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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2022 11:30:22 GMT
A reasonable attempt to do a Snow Job. Your post looks authoritive but lacks credibility The ELM scheme was already being watered down under the Johnson administration (as I pointed out to you before) The 3 strands of the scheme were to have equal share of the £2.4B funding (under CAP it was £3.5B) Yet in June the Environmental element was cut from £800M to £50M per year. Bwahahaha Fine Words are OK but without funding nothing can get done www.endsreport.com/article/1789504/utter-disgrace-funding-slashed-elms-rewilding-projects-say-reportsYour reliance on DEFRA reporting honestly I fear is misplaced when has a Government Department ever done so especially under this Tory Regime I prefer to trust BBC and Observer to have fully sourced its reporting The reality is that the Farming Lobby have won over the Environmental Lobby (probably with CAP as well as ELMS What frightened this Government was the by-election loss of the Porn Watchers seat and Food Security focused by events in Ukraine You do know that each Country within EU has its own Agriculture/Environmental Plan Right? Not understanding your Sovereignty again Each Countries Plan fits into the overall EU objective. It's called a spirit of Mutual Cooperation to Achieve Common Goals. Perhaps Liz may see it in action when she attends the Inaugural EU Organised European Political Community Meeting tomorrow in Prague There are 3 items on the Agenda Ukraine, Energy and The Economic Situation. I'm sure she will at least be relieved to be in Prague not Birmingham I could quote literally dozens of Articles criticising ELMS, not the objectives but the implementation "Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind" I think you miss the point. If the Tory government want to make DEFRA an " economic growth department" that is the problem with democracy : you get the government that is elected. Maybe one day we will get a better government. So ELMS is an unsatisfactory start, what do you expect from a Tory government? It is a phased piece on legislation which can be amended as the new government are now doing, albeit in the wrong direction, and future elected governments can change at will, unlike EU legislation. Let's get a better government. So carry on attacking Truss all you like as far as I'm concerned. I washed my hands of active politics in the 1980s after decades of service addressing envelopes, posting leaflets, supporting jumble sales fund raising. The sovereignty issue is that each EU country's plan is regulated by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels who can not approve or pull a nations funding if they don't think they are complying with EU policy. Just as they have stopped the UK's Horizon funding because the UK government hasn't complied with the NI protocol. That's the way the unelected EU Commission operate, ask Poland and Hungary. I'm just glad the UK is not funding " poor countries'" plans now we have left the EU. Have you seen the money Poland is getting? The new CAP is just like the EU pandemic recovery fund, regulated from Brussels. There are moves towards majority voting to continue the process of reducing individual countries sovereignty and there are moves towards fiscal unity with a common Corporation Tax. The Commission is gradually taking more and more power to the centre, as well as being the sole authority to draft legislation for the Council and Parliament to rubber stamp. Personally I would much rather pay for UK civil servants, knowing they are working in the UK's interest on agriculture, trade, etc, and the cost stays/recirculates in this country, than pay a lot more to Eurocrats in Brussels who are working in the interest of an ever closer Union and the cost leaves the UK for Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and Germany EU administration centres, including the cost of MEPs and a mobile parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg. I thank God we got out just in time before the pandemic.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 5, 2022 16:08:28 GMT
A reasonable attempt to do a Snow Job. Your post looks authoritive but lacks credibility The ELM scheme was already being watered down under the Johnson administration (as I pointed out to you before) The 3 strands of the scheme were to have equal share of the £2.4B funding (under CAP it was £3.5B) Yet in June the Environmental element was cut from £800M to £50M per year. Bwahahaha Fine Words are OK but without funding nothing can get done www.endsreport.com/article/1789504/utter-disgrace-funding-slashed-elms-rewilding-projects-say-reportsYour reliance on DEFRA reporting honestly I fear is misplaced when has a Government Department ever done so especially under this Tory Regime I prefer to trust BBC and Observer to have fully sourced its reporting The reality is that the Farming Lobby have won over the Environmental Lobby (probably with CAP as well as ELMS What frightened this Government was the by-election loss of the Porn Watchers seat and Food Security focused by events in Ukraine You do know that each Country within EU has its own Agriculture/Environmental Plan Right? Not understanding your Sovereignty again Each Countries Plan fits into the overall EU objective. It's called a spirit of Mutual Cooperation to Achieve Common Goals. Perhaps Liz may see it in action when she attends the Inaugural EU Organised European Political Community Meeting tomorrow in Prague There are 3 items on the Agenda Ukraine, Energy and The Economic Situation. I'm sure she will at least be relieved to be in Prague not Birmingham I could quote literally dozens of Articles criticising ELMS, not the objectives but the implementation "Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind" I think you miss the point. If the Tory government want to make DEFRA an " economic growth department" that is the problem with democracy : you get the government that is elected. Maybe one day we will get a better government. So ELMS is an unsatisfactory start, what do you expect from a Tory government? It is a phased piece on legislation which can be amended as the new government are now doing, albeit in the wrong direction, and future elected governments can change at will, unlike EU legislation. Let's get a better government. So carry on attacking Truss all you like as far as I'm concerned. I washed my hands of active politics in the 1980s after decades of service addressing envelopes, posting leaflets, supporting jumble sales fund raising. The sovereignty issue is that each EU country's plan is regulated by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels who can not approve or pull a nations funding if they don't think they are complying with EU policy. Just as they have stopped the UK's Horizon funding because the UK government hasn't complied with the NI protocol. That's the way the unelected EU Commission operate, ask Poland and Hungary. I'm just glad the UK is not funding " poor countries'" plans now we have left the EU. Have you seen the money Poland is getting? The new CAP is just like the EU pandemic recovery fund, regulated from Brussels. There are moves towards majority voting to continue the process of reducing individual countries sovereignty and there are moves towards fiscal unity with a common Corporation Tax. The Commission is gradually taking more and more power to the centre, as well as being the sole authority to draft legislation for the Council and Parliament to rubber stamp. Personally I would much rather pay for UK civil servants, knowing they are working in the UK's interest on agriculture, trade, etc, and the cost stays/recirculates in this country, than pay a lot more to Eurocrats in Brussels who are working in the interest of an ever closer Union and the cost leaves the UK for Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and Germany EU administration centres, including the cost of MEPs and a mobile parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg. I thank God we got out just in time before the pandemic. You are now like many Brexiteers suffering from Buyers Remorse and blaming the implementation of Brexit rather than Brexit itself Red has touched on this phenomenon in several of his Posts You cannot divorce Brexit from the Tory Party that brought us this disaster. Whether you voted Tory or not you Cheerleaded "Getting Brexit Done" by the Tory Party You said: "Just as they have stopped the UK's Horizon funding because the UK government hasn't complied with the NI protocol" This is of course a lieYou cannot stop what you never had in the first place. During the TCA negotiations EU indicated that UK could in principle join the Horizon project as an Associate Member details to be agreed later. Negotiations on this stalled and EU placed a 29th June 2022 deadline on UK to fully implement the NIP an International Agreement freely signed by two Sovereign Entities. In good faith and in anticipation of a positive outcome EU continued to approve grants "in principle" to UK Research Institutions When the deadline passed and of course there was no funding forthcoming from UK the EU lost patience and altered the Grant conditions that the research needed to be undertaken at an EU Institution. Some have already moved from UK and others are in the process of doing so. By the way how is the UK alternative to Horizon getting on Plan B wasn't it? We discussed it before and you contended (naturally) it would be much better than Horizon Not started yet as I understand, oh dear. Old George Freeman the previous Science Minister resigned in July as he couldn't stomach Johnson anymore The position has been vacant for the last three months and yesterday Nusrat Ghani MP (no I've never heard of her either) has been appointed the 10th Science Minister since 2010 Just reverting back to ELM for a moment it's no wonder DEFRA has performed a U-Turn. It has had to substantially increase its workforce to do functions previously undertaken by EU. The amount received under CAP was £3.5B this has been reduced by more than 30% to £2.4B under ELM. If you're suggesting that with a 30% cut and additional staff costs that DEFRA can do more and better then I may know of a Bridge you might be interested in purchasing I won't bother addressing all the other horrors you are predicting MAY fall upon EU. For the time being ill put them down to "Project Fear"
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 5, 2022 16:35:18 GMT
Who are these people 'fighting against it?' Outside of Scotland (where its a part of a wider independence agenda) there is no remain or rejoin movement. So stop blaming other people. It's done - just badly. We have a leave government with an 80 seat majority and an opposition that daren't mention Brexit. It's completely on the govt/leavers to deliver. But it's got to deliver for everyone and it patently isn't - so what do you want fishermen, musicians, hauliers, the Northern Irish, exporters and the rest to do? - just shut up and put up. Not point out flaws and inconsistencies? Stay silent while damage is being done to economic sectors? They're worse off than they were pre- referendum and their livlihoods are going down the pan now - they're not interested in some sunlit uplands 20 years in the future when the world will be a different place anyway. Oh - and you're not highlighting anything that remainers said would take years to achieve because something that is worse than what we already had is NOT an achievement. There is a rejoin movement seeking to undermine the will of the British people: www.europeanmovement.co.uk/new_chair_of_european_movementLiz Truss is doing a great job delivering. Someone who was against Brexit has achieved a lot in a few years. The economy is booming. I'll agree with you when the £ value and stock market decline. There were always going to be some losers from Brexit, especially with EU import rules. But there is a far bigger, faster growing world market to exploit. If there is any immediate lost GDP (all figures quoted are speculation not fact) as a result in Brexit, it will be more than recovered in 5 years. So Mr Coke how are Liz Truss, the value of sterling and stock markets doing?
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Post by wannabee on Oct 5, 2022 16:51:48 GMT
There is a rejoin movement seeking to undermine the will of the British people: www.europeanmovement.co.uk/new_chair_of_european_movementLiz Truss is doing a great job delivering. Someone who was against Brexit has achieved a lot in a few years. The economy is booming. I'll agree with you when the £ value and stock market decline. There were always going to be some losers from Brexit, especially with EU import rules. But there is a far bigger, faster growing world market to exploit. If there is any immediate lost GDP (all figures quoted are speculation not fact) as a result in Brexit, it will be more than recovered in 5 years. So Mr Coke how are Liz Truss, the value of sterling and stock markets doing? Thank you Mr Fog for sharing this gem from Page 828 Para 3 Quite a volte-face from Mr Coke
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2022 17:35:57 GMT
There is a rejoin movement seeking to undermine the will of the British people: www.europeanmovement.co.uk/new_chair_of_european_movementLiz Truss is doing a great job delivering. Someone who was against Brexit has achieved a lot in a few years. The economy is booming. I'll agree with you when the £ value and stock market decline. There were always going to be some losers from Brexit, especially with EU import rules. But there is a far bigger, faster growing world market to exploit. If there is any immediate lost GDP (all figures quoted are speculation not fact) as a result in Brexit, it will be more than recovered in 5 years. So Mr Coke how are Liz Truss, the value of sterling and stock markets doing? I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 5, 2022 18:27:12 GMT
Im afraid these people you purport to have said UK wouldn’t be able to roll over Trade Deals which EU had concluded when UK were in EU are about as Mythical as the Anti-Growth Coalition in Liz Truss’s head. Why on Earth wouldn't Countries roll over these, when the alternative would be WTO which would have benefited no one.
You've always maintained you don't believe in forecasts so I'm not sure why your predicting where UK GDP will be in 5 years time
Your selective use of statistics, I loath to say Porkies again as I'm sure you'll address your previous ones at some point. I presume you are aware The Pandemic and Ukraine War effected other Countries yet UK is only Country in G7 not yet to get back to pre Pandemic GDP Somewhat Incongruous when Johnson told us ad nauseum that UK was first out of Pandemic. Could some other event be deflating UK GDP I wonder 🤭
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2022 18:48:28 GMT
Im afraid these people you purport to have said UK wouldn’t be able to roll over Trade Deals which EU had concluded when UK were in EU are about as Mythical as the Anti-Growth Coalition in Liz Truss’s head. Why on Earth wouldn't Countries roll over these, when the alternative would be WTO which would have benefited no one. You've always maintained you don't believe in forecasts so I'm not sure why your predicting where UK GDP will be in 5 years time Your selective use of statistics, I loath to say Porkies again as I'm sure you'll address your previous ones at some point. I presume you are aware The Pandemic and Ukraine War effected other Countries yet UK is only Country in G7 not yet to get back to pre Pandemic GDP Somewhat Incongruous when Johnson told us ad nauseum that UK was first out of Pandemic. Could some other event be deflating UK GDP I wonder 🤭 Well it just took me 2 minutes to find one article saying " we cannot do it" so its not a myth. www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/04/uk-trade-deals-after-brexit-theresa-may-euThere was a concerted campaign by anti Brexit people saying trade deals could not be done, or would be worse, or would take many years.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 5, 2022 19:02:03 GMT
So Mr Coke how are Liz Truss, the value of sterling and stock markets doing? I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated. It's not just the war and the energy price inflation though is it? As you have correctly pointed out previously the EU is in a very poor situation due to its previous reliance on Russian gas. With its biggest economy facing energy rationing this winter. the Euro should be on its knees against Sterling, but it is in fact about where it was, despite the Bank of England's recent interventions. Being the first out of lockdown and having the freedoms and opportunities promised by Brexiteers the UK should surely be forging ahead by now, but no. And the response of the government is expected to be to put into practice all those things they said would not happen under Brexit - the deregulatory dropping of standards across the board, together with the prospect of relaxing controls on immigration, the biggest issue for so many Brexit supporters (not yourself), so soon after their implementation. I will say again that the pandemic and war have of course been the biggest impactors on the economy, but Brexit has done nothing to improve the UK's ability to weather those storms, despite the governing Party being the one which was elected on the back of Brexit promises.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 5, 2022 19:24:28 GMT
Im afraid these people you purport to have said UK wouldn’t be able to roll over Trade Deals which EU had concluded when UK were in EU are about as Mythical as the Anti-Growth Coalition in Liz Truss’s head. Why on Earth wouldn't Countries roll over these, when the alternative would be WTO which would have benefited no one. You've always maintained you don't believe in forecasts so I'm not sure why your predicting where UK GDP will be in 5 years time Your selective use of statistics, I loath to say Porkies again as I'm sure you'll address your previous ones at some point. I presume you are aware The Pandemic and Ukraine War effected other Countries yet UK is only Country in G7 not yet to get back to pre Pandemic GDP Somewhat Incongruous when Johnson told us ad nauseum that UK was first out of Pandemic. Could some other event be deflating UK GDP I wonder 🤭 Well it just took me 2 minutes to find one article saying " we cannot do it" so its not a myth. www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/04/uk-trade-deals-after-brexit-theresa-may-euThere was a concerted campaign by anti Brexit people saying trade deals could not be done, or would be worse, or would take many years. You're either deliberately or disingenuously misrepresenting the Article And the headline doesn't say "we cannot do it" it says "UK' doesn't have the capacity to strike new trade deals after Brexit" an entirely different thing The Article clearly goes on to say that "Senior Government Sources " say UK doesn't have the Bandwidth to negotiate 40 (was the number used) individual NEW Trade Deals because it hasn't got the expertise not having done any for more than 40 Years. Therefore Government will concentrate on "Cut and Paste" Rollover of existing EU Trade Deals. There was no disent within the Article that this wasn't entirely possible Whether this was what was promised in the Brexit Debate is an entirely different matter.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 6, 2022 8:19:52 GMT
I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated. It's not just the war and the energy price inflation though is it? As you have correctly pointed out previously the EU is in a very poor situation due to its previous reliance on Russian gas. With its biggest economy facing energy rationing this winter. the Euro should be on its knees against Sterling, but it is in fact about where it was, despite the Bank of England's recent interventions. Being the first out of lockdown and having the freedoms and opportunities promised by Brexiteers the UK should surely be forging ahead by now, but no. And the response of the government is expected to be to put into practice all those things they said would not happen under Brexit - the deregulatory dropping of standards across the board, together with the prospect of relaxing controls on immigration, the biggest issue for so many Brexit supporters (not yourself), so soon after their implementation. I will say again that the pandemic and war have of course been the biggest impactors on the economy, but Brexit has done nothing to improve the UK's ability to weather those storms, despite the governing Party being the one which was elected on the back of Brexit promises. Thanks for your comments which I largely agree with. My main qualification being it will take many years to take advantage of the freedoms and opportunities of Brexit, not just a few months. Its a funny old world. In 2016 prior to the referendum we were told a vote to leave would lead to a recession, high unemployment, loss of trade, and a collapse of house prices. None of it happened and we actually has record exports in the two years preceding the pandemic. Today, 6 years later, with the US in recession having had two quarters of negative growth, China's economy stalled, and massive inflation of world energy prices which has seriously impacted UK business and balance of payments, we are told that Brexit is failing and we ought to be doing better than Germany!!! Yet again my conviction to leave the EU has been confirmed recently. For decades of EEC/EU membership we saw the collapse of British industry moving to Europe and the Far East. Meanwhile the rest of the EU subsidised their industry, which we were told we could not do. I once went to a presentation by the Labour government's economic advisers in the 00s and was told Tony Blair had no interest in supporting UK industry and Brown had little more. Today we see what is happening still in Germany: ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_4925
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 6, 2022 8:59:05 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 6, 2022 10:49:00 GMT
Has the UK been able to get the same trade deals as the EU has done? I'd be amazed and impressed if so, given that we are now a solo player with a much smaller economic heft when compared to the EU's negotiating and collective bargaining power. Isn't the reality that we may have done deals more quickly than was predicted because we were desperate for them, and as a result sold our farmers and fishermen down the road to get these deals over the line. No longer being part of a large co-operative may give people the sense of freedom and 'sovereignty' they crave, but it'd be the first time in economic history that it allowed the minnow to outcompete the pike. Perhaps 'minnow' is overdoing it somewhat, but you get the point! Meanwhile, I wonder if this is the first step towards re-installing some sanity in our relationship with our European neighbours. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63151813It'll be a tricky tight-rope walk for Truss, or whoever is PM in a few months' time, to develop closer ties with Europe without being accused of trying to rejoin the EU through the back door, which, in reality, is probably what this is all about, given time (and the deaths of the aging Leave voters).
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Post by Davef on Oct 6, 2022 11:03:58 GMT
Has the UK been able to get the same trade deals as the EU has done? I'd be amazed and impressed if so, given that we are now a solo player with a much smaller economic heft when compared to the EU's negotiating and collective bargaining power. Isn't the reality that we may have done deals more quickly than was predicted because we were desperate for them, and as a result sold our farmers and fishermen down the road to get these deals over the line. No longer being part of a large co-operative may give people the sense of freedom and 'sovereignty' they crave, but it'd be the first time in economic history that it allowed the minnow to outcompete the pike. Perhaps 'minnow' is overdoing it somewhat, but you get the point! Meanwhile, I wonder if this is the first step towards re-installing some sanity in our relationship with our European neighbours. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63151813It'll be a tricky tight-rope walk for Truss, or whoever is PM in a few months' time, to develop closer ties with Europe without being accused of trying to rejoin the EU through the back door, which, in reality, is probably what this is all about, given time (and the deaths of the aging Leave voters). That's basically just a meeting of the Council of Europe without Russia who were expelled from it in March. The UK remains a member of that with another 40 odd European nations.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 6, 2022 11:09:27 GMT
Has the UK been able to get the same trade deals as the EU has done? I'd be amazed and impressed if so, given that we are now a solo player with a much smaller economic heft when compared to the EU's negotiating and collective bargaining power. Isn't the reality that we may have done deals more quickly than was predicted because we were desperate for them, and as a result sold our farmers and fishermen down the road to get these deals over the line. No longer being part of a large co-operative may give people the sense of freedom and 'sovereignty' they crave, but it'd be the first time in economic history that it allowed the minnow to outcompete the pike. Perhaps 'minnow' is overdoing it somewhat, but you get the point! Meanwhile, I wonder if this is the first step towards re-installing some sanity in our relationship with our European neighbours. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63151813It'll be a tricky tight-rope walk for Truss, or whoever is PM in a few months' time, to develop closer ties with Europe without being accused of trying to rejoin the EU through the back door, which, in reality, is probably what this is all about, given time (and the deaths of the aging Leave voters). That's basically just a meeting of the Council of Europe without Russia who were expelled from it in March. The UK remains a member of that with another 40 odd European nations. Yes, it's a wider gathering of European nations than just the EU. The EU is sceptical of its worth apparently, but it's an interesting development that Truss, so hostile towards Macron and the EPC while campaigning for Conservative leadership, is now not so! If we are going to slowly start to re-align with the EU, membership and engagement with stuff like this is probably what it'll look like.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 6, 2022 12:22:32 GMT
Has the UK been able to get the same trade deals as the EU has done? I'd be amazed and impressed if so, given that we are now a solo player with a much smaller economic heft when compared to the EU's negotiating and collective bargaining power. Isn't the reality that we may have done deals more quickly than was predicted because we were desperate for them, and as a result sold our farmers and fishermen down the road to get these deals over the line. No longer being part of a large co-operative may give people the sense of freedom and 'sovereignty' they crave, but it'd be the first time in economic history that it allowed the minnow to outcompete the pike. Perhaps 'minnow' is overdoing it somewhat, but you get the point! Meanwhile, I wonder if this is the first step towards re-installing some sanity in our relationship with our European neighbours. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63151813It'll be a tricky tight-rope walk for Truss, or whoever is PM in a few months' time, to develop closer ties with Europe without being accused of trying to rejoin the EU through the back door, which, in reality, is probably what this is all about, given time (and the deaths of the aging Leave voters). The short answer to your first question is NO; the trade deals are better! Sorry that is a bit tongue in cheek, the vast majority of original EU deals have been rolled over between the country and the UK. The Japan deal was amended to add some IT agreements and to phase out tariffs quicker than the EU Japan deal. The deal with Canada which was a relatively new deal with the EU was rolled over with a joint commitment to work on an improved mutually beneficial new deal. Those negotiations are in progress. Incidentally the last time I looked at lot of EU member nations have still not ratified the EU Canada deal.* There was one west African country that held out against rolling over their EU deal, seeking a better deal with the UK. Truss resisted and after the transition period ended, in the first month, when the African country realised they would have to change to WTO trade terms which meant increased tariff on bananas they relented and signed the deal with the UK. As you are no doubt aware there are a host of negotiations ongoing for the UK to make deals with other trade groups and individual countries. One of the reasons I suspect that since the civil service is overwhelmed with work, the government dropped trying to negotiate with the US till the "climate" is better. I'm not Itk, but with us negotiating with Canada and Mexico, if and when those deals are done, the next step would be seeking a North America agreement. There are a lot a minor changes taking place under the radar, such as dropping/reducing the tariffs on food from African countries, which the EU regulations imposed. The EU is a totally different organization to other organizations like NATO, WTO, UN, and the many trade groups around the world. It is a customs union, with European citizenship, European Parliament with MEPs, ECOJ, financial centre, etc. It is on a clear path to political union of Europe. EU citizenship and EU law takes precedence over national law. It already has economic union covering all aspects of the economy such as trade, VAT rules, employment legislation, etc. It is now on the road to fiscal union with the Euro, pandemic recovery fund, new CAP, all controlled from Brussels. There are moves towards common foreign policy, armed forces, majority voting, more common taxation policy etc. France is even considering giving up its place on the UN security Council to the EU. The only sovereignty left to a country will be the option to leave if you don't like it, but woe betide you. * Edit: 16 EU nations have ratified the deal so far. Czechia, Romania, and Bulgaria have refused to sign the deal. This is why EU trade deals move so slowly, there are 28 vested interests i.e. the member nations and the Commission. The UK can make a lot faster progress on trade deals as it is negotiating only for itself, and there are lots of topics of no interest to the UK. For example the rules and trade on olive growing and processing are very important in parts of the EU.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 6, 2022 13:23:40 GMT
Has the UK been able to get the same trade deals as the EU has done? I'd be amazed and impressed if so, given that we are now a solo player with a much smaller economic heft when compared to the EU's negotiating and collective bargaining power. Isn't the reality that we may have done deals more quickly than was predicted because we were desperate for them, and as a result sold our farmers and fishermen down the road to get these deals over the line. No longer being part of a large co-operative may give people the sense of freedom and 'sovereignty' they crave, but it'd be the first time in economic history that it allowed the minnow to outcompete the pike. Perhaps 'minnow' is overdoing it somewhat, but you get the point! Meanwhile, I wonder if this is the first step towards re-installing some sanity in our relationship with our European neighbours. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63151813It'll be a tricky tight-rope walk for Truss, or whoever is PM in a few months' time, to develop closer ties with Europe without being accused of trying to rejoin the EU through the back door, which, in reality, is probably what this is all about, given time (and the deaths of the aging Leave voters). The short answer to your first question is NO; the trade deals are better! Sorry that is a bit tongue in cheek, the vast majority of original EU deals have been rolled over between the country and the UK. The Japan deal was amended to add some IT agreements and to phase out tariffs quicker than the EU Japan deal. The deal with Canada which was a relatively new deal with the EU was rolled over with a joint commitment to work on an improved mutually beneficial new deal. Those negotiations are in progress. Incidentally the last time I looked at lot of EU member nations have still not ratified the EU Canada deal.* There was one west African country that held out against rolling over their EU deal, seeking a better deal with the UK. Truss resisted and after the transition period ended, in the first month, when the African country realised they would have to change to WTO trade terms which meant increased tariff on bananas they relented and signed the deal with the UK. As you are no doubt aware there are a host of negotiations ongoing for the UK to make deals with other trade groups and individual countries. One of the reasons I suspect that since the civil service is overwhelmed with work, the government dropped trying to negotiate with the US till the "climate" is better. I'm not Itk, but with us negotiating with Canada and Mexico, if and when those deals are done, the next step would be seeking a North America agreement. There are a lot a minor changes taking place under the radar, such as dropping/reducing the tariffs on food from African countries, which the EU regulations imposed. The EU is a totally different organization to other organizations like NATO, WTO, UN, and the many trade groups around the world. It is a customs union, with European citizenship, European Parliament with MEPs, ECOJ, financial centre, etc. It is on a clear path to political union of Europe. EU citizenship and EU law takes precedence over national law. It already has economic union covering all aspects of the economy such as trade, VAT rules, employment legislation, etc. It is now on the road to fiscal union with the Euro, pandemic recovery fund, new CAP, all controlled from Brussels. There are moves towards common foreign policy, armed forces, majority voting, more common taxation policy etc. France is even considering giving up its place on the UN security Council to the EU. The only sovereignty left to a country will be the option to leave if you don't like it, but woe betide you. * Edit: 16 EU nations have ratified the deal so far. Czechia, Romania, and Bulgaria have refused to sign the deal. This is why EU trade deals move so slowly, there are 28 vested interests i.e. the member nations and the Commission. The UK can make a lot faster progress on trade deals as it is negotiating only for itself, and there are lots of topics of no interest to the UK. For example the rules and trade on olive growing and processing are very important in parts of the EU. I'd be amazed, frankly, if deals between individual countries with limited financial and economic clout as a consequence of their size are 'better' than comparable deals obtained by a bloc like the EU. After all, that's why so many other countries are forming their own trading blocs around the globe with that benefit in mind. You may be right that the absence of other countries' involvement speeds up the process but it'd be a first if one smaller, individual country got more favourable overall terms by being on the outside of a large trading bloc than being in it. Surely we wouldn't be £80-£100bn a year worse off if that were the case!
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Post by wannabee on Oct 6, 2022 15:06:54 GMT
Your rerunning the Brexit Debate pre Referendum of which a lot of Crap was said on both sides. Some organisations were even Prosecuted for breaking Campaign Rules you may recall. This is a particular gem on the Vote Leave Website After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. Many countries around the world trade with the EU without accepting the supremacy of EU law. www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_trade.htmlThere are six fundamental questions I have posed to you in recent posts which you have declined to answer. Perhaps if you don't address here you may in your next quarterly report 1. Liz wants a bigger Pie. Of the G7 Countries UK is the only one with a smaller GDP Pie compared to pre-pandemic 2. Sterling has fallen against the Dollar and Euro since Brexit Referendum and continued to fall since end of Transition period ended This has had a knock-on effect to UK Gilts which are the highest in G7 besides Italy 3. Lack of confidence in UK Economy and uncoherent UK Government Policies has substantially reduced Net Foreign Direct Investment since Brexit. S&P and Fitch have downgraded UK Credit Rating to negative 4. The BoE periodically publish data collected by DMP and verified by ONS show Domestic Business Investment back to 2010 levels. Of course Covid had a part to play but Brexit is listed as the Number 1 Factor 5. The UK Current Account Deficit continues to widen to Historically High Levels meanwhile fully one third of UK Companies that previously Exported to EU have stopped entirely due to being unable to cope with cost of new Export Regulations. Its difficult to understand how this will grow Lizzy's Pie 6. Worldwide workforces have shrunk but again in G7 UK is only better than Italy and some have increased. Italy -1.9% UK -1.2% Japan -1.0% US -0.3% Germany -0.3% France +0.6% Canada +1.7% I will be interested to hear your reasons why Brexit is not at least partially responsible for UK to be an outlier and a Laggard Economy Of course the latest Libertarian Brexit Lunatic Administration are very likely to wreck further havoc on the Economy but they are now merely enacting what their original Brexit goals were now that they are fully in charge.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 6, 2022 17:00:03 GMT
Your rerunning the Brexit Debate pre Referendum of which a lot of Crap was said on both sides. Some organisations were even Prosecuted for breaking Campaign Rules you may recall. This is a particular gem on the Vote Leave Website After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. Many countries around the world trade with the EU without accepting the supremacy of EU law. www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_trade.htmlThere are six fundamental questions I have posed to you in recent posts which you have declined to answer. Perhaps if you don't address here you may in your next quarterly report See last comment below.1. Liz wants a bigger Pie. Of the G7 Countries UK is the only one with a smaller GDP Pie compared to pre-pandemic This is because the UK was more seriously impacted by the pandemic than other countries and had the biggest drop in GDP, as you well know because it is the reason you gave for the UK having the largest increase in GDP of the G7 in 2021 the first year of Brexit. We also seem to be doing better than some other G7 economies in 2022 such as the US. Onward and upwards. Maybe you think Brexit is the reason the UK was so hard hit by the pandemic? Boris was slow to lockdown, unprepared and mismanaged a host of issues like protecting the elderly, ppe, tracking, etc. but to his credit got the UK out of the pandemic sooner that the EU naysayers who criticised the UK vaccination programme. Credit where it is due, but rightly sacked for partying.2. Sterling has fallen against the Dollar and Euro since Brexit Referendum and continued to fall since end of Transition period ended This has had a knock-on effect to UK Gilts which are the highest in G7 besides Italy So what's new? Sterling has been falling since the UK had an empire, before the UK joined the EEC, during membership of the EEC/EU and since the referendum and leaving. I have lost count of the number of times we have devalued, or gone to the gnomes, left the exchange mechanism, etc. It will only strengthen when the UK stops propping up the EU with a massive trade deficit and start to grow the economy a lot faster. That will never happen as a member of the EU, where growth is the slowest in the world (prepandemic). Have you studied the UK trade deficit with the EU since Maastricht?3. Lack of confidence in UK Economy and uncoherent UK Government Policies has substantially reduced Net Foreign Direct Investment since Brexit. S&P and Fitch have downgraded UK Credit Rating to negative You are playing with numbers. Inward investment is at near record level, particularly in Fintech. Outward investment is also at a record which will reap dividends in the future. Credit rating has everything to do with the present government, would not have happened if Sunak had won the Tory leadership, and nothing to do with Brexit.4. The BoE periodically publish data collected by DMP and verified by ONS show Domestic Business Investment back to 2010 levels. Of course Covid had a part to play but Brexit is listed as the Number 1 Factor As I pointed out in my last review the number of new business start ups is at record levels. The green shoots of the post Brexit age. Naturally investors have been held back by the uncertainty of Brexit, EU trade deal, pandemic, and now high inflation. 20% of new companies fail in the first year, so record start ups will inevitably lead to record business failures, but I expect Brexit will get the blame.5. The UK Current Account Deficit continues to widen to Historically High Levels meanwhile fully one third of UK Companies that previously Exported to EU have stopped entirely due to being unable to cope with cost of new Export Regulations. Its difficult to understand how this will grow Lizzy's Pie Again current account deficit government policy nothing to do with Brexit. Energy cost inflation has dominated economic issues for the last 2 years, particularly since the war. SMEs have stopped exporting because of EU red tape and because of increased transport costs which has made marginal business not worth all the effort, better to concentrate on domestic sales and exporting to non EU countries. Very few have actually gone out of business but I expect a lot will soon due to energy costs, which you will no doubt blame on Brexit.6. Worldwide workforces have shrunk but again in G7 UK is only better than Italy and some have increased. Italy -1.9% UK -1.2% Japan -1.0% US -0.3% Germany -0.3% France +0.6% Canada +1.7% Not important. Most of my life this country has suffered unsatisfactory levels of unemployment. What can be more wasteful than people on the dole? Since the pandemic and Brexit we have the lowest level of unemployment for over 40 years. Thank God for Brexit. Never has there been a better time for our young people to come out of education to get a job. Let us celebrate Brexit. The shortage of labour will be at met by immigration with people granted a visa to fill needed jobs and not take jobs UK residents want to do. This is still one of the best countries in the world to move to. I also believe it will spur investment in automation and robotics and boost productivity something the UK has been laggardly at for generations. It has been too easy for employers to employ cheap labour in the past. I will be interested to hear your reasons why Brexit is not at least partially responsible for UK to be an outlier and a Laggard Economy The main reason for Brexit is to restore the sovereignty of Parliament, whichever party is in power. You are too obsessed with the economy, which will benefit massively in the long term from our own government free of EU regulations and growing our trade more rapidly with the >80% of the world economy that is not in the EU. You might be happy to hand over law making to the EU I'm not. Of course the latest Libertarian Brexit Lunatic Administration are very likely to wreck further havoc on the Economy but they are now merely enacting what their original Brexit goals were now that they are fully in charge. Best remove them from power then and adopt the Starmer version of Brexit. What are you doing about it? You clearly are very clever what are you doing wasting your time posting to this old retired Brexiteer? I have not answered your questions recently because I have been busy involved in a Christian Prayer Conference last weekend. I will give you more of my attention now to help you out with your queries. Q3 has just ended, but it will be a couple of months before all the stats are published for me to produce my next quarterly review of Brexit. I will endeavour to return to your questions again.See answers above in blue
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Oct 14, 2022 6:46:00 GMT
They may as well just write to Santa Claus
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Post by wannabee on Oct 14, 2022 10:20:16 GMT
They may as well just write to Santa Claus It takes a Special kind of talent to get all 5 Northern-ireland Leaders to agree on anything No doubt Mr Coke will be able to explain later why sometimes "Less is More" I would caution against using Sovereignty in the Northern-ireland context
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Post by toppercorner on Oct 14, 2022 20:47:45 GMT
cheers brexiteers
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Post by wannabee on Oct 15, 2022 10:51:23 GMT
If we consider the following Statement there really shouldn't be any further requirement for discussion as to whether Brexit was a success or not " In 2016, Britain’s economy was 90 per cent the size of Germany’s. Now it is less than 70 per cent. And that’s before today" Mark Carney 23 September 2022
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Post by skemstokie on Oct 15, 2022 12:40:23 GMT
So Mr Coke how are Liz Truss, the value of sterling and stock markets doing? I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated. In these days of high fuel prices and a climate crisis what is the point of seeking trade deals with distant countries? shop local is the way to go,when trading with the EU we know the quality will be high, the food will not be pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. And as for handing over legislation over to the EU we were one of the major influences in most legislation decisions. Brexit was always destined to be a failure.
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 15, 2022 14:10:58 GMT
I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated. In these days of high fuel prices and a climate crisis what is the point of seeking trade deals with distant countries? shop local is the way to go,when trading with the EU we know the quality will be high, the food will not be pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. And as for handing over legislation over to the EU we were one of the major influences in most legislation decisions. Brexit was always destined to be a failure. The hormones and antibiotics argument is an interesting one. I had a very stable diet and weight for years in the UK and NL. When I moved to the US, my weight skyrocketed despite eating the same meals. At the time it was great, because I did a lot of weights. I went back to normal when I went organic and pay 3x the cost for the privilege. Food regulations are important.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 15, 2022 18:21:35 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Oct 15, 2022 18:40:27 GMT
This new Sovereignty, which we always had is working really well
First Tory MPs got rid of Boris who had blotted his copybook once too often. Fair enough I suppose
Next we had a Talentless Contest of Coquettish hopefuls parading their alleged talents. Importantly MPs voted them off one by one. Also fair enough
Ultimately we get down to the Two Candidates most favoured by MPs. The Tory Membership then made the final selection, all 80,000 of them How on God's Green Earth is this Sovereignty by any definition
The fact the Tory Membership selected a Total Lunatic as PM who trashed the Economy is merely incidental
We then had a Coup where the PMs co-conspirator in the trashing of the Economy was ousted and replaced by another as Chancellor
This new Chancellor has/will now reverse everything The Lunatic had asked the previous Chancellor to put in place.
The Lunatic remains in Office as PM but new Chancellor is in Power
A peculiar British kind of Sovereignty
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 15, 2022 18:50:05 GMT
This new Sovereignty, which we always had is working really well First Tory MPs got rid of Boris who had blotted his copybook once too often. Fair enough I suppose Next we had a Talentless Contest of Coquettish hopefuls parading their alleged talents. Importantly MPs voted them off one by one. Also fair enough Ultimately we get down to the Two Candidates most favoured by MPs. The Tory Membership then made the final selection, all 80,000 of them How on God's Green Earth is this Sovereignty by any definition The fact the Tory Membership selected a Total Lunatic as PM who trashed the Economy is merely incidental We then had a Coup where the PMs co-conspirator in the trashing of the Economy was ousted and replaced by another as Chancellor This new Chancellor has/will now reverse everything The Lunatic had asked the previous Chancellor to put in place. The Lunatic remains in Office as PM but new Chancellor is in Power A peculiar British kind of Sovereignty You don’t vote for a party leader in a general election, you vote for your local MP. It’s not that hard to understand.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 15, 2022 19:03:40 GMT
I'm always prepared to give credit where it is due, which in that case, when Liz Truss was trade secretary, was achieving the roll over of trade deals which those opposed to Brexit said it could not be achieved because the UK was too small. The same people who said new trade deals could take up to a decade. The GDP will be recovered in less than 5 years despite a pandemic and Ukraine war. The UK already has more trade deals than the EU and in a few years will have a lot more. As a point of information the UK is still not in recession, despite the US having 2 quarters of negative growth, China having zero growth in Q2, and Germany's economy stalled. The UK is not doing that badly. Full employment, lowest unemployment in over 40 years, lower inflation than most EU countries. The UK GDP dropped more than the rest of the G7 in the pandemic, we left the EU and the economy has recovered strongly when those who said there would be recession if the UK voted to leave the EU. When that recession did not happen, those opposed to Brexit said there would be recession when the UK actually left the EU. That did not happen either the UK left the EU and had the largest increase of GDP in the G7 in 2021. The negative predictions by those opposed to Brexit are always the same, doom and disaster next year, or by 2030. It has taken a war and hyper energy price inflation to cause an economic slowdown. My main reason for supporting Brexit is not economic, it is sovereignty. I don't agree with handing legislation over to the EU. I believe this country should be like most countries, not in the EU, making our own laws. I always expected problems with the economy leaving a customs union after nearly half a century and they have actually been a lot less than I anticipated. In these days of high fuel prices and a climate crisis what is the point of seeking trade deals with distant countries? shop local is the way to go,when trading with the EU we know the quality will be high, the food will not be pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. And as for handing over legislation over to the EU we were one of the major influences in most legislation decisions. Brexit was always destined to be a failure. Thank you for your response, my response is: 1. I fully expect the EU to continue to be the UK's main trading partner driven by the gravitational theory. I am in favour of a European free trade area and voted to stay in the EEC in the 70s. 2. The quality of other imports are what our government chooses to permit. We are a sovereign country. There seems to be a view on this MB that the UK should be in the EU because we have poor politicians incapable of running the country, so we should hand over government to Brussels. 3. Most UK trade is services not goods. Fuel cost and climate considerations are less significant than movement of goods. 4. In the future movement of goods will become carbon neutral with ships powered by wind and solar and "green" fuels such as hydrogen. Currently the vast majority of world goods movement is the "east" to "west" with empty containers moving in the opposite direction. There have been cases of negative container charge for exporting goods to the far east, because those countries want the containers back for their exports. 5. The UK is perfectly capable of managing itself as the world's 6th largest economy. Electing competent government is down to all of us. My experience on a European committee is that Germany and its satellites rule the roost; the peripheral countries like UK, Scandinavia, east Europe, and Mediterranean had little influence. Here is yet another example, I have cited many down the years, this one is really scary: www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/german-chancellor-olaf-scholz-calls-for-end-of-unanimity-on-eu-foreign-policy-decisions-42069093.html" An EU rapid reaction armed force" no thanks This week Angela Merkel has actually been defending her policy of Germany becoming so highly dependant on Russia for energy. What does it take to change minds? All out war?!!! Putin has a lot of support in the Europe: www.politico.eu/article/italys-lurch-to-the-right-triggers-international-furore-election-vladimir-putin-silvio-berlusconi-matteo-salvini-ursula-von-der-leyen-decent-people/The Maastricht Treaty was the game changer for me, when EU laws took precedence of national laws, when the EU judiciary took precedence over national judiciary, and EU citizenship took precedence over national citizenship. Given the performance of of the present government I can understand people's despair, but that is no reason to hand over the running of the country to the EU. We can do better.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 15, 2022 19:09:40 GMT
This new Sovereignty, which we always had is working really well First Tory MPs got rid of Boris who had blotted his copybook once too often. Fair enough I suppose Next we had a Talentless Contest of Coquettish hopefuls parading their alleged talents. Importantly MPs voted them off one by one. Also fair enough Ultimately we get down to the Two Candidates most favoured by MPs. The Tory Membership then made the final selection, all 80,000 of them How on God's Green Earth is this Sovereignty by any definition The fact the Tory Membership selected a Total Lunatic as PM who trashed the Economy is merely incidental We then had a Coup where the PMs co-conspirator in the trashing of the Economy was ousted and replaced by another as Chancellor This new Chancellor has/will now reverse everything The Lunatic had asked the previous Chancellor to put in place. The Lunatic remains in Office as PM but new Chancellor is in Power A peculiar British kind of Sovereignty You don’t vote for a party leader in a general election, you vote for your local MP. It’s not that hard to understand. Whoosh, your lack of intelligence failed to comprehend that 80,000 Tory Party Members Elected the PM
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 15, 2022 19:28:59 GMT
You don’t vote for a party leader in a general election, you vote for your local MP. It’s not that hard to understand. Whoosh, your lack of intelligence failed to comprehend that 80,000 Tory Party Members Elected the PM I still don’t get the point and I don’t know how it’s got anything to do with Brexit. I have no issue with a party voting in their own leader. If you want to change the electoral system itself, perhaps start a petition and get enough signatories for it to be debated?
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