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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 24, 2022 9:02:52 GMT
Woohoo! The bonfire of EU laws can really get going: www.theguardian.com/law/2022/oct/24/post-brexit-proposals-mean-2400-laws-could-disappear-lawyers-warnWe can have new freedoms in our sovereign nation to test animals with cosmetics, disapply protections to the environment, we can release nitrates and phosphates into rivers, no need to test for water quality, to use more pesticides banned in the EU, reduce requirements around air pollution, increase contractual working hours for employees, allow for lower quality health products, allow chlorinated chicken, reduce hygiene standards for businesses, reduce food quality, reduce safety requirements for baby products, reduce rights to holiday pay and parental leave, lower food labelling requirements etc And all in breach of the Northern Ireland protocol we championed and fought so hard for (and now wish to undermine!). And despite government lawyers and external lawyers warning the cliff edge of end of 2023 is far too soon to achieve a rewriting of all of the above (and far more), the government are pressing on so that we don’t have time to replace the above or think through what domestic laws we need to replace them. And the government has given itself the power to change all of the above without proper legislation or scrutiny or debate. Ministers can just do whatever they want (or whatever their lobbiest friend asks them to do). Fantastic. Brexit achieves sovereignty for a government to act without checks and balances to reduce all our rights and protections! Another brexit bonus!?
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 24, 2022 10:12:31 GMT
Woohoo! The bonfire of EU laws can really get going: www.theguardian.com/law/2022/oct/24/post-brexit-proposals-mean-2400-laws-could-disappear-lawyers-warnWe can have new freedoms in our sovereign nation to test animals with cosmetics, disapply protections to the environment, we can release nitrates and phosphates into rivers, no need to test for water quality, to use more pesticides banned in the EU, reduce requirements around air pollution, increase contractual working hours for employees, allow for lower quality health products, allow chlorinated chicken, reduce hygiene standards for businesses, reduce food quality, reduce safety requirements for baby products, reduce rights to holiday pay and parental leave, lower food labelling requirements etc And all in breach of the Northern Ireland protocol we championed and fought so hard for (and now wish to undermine!). And despite government lawyers and external lawyers warning the cliff edge of end of 2023 is far too soon to achieve a rewriting of all of the above (and far more), the government are pressing on so that we don’t have time to replace the above or think through what domestic laws we need to replace them. And the government has given itself the power to change all of the above without proper legislation or scrutiny or debate. Ministers can just do whatever they want (or whatever their lobbiest friend asks them to do). Fantastic. Brexit achieves sovereignty for a government to act without checks and balances to reduce all our rights and protections! Another brexit bonus!? For once we are agreed oggy. New freedom and sovereignty unfortunately can lead to things worse if we have bad government. But it doesn't have to be than way, we can have better government than being ruled by EU legislation. Take my favourit topic pollution and the environment. The EU has introduced good legislation on environment but at the same time, the CAP is destroying the environment. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63285821By phasing out the CAP and stopping intensive farming and adopting more ecologically friendly farming we can make the UK environment better than the EU. The proposed bonfire of EU regulation is bad news, we need a steady constructive approach to unpicking half a century of EU rules, but that is clearly going to take a long time and UK politicians are only interested in winning the next election. www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/pollution-and-barriers-are-keyPeople blame sewage for river pollution, but the actual main cause of river pollution across Europe is intensive farming. www.fao.org/land-water/news-archive/news-detail/en/c/1032702/
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 24, 2022 10:29:12 GMT
Woohoo! The bonfire of EU laws can really get going: www.theguardian.com/law/2022/oct/24/post-brexit-proposals-mean-2400-laws-could-disappear-lawyers-warnWe can have new freedoms in our sovereign nation to test animals with cosmetics, disapply protections to the environment, we can release nitrates and phosphates into rivers, no need to test for water quality, to use more pesticides banned in the EU, reduce requirements around air pollution, increase contractual working hours for employees, allow for lower quality health products, allow chlorinated chicken, reduce hygiene standards for businesses, reduce food quality, reduce safety requirements for baby products, reduce rights to holiday pay and parental leave, lower food labelling requirements etc And all in breach of the Northern Ireland protocol we championed and fought so hard for (and now wish to undermine!). And despite government lawyers and external lawyers warning the cliff edge of end of 2023 is far too soon to achieve a rewriting of all of the above (and far more), the government are pressing on so that we don’t have time to replace the above or think through what domestic laws we need to replace them. And the government has given itself the power to change all of the above without proper legislation or scrutiny or debate. Ministers can just do whatever they want (or whatever their lobbiest friend asks them to do). Fantastic. Brexit achieves sovereignty for a government to act without checks and balances to reduce all our rights and protections! Another brexit bonus!? For once we are agreed oggy. New freedom and sovereignty unfortunately can lead to things worse if we have bad government. But it doesn't have to be than way, we can have better government than being ruled by EU legislation. Take my favourit topic pollution and the environment. The EU has introduced good legislation on environment but at the same time, the CAP is destroying the environment. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63285821By phasing out the CAP and stopping intensive farming and adopting more ecologically friendly farming we can make the UK environment better than the EU. The proposed bonfire of EU regulation is bad news, we need a steady constructive approach to unpicking half a century of EU rules, but that is clearly going to take a long time and UK politicians are only interested in winning the next election. www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/pollution-and-barriers-are-keyBut having fundamentals enshrined in EU law is a good thing that protects against bad government. Good government can always enhance our protections. But under EU rules they can never be taken away. Brexiteers were naive to think that the far right brexit would improve anything for workers or consumers. They said they would deregulate. That is what this is. The lack of scrutiny is the real concern. And what a waste of public resources. Why not decide what we want in place of the EU laws before getting rid? Because brexit is fundamentally driven by xenophobia. The hatred of anything foreign and the arrogance of Brits thinking we are better than anything foreign just because it is foreign.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 24, 2022 11:23:13 GMT
For once we are agreed oggy. New freedom and sovereignty unfortunately can lead to things worse if we have bad government. But it doesn't have to be than way, we can have better government than being ruled by EU legislation. Take my favourit topic pollution and the environment. The EU has introduced good legislation on environment but at the same time, the CAP is destroying the environment. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63285821By phasing out the CAP and stopping intensive farming and adopting more ecologically friendly farming we can make the UK environment better than the EU. The proposed bonfire of EU regulation is bad news, we need a steady constructive approach to unpicking half a century of EU rules, but that is clearly going to take a long time and UK politicians are only interested in winning the next election. www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/pollution-and-barriers-are-keyBut having fundamentals enshrined in EU law is a good thing that protects against bad government. Good government can always enhance our protections. But under EU rules they can never be taken away. Brexiteers were naive to think that the far right brexit would improve anything for workers or consumers. They said they would deregulate. That is what this is. The lack of scrutiny is the real concern. And what a waste of public resources. Why not decide what we want in place of the EU laws before getting rid? Because brexit is fundamentally driven by xenophobia. The hatred of anything foreign and the arrogance of Brits thinking we are better than anything foreign just because it is foreign. I fully agree with your last paragraph. I am totally opposed to any rules that " can never be taken away". .I am also totally opposed to a court of judges almost entirely composed of judges from other countries that sits in judgement on the UK, whose objective is to see European law is enforced and not what is natural justice or in the UK's best interests, or in the interests of the environment, eg forcing the UK government to increase VAT on renewable energy when we were an EU member. www.ask-renewables.co.uk/vat-rise-for-solar-panels-why-who-will-it-affect/
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Post by wannabee on Oct 25, 2022 0:31:16 GMT
But having fundamentals enshrined in EU law is a good thing that protects against bad government. Good government can always enhance our protections. But under EU rules they can never be taken away. Brexiteers were naive to think that the far right brexit would improve anything for workers or consumers. They said they would deregulate. That is what this is. The lack of scrutiny is the real concern. And what a waste of public resources. Why not decide what we want in place of the EU laws before getting rid? Because brexit is fundamentally driven by xenophobia. The hatred of anything foreign and the arrogance of Brits thinking we are better than anything foreign just because it is foreign. I fully agree with your last paragraph. I am totally opposed to any rules that " can never be taken away". .I am also totally opposed to a court of judges almost entirely composed of judges from other countries that sits in judgement on the UK, whose objective is to see European law is enforced and not what is natural justice or in the UK's best interests, or in the interests of the environment, eg forcing the UK government to increase VAT on renewable energy when we were an EU member. www.ask-renewables.co.uk/vat-rise-for-solar-panels-why-who-will-it-affect/UK left EU fully on 1st January 2021 after Transition Period Remind me on what the respective dates UK añd EU reduced VAT to 0% on Renewables?
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2022 9:44:11 GMT
I fully agree with your last paragraph. I am totally opposed to any rules that " can never be taken away". .I am also totally opposed to a court of judges almost entirely composed of judges from other countries that sits in judgement on the UK, whose objective is to see European law is enforced and not what is natural justice or in the UK's best interests, or in the interests of the environment, eg forcing the UK government to increase VAT on renewable energy when we were an EU member. www.ask-renewables.co.uk/vat-rise-for-solar-panels-why-who-will-it-affect/UK left EU fully on 1st January 2021 after Transition Period Remind me on what the respective dates UK añd EU reduced VAT to 0% on Renewables? The EU has not reduced VAT to 0% on renewables. The UK Spring budget this year removed VAT on renewables for 5 years from April this year. This provided an immediate boost to green initiatives in the UK, and reversed the action taken when the UK was a member of the EU to increase VAT at the direction of the European Court Of Justice. EU Directive No. 2022/542 in April 5 this year included a new clause to allow member states will be free to apply a VAT rate of 0% to 5%, i.e. the directive to have a higher rate that was imposed by the ECOJ on the UK was removed. The UK showed the EU the error of its ways. This change in EU legislation was alongside pharmaceutical, contraceptive and hygienic protection products, medical protection products, transport and passenger transport services, books, newspapers and paper publications and digital media, among others. When the EU issues a directive, there is then often a lengthy process for each country to put the directive into their national legislation by a certain date. If they fail that is where the ECOJ come in. It follows that even though the EU introduced the above directive in April there will be EU countries that have still not reduced VAT on renewables to below 5%; they don't have to zero rate. Incidentally the UK removed VAT on women's sanitary products the day we left the EU, the first bit of EU legislation to be scrapped. This debate is immaterial; the point is that Britain is longer subject to directives and policies from the EU. I accept that most EU law is sensible and good. The idea the Tories have of a bonfire of legislation is nonsense. Conversely some EU law is bad for example the CAP is destroying the planet as I have repeatedly gone into at length.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 25, 2022 10:59:33 GMT
UK left EU fully on 1st January 2021 after Transition Period Remind me on what the respective dates UK añd EU reduced VAT to 0% on Renewables? The EU has not reduced VAT to 0% on renewables. The UK Spring budget this year removed VAT on renewables for 5 years from April this year. This provided an immediate boost to green initiatives in the UK, and reversed the action taken when the UK was a member of the EU to increase VAT at the direction of the European Court Of Justice. EU Directive No. 2022/542 in April 5 this year included a new clause to allow member states will be free to apply a VAT rate of 0% to 5%, i.e. the directive to have a higher rate that was imposed by the ECOJ on the UK was removed. The UK showed the EU the error of its ways. This change in EU legislation was alongside pharmaceutical, contraceptive and hygienic protection products, medical protection products, transport and passenger transport services, books, newspapers and paper publications and digital media, among others. When the EU issues a directive, there is then often a lengthy process for each country to put the directive into their national legislation by a certain date. If they fail that is where the ECOJ come in. 1. It follows that even though the EU introduced the above directive in April there will be EU countries that have still not reduced VAT on renewables to below 5%; they don't have to zero rate. Incidentally the UK removed VAT on women's sanitary products the day we left the EU, the first bit of EU legislation to be scrapped. This debate is immaterial; the point is that Britain is longer subject to directives and policies from the EU. I accept that most EU law is sensible and good. The idea the Tories have of a bonfire of legislation is nonsense. 2. Conversely some EU law is bad for example the CAP is destroying the planet as I have repeatedly gone into at length.
1. Isn't this EU Countries exercising there Sovereignty to do things when they feel appropriate 2. If Old CAP is destroying the Planet why are UK continuing this system for next 3 years under ELM scheme when it promised this would be one of the biggest Brexit Bonuses? Every single Environmental group is up in Arms about this UK U-Turn and is promising Direct Action. Will you be joining it? You can't do anything without Money and the ELM budget is £2.4B under New CAP it would have been £3.5B The Environmental portion of the ELM budget has been slashed from £800M to a ridiculous £50M " Instead, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) sources disclosed, they are considering paying landowners a yearly set sum for each acre of land they own, which would be similar to the much-maligned EU basic payments scheme of the common agricultural policy".www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/brexit-bonus-farmers-poised-to-scrapMeanwhile the New EU CAP which will be for 7 years and will be properly funded.Each Sovereign Country devised is own plan within the parameters of an emphasis on small to medium farmers with 40% of Budget devoted to Climate Action agriculture.ec.europa.eu/common-agricultural-policy/cap-overview/new-cap-2023-27/key-reforms-new-cap_enPlease don't say it's because our Government is useless and can't be trusted to keep its promises, we all know that. Therefore we would have been better off within EU and have a properly funded Budget that protects the Environment
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 25, 2022 11:38:30 GMT
But having fundamentals enshrined in EU law is a good thing that protects against bad government. Good government can always enhance our protections. But under EU rules they can never be taken away. Brexiteers were naive to think that the far right brexit would improve anything for workers or consumers. They said they would deregulate. That is what this is. The lack of scrutiny is the real concern. And what a waste of public resources. Why not decide what we want in place of the EU laws before getting rid? Because brexit is fundamentally driven by xenophobia. The hatred of anything foreign and the arrogance of Brits thinking we are better than anything foreign just because it is foreign. I fully agree with your last paragraph. I am totally opposed to any rules that " can never be taken away". .I am also totally opposed to a court of judges almost entirely composed of judges from other countries that sits in judgement on the UK, whose objective is to see European law is enforced and not what is natural justice or in the UK's best interests, or in the interests of the environment, eg forcing the UK government to increase VAT on renewable energy when we were an EU member. www.ask-renewables.co.uk/vat-rise-for-solar-panels-why-who-will-it-affect/So you are aware, Judges in this country are not here to make decisions based on “natural justice” or that are “in the UK’s best interests”. They just interpret the law. Less than 1% of 1% of cases got to the Supreme Court, let alone the ECJ, the next level of appeal (only if it relates to EU law). So there are a minute number of decisions made by ECJ judges that have any impact on us, and the vast majority of those are against big businesses for the benefit of consumers or workers, so are in fact really good for us. You just don’t like anything foreign having a say over us but then contradict yourself if you think we should still be part of the UN security council, or a member of NATO, or conducting trade under WTO rules. We don’t singularly set those rules.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2022 12:50:21 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2022 14:14:30 GMT
The EU has not reduced VAT to 0% on renewables. The UK Spring budget this year removed VAT on renewables for 5 years from April this year. This provided an immediate boost to green initiatives in the UK, and reversed the action taken when the UK was a member of the EU to increase VAT at the direction of the European Court Of Justice. EU Directive No. 2022/542 in April 5 this year included a new clause to allow member states will be free to apply a VAT rate of 0% to 5%, i.e. the directive to have a higher rate that was imposed by the ECOJ on the UK was removed. The UK showed the EU the error of its ways. This change in EU legislation was alongside pharmaceutical, contraceptive and hygienic protection products, medical protection products, transport and passenger transport services, books, newspapers and paper publications and digital media, among others. When the EU issues a directive, there is then often a lengthy process for each country to put the directive into their national legislation by a certain date. If they fail that is where the ECOJ come in. 1. It follows that even though the EU introduced the above directive in April there will be EU countries that have still not reduced VAT on renewables to below 5%; they don't have to zero rate. Incidentally the UK removed VAT on women's sanitary products the day we left the EU, the first bit of EU legislation to be scrapped. This debate is immaterial; the point is that Britain is longer subject to directives and policies from the EU. I accept that most EU law is sensible and good. The idea the Tories have of a bonfire of legislation is nonsense. 2. Conversely some EU law is bad for example the CAP is destroying the planet as I have repeatedly gone into at length.
1. Isn't this EU Countries exercising there Sovereignty to do things when they feel appropriate 2. If Old CAP is destroying the Planet why are UK continuing this system for next 3 years under ELM scheme when it promised this would be one of the biggest Brexit Bonuses? Every single Environmental group is up in Arms about this UK U-Turn and is promising Direct Action. Will you be joining it? You can't do anything without Money and the ELM budget is £2.4B under New CAP it would have been £3.5B The Environmental portion of the ELM budget has been slashed from £800M to a ridiculous £50M " Instead, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) sources disclosed, they are considering paying landowners a yearly set sum for each acre of land they own, which would be similar to the much-maligned EU basic payments scheme of the common agricultural policy".www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/brexit-bonus-farmers-poised-to-scrapMeanwhile the New EU CAP which will be for 7 years and will be properly funded.Each Sovereign Country devised is own plan within the parameters of an emphasis on small to medium farmers with 40% of Budget devoted to Climate Action agriculture.ec.europa.eu/common-agricultural-policy/cap-overview/new-cap-2023-27/key-reforms-new-cap_enPlease don't say it's because our Government is useless and can't be trusted to keep its promises, we all know that. Therefore we would have been better off within EU and have a properly funded Budget that protects the Environment 1. Yes, individual countries are allowed to exercise their own rules provided they comply with EU regulations. 2. You agree that the old CAP destroyed the environment. Your faith in the new CAP is not shared by a whole host of environmental groups. We will see where we are in 2027. The UK Agriculture Act is phased in over 8 years and the government is already "rowing back" on policy which I would suggest is because there is a war and world food prices are inflating and food shortages are inevitable. I always thought 8 years was optimistic as it took New Zealand over a decade to restructure their agriculture. There are many commercial activities that take many years to change like agriculture and steel making. It took c.15 years to plan, build, work up, desnag, and achieve full output the Redcar steel works. It took 2 weeks for Soubrey the then industry minister to shut it rather than keep it working when the Thai owners SSI walked away. When will you accept the EU never gave us any money? Throughout our membership they took vast amounts of money from the UK and handed it to other countries. Despite Thatcher negotiating a large rebate the UK was still the second largest net contributer to the EU, after Germany, and 5th largest contributer in terms of net contribution per head. That was despite the UK being a long way down the list in terms of wealth per head. The UK receipts from the EU were the 5th lowest in terms of per head receipt. All so we enjoyed a massive £60 billion pa trade deficit with the EU pre pandemic. Other countries that were net contributers to the EU budget like The Netherlands (the highest contributer per head) enjoyed large positive trade balances with the rest of the EU.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2022 14:24:57 GMT
I fully agree with your last paragraph. I am totally opposed to any rules that " can never be taken away". .I am also totally opposed to a court of judges almost entirely composed of judges from other countries that sits in judgement on the UK, whose objective is to see European law is enforced and not what is natural justice or in the UK's best interests, or in the interests of the environment, eg forcing the UK government to increase VAT on renewable energy when we were an EU member. www.ask-renewables.co.uk/vat-rise-for-solar-panels-why-who-will-it-affect/So you are aware, Judges in this country are not here to make decisions based on “natural justice” or that are “in the UK’s best interests”. They just interpret the law. Less than 1% of 1% of cases got to the Supreme Court, let alone the ECJ, the next level of appeal (only if it relates to EU law). So there are a minute number of decisions made by ECJ judges that have any impact on us, and the vast majority of those are against big businesses for the benefit of consumers or workers, so are in fact really good for us. You just don’t like anything foreign having a say over us but then contradict yourself if you think we should still be part of the UN security council, or a member of NATO, or conducting trade under WTO rules. We don’t singularly set those rules. I agree with what you say about the law/judges. Just because there are few cases doesn't make it right/just. That's like saying stealing a small amount is OK. Comparing the EU with UN, NATO, & WTO is nonsense. The EU Commission draft new laws, the Council and Parliament pass them. To show how undemocratic the EU is they expected the UK to comply with future EU laws to agree a FTA. I believe laws should be made by people the UK people elect and not by another power.
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 25, 2022 14:58:57 GMT
So you are aware, Judges in this country are not here to make decisions based on “natural justice” or that are “in the UK’s best interests”. They just interpret the law. Less than 1% of 1% of cases got to the Supreme Court, let alone the ECJ, the next level of appeal (only if it relates to EU law). So there are a minute number of decisions made by ECJ judges that have any impact on us, and the vast majority of those are against big businesses for the benefit of consumers or workers, so are in fact really good for us. You just don’t like anything foreign having a say over us but then contradict yourself if you think we should still be part of the UN security council, or a member of NATO, or conducting trade under WTO rules. We don’t singularly set those rules. I agree with what you say about the law/judges. Just because there are few cases doesn't make it right/just. That's like saying stealing a small amount is OK. Comparing the EU with UN, NATO, & WTO is nonsense. The EU Commission draft new laws, the Council and Parliament pass them. To show how undemocratic the EU is they expected the UK to comply with future EU laws to agree a FTA. I believe laws should be made by people the UK people elect and not by another power. And as I have demonstrated time and again, we have over 50% of our law makers unelected. The EU it is about 3%. When it comes to sovereignty, if you are a member of Nato you are not sovereign because you must send troops if anyone invades a fellow nato country. You don’t get a say. What constitutes invade? Nato decide, i.e., a group of foreign leaders we haven’t elected could force us to send troops somewhere. We don’t get to make the rules. We don’t get to decide. We get a say, albeit a much smaller say since we lost our standing in the world after brexit, but only a small say. So being a member of ANYTHING global cedes sovereignty. That’s the reality of a globalised world. In the same way as we left the EU, we could leave all other international organisations and agreements (and be like North Korea). And then we come back to the blind leave vote. Because if sovereignty is part of brexit, brexiteers are total hypocrites if they wanted to leave the EU for sovereignty reasons but remain part of Nato and all the other international groups and treaties we are signed up to.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 25, 2022 15:57:23 GMT
Interesting to see what Sunak does re Brexit, NI and the EU.
I'm hoping for a more grown-up, pragmatic and conciliatory approach than we've had so far, but the right of the party might not let him.
Funny how Europe always causes the Tories problems. They can't seem to get over the fact that the empire went decades ago and that there are other, bigger boys in town these days who you just can't ignore in the hope that doing so will make everything ok.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 25, 2022 20:18:44 GMT
1. Isn't this EU Countries exercising there Sovereignty to do things when they feel appropriate 2. If Old CAP is destroying the Planet why are UK continuing this system for next 3 years under ELM scheme when it promised this would be one of the biggest Brexit Bonuses? Every single Environmental group is up in Arms about this UK U-Turn and is promising Direct Action. Will you be joining it? You can't do anything without Money and the ELM budget is £2.4B under New CAP it would have been £3.5B The Environmental portion of the ELM budget has been slashed from £800M to a ridiculous £50M " Instead, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) sources disclosed, they are considering paying landowners a yearly set sum for each acre of land they own, which would be similar to the much-maligned EU basic payments scheme of the common agricultural policy".www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/24/brexit-bonus-farmers-poised-to-scrapMeanwhile the New EU CAP which will be for 7 years and will be properly funded.Each Sovereign Country devised is own plan within the parameters of an emphasis on small to medium farmers with 40% of Budget devoted to Climate Action agriculture.ec.europa.eu/common-agricultural-policy/cap-overview/new-cap-2023-27/key-reforms-new-cap_enPlease don't say it's because our Government is useless and can't be trusted to keep its promises, we all know that. Therefore we would have been better off within EU and have a properly funded Budget that protects the Environment 1. Yes, individual countries are allowed to exercise their own rules provided they comply with EU regulations. You don't seem to understand how these things work. You imply there are a bunch of Civil Servants who independently dream up policy when it couldn't be further from the truth The Agriculture Ministers from each Sovereign State make input to the parameters, shape, budget and implementation of CAP and then the Bureaucrats draft the legal Boilerplate (not rolled steel plates)
2. You agree that the old CAP destroyed the environment. Of course I don't, but anything can be improved and New CAP vastly improves the position of small farmers and the Environment As per, UK Government ELMs initially promised much but ultimately only delivered the Status Quo which you are highly critical of
Your faith in the new CAP is not shared by a whole host of environmental groups. We will see where we are in 2027. When it comes to protecting the environment more can always be done and New CAP is a serious attempt It is no excuse for UK doing absolutely nothing
Nobody even Farmers or Environmentalist know what's happening which caused them to the streets about a week ago. The Silent DEFRA and the equally silent Agriculture Minister Mark & Spencer are saying nothing with CAP ending in December
landworkersalliance.org.uk/lwa-and-allies-march-in-london-for-goodfood-and-farming/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=lwa-and-allies-march-in-london-for-goodfood-and-farming
The UK Agriculture Act is phased in over 8 years and the government is already "rowing back" on policy which I would suggest is because there is a war and world food prices are inflating and food shortages are inevitable. I always thought 8 years was optimistic as it took New Zealand over a decade to restructure their agriculture. The UK aren't "rowing back" they've completely abandoned any pretence that they are trying to protect the Environment There are many commercial activities that take many years to change like agriculture and steel making. It took c.15 years to plan, build, work up, desnag, and achieve full output the Redcar steel works. It took 2 weeks for Soubrey the then industry minister to shut it rather than keep it working when the Thai owners SSI walked away. Your perennial answer is always Jam Tomorrow or go off in a tangent about SteelWhen will you accept the EU never gave us any money? Throughout our membership they took vast amounts of money from the UK and handed it to other countries. Despite Thatcher negotiating a large rebate the UK was still the second largest net contributer to the EU, after Germany, and 5th largest contributer in terms of net contribution per head. That was despite the UK being a long way down the list in terms of wealth per head. The UK receipts from the EU were the 5th lowest in terms of per head receipt. All so we enjoyed a massive £60 billion pa trade deficit with the EU pre pandemic. Other countries that were net contributers to the EU budget like The Netherlands (the highest contributer per head) enjoyed large positive trade balances with the rest of the EU. When will you accept that UK joined the EU on its arse as "The Sick Man of Europe" Net Contributions is a very silly measure to use in isolation without including the Non Tarrif Costs which are now very apparent, the increase in Civil Service Costs at DEFRA and Foreign Office etc
The Markets and Country are anxiously awaiting the OBR Report on next Fiscal Event due on 31st October 🎃
This is the same OBR who forecast a PERMANENT hit of 4% to UK GDP as a result of Brexit
obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20our%20latest%20economy%20forecast,to%20remaining%20in%20the%20EU.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 25, 2022 22:49:31 GMT
Fuck Brexit
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2022 23:11:02 GMT
1. Yes, individual countries are allowed to exercise their own rules provided they comply with EU regulations. You don't seem to understand how these things work. You imply there are a bunch of Civil Servants who independently dream up policy when it couldn't be further from the truth The Agriculture Ministers from each Sovereign State make input to the parameters, shape, budget and implementation of CAP and then the Bureaucrats draft the legal Boilerplate (not rolled steel plates)
2. You agree that the old CAP destroyed the environment. Of course I don't, but anything can be improved and New CAP vastly improves the position of small farmers and the Environment As per, UK Government ELMs initially promised much but ultimately only delivered the Status Quo which you are highly critical of
Your faith in the new CAP is not shared by a whole host of environmental groups. We will see where we are in 2027. When it comes to protecting the environment more can always be done and New CAP is a serious attempt It is no excuse for UK doing absolutely nothing
Nobody even Farmers or Environmentalist know what's happening which caused them to the streets about a week ago. The Silent DEFRA and the equally silent Agriculture Minister Mark & Spencer are saying nothing with CAP ending in December
landworkersalliance.org.uk/lwa-and-allies-march-in-london-for-goodfood-and-farming/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=lwa-and-allies-march-in-london-for-goodfood-and-farming
The UK Agriculture Act is phased in over 8 years and the government is already "rowing back" on policy which I would suggest is because there is a war and world food prices are inflating and food shortages are inevitable. I always thought 8 years was optimistic as it took New Zealand over a decade to restructure their agriculture. The UK aren't "rowing back" they've completely abandoned any pretence that they are trying to protect the Environment There are many commercial activities that take many years to change like agriculture and steel making. It took c.15 years to plan, build, work up, desnag, and achieve full output the Redcar steel works. It took 2 weeks for Soubrey the then industry minister to shut it rather than keep it working when the Thai owners SSI walked away. Your perennial answer is always Jam Tomorrow or go off in a tangent about SteelWhen will you accept the EU never gave us any money? Throughout our membership they took vast amounts of money from the UK and handed it to other countries. Despite Thatcher negotiating a large rebate the UK was still the second largest net contributer to the EU, after Germany, and 5th largest contributer in terms of net contribution per head. That was despite the UK being a long way down the list in terms of wealth per head. The UK receipts from the EU were the 5th lowest in terms of per head receipt. All so we enjoyed a massive £60 billion pa trade deficit with the EU pre pandemic. Other countries that were net contributers to the EU budget like The Netherlands (the highest contributer per head) enjoyed large positive trade balances with the rest of the EU. When will you accept that UK joined the EU on its arse as "The Sick Man of Europe" Net Contributions is a very silly measure to use in isolation without including the Non Tarrif Costs which are now very apparent, the increase in Civil Service Costs at DEFRA and Foreign Office etc
The Markets and Country are anxiously awaiting the OBR Report on next Fiscal Event due on 31st October 🎃
This is the same OBR who forecast a PERMANENT hit of 4% to UK GDP as a result of Brexit
obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20our%20latest%20economy%20forecast,to%20remaining%20in%20the%20EU.
We appear to go around in circles repeating the same old things. I posted my comments on the EU CAP success on page 1,497 on 6th September and see no point in repeating or copy and pasting. The EU CAP has been a disaster in a lot of respects, other than there is a lot of food produced and very rich large farmers. There is universal consensus of opinion that the new CAP is a sell out and referred to as "green washing". If you think the EU officials simply process each sovereign states plans I suggest you read this: agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans/observation-letters_enYou are wrong to think the new CAP " vastly improves" environmental controls: www.climatechangenews.com/2021/11/23/eus-reformed-agricultural-policy-fails-climate-goals-say-green-groups/Are either of us surprised that the present government are doing a U turn on anything? The reality that seems to have escaped most people that we are still suffering the impacts of the pandemic, the four largest economies in the world are stalling, there is a war raging that is pushing energy and food prices through the roof and causing shortages. (Before someone jumps in a says the gas price is plummeting, that's because Europe's gas storage has reached maximum and buying has slowed down almost to a stop. We all know what will happen when demand increases in winter.) By the way, you are aware that the EU have also delayed their new environmental rules due to the war are you? ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/eu-commission-delays-new-cap-environmental-rules-to-boost-eu-g.htmlYes, it is "jam tomorrow" because it will take time to adjust to life outside the EU, but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving. The GDP may not have yet reached pre pandemic levels but that is because the drop in UK GDP during the pandemic was higher than the others, and recently found to have been higher than previously thought. www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-economy-shrank-record-11-2020-worst-since-1709-2022-08-22/Maybe you blame Brexit for what happened in 2020? I am perfectly aware that the UK joined the EEC as the "sick man of Europe". I was in favour and voted to stay in in the first referendum. The UK initially did well out of being a member of the EEC. I accepted that the UK should pay to be a member. But during the 90s my view started to change. I realised the UK was being ripped off as factories moved production out of the country and the European states protected their manufacturing by purchasing policies, flagrantly breaking EU regulations, and setting up cartels. There was an endless steam of legislation on all manner of topics. which many European countries ignored, and I questioned the democracy of it all. Maastricht was the final straw. Since Maastricht look at what happened to the UK -EU goods trade balance: www.statista.com/statistics/284750/united-kingdom-uk-total-eu-trade-in-goods-by-trade-value/#:~:text=In%20January%202021%2C%20the%20value,in%20the%20provided%20time%20period. As fast as the UK was earning trade from the rest of the world we were propping up the EU economies. I am confident the OBR will be proved wrong. Nothing is permanent. The OBR predicted the adverse effect of Brexit in 2016 and is sticking to its prediction. It has not produced any conclusive evidence as all economic activity is totally distorted by the pandemic and the war. They say there is no reason to change their original view. And in any event if there was economic damage from Brexit, that would be the price of freedom from European Union rule. I am confident that Brexit will be of economic benefit as well as a benefits in terms of sovereignty, democracy, and treating all immigrants equally whether they are from Europe, Africa, Asia, or the Americas.
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Post by gawa on Oct 26, 2022 0:05:29 GMT
Yes, it is "jam tomorrow" because it will take time to adjust to life outside the EU, but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving. The GDP may not have yet reached pre pandemic levels but that is because the drop in UK GDP during the pandemic was higher than the others, and recently found to have been higher than previously thought. www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-economy-shrank-record-11-2020-worst-since-1709-2022-08-22/Maybe you blame Brexit for what happened in 2020? Where is your source for this MrCoke? From what I can see we've had average growth out of the G7 since the pandemic and are predicted to have the worst growth in 2023 - www.ft.com/content/4ac7e454-5a0c-4094-90af-fb54404d45a0And our growth pre-pandemic wasn't the highest either and very much average too: So what is your source? And do you agree with the IMF predicting we will have the slowest growth in G7 next year? Or just like the OBR, are you confident that you're also right against the IMF and they will also be proven wrong?
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Post by wannabee on Oct 26, 2022 1:47:10 GMT
We appear to go around in circles repeating the same old things. I posted my comments on the EU CAP success on page 1,497 on 6th September and see no point in repeating or copy and pasting. The EU CAP has been a disaster in a lot of respects, other than there is a lot of food produced and very rich large farmers. There is universal consensus of opinion that the new CAP is a sell out and referred to as "green washing". If you think the EU officials simply process each sovereign states plans I suggest you read this: agriculture.ec.europa.eu/cap-my-country/cap-strategic-plans/observation-letters_enYou are wrong to think the new CAP " vastly improves" environmental controls: www.climatechangenews.com/2021/11/23/eus-reformed-agricultural-policy-fails-climate-goals-say-green-groups/Are either of us surprised that the present government are doing a U turn on anything? The reality that seems to have escaped most people that we are still suffering the impacts of the pandemic, the four largest economies in the world are stalling, there is a war raging that is pushing energy and food prices through the roof and causing shortages. (Before someone jumps in a says the gas price is plummeting, that's because Europe's gas storage has reached maximum and buying has slowed down almost to a stop. We all know what will happen when demand increases in winter.) By the way, you are aware that the EU have also delayed their new environmental rules due to the war are you? ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/eu-commission-delays-new-cap-environmental-rules-to-boost-eu-g.htmlYes, it is "jam tomorrow" because it will take time to adjust to life outside the EU, but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving. The GDP may not have yet reached pre pandemic levels but that is because the drop in UK GDP during the pandemic was higher than the others, and recently found to have been higher than previously thought. www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-economy-shrank-record-11-2020-worst-since-1709-2022-08-22/Maybe you blame Brexit for what happened in 2020? I am perfectly aware that the UK joined the EEC as the "sick man of Europe". I was in favour and voted to stay in in the first referendum. The UK initially did well out of being a member of the EEC. I accepted that the UK should pay to be a member. But during the 90s my view started to change. I realised the UK was being ripped off as factories moved production out of the country and the European states protected their manufacturing by purchasing policies, flagrantly breaking EU regulations, and setting up cartels. There was an endless steam of legislation on all manner of topics. which many European countries ignored, and I questioned the democracy of it all. Maastricht was the final straw. Since Maastricht look at what happened to the UK -EU goods trade balance: www.statista.com/statistics/284750/united-kingdom-uk-total-eu-trade-in-goods-by-trade-value/#:~:text=In%20January%202021%2C%20the%20value,in%20the%20provided%20time%20period. As fast as the UK was earning trade from the rest of the world we were propping up the EU economies. I am confident the OBR will be proved wrong. Nothing is permanent. The OBR predicted the adverse effect of Brexit in 2016 and is sticking to its prediction. It has not produced any conclusive evidence as all economic activity is totally distorted by the pandemic and the war. They say there is no reason to change their original view. And in any event if there was economic damage from Brexit, that would be the price of freedom from European Union rule. I am confident that Brexit will be of economic benefit as well as a benefits in terms of sovereignty, democracy, and treating all immigrants equally whether they are from Europe, Africa, Asia, or the Americas. We do indeed go round in circles because you keep repeating the same old baloney you know to be untrue, if your happy with the outcome of Brexit why continue to post nonsense You know quite well for a period UK was fastest growing in G7 because it sunk deeper than everyone else. In the next sentence you acknowledge that UK is the only G7 Country not yet to get back to pre Pandemic GDP levels. Do you not understand how stupid your defense sounds? How does this square with the boast that UK was quickest out of Lockdown? The catastrophic appointment of Liz and her cohort Karzi and their budget merely exposed the fragility of the UK Economy The UK has been running up a Current Account Deficit since it left the EU simply because it is buying more than it is selling. Yes Energy is a factor but it is everywhere. The simple fact is that Brexit has stifled Trade and Shrunk the Economy Even after a steading in the Market after Liz exited Stage Left UK Gilts are only slightly lower than Italy and hundreds of basis points above Germany and France and all other G7 Countries This is a realistic measure of how the Markets view the UK Economy
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 26, 2022 8:47:20 GMT
Yes, it is "jam tomorrow" because it will take time to adjust to life outside the EU, but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving. The GDP may not have yet reached pre pandemic levels but that is because the drop in UK GDP during the pandemic was higher than the others, and recently found to have been higher than previously thought. www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-economy-shrank-record-11-2020-worst-since-1709-2022-08-22/Maybe you blame Brexit for what happened in 2020? Where is your source for this MrCoke? From what I can see we've had average growth out of the G7 since the pandemic and are predicted to have the worst growth in 2023 - www.ft.com/content/4ac7e454-5a0c-4094-90af-fb54404d45a0And our growth pre-pandemic wasn't the highest either and very much average too: So what is your source? And do you agree with the IMF predicting we will have the slowest growth in G7 next year? Or just like the OBR, are you confident that you're also right against the IMF and they will also be proven wrong? Here is one quote for you: "UK fastest growing G7 member in 2021" www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/11/uk-gdp-december-2021-omicron-recovery-stock-markets-ftse-inflation-fed-business-liveOf course The Guardian could be lying, but they say their source is the ONS. Time will tell what 2022 and 2023 will bring. Yes, the IMF are usually wrong when it comes to predicting the UK's economy. In April 2020 the IMF predicted the UK economy would grow by just 4% in 2021, less than all the G7 except Canada; they got that completely wrong didn't they? www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2020/04/14/weo-april-2020Your graph show the UK performance while still in the EU. It wasn't very good was it? Shows how much benefit there was being a member of the EU. Let's be like Canada! We left the EU in 2020 and the transition period ended at the end of 2020. I promise you the UK economy will perform much better outside the EU in the future. Have faith in your country. It's British commerce and industry that creates the wealth of this country. It doesn't really matter who is in #10.
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Post by gawa on Oct 26, 2022 8:59:28 GMT
Where is your source for this MrCoke? From what I can see we've had average growth out of the G7 since the pandemic and are predicted to have the worst growth in 2023 - www.ft.com/content/4ac7e454-5a0c-4094-90af-fb54404d45a0And our growth pre-pandemic wasn't the highest either and very much average too: So what is your source? And do you agree with the IMF predicting we will have the slowest growth in G7 next year? Or just like the OBR, are you confident that you're also right against the IMF and they will also be proven wrong? Here is one quote for you: "UK fastest growing G7 member in 2021" www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/11/uk-gdp-december-2021-omicron-recovery-stock-markets-ftse-inflation-fed-business-liveOf course The Guardian could be lying, but they say their source is the ONS. Time will tell what 2022 and 2023 will bring. Yes, the IMF are usually wrong when it comes to predicting the UK's economy. In April 2020 the IMF predicted the UK economy would grow by just 4% in 2021, less than all the G7 except Canada; they got that completely wrong didn't they? www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2020/04/14/weo-april-2020Your graph show the UK performance while still in the EU. It wasn't very good was it? Shows how much benefit there was being a member of the EU. Let's be like Canada! We left the EU in 2020 and the transition period ended at the end of 2020. I promise you the UK economy will perform much better outside the EU in the future. Have faith in your country. It's British commerce and industry that creates the wealth of this country. It doesn't really matter who is in #10. But you said in the post I quoted that "but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving." The quote which you are now providing says "uk fasting growing G7 member in 2021" So would I be right in saying that your original statement is incorrect and that you have no source for it? Are you willing to retract that now and stand corrected? The graph shows we had the second best growth by the end of 2016, much better than the average growth since brexit and much better than the predicted growth next year.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 26, 2022 9:45:25 GMT
Here is one quote for you: "UK fastest growing G7 member in 2021" www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/11/uk-gdp-december-2021-omicron-recovery-stock-markets-ftse-inflation-fed-business-liveOf course The Guardian could be lying, but they say their source is the ONS. Time will tell what 2022 and 2023 will bring. Yes, the IMF are usually wrong when it comes to predicting the UK's economy. In April 2020 the IMF predicted the UK economy would grow by just 4% in 2021, less than all the G7 except Canada; they got that completely wrong didn't they? www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2020/04/14/weo-april-2020Your graph show the UK performance while still in the EU. It wasn't very good was it? Shows how much benefit there was being a member of the EU. Let's be like Canada! We left the EU in 2020 and the transition period ended at the end of 2020. I promise you the UK economy will perform much better outside the EU in the future. Have faith in your country. It's British commerce and industry that creates the wealth of this country. It doesn't really matter who is in #10. But you said in the post I quoted that "but so far in terms of GDP the UK has grown faster than the EU G7 countries since leaving." The quote which you are now providing says "uk fasting growing G7 member in 2021" So would I be right in saying that your original statement is incorrect and that you have no source for it? Are you willing to retract that now and stand corrected? The graph shows we had the second best growth by the end of 2016, much better than the average growth since brexit and much better than the predicted growth next year. My apologies I should have said "fastest growing in 2021" not "since leaving". I must be more careful. I try to avoid judgements based on recent official stats. Government figures for recent months are invariably incorrect as they include lots of assumptions and best estimates. It is only recently the government corrected the drop on GDP in 2020. They also corrected the GDP figures for Q2 this year. In a couple of weeks we will get the Q3 figures, which the media will size on. But a few weeks later the government issue amended quarterly figures when the last month of the quarter are more accurately determined, which the media generally ignore as old news. The ONS can amend figures for a year earlier. As for predictions, they all have one thing in common, they are invariably wrong! There is one prediction that the UK will be the fastest growing G7 economy in 2022, but I would ignore it, can't possibly be true.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2022 0:02:17 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 29, 2022 15:58:53 GMT
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Post by toppercorner on Nov 1, 2022 14:45:20 GMT
the calls for rejoining either/both the EU, and the single market are getting more frequent, now we can all see what an utter shambles Brexit really is.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 1, 2022 15:00:33 GMT
the calls for rejoining either/both the EU, and the single market are getting more frequent, now we can all see what an utter shambles Brexit really is. Sadly, this is likely to take years, if it happens at all, simply due to fixated ideologies and the refusal to recognise having made a mistake, as is evidenced regularly on here often enough. I just can't see any Tory party ever agreeing to this as it'd tear itself apart.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 1, 2022 19:59:53 GMT
the calls for rejoining either/both the EU, and the single market are getting more frequent, now we can all see what an utter shambles Brexit really is. I assume that is the same German owned Siemens that built a new office block in Manchester, made it the UK head office, and are now looking to sell it. As for exporting food to the the EU, that was always going to be difficult due to the barriers the EU puts up to food imports to protect EU farmers, subsidised by €billions of tax payers money, inflating EU food prices. Fortunately the penny is starting to drop with some. The Food & Drink Federation have been opposed to leaving the EU but are now starting to reap the benefits of Brexit: www.fdf.org.uk/fdf/news-media/news/2022-news/uk-food-and-drink-exports-pass-pre-pandemic-levels/#:~:text=Exports%20to%20both%20EU%20and,and%20Drink%20Federation%20(FDF). The report says " pre-pandemic", I would have preferred pre Brexit, but I suspect that would be too embarrassing for them. This is just a start. There is a big world out there. The EU may be the world's largest free trade zone, at the moment, but it is just 20% of the world trade. The other 80% is growing much faster the the EU's 20%. When the UK has its own new trade deals set up, UK exports will be booming, as described in the above link for food. (" Jam tomorrow" to save someone saying it.) Food is just a minor export. The UK is a major world financial services centre, and rapidly growing other service industries. We are still in the top 10 world nations for manufacturing*, but the future us not going to be trying to compete with Germany and other European countries in the European market. Nor is the future making the same old products from past centuries, we need to be at the forefront of new technologies keeping ahead of the competition. * globalupside.com/top-10-manufacturing-countries-in-the-world/
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 2, 2022 8:31:45 GMT
the calls for rejoining either/both the EU, and the single market are getting more frequent, now we can all see what an utter shambles Brexit really is. I assume that is the same German owned Siemens that built a new office block in Manchester, made it the UK head office, and are now looking to sell it. As for exporting food to the the EU, that was always going to be difficult due to the barriers the EU puts up to food imports to protect EU farmers, subsidised by €billions of tax payers money, inflating EU food prices. Fortunately the penny is starting to drop with some. The Food & Drink Federation have been opposed to leaving the EU but are now starting to reap the benefits of Brexit: www.fdf.org.uk/fdf/news-media/news/2022-news/uk-food-and-drink-exports-pass-pre-pandemic-levels/#:~:text=Exports%20to%20both%20EU%20and,and%20Drink%20Federation%20(FDF). The report says " pre-pandemic", I would have preferred pre Brexit, but I suspect that would be too embarrassing for them. This is just a start. There is a big world out there. The EU may be the world's largest free trade zone, at the moment, but it is just 20% of the world trade. The other 80% is growing much faster the the EU's 20%. When the UK has its own new trade deals set up, UK exports will be booming, as described in the above link for food. (" Jam tomorrow" to save someone saying it.) Food is just a minor export. The UK is a major world financial services centre, and rapidly growing other service industries. We are still in the top 10 world nations for manufacturing*, but the future us not going to be trying to compete with Germany and other European countries in the European market. Nor is the future making the same old products from past centuries, we need to be at the forefront of new technologies keeping ahead of the competition. * globalupside.com/top-10-manufacturing-countries-in-the-world/I can never understand, Coke, why you seem to think that, while the UK is setting up its trade deals with the rest of the world which is growing faster than the EU, the EU itself will just be sitting idly by, watching the UK setting up its trade deals and doing nothing itself! Isn't the reality that the EU, as the world's largest trading bloc, will be doing precisely what the UK will be doing, but from the position of being the world's largest trading bloc rather than being a solo player, with all the advantages that being the world's largest trading bloc brings? I get your desire to paint a picture of freedom and flexibility proving to be a big gain for the UK, but you have to offset that against the fact that we have massively reduced our status and therefore our ability to strike deals which benefit the UK preferentially, as the new deals have repeatedly shown. We've basically gone from being Sainsburys to Spar.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 2, 2022 10:11:58 GMT
I assume that is the same German owned Siemens that built a new office block in Manchester, made it the UK head office, and are now looking to sell it. As for exporting food to the the EU, that was always going to be difficult due to the barriers the EU puts up to food imports to protect EU farmers, subsidised by €billions of tax payers money, inflating EU food prices. Fortunately the penny is starting to drop with some. The Food & Drink Federation have been opposed to leaving the EU but are now starting to reap the benefits of Brexit: www.fdf.org.uk/fdf/news-media/news/2022-news/uk-food-and-drink-exports-pass-pre-pandemic-levels/#:~:text=Exports%20to%20both%20EU%20and,and%20Drink%20Federation%20(FDF). The report says " pre-pandemic", I would have preferred pre Brexit, but I suspect that would be too embarrassing for them. This is just a start. There is a big world out there. The EU may be the world's largest free trade zone, at the moment, but it is just 20% of the world trade. The other 80% is growing much faster the the EU's 20%. When the UK has its own new trade deals set up, UK exports will be booming, as described in the above link for food. (" Jam tomorrow" to save someone saying it.) Food is just a minor export. The UK is a major world financial services centre, and rapidly growing other service industries. We are still in the top 10 world nations for manufacturing*, but the future us not going to be trying to compete with Germany and other European countries in the European market. Nor is the future making the same old products from past centuries, we need to be at the forefront of new technologies keeping ahead of the competition. * globalupside.com/top-10-manufacturing-countries-in-the-world/I can never understand, Coke, why you seem to think that, while the UK is setting up its trade deals with the rest of the world which is growing faster than the EU, the EU itself will just be sitting idly by, watching the UK setting up its trade deals and doing nothing itself! Isn't the reality that the EU, as the world's largest trading bloc, will be doing precisely what the UK will be doing, but from the position of being the world's largest trading bloc rather than being a solo player, with all the advantages that being the world's largest trading bloc brings? I get your desire to paint a picture of freedom and flexibility proving to be a big gain for the UK, but you have to offset that against the fact that we have massively reduced our status and therefore our ability to strike deals which benefit the UK preferentially, as the new deals have repeatedly shown. We've basically gone from being Sainsburys to Spar. Good point. I'm sure the EU are trying to make new trade deals. Their problem is it is a very slow process involving consultation with 27 countries which each have their own vested interests. Consequently new deals take a very long time, e.g. negotiations started with India in 2007 and ground to a halt in 2013. They restarted last year, no doubt spurred by the EU not wanting to be left behind by the UK. Then their is the issue of ratification of deals. The EU Canada trade deal was agreed a long time ago but not agreed by the EU Parliament till 2017. Today there are still 11 EU countries not ratified the deal, including the largest ones Germany, France and Italy. Canada agreed the deal and so did the UK when in the EU. The deal was rolled over when the UK left the EU and the UK and Canada are currently working on an improved deal for our nations. The new deals the UK makes with countries will be tailored to UK interests as well as the country we agree terms with. This will be a sovereign decision by the UK government. We have an improved deal with Japan, albeit minor changes, and as you are aware are working hard on deals with many countries. I will cover recent events in my next quarterly review. I understand some people want to be in the EU club. If it was purely a trading bloc, I would as well, but it is a customs union with laws passed centrally on almost all aspects of government, and seeking to increase its sphere of control to fiscal policy, foreign policy and defence. No thank you. The UK is perfectly capable of managing its affairs on its own like most of the world's countries. To extend you analogy I don't want to be a Dutch owned company like Spar, not even a British owned Sainsbury's, but I want our country to be the best and have the highest customer satisfaction like Ocado/M&S, or Waitrose. But the real point is that countries are not successful due to government, they are successful because of their people. Whatever trade deals government agree, it is down to industry and commerce to exploit to our nation's benefit.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 2, 2022 14:03:46 GMT
I can never understand, Coke, why you seem to think that, while the UK is setting up its trade deals with the rest of the world which is growing faster than the EU, the EU itself will just be sitting idly by, watching the UK setting up its trade deals and doing nothing itself! Isn't the reality that the EU, as the world's largest trading bloc, will be doing precisely what the UK will be doing, but from the position of being the world's largest trading bloc rather than being a solo player, with all the advantages that being the world's largest trading bloc brings? I get your desire to paint a picture of freedom and flexibility proving to be a big gain for the UK, but you have to offset that against the fact that we have massively reduced our status and therefore our ability to strike deals which benefit the UK preferentially, as the new deals have repeatedly shown. We've basically gone from being Sainsburys to Spar. Good point. I'm sure the EU are trying to make new trade deals. Their problem is it is a very slow process involving consultation with 27 countries which each have their own vested interests. Consequently new deals take a very long time, e.g. negotiations started with India in 2007 and ground to a halt in 2013. They restarted last year, no doubt spurred by the EU not wanting to be left behind by the UK. Then their is the issue of ratification of deals. The EU Canada trade deal was agreed a long time ago but not agreed by the EU Parliament till 2017. Today there are still 11 EU countries not ratified the deal, including the largest ones Germany, France and Italy. Canada agreed the deal and so did the UK when in the EU. The deal was rolled over when the UK left the EU and the UK and Canada are currently working on an improved deal for our nations. The new deals the UK makes with countries will be tailored to UK interests as well as the country we agree terms with. This will be a sovereign decision by the UK government. We have an improved deal with Japan, albeit minor changes, and as you are aware are working hard on deals with many countries. I will cover recent events in my next quarterly review. I understand some people want to be in the EU club. If it was purely a trading bloc, I would as well, but it is a customs union with laws passed centrally on almost all aspects of government, and seeking to increase its sphere of control to fiscal policy, foreign policy and defence. No thank you. The UK is perfectly capable of managing its affairs on its own like most of the world's countries. To extend you analogy I don't want to be a Dutch owned company like Spar, not even a British owned Sainsbury's, but I want our country to be the best and have the highest customer satisfaction like Ocado/M&S, or Waitrose. But the real point is that countries are not successful due to government, they are successful because of their people. Whatever trade deals government agree, it is down to industry and commerce to exploit to our nation's benefit. You'd certainly hope that being a solo operation would speed things up, although, so far, almost all of the deals we've done have been simple roll overs of existing ones, and the few new ones we've made have been heavily criticised for offering far too much to the other country and not doing enough to protect our own industries. In your scheme of things that doesn't seem to matter so much so long as it was ourselves that made them. In fact, that seems to be your be all and end all - that the damage is worth it because it's our own self-inflicted damage. I'd rather not have the damage at all thanks! It may well be that the EU takes longer to negotiate and ratify deals but ultimately if they get better deals than we do, which most people would think likely given their negotiating and overall trading power due to their size, then we'll lose out. Contrary to your oft used response about "doing the country down", I think we all want the UK to be the best and I agree that customer satisfaction is a good benchmark. It'll be interesting to see how the UK fares in future assessments of the happiness of various countries' populations. I see that the latest yougov poll showed a 20 point gap between those who thought the UK was wrong to leave the EU (54%) compared to those who thought it was the right thing to do (34%). This has been growing significantly and consistently from about May last year - probably not coincidental that the impacts of Brexit became more manifest from about that time onwards. I'm not sure that such feelings will contribute to customer satisfaction. You might want to set up a youtube channel to air more widely your quarterly Pravda reviews on Brexit and help people to realise why it's really going so well? whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
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Post by gawa on Nov 4, 2022 0:10:57 GMT
I wonder if the recent influx of Albanian asylum seekers is related to brexit and the Dublin regulation.
Previously we could apply and get asylum seekers sent back to the first EU country they were finger printed in.
Due to this it was always a massive deterrent to a large majority of asylum seekers as if they had already been fingerprinted or had family settled elsewhere in the EU then it wasn't worth the risk to just get sent back.
To put the numbers into perspective. In 2018 only 397 asylum seekers arrived by small boat.
In 2022 so far this number is 38,000. An astronomical increase in 4 years and the year isn't even over yet.
To compare this to Italy. In 2016 they had 180,000 asylum seekers arrive by sea. While in 2021 that number was 59,000.
I would say that given our dramatic in increase of asylum seekers arriving by boat especially in comparison to other nations. The only reasonable explanation is the Dublin regulation no longer applying and acting as a deterrant to stop a large majority of asylum. Seekers chancing it.
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