EU. Did we not already trade with Canada as part of the commonwealth? Have we since created new trade deals with China, the Philippines and the US that have surpassed the prior trade deals with the EU? Pardon my intrusion Yes 94% to EU In 2021 £17M in total Red Meat was Exported from UK to Canada, a drop in the ocean Someone else may have more up to date figures EU had negotiated a Trade Deal with China but it was suspended because of the Uyghurs UK is in a similar position Neither EU or US has a Trade deal with US which was supposed to be the big Brexit Prize Biden has no appetite for a Trade Deal despite NI Protocol being fixed Philippines as a Developing Nation is allowed to export practically all its products Tarrif Free so no advantage in Trade Deal with EU or UK
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 28, 2023 19:41:58 GMT
Not all brexiteers are racist. But all racists who voted, voted to leave. Brexit is mostly about the mythical “taking back control”. It has always been a right wing crusade, hence why the BNP, Ukip and the ERG are the biggest advocates of brexit. Brexit was done by the right wing establishment for the right wing establishment. Their greatest achievement was playing on fear and hate of the left, and also of the working classes, to get them on side. You are wrong. Brexit is in the interests of the working class of this country just as much as the right wing establishment. In fact it is the EU that is the cradle of capitalists. I am not a left winger myself, but I agree with the views expressed by the Workers of England article in 2016, which are: " The EU will influence the future of the NHS just as it helped smooth Tory privatisation of the Post Office and the organisational break-up of the railways; it is in tune with austerity and drives a larger and more deadly version in the eurozone; it escalates problems linked to housing, work, wages and education; creates worry and stirs up anger and threatens people’s sense of self. A lazy acceptance of establishment propaganda and a fear of being branded “xenophobic” have silenced many liberals and left-wingers. And yet the EU is driven by big business. This is a very corporate coup. It is essential to understand where the EU is heading. The mission? To create a centralised superstate." www.workersofengland.co.uk/w-e-u-news/the-left-wing-case-for-leaving-the-eu/Throughout most of the 20th century we saw wealth inequality falling in the UK, but that stopped when the UK joined the EEC. Since then inequality has been on the increase: www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2020/12/The-UKs-wealth-distribution.pdf Figure 1, page 15 The unelected EU Commission is dominated by corporate lobbying in Brussels. www.alter-eu.org/corporate-capture-in-europe-when-big-business-dominates-policy-making-and-threatens-our-rightThe EU Council of Ministers and parliament can only approve policy drafted by Brussels bureaucrats whose aim is ever closer union, gradually reducing the sovereignty of member countries. Nature is being destroyed by the Common Agricultural Policy driven by the business interests of food and chemical companies. friendsoftheearth.eu/corporate-power/corporate-capture/www.desmog.com/2021/12/09/network-agribusiness-chemicals-pesticides-lobbying-eu-sustainable-climate-farming/The whole corrupt set up of the EU is sickening to any decent citizen. We have left the EU thank God and are now enjoying the lowest unemployment in Britain in half a century. We have returned to the levels of unemployment not seen since before we went into Europe. British workers are receiving the largest wage increases not seen for decades. If you don't believe the EU drives poverty, look at what is happening in Germany during the last two decades: www.inspiredminds.de/en/poverty-in-germany/a-63414138During that time the UK has been assisting the German economy with a massive trade balance deficit. UK productivity has been poor for decades due to short term investment and reliance on cheap foreign labour. Higher labour costs will drive much needed investment in automation, robotics, etc. I am a free trader and opposed to the barriers the EU set up to protect the EU's capitalist market from world competition, and dress it up as " customs union". As Gaitskell once said joining "Europe" would be end of Britain as an independent state, and as Tony Benn said about the European Commission that if it drafts all the legislation and cannot be removed, we don't have democracy. A free trader who hates the biggest free trading bloc on earth! Good one Mr Coke. Left wing and working class brexit….it was never left wing or for the working classes. Unless Rees-Mogg and Farage are that!? Brexit related policy since brexit has been right wing and about taking away rights for workers and consumers in favour of big businesses
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 28, 2023 19:45:18 GMT
Not all brexiteers are racist. But all racists who voted, voted to leave. Brexit is mostly about the mythical “taking back control”. It has always been a right wing crusade, hence why the BNP, Ukip and the ERG are the biggest advocates of brexit. Brexit was done by the right wing establishment for the right wing establishment. Their greatest achievement was playing on fear and hate of the left, and also of the working classes, to get them on side. And you know this how.....? You know absolutely every single one of them and spoke to them asking them why they voted did you>? Youre just waffling now.... Yes. I know this. It is why Farage released lies about Turkey joining the EU and the leave propaganda showed people of colour and warned of mass immigration. Lies that idiots and racists lapped up. The BNP and Ukip are hardly friendly towards immigrants.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 28, 2023 21:35:06 GMT
Exports at record levels does help farmers I suggest: Indeed they do, if it were true, which it's not You still haven't replied Why Whisky, Chocolate and Gin Exports benefit Farmerswww.grampianonline.co.uk/news/red-meat-exports-from-the-uk-reach-record-levels-304133/Do you even read what you link? Partially driven by increased prices and Partially by improvement in Trade with EUWhy are you obsessed with exports to the EU? That's all we hear from those opposed to Brexit. We are now global Britain. The rest of the world market is 4 times greater than the EU and growing twice as fast. I'm not especially merely commenting on your link which said Exports to EU were up 30% last year, but not yet at pre Brexit Levels And that Exports to ROW were down 36%. Does this concern you?You might mock at Welsh lamb sales, Welsh farmers aren't. The potential of the North American market is massive and growing faster than the EU. You misjudge me, I have every concern for Welsh Lamb Farmers. Their biggest concern is that the Trade Deal with New Zealand has left them "High and Dry" www.walesfarmer.co.uk/news/19985833.farmers-left-high-dry-nz-trade-deal/Here's news from Scotland for you to mock: This is the same Article as above picked up from the same Wire Service so unfortunately not good news for Scottish Farmers
You don't get to count it twice because two different Magazines report the same storywww.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/business_sales/cattle_sales/23341114.uk-beef-exports-46-640m---sheepmeat-shipments-13-503m/Farmers grow barley, wheat, etc and sugarbeet for sugar that are used in the production of whiskey, gin, and chocolate. There seems to be denial on this thread that after a worldwide pandemic, within 2 years UK food and drink exports are at record levels in terms of value and volume. It will obviously take time to negotiate new trade deals that will boost UK exports of everything to the world. I need to post things numerous times for things to sink in it seems. On the subject of sugar, the recent fresh food shortages in the shops reminds me of the sugar crisis in 1975 when the UK joined the EEC. There was a national sugar crisis, rationing, and disturbances in supermarkets with people fighting over the sugar. It takes time for supply chains to adjust and they have been caught out by the bad weather in Spain and elsewhere.
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Post by wannabee on Feb 28, 2023 22:05:36 GMT
Farmers grow barley, wheat, etc and sugarbeet for sugar that are used in the production of whiskey, gin, and chocolate. There seems to be denial on this thread that after a worldwide pandemic, within 2 years UK food and drink exports are at record levels in terms of value and volume. It will obviously take time to negotiate new trade deals that will boost UK exports of everything to the world. I need to post things numerous times for things to sink in it seems. On the subject of sugar, the recent fresh food shortages in the shops reminds me of the sugar crisis in 1975 when the UK joined the EEC. There was a national sugar crisis, rationing, and disturbances in supermarkets with people fighting over the sugar. It takes time for supply chains to adjust and they have been caught out by the bad weather in Spain and elsewhere. GSCOP expert and former senior Asda buyer Ged Futter says the current supply shortages at UK supermarkets are down in large part to retailers’ all-consuming focus on price at the expense of product availability There are no reports of shortages in France and Germany, and European shoppers have shared photos of fully stocked fresh produce aisles. The same cannot be said of British supermarkets. The truth behind this contrasting situation is not difficult to find, even when hidden by statements blaming it all on the weather. Yes, the weather is a factor, but it is only one of the factors. The fact of the matter is UK retailers hedged their bets last year. They bet that they wouldn’t need to use UK greenhouses for produce in January and February, yet again they put all their money on black and it landed on red.
www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produce-journal/retailers-obsession-with-price-is-main-cause-of-produce-shortages/248419.article
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 1, 2023 9:47:19 GMT
Farmers grow barley, wheat, etc and sugarbeet for sugar that are used in the production of whiskey, gin, and chocolate. There seems to be denial on this thread that after a worldwide pandemic, within 2 years UK food and drink exports are at record levels in terms of value and volume. It will obviously take time to negotiate new trade deals that will boost UK exports of everything to the world. I need to post things numerous times for things to sink in it seems. On the subject of sugar, the recent fresh food shortages in the shops reminds me of the sugar crisis in 1975 when the UK joined the EEC. There was a national sugar crisis, rationing, and disturbances in supermarkets with people fighting over the sugar. It takes time for supply chains to adjust and they have been caught out by the bad weather in Spain and elsewhere. GSCOP expert and former senior Asda buyer Ged Futter says the current supply shortages at UK supermarkets are down in large part to retailers’ all-consuming focus on price at the expense of product availability There are no reports of shortages in France and Germany, and European shoppers have shared photos of fully stocked fresh produce aisles. The same cannot be said of British supermarkets. The truth behind this contrasting situation is not difficult to find, even when hidden by statements blaming it all on the weather. Yes, the weather is a factor, but it is only one of the factors. The fact of the matter is UK retailers hedged their bets last year. They bet that they wouldn’t need to use UK greenhouses for produce in January and February, yet again they put all their money on black and it landed on red.
www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produce-journal/retailers-obsession-with-price-is-main-cause-of-produce-shortages/248419.article
Thanks for that. I've said all along the food shortages have nothing to do with Brexit and apparently largely to do with supermarkets deciding last year to turn their backs on British suppliers for January and February and then being caught out by bad weather causing a shortage from their planned source of supply. Meanwhile France and Germany stuck with their regular suppliers. It has also been reported for example that the Dutch have been forced to reduce production due to the cost of energy to heat their greenhouses. Hopefully there is a lesson to learn and we see a lot more investment in UK farming to increase self sufficiency and spread our dependency to other countries. The way the supermarkets treat British producers is scandalous. There have repeated posts that crops are left to rot in fields because of labour shortages. Crops have been left to rot in fields for many years because farmers are encouraged to over produce, subsidised by the CAP, and then supermarkets choose not to buy resulting in massive food wastage across the whole of Europe. feedbackglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Farm_waste_report_.pdfWe reap what we sow and the British consumer shops where it is cheapest, so supermarkets are in a cut throat business. Suppliers (farmers, food processors, importers, wholesalers) and transport companies get squeezed, but then when a shortage occurs as with HGV drivers in 2021 (due to IR35 rules introduced in April 2021- not Brexit), the wheels fall off for a while till they get back to normal. We have all seen pictures in the past of British farmers pouring away their milk. It hit the headlines during the HGV driver shortage, but is has actually been going on for many years. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/16/dairy-farmers-milk-prices-economyThere is certainly no food shortages in Europe, just the opposite in fact. The CAP encourages massive over production. eeb.org/eu-wastes-more-food-than-it-imports-says-new-report/#:~:text=An%20estimated%2020%25%20of%20EU,of%20agricultural%20land%20%5B6%5D. Now we are out of the EU and the government have reduced trade barriers with other countries we can spread our dependency and get cheaper imports. www.gov.uk/government/news/new-trading-scheme-cuts-tariffs-on-hundreds-of-everyday-productsOf course change will not happen overnight it will take years for new trade to grow, but record trade figures in 2022 is a good start.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 1, 2023 11:18:18 GMT
GSCOP expert and former senior Asda buyer Ged Futter says the current supply shortages at UK supermarkets are down in large part to retailers’ all-consuming focus on price at the expense of product availability There are no reports of shortages in France and Germany, and European shoppers have shared photos of fully stocked fresh produce aisles. The same cannot be said of British supermarkets. The truth behind this contrasting situation is not difficult to find, even when hidden by statements blaming it all on the weather. Yes, the weather is a factor, but it is only one of the factors. The fact of the matter is UK retailers hedged their bets last year. They bet that they wouldn’t need to use UK greenhouses for produce in January and February, yet again they put all their money on black and it landed on red.
www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produce-journal/retailers-obsession-with-price-is-main-cause-of-produce-shortages/248419.article
Thanks for that. I've said all along the food shortages have nothing to do with Brexit and apparently largely to do with supermarkets deciding last year to turn their backs on British suppliers for January and February and then being caught out by bad weather causing a shortage from their planned source of supply. Meanwhile France and Germany stuck with their regular suppliers. It has also been reported for example that the Dutch have been forced to reduce production due to the cost of energy to heat their greenhouses. Hopefully there is a lesson to learn and we see a lot more investment in UK farming to increase self sufficiency and spread our dependency to other countries. The way the supermarkets treat British producers is scandalous. There have repeated posts that crops are left to rot in fields because of labour shortages. Crops have been left to rot in fields for many years because farmers are encouraged to over produce, subsidised by the CAP, and then supermarkets choose not to buy resulting in massive food wastage across the whole of Europe. feedbackglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Farm_waste_report_.pdfWe reap what we sow and the British consumer shops where it is cheapest, so supermarkets are in a cut throat business. Suppliers (farmers, food processors, importers, wholesalers) and transport companies get squeezed, but then when a shortage occurs as with HGV drivers in 2021 (due to IR35 rules introduced in April 2021- not Brexit), the wheels fall off for a while till they get back to normal. We have all seen pictures in the past of British farmers pouring away their milk. It hit the headlines during the HGV driver shortage, but is has actually been going on for many years. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/16/dairy-farmers-milk-prices-economyThere is certainly no food shortages in Europe, just the opposite in fact. The CAP encourages massive over production. eeb.org/eu-wastes-more-food-than-it-imports-says-new-report/#:~:text=An%20estimated%2020%25%20of%20EU,of%20agricultural%20land%20%5B6%5D. Now we are out of the EU and the government have reduced trade barriers with other countries we can spread our dependency and get cheaper imports. www.gov.uk/government/news/new-trading-scheme-cuts-tariffs-on-hundreds-of-everyday-productsOf course change will not happen overnight it will take years for new trade to grow, but record trade figures in 2022 is a good start. I don't disagree with a lot of what you say above, not all quite obviously Yesterday on Politics Live there was an unusually heated discussion about Tomatoes and the cause of the shortage The Panelist were Kit Malthouse (Boris's mate from days as Mayor) Isabel Oakenshott ( Richard Tice's latest squeeze) Jaqui Smith (ex Labour Home Secretary) and Jim MacMahon (Labour Shadow Minister for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) The heat was raised quite high including people being told to shut up when Smith posed that in any problem situation there are usually several factors in play and she was tired of Brexiteers not acknowledging that it is one of them My analogy, if I'm a Seville Tomatoe grower and I usually produce 100 Tomatoes I sell 80 of them to mainland Europe and 20 to UK. This year due to weather conditions I only produce 80 so what do I do? I sell to where I will get the best return. The factors I consider are Transport Cost, Price (are UK Supermarkets playing hardball?) and Administrative Costs (none in Single Market) So depending on how high or low you weight it, Brexit Paperwork Cost it is a factor. This year through imperfect planning/calculation we had a Perfect Storm Low yield in Spain due to Weather, High Energy Cost due to Ukraine, UK Tomatoe Growers not supported by Government with Energy Bills so not starting to grow the usual safety net supply and whether you like it or not UK being an unattractive market geographically but also extra administration cost. Food Security will increasingly become an issue in UK. Consecutive Governments have pursued a cheap food policy largely achieved by imports. I think you favour UK becoming more self sufficient in its food supply, so do I, but Government strategy is aimed directly opposite. I'm not going to debate CAP versus Elms suffice to say many, not all, Farmers are very unhappy. Trade Deals with New Zealand and Australia are aimed at importing cheap Beef and Lamb. Fruit and Veg Growers have substantially cut back on planting due to shortage of labour to harvest, so too Grape Growers for Wine. Not a Government issue but large Supermarket chains are constantly eroding Farmers margins. There will always be a Market for high quality UK Product, but there is a danger it will become a niche market the exact opposite of Food Security. In recent Household Economic Crisis the sale of mincemeat has soared if longer term eating cheaper cuts of meat and reduced homegrown fresh vegetables will lower the general health of the Nation which leads to further health complications I would like to see a joined up Food and Health Strategy which protects the environment rewards the growers fairly and universally provides environmentally grown nutritious food to the consumer Inevitably this would lead to higher food prices at least in the short term, which would need to be subsidised at the source or the consumer
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 1, 2023 13:57:34 GMT
My analogy, if I'm a Seville Tomatoe grower and I usually produce 100 Tomatoes I sell 80 of them to mainland Europe and 20 to UK. This year due to weather conditions I only produce 80 so what do I do? I sell to where I will get the best return. Exactly. That's why supermarket shelves are full in the EU and are empty here ... we are now last in the queue. I really don't understand why some people appear to be struggling with this very simple explanation.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 1, 2023 16:57:53 GMT
Thanks for that. I've said all along the food shortages have nothing to do with Brexit and apparently largely to do with supermarkets deciding last year to turn their backs on British suppliers for January and February and then being caught out by bad weather causing a shortage from their planned source of supply. Meanwhile France and Germany stuck with their regular suppliers. It has also been reported for example that the Dutch have been forced to reduce production due to the cost of energy to heat their greenhouses. Hopefully there is a lesson to learn and we see a lot more investment in UK farming to increase self sufficiency and spread our dependency to other countries. The way the supermarkets treat British producers is scandalous. There have repeated posts that crops are left to rot in fields because of labour shortages. Crops have been left to rot in fields for many years because farmers are encouraged to over produce, subsidised by the CAP, and then supermarkets choose not to buy resulting in massive food wastage across the whole of Europe. feedbackglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Farm_waste_report_.pdfWe reap what we sow and the British consumer shops where it is cheapest, so supermarkets are in a cut throat business. Suppliers (farmers, food processors, importers, wholesalers) and transport companies get squeezed, but then when a shortage occurs as with HGV drivers in 2021 (due to IR35 rules introduced in April 2021- not Brexit), the wheels fall off for a while till they get back to normal. We have all seen pictures in the past of British farmers pouring away their milk. It hit the headlines during the HGV driver shortage, but is has actually been going on for many years. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/16/dairy-farmers-milk-prices-economyThere is certainly no food shortages in Europe, just the opposite in fact. The CAP encourages massive over production. eeb.org/eu-wastes-more-food-than-it-imports-says-new-report/#:~:text=An%20estimated%2020%25%20of%20EU,of%20agricultural%20land%20%5B6%5D. Now we are out of the EU and the government have reduced trade barriers with other countries we can spread our dependency and get cheaper imports. www.gov.uk/government/news/new-trading-scheme-cuts-tariffs-on-hundreds-of-everyday-productsOf course change will not happen overnight it will take years for new trade to grow, but record trade figures in 2022 is a good start. I don't disagree with a lot of what you say above, not all quite obviously Yesterday on Politics Live there was an unusually heated discussion about Tomatoes and the cause of the shortage The Panelist were Kit Malthouse (Boris's mate from days as Mayor) Isabel Oakenshott ( Richard Tice's latest squeeze) Jaqui Smith (ex Labour Home Secretary) and Jim MacMahon (Labour Shadow Minister for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) The heat was raised quite high including people being told to shut up when Smith posed that in any problem situation there are usually several factors in play and she was tired of Brexiteers not acknowledging that it is one of them My analogy, if I'm a Seville Tomatoe grower and I usually produce 100 Tomatoes I sell 80 of them to mainland Europe and 20 to UK. This year due to weather conditions I only produce 80 so what do I do? I sell to where I will get the best return. The factors I consider are Transport Cost, Price (are UK Supermarkets playing hardball?) and Administrative Costs (none in Single Market) So depending on how high or low you weight it, Brexit Paperwork Cost it is a factor. This year through imperfect planning/calculation we had a Perfect Storm Low yield in Spain due to Weather, High Energy Cost due to Ukraine, UK Tomatoe Growers not supported by Government with Energy Bills so not starting to grow the usual safety net supply and whether you like it or not UK being an unattractive market geographically but also extra administration cost. Food Security will increasingly become an issue in UK. Consecutive Governments have pursued a cheap food policy largely achieved by imports. I think you favour UK becoming more self sufficient in its food supply, so do I, but Government strategy is aimed directly opposite. I'm not going to debate CAP versus Elms suffice to say many, not all, Farmers are very unhappy. Trade Deals with New Zealand and Australia are aimed at importing cheap Beef and Lamb. Fruit and Veg Growers have substantially cut back on planting due to shortage of labour to harvest, so too Grape Growers for Wine. Not a Government issue but large Supermarket chains are constantly eroding Farmers margins. There will always be a Market for high quality UK Product, but there is a danger it will become a niche market the exact opposite of Food Security. In recent Household Economic Crisis the sale of mincemeat has soared if longer term eating cheaper cuts of meat and reduced homegrown fresh vegetables will lower the general health of the Nation which leads to further health complications I would like to see a joined up Food and Health Strategy which protects the environment rewards the growers fairly and universally provides environmentally grown nutritious food to the consumer Inevitably this would lead to higher food prices at least in the short term, which would need to be subsidised at the source or the consumer They would be subsidized at the level of the consumer. That can already be seen by some he cost increase of organic foods. We do a lot of farm to table work in Virginia, but it’s much more expensive. The quality is vastly improved, but it isn’t available for the majority. What percentage of British farmers are independent, i.e. not just selling their product (or working directly for) Tesco et al?
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Post by wannabee on Mar 1, 2023 18:08:00 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 1, 2023 18:27:33 GMT
Even the Telegraph accepts that the Brexit 'project' is now dead.
I hope I live long enough to see a historical appraisal of Brexit for what it really was, and that the last few remaining Brexiteers are reduced to "if only it had been done properly it would've been fine" type nonsense.
Probably about 15 to 20 years away I reckon, by which time I hope we have realigned almost completely with the EU.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Mar 1, 2023 19:24:43 GMT
Even the Telegraph accepts that the Brexit 'project' is now dead. I hope I live long enough to see a historical appraisal of Brexit for what it really was, and that the last few remaining Brexiteers are reduced to "if only it had been done properly it would've been fine" type nonsense. Probably about 15 to 20 years away I reckon, by which time I hope we have realigned almost completely with the EU. Considering some still claim Brexit is not responsible for problems being faced by the UK, it is noticeable that all the focus is on reversing the changes brought about by Brexit.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 1, 2023 21:39:00 GMT
Even the Telegraph accepts that the Brexit 'project' is now dead. I hope I live long enough to see a historical appraisal of Brexit for what it really was, and that the last few remaining Brexiteers are reduced to "if only it had been done properly it would've been fine" type nonsense. Probably about 15 to 20 years away I reckon, by which time I hope we have realigned almost completely with the EU. Considering some still claim Brexit is not responsible for problems being faced by the UK, it is noticeable that all the focus is on reversing the changes brought about by Brexit. Exactly, and I think most people can live with that. Sunak and the rest of them don't necessarily need to offer continual mea culpas, just get on with repairing the damage as they are doing. Nobody really gives much of a shit about Brexit and the EU anymore, we've basically gone back to how it was about 15 years ago, which underlines how pointless the last seven years have been. Most people just want reliable public services, food in supermarkets and affordable energy. Those are what really matter and if realignment with our neighbours helps to make those things better, I doubt whether anyone really cares if that means undoing most of Brexit.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 2, 2023 23:36:25 GMT
Even the Telegraph accepts that the Brexit 'project' is now dead. I hope I live long enough to see a historical appraisal of Brexit for what it really was, and that the last few remaining Brexiteers are reduced to "if only it had been done properly it would've been fine" type nonsense. Probably about 15 to 20 years away I reckon, by which time I hope we have realigned almost completely with the EU. Considering some still claim Brexit is not responsible for problems being faced by the UK, it is noticeable that all the focus is on reversing the changes brought about by Brexit. "They need us more than we need them" Realism www.ft.com/content/7c1d2ed0-d1f5-4685-b15d-6fdb632f6405Further realism www.science.org/content/article/u-k-scientists-hope-regain-access-eu-grants-after-northern-ireland-deal
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Post by wannabee on Mar 4, 2023 12:21:30 GMT
My point was answering the claim that Brexit was damaging the construction industry and inflated building materials cost. The reality is until the recent hikes in interest rates, UK construction has been booming, as evidenced by builders profits, and prices are being inflated by demand and energy costs, which have received less subsidy in the UK than many EU countries. When was the last time we were building so many houses? Wasn't a vote for Brexit in 2016 going to cause a collapse in house prices? Remember project fear: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-referendum-george-osborne-house-prices-brexitDo you think your statement has aged well? House completions set to fall to lowest level since (don't mention) the War www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/feb/26/england-new-housing-housebuilding-planning-policyAnd what do you make of your vaunted HS2 which you point to as UK Investment success www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/03/hs2-rail-line-could-be-further-delayed-to-cut-costs-says-bossNo wonder its projected to be Europe's biggest construction project The Budget has gone from £33Bn to £71Bn, some say £100Bn who knows the project keeps changing
Sections of the project have been cut, the speed of Trains cut so can no longer call it high speed, the number and frequency of Trains halved and like Ryanair if it ever gets finished in its now reduced form in 2041 (don't hold your breath) it will get you nearish to where you want to go. What to you account for the Germans, French or Spanish not encountering the cost or delivery problems when they completed High Speed Train Links decades ago?
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Post by wannabee on Mar 5, 2023 11:18:06 GMT
Take back control of our Borders.... by having less real time intelligence to do so www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/01/uk-police-and-border-force-to-remain-locked-out-of-eu-database-of-criminalsAnother false Brexit promise when reality meets rhetoric Another reality related to this not explained in the Guardian Article is that UK retains only its limited access to this data by maintaining EU GDPR In their heady excitement to Bonfire EU Law, GDPR was a prime target for the Pyre by the Moggy's to be replaced of course by a better slimmed down UK Law. It has now been hastily scrapped www.decisionmarketing.co.uk/news/government-performs-u-turn-on-plans-to-ditch-gdprI'm pondering will this effect Sovereignty by following EU Law? Increasingly to most rational thinking people Brexit was an ill conceived concept with the Financial and Administrative consequences not fully thought through. As Red and others have said when reality meets practicality UK will seamlessly move closer and closer to EU alignment to the point it will be indistinguishable whether we are in or out. A bit like Norway and Switzerland
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Mar 6, 2023 17:56:13 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2023 13:13:47 GMT
Why on earth is Ferrari asking for the opinion of a hugely successful British businessman, surely he should be asking Reese-Mogg or Farage, in order to get a more honest response! 🙄
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 8, 2023 7:55:55 GMT
Why on earth is Ferrari asking for the opinion of a hugely successful British businessman, surely he should be asking Reese-Mogg or Farage, in order to get a more honest response! 🙄 Or our very own MrCoke who believes in record levels of investment in post Brexit UK. Not long before he pops up on GB News surely!
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Post by wannabee on Mar 8, 2023 16:46:02 GMT
There are far less preposterous claims on here and in the Media. Most now shirk away from the subject rather than expose themselves to ridicule
Previous arguments in favour of Brexit were invalid because they arrived at a conclusion which they would like to see and used it as a premise. Reality is different.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2023 18:56:55 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Mar 9, 2023 21:06:49 GMT
So the "biggest Construction Project in Europe HS2" (which is not actually not under construction) and hailed by Brexiteers as a demonstration of UK Investment and Brexit success is a bust.
Reality is Brexit has tanked the economy leaving no room for investment
Typically like Brexit, Promise Much Deliver Little
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 9, 2023 22:05:20 GMT
So the "biggest Construction Project in Europe HS2" (which is not actually not under construction) and hailed by Brexiteers as a demonstration of UK Investment and Brexit success is a bust. Reality is Brexit has tanked the economy leaving no room for investment Typically like Brexit, Promise Much Deliver Little Spare a thought tonight for one of HS2's biggest supporters, coincidentally also the last remaining cheerleader for Brexit on here...ouch.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 9, 2023 22:31:15 GMT
So the "biggest Construction Project in Europe HS2" (which is not actually not under construction) and hailed by Brexiteers as a demonstration of UK Investment and Brexit success is a bust. Reality is Brexit has tanked the economy leaving no room for investment Typically like Brexit, Promise Much Deliver Little Where on earth have you got the idea that most brexiteers support hs2? Mystifying viewpoint. I'm pretty sure if you did a referendum on Brexiteers for or against h2, I'd strongly suspect the vast majority despise hs2. Outside of various pro hs2 investment groups, useless government mouthpieces, hs2 employees (understandably) and a few privileged hipsters in the likes of Brixton, Islington and Hackney who find the idea of convenience between hopping between Manchester and London while WFH quite exciting, I don't know anyone who supports it. Local infrastructure is dire. Sort that out first.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 9, 2023 22:53:47 GMT
So the "biggest Construction Project in Europe HS2" (which is not actually not under construction) and hailed by Brexiteers as a demonstration of UK Investment and Brexit success is a bust. Reality is Brexit has tanked the economy leaving no room for investment Typically like Brexit, Promise Much Deliver Little Where on earth have you got the idea that most brexiteers support hs2? Mystifying viewpoint. I'm pretty sure if you did a referendum on Brexiteers for or against h2, I'd strongly suspect the vast majority despise hs2. Outside of various pro hs2 investment groups, useless government mouthpieces, hs2 employees (understandably) and a few privileged hipsters in the likes of Brixton, Islington and Hackney who find the idea of convenience between hopping between Manchester and London while WFH quite exciting, I don't know anyone who supports it. Local infrastructure is dire. Sort that out first. I'll take is as read that your not an avid follower of this thread Bianco If you were you would know that the most entrenched Brexit Supporter on this thread is also an avid HS2 supporter Red (above) and I were being a little playful at what must be his discomfort. However I have no doubt he will come back in the fullness of time defending both, no matter how ludicrous the arguments
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Post by gawa on Mar 9, 2023 23:00:52 GMT
Where on earth have you got the idea that most brexiteers support hs2? Mystifying viewpoint. I'm pretty sure if you did a referendum on Brexiteers for or against h2, I'd strongly suspect the vast majority despise hs2. Outside of various pro hs2 investment groups, useless government mouthpieces, hs2 employees (understandably) and a few privileged hipsters in the likes of Brixton, Islington and Hackney who find the idea of convenience between hopping between Manchester and London while WFH quite exciting, I don't know anyone who supports it. Local infrastructure is dire. Sort that out first. I'll take is as read that your not an avid follower of this thread Bianco If you were you would know that the most entrenched Brexit Supporter on this thread is also an avid HS2 supporter Red (above) and I were being a little playful at what must be his discomfort. However I have no doubt he will come back in the fullness of time defending both, no matter how ludicrous the arguments Here at least he argues in what he believes in and puts time into his posts. I find them a bit challenging to read myself which is why I abstain from the thread mostly. But you've got to respect the fact that he will put time into his arguments and provide his sources too.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 9, 2023 23:11:05 GMT
I'll take is as read that your not an avid follower of this thread Bianco If you were you would know that the most entrenched Brexit Supporter on this thread is also an avid HS2 supporter Red (above) and I were being a little playful at what must be his discomfort. However I have no doubt he will come back in the fullness of time defending both, no matter how ludicrous the arguments Here at least he argues in what he believes in and puts time into his posts. I find them a bit challenging to read myself which is why I abstain from the thread mostly. But you've got to respect the fact that he will put time into his arguments and provide his sources too. In keeping with the mood on the MB tonight on the Lineker thread and I'll preface by saying I'm not making any comparisons with the person concerned but a certain gentleman in Germany in the 1930s was very committed to his ideology, he even wrote a Book about it. It didn't make him right no matter how committed he was.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Mar 9, 2023 23:18:24 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Mar 10, 2023 0:29:10 GMT
What exactly are you saying here Fog? Surely your not accusing the Government of having a deliberate juxtaposition? I think the common vernacular is "Speaking out of the both sides of your mouth " I for one refuse to believe that a Labour Construction shortage of Brickies, Carpenters, Electricians etc will in anyway impede Construction and the forecast of the lowest House Completions in 2023 in decades is more of what we saw in Project Fear We only have to look at this Governments record in Johnson's pledge to build 40 new Hospitals and Hey Presto, look what happened For anyone having difficulty getting beyond FT Firewall a similar article www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-immigration-builders-construction-b2297207.html%3famp
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