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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 3, 2022 17:23:22 GMT
Love it. Getting Brexit done and Jeremy Corbyn are the reasons almost everyone gives for excusing electing this current crop of corrupt incompetents, but you keep banging that drum! Oh I’ll keep banging it Why do you think they chose Johnson to get brexit done Could it be they didn’t trust labour to deliver the will of the people Due to starmer and his constant undermining Why? Because an awful lot of people will believe any old shit if it comes out of the mouths of their preferred tribe, and even worse, will refuse to apply any critical thinking if it goes against what they'd prefer to believe.
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 3, 2022 18:53:42 GMT
Oh I’ll keep banging it Why do you think they chose Johnson to get brexit done Could it be they didn’t trust labour to deliver the will of the people Due to starmer and his constant undermining Why? Because an awful lot of people will believe any old shit if it comes out of the mouths of their preferred tribe, and even worse, will refuse to apply any critical thinking if it goes against what they'd prefer to believe. Which is exactly why some will vote for starmer The leader of the Labour Party who bans MPs from picket lines
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 3, 2022 19:32:09 GMT
Oh I’ll keep banging it Why do you think they chose Johnson to get brexit done Could it be they didn’t trust labour to deliver the will of the people Due to starmer and his constant undermining Why? Because an awful lot of people will believe any old shit if it comes out of the mouths of their preferred tribe, and even worse, will refuse to apply any critical thinking if it goes against what they'd prefer to believe. It is also possible that when asked the question, more people who voted just decided that they would prefer not to belong to the EU, they would rather the UK be independent of the political and economic organisation. I know it is very difficult to understand.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 4, 2022 8:29:53 GMT
Why? Because an awful lot of people will believe any old shit if it comes out of the mouths of their preferred tribe, and even worse, will refuse to apply any critical thinking if it goes against what they'd prefer to believe. It is also possible that when asked the question, more people who voted just decided that they would prefer not to belong to the EU, they would rather the UK be independent of the political and economic organisation. I know it is very difficult to understand. True. But I wonder how many would've done so if they'd been able to see the mess the country would be in as a result six years later? As that list of hundreds of polls I've referred to previously indicates, increasingly fewer is the answer. Not surprising really.
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Post by knype on Sept 4, 2022 8:33:23 GMT
It is also possible that when asked the question, more people who voted just decided that they would prefer not to belong to the EU, they would rather the UK be independent of the political and economic organisation. I know it is very difficult to understand. True. But I wonder how many would've done so if they'd been able to see the mess the country would be in as a result six years later? As that list of hundreds of polls I've referred to previously indicates, increasingly fewer is the answer. Not surprising really. So you keep saying, I dare to say that if Corbyn had gotten into power we would be in a lot worse state
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 4, 2022 8:47:12 GMT
It is also possible that when asked the question, more people who voted just decided that they would prefer not to belong to the EU, they would rather the UK be independent of the political and economic organisation. I know it is very difficult to understand. True. But I wonder how many would've done so if they'd been able to see the mess the country would be in as a result six years later? As that list of hundreds of polls I've referred to previously indicates, increasingly fewer is the answer. Not surprising really. Thank you for letting me know.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 5, 2022 23:15:40 GMT
oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7581388We agree about our government's ineptitude, particularly the May administration whose errors were compounded by Johnson's rush to conclude an agreement; it seemed to be a case of "agree anything, just get it done, we'll sort out the problems later". I've promised not to quote City AM again, let's move on. Whilst everyone is absorbed in the energy crisis created by the war in Ukraine and the consequential inflation, I think we are being deflected from the crucial issue facing mankind, namely climate change and its consequential effect on feeding the world population. The UK Agriculture Act is not an event but an evolutionary change in British agriculture with a high degree of consultation at each stage. It will take many years, and different governments will have their chance to changer/improve it, now we are a sovereign country. As for the CAP I have spelt out my loathing for the system below. I don't see trade deals with Australia, NZ, and others in the future " pitting" their farmers against ours. There will always be a place on the British dining table for prime quality beef, lamb, pork, etc. although the consumption of red meat is declining. 81% of beef sold in the UK is under the British logo, however Aldi, Budgens, Co-op, Lidl, M&S, Morrison’s and Waitrose all use 100% British Beef. We import 100,000 tonnes of beef pa, I expect other imports will actually displace EU imports, and prime British beef production will continue. You are rightly critical of India's ethics, but did you ever question Germany entering into NordSteam 2 after Russia invaded Georgia and the Crimea? I know this in "whataboutery" but the behaviour of other nations in the EU like Hungary and Poland are questionable, not forgetting the EU is keen for Turkey and Ukraine (the second most corrupt country in Europe after Russia) to join the EU. The fact is we have to deal with countries like Saudi Arabia and China, so in the case of India let us do it to our advantage. I have worked for the Indians for 6 years and the French for 7 years and found the former far more honourable to deal with. And so to the subject of the EU Common Agricultural Policy. Food seems to be a major topic of this post and 2022 marks the 60th anniversary of the EU common agricultural policy (CAP), one of the cornerstones of the European project that claims to provide EU citizens with a wide variety of high-quality food at affordable prices for decades. www.consilium.europa.eu/en/60-years-of-common-agricultural-policy/Sixty years since its birth, do the original CAP objectives of food security and affordability, fair living standards for farmers and stable and reliable markets remain valid? If the CAP success is measured by a plentiful supply of food whereby anyone can go into any supermarket and buy virtually any food they desire on every day of the year, then, yes, the CAP is a huge success. On the opposite side of the coin however, this achievement is at the cost of huge over production of food and massive waste throughout the food chain starting with unharvested crops long before the UK left the EU. feedbackglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Farm_waste_report_.pdfThis is all subsidised by the tax payers, most notably by those countries that are net financial contributors like the major ones Germany, France, The Netherlands, and Italy. The major food exporting countries in the EU are The Netherlands, France, Belgium, Italy and Germany - do you get the picture? The EU countries export most of their food to other EU countries, but also export to the UK, US, China, Switzerland, Russia, and Japan. It has also, in the past, dumped excess Italian tomato production in West African damaging the local farmers businesses. Historically 75% of the EU tax payers CAP funding (over 1 billion Euros per week) goes to unconditional per hectare ‘income’ payments – of which 80% go to the top 20% of beneficiaries. So are all farmers rich? No, a pan-European media network Euractive article published in April, 2021, stated that between 2005 and 2014, 4 million farms have disappeared in the EU, many of which were small farms. In August 2017 Farmer's Weekly stated " Overall, one-fifth of English farms have disappeared in the past 10 years, but the rate is fastest among the smallest farms." A report by the Campaign to Protect Rural England stated " Almost one-third of farms under 50ha disappeared between 2005 and 2015"; and they warned that " Small family farms could disappear by 2050." www.fwi.co.uk/news/farm-policy/small-family-farms-disappear-2050-cpre-warnswww.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/agriculture-commissioner-points-finger-at-cap-for-demise-of-small-farms/So why do some farmers support the CAP? The EU CAP is about taking tax payers money and handing it to the richest farmers, huge farm businesses, large corporate interests, and the landed gentry. We can expect howls of anguish and scare scaremongering of food shortages from these people over the next few years as the CAP is dismantled in the UK. The EU are hand in glove with capitalist across the world like pigs in the trough using public money to exploit the environment and poison the planet. www.iatp.org/blog/202007/public-money-plunder-planet-development-banks-fund-big-meat-and-dairyAcross Europe, farmland birds, insects and mammals are experiencing dramatic declines. Agriculture is the main cause of species and habitat loss, according to environmental bodies due to intensive farming. wwfeu.awsassets.panda.org/downloads/report_on_last_chance_cap.pdfThe EU CAP is one of the major causes of pollution throughout Europe. www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1219/investigation-how-cap-promotes-pollution/60% of European waters are highly polluted with agriculture being a major cause. www.downtoearth.org.in/news/water/60-european-water-bodies-highly-polluted-study-61058Sewage pollution has been in the UK headlines for months, but the main source of UK river pollution is fertilisers and pesticides. These are toxic chemicals not human waste which mankind has been disposing of since it first walked the earth. In much of the world no, or very little, sewage is treated. www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59898988So what about the EU claim that the CAP produces food at affordable prices? There is no evidence to suggest EU food prices are lower than the rest of the world despite this years CAP budget for EU farmers being €53bn. (Yes that's billions!) www.agriland.ie/farming-news/eu-budget-for-2022-includes-e53bn-for-cap/There is plenty of evidence that there is plenty of food in the EU; in normal years around 88 million tonnes of food waste are generated annually, 20% 0f total production, with associated costs estimated at 143 billion Euros. Meanwhile over 36 million people in the EU cannot afford a quality meal every second day (pre current crisis which is making things even worse). food.ec.europa.eu/safety/food-waste_enFinally it is necessary to explode the myth of EU food security. In a report published by the Pesticide Action Network (PAN-Europe) almost a third of apples and nearly half of all blackberries analysed had traces of chemicals used in the most toxic types of pesticides, linked to cancers, cardiovascular problems and diabetes. The analysis, based on almost 100,000 samples, highlights a 53 percent increase in contamination by the most hazardous pesticides found in fruit over the period 2011-2019. www.pan-europe.info/sites/pan-europe.info/files/public/resources/reports/ForbiddenFruit_01.pdfNearly four in five meat and dairy products from Dutch farm animals contained microplastics in a small-scale study from the Free University of Amsterdam. www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/07/plastic-found-in-nearly-four-fifths-of-dutch-meat-and-dairy-in-small-study/Big business claims to be taking green action but the reality is it isn't; two-thirds of pledges to go greener on plastic fail or are dropped www.dw.com/en/european-food-companies-break-their-plastics-promises/a-62622509The EU praises its new CAP due to begin in 2023 which requires each member country to produce its own CAP strategic plan. But the new CAP has been heavily criticised by environmental organizations who say once again the EU has sold out to large agribusiness interests, encouraging overproduction and negatively impacting biodiversity. www.birdlife.org/news/2021/06/25/press-release-bad-cap-deal-kill-nature_25june2021/www.climatechangenews.com/2021/11/23/eus-reformed-agricultural-policy-fails-climate-goals-say-green-groups/The European Dairy associated welcomes the new CAP while environmentalists condemn it. www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2021/06/28/EU-Common-Agricultural-Policy-reform-pleases-dairy-and-angers-environmentalistsThe EU has not responded to the criticism but actually " expressed reservations" to France for failing to implement the intended measures, and sent a letter on 31 March and calling out the French government for not meeting the CAP’s environmental standards. www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/frances-cap-plan-only-partially-supports-green-transition-commission-says/You say you " think the latest version is quite ambitious in its objectives", I challenge you to think again, which side are you on? IMO Ending of the CAP in the UK is one of the major benefits of leaving the EU.
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Post by 4372 on Sept 5, 2022 23:44:20 GMT
Again, stop with the untruths. Every country, inside or outside the EU has sovereign powers to control it's own affairs. It's a cheap slur on developed democracies.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 6, 2022 8:28:14 GMT
Again, stop with the untruths. Every country, inside or outside the EU has sovereign powers to control it's own affairs. It's a cheap slur on developed democracies. The UK is negotiating its own trade deals, members of the EU are not allowed to. The UK has introduced a new agriculture reform programme, whereas members of the EU have to conform to EU Common Agriculture Policy. (Of course what does happen is many EU member countries ignore the EU rules, I suppose that is a sort of sovereignty.) EU member countries have to conform with EU environmental legislation . Denmark, one of the most proactive environmental countries in the world announced on 2 October 2018 that it will ban the sale of new cars with internal combustion engines by 2030, but the EU Commission overruled them saying that was illegal. They had to conform with EU policy. In 2019 the UK government were forced to increase VAT on renewables by the European Court of Justice to bring the UK into line with EU policy. www.power-technology.com/news/hmrc-vat-solar/
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Post by 4372 on Sept 6, 2022 12:05:26 GMT
Again, stop with the untruths. Every country, inside or outside the EU has sovereign powers to control it's own affairs. It's a cheap slur on developed democracies. The UK is negotiating its own trade deals, members of the EU are not allowed to. The UK has introduced a new agriculture reform programme, whereas members of the EU have to conform to EU Common Agriculture Policy. (Of course what does happen is many EU member countries ignore the EU rules, I suppose that is a sort of sovereignty.) EU member countries have to conform with EU environmental legislation . Denmark, one of the most proactive environmental countries in the world announced on 2 October 2018 that it will ban the sale of new cars with internal combustion engines by 2030, but the EU Commission overruled them saying that was illegal. They had to conform with EU policy. In 2019 the UK government were forced to increase VAT on renewables by the European Court of Justice to bring the UK into line with EU policy. www.power-technology.com/news/hmrc-vat-solar/Second attempt. Sovereignty is demonstrated periodically via elections. Parliaments and Governments across the EU choose to work together.
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 6, 2022 14:37:28 GMT
The UK is negotiating its own trade deals, members of the EU are not allowed to. The UK has introduced a new agriculture reform programme, whereas members of the EU have to conform to EU Common Agriculture Policy. (Of course what does happen is many EU member countries ignore the EU rules, I suppose that is a sort of sovereignty.) EU member countries have to conform with EU environmental legislation . Denmark, one of the most proactive environmental countries in the world announced on 2 October 2018 that it will ban the sale of new cars with internal combustion engines by 2030, but the EU Commission overruled them saying that was illegal. They had to conform with EU policy. In 2019 the UK government were forced to increase VAT on renewables by the European Court of Justice to bring the UK into line with EU policy. www.power-technology.com/news/hmrc-vat-solar/Second attempt. Sovereignty is demonstrated periodically via elections. Parliaments and Governments across the EU choose to work together. Better not to think of ‘sovereignty’ as a binary. There are degrees of sovereignty. EU members are technically sovereign insofar as they are free to leave. On some matters (e.g. defence) they are technically and practically sovereign in others (e.g. monetary policy for EZ members) they definitely are not. I believe some US states assert the right to leave that Union so they might consider themselves technically sovereign.
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Post by 4372 on Sept 6, 2022 15:06:26 GMT
If a state (as represented by it's democratically elected institutions) freely chooses to enter into international agreements, I fail to see where any sovereignty has been lost.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 6, 2022 15:10:18 GMT
Second attempt. Sovereignty is demonstrated periodically via elections. Parliaments and Governments across the EU choose to work together. Better not to think of ‘sovereignty’ as a binary. There are degrees of sovereignty. EU members are technically sovereign insofar as they are free to leave. On some matters (e.g. defence) they are technically and practically sovereign in others (e.g. monetary policy for EZ members) they definitely are not. I believe some US states assert the right to leave that Union so they might consider themselves technically sovereign. That may be true on one sense Swampy, but it should be remembered that the EU is an unfinished project...despite the debate about the importance of the words ' ever closer union' in both the EU treaties is important....As long as the direction of travel is economic and political union then the EU hierarchy is happy...whether it be small steps are big jumps.....there no doubt that an EU army has been suggested and in my opinion the requirement ( or the necessity/ importance) of bring in the Eurogroup will become central....ie if you are not in the Euro , you are not in the inner circle......so logic says you should join. Specifically another way of looking at sovereignty in respect of the EU.....the ability to make decisions without reference to the directives and regulations of the EU, not subject to the European Court of Justice, not bound by the Agricultural Policy, the Industrial Policy ( etc)...if you like in your interpretation....we have a bit more sovereignty ( for me that is semantics). There no doubt that the European Parliament had precedence over the Uk Parliament. In my opinion most of those who voted leave did so in the simple belief that they wanted" freedom from European control)..... which doesn't mean that we don't have to negotiate/ give and take in respect of relations with other countries....but from now on we do that as the UK not let it be done on our behalf by the EU. Of course many will / do/ did argue that the implications for trade/ trade deals and for change are/ could be such that it is worth pooling our sovereignty/ or " coming to heel"( whichever you want to look at it) by staying in the EU. I would also add that the UK/ British citizens have never been enthusiastic members of the EU....I don't believe that we would ever truly accept a political and economic system based in Brussels and largely controlled by Germany and France.....and to get your head around how the EU actually works and the role of the 7 institutions and 5 ( last time I looked) Presidents, is a mammoth task.....democracy should not be so complicated and remote from the people....the EU was certainly remote from British people ( name two Euro MPs?)......it is a little different for France and Germany....geography and history matter.....being on the same land mass, proximity to Brussels/ Strassbourg, sharing borders, being occupied during the Second World War etc...and other EU Member States have experienced dictatorships ans soviet bloc control....the EU makes much more sense for them. Anyway we decided to leave in 2016 so , for me, no point in continuing the debate/ inquest.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 6, 2022 15:29:09 GMT
I say this with the greatest respect, is there anyone on here not in the autumn of their working life/already retired with a decent pension to fall back on that is willing to defend the current situation post-Brexit and highlight the benefits to their life in the short/medium term? And I say this as someone who voted remain but was perfectly happy to respect the democratic vote of the country and get on with things, but it's quite different for an individual who is relatively financially secure to suggest they're happy to wait patiently for the outcome of various trade deals and for the Northern Ireland debacle to be concluded, compared to someone that may be more directly affected by the here and now? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts, particularly the younger posters amongst us and not old duffers like myself ............
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 6, 2022 15:36:28 GMT
I say this with the greatest respect, is there anyone on here not in the autumn of their working life/already retired with a decent pension to fall back on that is willing to defend the current situation post-Brexit and highlight the benefits to their life in the short/medium term? And I say this as someone who voted remain but was perfectly happy to respect the democratic vote of the country and get on with things, but it's quite different for an individual who is relatively financially secure to suggest they're happy to wait patiently for the outcome of various trade deals and for the Northern Ireland debacle to be concluded, compared to someone that may be more directly affected by the here and now? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts, particularly the younger posters amongst us and not old duffers like myself ............ Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 6, 2022 15:39:53 GMT
I say this with the greatest respect, is there anyone on here not in the autumn of their working life/already retired with a decent pension to fall back on that is willing to defend the current situation post-Brexit and highlight the benefits to their life in the short/medium term? And I say this as someone who voted remain but was perfectly happy to respect the democratic vote of the country and get on with things, but it's quite different for an individual who is relatively financially secure to suggest they're happy to wait patiently for the outcome of various trade deals and for the Northern Ireland debacle to be concluded, compared to someone that may be more directly affected by the here and now? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts, particularly the younger posters amongst us and not old duffers like myself ............ Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁 I suppose I should have clarified but I include those in their 30's and early 40's as "young un's" for the purpose of this (I'm just falling into the late 40's category )
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 6, 2022 15:47:13 GMT
If a state (as represented by it's democratically elected institutions) freely chooses to enter into international agreements, I fail to see where any sovereignty has been lost. The practical exercise of sovereignty. Like I said. It’s not binary.
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 6, 2022 15:57:51 GMT
Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁 I suppose I should have clarified but I include those in their 30's and early 40's as "young un's" for the purpose of this (I'm just falling into the late 40's category ) By your definition I’m a young-un 😀 I also voted remain. I can probably say that, more than most, Brexit has been an administrative headache for me and cutoff some potential job opportunities. I do think it’s possible to have a more rounded view. There will be winners and losers in both the short and long run. Probably not going to demonstrate my astounding reasonableness and perceptive mind by enumerating all the advantages and disadvantages 😀
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 6, 2022 16:35:55 GMT
I suppose I should have clarified but I include those in their 30's and early 40's as "young un's" for the purpose of this (I'm just falling into the late 40's category ) By your definition I’m a young-un 😀 I also voted remain. I can probably say that, more than most, Brexit has been an administrative headache for me and cutoff some potential job opportunities. I do think it’s possible to have a more rounded view. There will be winners and losers in both the short and long run. Probably not going to demonstrate my astounding reasonableness and perceptive mind by enumerating all the advantages and disadvantages 😀 Some of the better arguments for Brexit are lexity which I think would likely meet your approval. Actually parts of the Cummings agenda were quite lexity.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 6, 2022 16:37:05 GMT
I say this with the greatest respect, is there anyone on here not in the autumn of their working life/already retired with a decent pension to fall back on that is willing to defend the current situation post-Brexit and highlight the benefits to their life in the short/medium term? And I say this as someone who voted remain but was perfectly happy to respect the democratic vote of the country and get on with things, but it's quite different for an individual who is relatively financially secure to suggest they're happy to wait patiently for the outcome of various trade deals and for the Northern Ireland debacle to be concluded, compared to someone that may be more directly affected by the here and now? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts, particularly the younger posters amongst us and not old duffers like myself ............ I think it is also possible to vote in what a person believes is in the best interests of the country...and most importantly...THE most important thing in my life is my children beyond a shadow of doubt. If we want to believe that all those who turned out did so in good faith as in any other election it is possible to accept the result of the vote on the same vein as any other vote. I don't think that this has been done in respect of the Brexit vote. You could argue that it was such a seismic and fundamental decision on the direction of the country, hence the perennial inquest, unlike any other vote......but equally Leavers could argue that we were taken into the EEC without a prior vote and this morphed into " political and economic union " without a say in the decision. Flags ,Embasses, Parliaments, MEPs, Courts = more than a trading agreement. What was disgraceful was the wasted 2 or 3 years when there was a concerted effort to undermine the vote.....a confirmatory referendum, a hard or soft Brexit, delay and deceit, "bollox to Brexit " I think people forget that all 3 major parties were campaigning to Remain, it wasn't a Tory policy....personally I think Labour, a traditionally more Eurosceptic party missed a great opportunity, particularly with Corbyn, the only leader with genuine Eurosceptic credentials. This doesn't answer your question, but is just an opinion ....it could be that some young people of today change their minds when they turn 50 who knows? When I was a member of the Labour Party in my younger years on joining I was suspected of being a member of Militant Tendency, an infiltrator. I'm sure that Remainers voted with sincerity and the best of intentions, so did Leavers....whether deemed thick, old, misled, Russians etc. I wish " Brexit " was going better than it is.....I could give lots of reasons which in my opinion that is not doing so ( some of which Remainers might not like), but for me it is a debate that isn't worth the time and energy, I'll leave that to others. The challenge now is to try to move forward as a country , facing the the tremendous challenges ahead, with some modicum of unity and " togetherness" or belief in the country....obviously a bit of a naive hope.....something which many of us agree on, I don't believe that we will have a content or peaceful country until we change the voting system as a minimum and wider constitution.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 6, 2022 16:52:27 GMT
I say this with the greatest respect, is there anyone on here not in the autumn of their working life/already retired with a decent pension to fall back on that is willing to defend the current situation post-Brexit and highlight the benefits to their life in the short/medium term? And I say this as someone who voted remain but was perfectly happy to respect the democratic vote of the country and get on with things, but it's quite different for an individual who is relatively financially secure to suggest they're happy to wait patiently for the outcome of various trade deals and for the Northern Ireland debacle to be concluded, compared to someone that may be more directly affected by the here and now? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts, particularly the younger posters amongst us and not old duffers like myself ............ Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁 Quite correct. Like Truss I have been on a "journey" of moulding opinion as I grew older. As a boy I was brought up under Tory rule, Suez, Profumo, etc. Then I was bitterly disappointed by Wilson's promise of "white heat etc." What we got was nationalisation, stagnation, inflation, and devaluation. So in the 70s I joined the Liberal Party and was an active, not sleeping, member. In favour of joining the EEC, PR, etc. But in the 80s I became disillusioned by Liberal duplicity and ceased to have any political allegiance and nothing has convinced me since to support any political party. I also became dissatisfied with EEC membership, although Thatcher kept me "on board" with negotiating the rebate. During the 90s I learnt about the duplicity of other countries in the EEC cheating on rules, taking out more than they were putting in, the whole set up rigged to benefit Germany, France, and Belgium plus handouts to new members like Spain at UK expense. I have quoted on the MB in the past the double standards on issues like safety and electrical regulations. To be fair to Merkel she did clean up Germany's cheating on regulations while she was in power, but we still got examples like "dieselgate", so when she talked about ensuring a "level playing field" I just laughed. In 00s I chaired a European committee and despaired at how the UK was being taken to the cleaners with growing trade deficit, declining industry, etc. I've posted it all before. So when it came to setting up the Euro, Maastricht Treaty, with creation of the EU, and EU law and courts taking precedence over UK institutions, I decided enough was enough. The warnings of Benn, Shaw, Castle, and the right wing such as Powell had come to pass. I believe the people of the country should have the right/ability to remove those people who govern them. I believe Benn was right that the people appoint politicians to rule and not hand over the rule making to others which is very dangerous for democracy. I believe those that support EU membership are blind to the dangers to democracy of having a commission who only draft legislation in one direction and are seeking to centralise all power. I was amazed when Leave won the referendum, but my delight turned to anger when politicians, bankers, CBI, former PMs, Speaker, etc. all tried to undermine and overturn the decision of the people. I have an open mind. I have changed it in the past as I learned from experience and events; I could change my mind again. It is only bigots that can't change their mind. But everything that has happened since 2016 including the behaviour of politicians, the EU, the rabid media (both sides), etc. has confirmed in my mind the decision in 2016 was correct. Thank God we did not get embroiled in EU vaccine procurement policy, which I'm convinced Cameron would have done if he had won the referendum. Thank God we are not embroiled in the EU pandemic recovery plan which effectively locks countries into EU membership and is on the road to fiscal union. Yes, the young are wrong to favour EU membership. I was young once and was one of them, but I grew up. I was not the only one to vote leave. The only region of England to vote remain was London. In the region I live the only people to vote remain were Harrogate. If Scotland or NI want to take a different course of action, that's up to them, just don't expect England to pay for it.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 6, 2022 16:55:34 GMT
Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁 Quite correct. Like Truss I have been on a "journey" of moulding opinion as I grew older. As a boy I was brought up under Tory rule, Suez, Profumo, etc. Then I was bitterly disappointed by Wilson's promise of "white heat etc." What we got was nationalisation, stagnation, inflation, and devaluation. So in the 70s I joined the Liberal Party and was an active, not sleeping, member. In favour of joining the EEC, PR, etc. But in the 80s I became disillusioned by Liberal duplicity and ceased to have any political allegiance and nothing has convinced me since to support any political party. I also became dissatisfied with EEC membership, although Thatcher kept me "on board" with negotiating the rebate. During the 90s I learnt about the duplicity of other countries in the EEC cheating on rules, taking out more than they were putting in, the whole set up rigged to benefit Germany, France, and Belgium plus handouts to new members like Spain at UK expense. I have quoted on the MB in the past the double standards on issues like safety and electrical regulations. To be fair to Merkel she did clean up Germany's cheating on regulations while she was in power, but we still got examples like "dieselgate", so when she talked about ensuring a "level playing field" I just laughed. In 00s I chaired a European committee and despaired at how the UK was being taken to the cleaners with growing trade deficit, declining industry, etc. I've posted it all before. So when it came to setting up the Euro, Maastricht Treaty, with creation of the EU, and EU law and courts taking precedence over UK institutions, I decided enough was enough. The warnings of Benn, Shaw, Castle, and the right wing such as Powell had come to pass. I believe the people of the country should have the right/ability to remove those people who govern them. I believe Benn was right that the people appoint politicians to rule and not hand over the rule making to others which is very dangerous for democracy. I believe those that support EU membership are blind to the dangers to democracy of having a commission who only draft legislation in one direction and are seeking to centralise all power. I was amazed when Leave won the referendum, but my delight turned to anger when politicians, bankers, CBI, former PMs, Speaker, etc. all tried to undermine and overturn the decision of the people. I have an open mind. I have changed it in the past as I learned from experience and events; I could change my mind again. It is only bigots that can't change their mind. But everything that has happened since 2016 including the behaviour of politicians, the EU, the rabid media (both sides), etc. has confirmed in my mind the decision in 2016 was correct. Thank God we did not get embroiled in EU vaccine procurement policy, which I'm convinced Cameron would have done if he had won the referendum. Thank God we are not embroiled in the EU pandemic recovery plan which effectively locks countries into EU membership and is on the road to fiscal union. Yes, the young are wrong to favour EU membership. I was young once and was one of them, but I grew up. I was not the only one to vote leave. The only region of England to vote remain was London. In the region I live the only people to vote remain were Harrogate. If Scotland or NI want to take a different course of action, that's up to them, just don't expect England to pay for it. Just to save me reading all that is there actually anything in it you haven't told us before? I got as far as 'like Liz Truss' and that was enough for me.
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Post by wannabee on Sept 6, 2022 18:52:39 GMT
Possibly not many to defend it. An estimated 73% of people under 25 (which would be the under 31 now) voted Remain. fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/No-one born this century got to vote. As an aside I do recall Mr Coke telling me in one of our exchanges that in years to come young people would come to be grateful to him for his wisdom in voting Leave 😁 Quite correct. Like Truss I have been on a "journey" of moulding opinion as I grew older. As a boy I was brought up under Tory rule, Suez, Profumo, etc. Then I was bitterly disappointed by Wilson's promise of "white heat etc." What we got was nationalisation, stagnation, inflation, and devaluation. So in the 70s I joined the Liberal Party and was an active, not sleeping, member. In favour of joining the EEC, PR, etc. But in the 80s I became disillusioned by Liberal duplicity and ceased to have any political allegiance and nothing has convinced me since to support any political party. I also became dissatisfied with EEC membership, although Thatcher kept me "on board" with negotiating the rebate. During the 90s I learnt about the duplicity of other countries in the EEC cheating on rules, taking out more than they were putting in, the whole set up rigged to benefit Germany, France, and Belgium plus handouts to new members like Spain at UK expense. I have quoted on the MB in the past the double standards on issues like safety and electrical regulations. To be fair to Merkel she did clean up Germany's cheating on regulations while she was in power, but we still got examples like "dieselgate", so when she talked about ensuring a "level playing field" I just laughed. In 00s I chaired a European committee and despaired at how the UK was being taken to the cleaners with growing trade deficit, declining industry, etc. I've posted it all before. So when it came to setting up the Euro, Maastricht Treaty, with creation of the EU, and EU law and courts taking precedence over UK institutions, I decided enough was enough. The warnings of Benn, Shaw, Castle, and the right wing such as Powell had come to pass. I believe the people of the country should have the right/ability to remove those people who govern them. I believe Benn was right that the people appoint politicians to rule and not hand over the rule making to others which is very dangerous for democracy. I believe those that support EU membership are blind to the dangers to democracy of having a commission who only draft legislation in one direction and are seeking to centralise all power. I was amazed when Leave won the referendum, but my delight turned to anger when politicians, bankers, CBI, former PMs, Speaker, etc. all tried to undermine and overturn the decision of the people. I have an open mind. I have changed it in the past as I learned from experience and events; I could change my mind again. It is only bigots that can't change their mind. But everything that has happened since 2016 including the behaviour of politicians, the EU, the rabid media (both sides), etc. has confirmed in my mind the decision in 2016 was correct. Thank God we did not get embroiled in EU vaccine procurement policy, which I'm convinced Cameron would have done if he had won the referendum. Thank God we are not embroiled in the EU pandemic recovery plan which effectively locks countries into EU membership and is on the road to fiscal union. Yes, the young are wrong to favour EU membership. I was young once and was one of them, but I grew up. I was not the only one to vote leave. The only region of England to vote remain was London. In the region I live the only people to vote remain were Harrogate. If Scotland or NI want to take a different course of action, that's up to them, just don't expect England to pay for it. I got to the first Paragraph which was Tory Rule - Check, Suez - Incompetence and overreacting UK Capability followed by humiliation, Check, Profumo - Tory Sleaze including potential Security Breach with Russian Spy's*, Check As my Bingo Card was full I had no reason to read further *While writing this I found it slightly amusing that while Corbyn was demonised The most famous Spy's uncovered were a bunch of Posh Boys from Cambridge, The Queens Cousin (who wasn't Prosecuted) All hiding in plain sight. History I guess will judge Boris's relationship with Lebedev, the son of former KGB Boss
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Post by 4372 on Sept 6, 2022 21:32:34 GMT
The Tony Benn I remember was a great fan of nationalisation. He also split the Labour Party after 1975 with the idea of leaving the Common Market without a referendum....
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 7, 2022 8:01:04 GMT
We now have the very right wing, free marketeer brexiteer ERG in government. If they cannot make Brexit the resounding success as they sold it to us then nobody can.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 11, 2022 16:20:48 GMT
Sunlit uplands
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 11, 2022 17:06:34 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 11, 2022 17:07:43 GMT
The only barrier is Brexit.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 11, 2022 17:26:21 GMT
This could be a gamechanger Anastasia's british touring drummer being blocked by brexit a huge moment in the movement to rejoin the EU............
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Post by toppercorner on Sept 11, 2022 17:29:43 GMT
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