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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 25, 2022 12:18:04 GMT
So what's the solution? At this time of year, the beginning of the UK school holidays, there is always pressure on the crossings , obviously, pre and post Brexit. It is also a time when the French have chosen to " take action" when they have an industrial dispute, to cause maximum impact, especially pre Brexit, but leaving that aside, obviously, in this post Brexit adjustment period it is taking longer to make the crossing. Whether that is deliberately political and / or an obvious direct consequence of Brexit, isn't the immediate question,in my opinion. The question is , given our new relationship with France, what is the solution? Rejoin the EU. Or Change the physical infrastructure of the crossing points and / or for the French to increase the personnel , just at peak times , to alleviate the backlog. Why should they do this? That's perhaps a question for the French, of course they don't have to. A further solution could be for UK holiday makers to realise that the end of July is a peak time and either delay their journeys or to find alternative destinations or routes? Are there other solutions, or are we not really interested in solutions? Or we could join the EEA. You never include that as a third option.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 25, 2022 12:19:05 GMT
They have to blame something, and it can't be Brexit. No ,Blame the UK citizens for voting for it. They voted to leave the EU in the referendum, not for the Brexit deal Johnson struck and certainly not to now try and undo the brexit deal he struck.
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Post by cvillestokie on Jul 25, 2022 12:38:19 GMT
No ,Blame the UK citizens for voting for it. They voted to leave the EU in the referendum, not for the Brexit deal Johnson struck and certainly not to now try and undo the brexit deal he struck. Didn’t Boris force an early election to get extra votes for Brexit? That was one of his major talking points.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 25, 2022 12:59:02 GMT
They voted to leave the EU in the referendum, not for the Brexit deal Johnson struck and certainly not to now try and undo the brexit deal he struck. Didn’t Boris force an early election to get extra votes for Brexit? That was one of his major talking points. Yes. So why is he now trying to resile from the amazing oven ready deal he was elected because of?
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jul 25, 2022 13:05:28 GMT
'Technological solutions'
Not heard about these for a while.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 13:45:56 GMT
No ,Blame the UK citizens for voting for it. They voted to leave the EU in the referendum, not for the Brexit deal Johnson struck and certainly not to now try and undo the brexit deal he struck. So the issue isn't Brexit, it is the existing and future relationship with the EU and European countries.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 25, 2022 14:42:55 GMT
They voted to leave the EU in the referendum, not for the Brexit deal Johnson struck and certainly not to now try and undo the brexit deal he struck. So the issue isn't Brexit, it is the existing and future relationship with the EU and European countries. Yes, which wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t for brexit.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 25, 2022 14:53:49 GMT
I know you'll say these polls don't mean anything, only one vote really mattered, that you don't believe they are representative, all the usual stuff you've said before, so let's spare ourselves that at least! But there you go, buyers' remorse. It's not a huge surprise to me. Brexit was something older generations did to the young. The Brexit margin has probably died off already and I doubt those who've turned 18 since are taking a victory lap over blue passports and worse finances.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 14:59:13 GMT
So the issue isn't Brexit, it is the existing and future relationship with the EU and European countries. Yes, which wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t for brexit. Not from a Remainers perspective, others may think differently
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 15:57:20 GMT
Thank you Wannabee. Incidentally which independent polls refer to buyer remorse? I think after any seismic event, such as Brexit, there may be people who question or reconsider past decisions. Personally I have not come across this in any significant numbers in respect of Brexit, despite being told so by Remainers. The point of my post really irrespective of the causes of the issue was.... what is the solution?....accept peak time queues and put up with it? This gives a good indication of buyers' remorse. It's all the polls that have been carried out since the vote in June 2016. Time was always going to be necessary for people to see the balance of the realities of Brexit, and perhaps to get over their reluctance to accept that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the right thing to have done. With the odd, small anomaly, the results of all that polling shows a direction of travel that has been pretty consistent and appears to be getting more apparent the further we get from the referendum and the clearer and more obvious the impacts become. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I know you'll say these polls don't mean anything, only one vote really mattered, that you don't believe they are representative, all the usual stuff you've said before, so let's spare ourselves that at least! But there you go, buyers' remorse. I don't think it does Red. I've had a good perusal. It is a collaboration of polls over the time specified. I can't find a single poll that specifically asked Leavers like yourself who have shown remorse a d changed theirinds. They are generally polls in which I can't find much info on sample selection.....I'm not convinced many Leavers could be bothered to take part in such research....Remainers are more motivated to continue their never ending crusade to prove that they were right and Leavers wrong. Still if it dies make you feel better to " know" that you've won the argument, despite losing the vote good for you. Polls have been notoriously wrong in any case. Anyway I'm sure some people regret voting for Blair, but that's history. What I don't understand, perhaps you could enlighten me.....If the left have been proved right in respect of Boris and the Tories thus giving Labour ( not necessarily the same thing) a good chance in 2024 ( if we get that far) , why doesn't a party come forward on a ' rejoin the EU ' ticket. Seriously. If so many Leavers have changed their mind, surely that is an absolute sure fire winner. We could rejoin and this time do it properly, join the Euro, Free movement/ Schengen etc ..a new wave of Euro enthusiasm and all our problems will be solved. We could even elect some MEPs who believe in the project. Why not?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 25, 2022 16:43:58 GMT
Yes, which wouldn’t be an issue if it wasn’t for brexit. Not from a Remainers perspective, others may think differently So are you really saying there would be the same level of immigration and customs checks to enter France or to bring goods to France to sell when we were in the EU as there is now? Are you really saying that on the referendum paper a vote for leave was a vote for the deal Johnson struck, and then simultaneously a vote to try and wriggle out of that deal in breach of international law 2 years later? Come on BJR, i know you wanted brexit but that surely doesn’t mean you are going to completely deny reality. Nobody voted for the mess we are in now at the referendum. Solutions are to rejoin, join a trading group which is part of the customs union, strike a new deal, stick to the deal we have and live with it being rubbish, or invoke article 16 of the treaty and fight in the court. The other option that the government are pursuing is breaching international law and being taken to court and losing (else they would be using article 16 but they cannot because their position is not legally sound), severely damaging our relationship with our closest allies in the process, all to try and make brexit an issue again at the next election so the tories can try to cling to power. I don’t think we should rejoin. We need to move forward. But our government is desperate not to because they think they can use brexit to win another election.
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Post by foster on Jul 25, 2022 16:49:45 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now.
Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in.
The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 16:55:02 GMT
"Nobody voted for the mess we are in now at the referendum"
Correct , the vote was about being in or out of the EU.......people chose not to be part of it...we have debated this before.
We have now left, so the challenge is to do the best for the country, not to keep lamenting the decision.
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Post by xchpotter on Jul 25, 2022 16:57:40 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now. Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in. The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere. Hear hear, but some are like a dog with a bone unfortunately.
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Post by ohbottom on Jul 25, 2022 16:58:35 GMT
Good news. I wonder what happened to fix the problem. A) Brexit issues resolved Or B) Appropriate staffing on border controls Or C) Far fewer cars crossing the channel on Mondays?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 25, 2022 16:59:39 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now. Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in. The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere. It's quite ironic isn't it ... we've had years of Brexiteers telling Remoaners to stop whining and accept the Brexit deal, but actually, in the end, we now have Brexiteers whining their bag off because they've come to the conclusion, that they in fact, don't actually like the Brexit deal either. There's a saying about having made your bed ...
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Post by tuum on Jul 25, 2022 17:26:04 GMT
I read a leader article in the telegraph (I think it was from Sunday) that stated quite clearly that the problem with the NI protocol is down to the EU. Make of that what you will.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 25, 2022 17:27:38 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now. Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in. The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere. It's quite ironic isn't it ... we've had years of Brexiteers telling Remoaners to stop whining and accept the Brexit deal, but actually, in the end, we now have Brexiteers whining their bag off because they've come to the conclusion, that they in fact, don't actually like the Brexit deal either. There's a saying about having made your bed ... And it'd be lovely if there were no negative consequences of Brexit, but unfortunately, if you are going to have a news reporting media, it's somewhat inevitable that things like NI, staffing problems, trade and economic issues etc that are made worse by it need reporting. You can argue that the reporting is over the top. I'd argue that the BBC, at least, tries its damnedest to avoid mentioning the B word at all costs! In reality, that's just about the only way to pretend that Brexit hasn't been a bad move for the country.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 25, 2022 17:33:14 GMT
I read a leader article in the telegraph (I think it was from Sunday) that stated quite clearly that the problem with the NI protocol is down to the EU. Make of that what you will. When it comes to Brexit, the only bit of the Telegraph you can generally put faith in is the Financial section, the rest of it is broadly supportive propaganda. It's quite amusing, sometimes the financial section completely contradicts the main body of the paper on Brexit. I assume because the editorial of that section knows full well that you can't pull the wool over the eyes of industry leaders, City operators and hedge fund managers in the way that you probably can with ordinary largely elderly Tory supporters reading the body of the paper.
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Post by foster on Jul 25, 2022 17:41:50 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now. Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in. The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere. It's quite ironic isn't it ... we've had years of Brexiteers telling Remoaners to stop whining and accept the Brexit deal, but actually, in the end, we now have Brexiteers whining their bag off because they've come to the conclusion, that they in fact, don't actually like the Brexit deal either. There's a saying about having made your bed ... Still, I don't think you can blame voters for the information they were given on both sides. The politicians are to blame for whatever situation we're in. The focus should be on improving the current situation. Not blaming voters, or France or the EU. None of whom are an actual enemy...regardless of how some try to portray them.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 25, 2022 17:52:40 GMT
This gives a good indication of buyers' remorse. It's all the polls that have been carried out since the vote in June 2016. Time was always going to be necessary for people to see the balance of the realities of Brexit, and perhaps to get over their reluctance to accept that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the right thing to have done. With the odd, small anomaly, the results of all that polling shows a direction of travel that has been pretty consistent and appears to be getting more apparent the further we get from the referendum and the clearer and more obvious the impacts become. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I know you'll say these polls don't mean anything, only one vote really mattered, that you don't believe they are representative, all the usual stuff you've said before, so let's spare ourselves that at least! But there you go, buyers' remorse. I don't think it does Red. I've had a good perusal. It is a collaboration of polls over the time specified. I can't find a single poll that specifically asked Leavers like yourself who have shown remorse a d changed theirinds. They are generally polls in which I can't find much info on sample selection.....I'm not convinced many Leavers could be bothered to take part in such research....Remainers are more motivated to continue their never ending crusade to prove that they were right and Leavers wrong. Still if it dies make you feel better to " know" that you've won the argument, despite losing the vote good for you. Polls have been notoriously wrong in any case. Anyway I'm sure some people regret voting for Blair, but that's history. What I don't understand, perhaps you could enlighten me.....If the left have been proved right in respect of Boris and the Tories thus giving Labour ( not necessarily the same thing) a good chance in 2024 ( if we get that far) , why doesn't a party come forward on a ' rejoin the EU ' ticket. Seriously. If so many Leavers have changed their mind, surely that is an absolute sure fire winner. We could rejoin and this time do it properly, join the Euro, Free movement/ Schengen etc ..a new wave of Euro enthusiasm and all our problems will be solved. We could even elect some MEPs who believe in the project. Why not? As I said previously i can't see another vote anytime soon but here are some Polls which are likely to be of Academic Interest only www.ipsos.com/en-uk/almost-half-britons-say-brexit-has-made-their-daily-life-worse-1-3-say-it-has-made-littlewww.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/
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Post by 4372 on Jul 25, 2022 17:58:01 GMT
Think people on both sides really need to get over Brexit now. Should he looking forward to making the best out of whatever situation we're now in. The blame game has become tedious and doesn't achieve anything other than waste time and effort that should be placed elsewhere. I couldn't fail to disagree less....
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 25, 2022 18:00:15 GMT
It's quite ironic isn't it ... we've had years of Brexiteers telling Remoaners to stop whining and accept the Brexit deal, but actually, in the end, we now have Brexiteers whining their bag off because they've come to the conclusion, that they in fact, don't actually like the Brexit deal either. There's a saying about having made your bed ... Still, I don't think you can blame voters for the information they were given on both sides. The politicians are to blame for whatever situation we're in. The focus should be on improving the current situation. Not blaming voters, or France or the EU. None of whom are an actual enemy...regardless of how some try to portray them. The politicians absolutely are to blame and the thing is, it's not going to stop anytime soon. Johnson needed to 'get Brexit done' quickly and that express aim at the time, was more important to him than the actual expediency of any deal. Regardless of what issues might be created further down the line, he was prepared to sign off on pretty much anything, so that, he could claim that he'd got Brexit over the line. Well we're now down that line and it's looking pretty grim. Many people believe that Johnson knew when he signed the deal that he was always going to break it in a couple of years and he just didn't care because he, at the end of the day, could of course, always blame Europe at that stage anyway. It's Johnson's MO isn't it? Say whatever is necessary at the time and worry about the consequences later. Well here we are, he DIDN'T get Brexit done and unfortunately, we're going to be still talking/arguing about it, for many years to come.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 25, 2022 18:13:56 GMT
I have generally kept out of the debate on the reasons for port congestion apart from pointing out yesterday it was over very quickly. As bjr has pointed there have been congestion and delays in the EU membership years, often because of French industrial action, usually by lorry drivers. It has been pointed out that there is a huge number of people this year trying to get away with schools breaking up because they were unable to in 20 and 21. I'm sure increased red tape as a result Brexit has also contributed and someone I know also said they were declining to use the ferry company that sacked a lot of employees. I'm confident things will settle down and we will all get matters sorted out to our mutual benefit. There is another factor that I've not seen mentioned which is that UK exports of goods to the EU are at all time record levels. We all remember the queues of lorries in December 2021 trying to move goods before the year end in case there was no trade agreement with the EU. Goods exports are higher now. www.mic-cust.com/insights/posts/detail/ad/uk-exports-to-eu-reach-highest-level-on-record/I am a supporter of Brexit and not moaning. I fully expected difficulties and expect it will take years to sort things out. Considering we have had a pandemic and there is a European war, I think things are going quite well, as I have repeatedly pointed out in my reviews. (The last one was on page 1,464, the next will be 3rd week in August on 2022 Quarter 2 performance.) I am old enough to remember the difficulties when the UK joined the EEC, and can still remember the fights in the aisles of Tesco over bags of sugar that was in short supply. In a few years time when we have loads more trade agreements in place with the rest of the world, Britain will be booming, assuming we are not embroiled in pandemics, war, floods, wild fires, other weather extremes, etc. We need to be resolute in stopping Putin because if he is allowed to get away with his expansion into Georgia and Ukraine, China will follow suit in the far east.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 25, 2022 18:18:10 GMT
I read a leader article in the telegraph (I think it was from Sunday) that stated quite clearly that the problem with the NI protocol is down to the EU. Make of that what you will. It's almost as if the Torygraph have discovered the perfect solution to the problem in that EU should just agree with every UK requested change to the Agreement UK/EU signed just over a year ago and everything would be jake, Genius As Red90 says above "Technological Solutions" ... which don't exist, are now back on the table This was discussed ad nauseum from UK side saying they can be developed, from EU side OK but they don't exist now and are not in operation at any Border Crossing in the World. This then provoked Johnson to opine that it was no different to Congestion charge between Camden and Westminster. I swear it's like trying to have a logical discussion with my wife.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 18:23:50 GMT
I don't think it does Red. I've had a good perusal. It is a collaboration of polls over the time specified. I can't find a single poll that specifically asked Leavers like yourself who have shown remorse a d changed theirinds. They are generally polls in which I can't find much info on sample selection.....I'm not convinced many Leavers could be bothered to take part in such research....Remainers are more motivated to continue their never ending crusade to prove that they were right and Leavers wrong. Still if it dies make you feel better to " know" that you've won the argument, despite losing the vote good for you. Polls have been notoriously wrong in any case. Anyway I'm sure some people regret voting for Blair, but that's history. What I don't understand, perhaps you could enlighten me.....If the left have been proved right in respect of Boris and the Tories thus giving Labour ( not necessarily the same thing) a good chance in 2024 ( if we get that far) , why doesn't a party come forward on a ' rejoin the EU ' ticket. Seriously. If so many Leavers have changed their mind, surely that is an absolute sure fire winner. We could rejoin and this time do it properly, join the Euro, Free movement/ Schengen etc ..a new wave of Euro enthusiasm and all our problems will be solved. We could even elect some MEPs who believe in the project. Why not? As I said previously i can't see another vote anytime soon but here are some Polls which are likely to be of Academic Interest only www.ipsos.com/en-uk/almost-half-britons-say-brexit-has-made-their-daily-life-worse-1-3-say-it-has-made-littlewww.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/ The first ipsos poll had a sample of 1023 voters. It does not say how they were recruited. Base: 1,023 Online British adults aged 18-75, 23-25 June 2022, including Remain voters (441) and Leaver voters (389)
I don't think it is valid or reliable. Nor do I think polls are very reliable. I can't see a groundswell of Leave voters complaining, just Remainers not able to move on. Do you think we shoulsd rejoin?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 25, 2022 18:36:27 GMT
The first ipsos poll had a sample of 1023 voters. It does not say how they were recruited. Base: 1,023 Online British adults aged 18-75, 23-25 June 2022, including Remain voters (441) and Leaver voters (389)
I don't think it is valid or reliable. Nor do I think polls are very reliable. I can't see a groundswell of Leave voters complaining, just Remainers not able to move on. Do you think we shoulsd rejoin? I know you'll say these polls don't mean anything, only one vote really mattered, that you don't believe they are representative, all the usual stuff you've said before, so let's spare ourselves that at least! But there you go, buyers' remorse.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 25, 2022 18:37:37 GMT
I have generally kept out of the debate on the reasons for port congestion apart from pointing out yesterday it was over very quickly. As bjr has pointed there have been congestion and delays in the EU membership years, often because of French industrial action, usually by lorry drivers. It has been pointed out that there is a huge number of people this year trying to get away with schools breaking up because they were unable to in 20 and 21. I'm sure increased red tape as a result Brexit has also contributed and someone I know also said they were declining to use the ferry company that sacked a lot of employees. I'm confident things will settle down and we will all get matters sorted out to our mutual benefit. There is another factor that I've not seen mentioned which is that UK exports of goods to the EU are at all time record levels. We all remember the queues of lorries in December 2021 trying to move goods before the year end in case there was no trade agreement with the EU. Goods exports are higher now. www.mic-cust.com/insights/posts/detail/ad/uk-exports-to-eu-reach-highest-level-on-record/I am a supporter of Brexit and not moaning. I fully expected difficulties and expect it will take years to sort things out. Considering we have had a pandemic and there is a European war, I think things are going quite well, as I have repeatedly pointed out in my reviews. (The last one was on page 1,464, the next will be 3rd week in August on 2022 Quarter 2 performance.) I am old enough to remember the difficulties when the UK joined the EEC, and can still remember the fights in the aisles of Tesco over bags of sugar that was in short supply. In a few years time when we have loads more trade agreements in place with the rest of the world, Britain will be booming, assuming we are not embroiled in pandemics, war, floods, wild fires, other weather extremes, etc. We need to be resolute in stopping Putin because if he is allowed to get away with his expansion into Georgia and Ukraine, China will follow suit in the far east.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 25, 2022 18:43:31 GMT
The first ipsos poll had a sample of 1023 voters. It does not say how they were recruited. Base: 1,023 Online British adults aged 18-75, 23-25 June 2022, including Remain voters (441) and Leaver voters (389)
I don't think it is valid or reliable. Nor do I think polls are very reliable. I can't see a groundswell of Leave voters complaining, just Remainers not able to move on. Do you think we shoulsd rejoin? I know you'll say these polls don't mean anything, only one vote really mattered, that you don't believe they are representative, all the usual stuff you've said before, so let's spare ourselves that at least! But there you go, buyers' remorse. I don't know what you are getting at Red, You are prepared to believe anything as long as it makes you feel better. The poll in question asked a ridiculous 389 Leave voters, hardly can be extrapolated as representative of the population....we don't even know if they were telling the truth. Absolutely pointless....except to try to make you feel better.
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Post by foster on Jul 25, 2022 18:46:41 GMT
I don't know what you are getting at Red, You are prepared to believe anything as long as it makes you feel better. The poll in question asked a ridiculous 389 Leave voters, hardly can be extrapolated as representative of the population....we don't even know if they were telling the truth. Absolutely pointless....except to try to make you feel better. To be fair, most, if not all, polls posted on here are ridiculous in terms of the numbers of people polled or their demographics. 20k plus is prob the minimum that should be polled to give ANY kind of reliability, and even with that number I'd be skeptical based on who has conducted that poll.
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