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Post by partickpotter on Jun 24, 2022 10:18:11 GMT
Nope. Still illogical. Total drivel actually. Par for the course for you on Brexit. It’s a symptom of BDS, but don’t worry… it’s treatable. The recommended procedure is to withdraw your head from your arse. That might require a bit of effort, but you’ll feel better for it. You cannot follow logic Certainly can’t follow your “logic”.
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Post by muggleton on Jun 24, 2022 19:01:06 GMT
That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. It's great to get the perspecive of somebody on the ground, so to speak. My views expressed here are just that and are in no way meant to offend Brexit was essentially about English Nationalism and scant regard was given to the consequences of the Union. An interesting Article written just before the Referendum in my view is both foresightful and accurate as to the outcome in the event of a Yes Vote www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/18/england-eu-referendum-brexitOn the mainland very little discussion or debate was given over to the consequences to the Union Generally or NI in particular Some individuals that tried to raise the issue were dismissed as part of the general Project Fear Mob It did however very much exorcise those in the ROI and in NI. So much so that the ROI Government successfully lobied Brussels with US support to put the Land Border front and centre of Exit negotiations to be resolved before any Trade Discussions could commence This was compatable with the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement underpinned by membership of ECHR which UK Government adopted en block by passing the Human Rights Act 1998 Like all Peace Agreements their is compromise and to a certain extent fudge, but it was sufficient for Green, Orange or neither to consider themselves British, Irish or European. In my view the DUP has ill served its Community and has been spectacularly on the wrong side of the argument for the past 25 years on the important issues. It was the only party in NI to oppose the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. It was the only Party in NI to support and campaign for Brexit, When May foolishly called a General Election and it found itself holding the Balance of Power in UK Parliament It opposed May's UK wide "Backstop" solution which would have put NI in the same position as the rest of the UK which is their ideological stance. Oh no instead of saving face from supporting Brexit they instead feted Boris in Belfast who promised them something which he could never nor intended to deliver. The hypocrisy of the ideological stance is not lost on many when DUP have no problem being different to UK when it comes to Social Issues like Abortion, LGBT+ Rights etc and they use the "Petition of Concern" within the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement to Bloc the majority and moral opinion The Protocol is now the latest and real source of angst to the vast majority of Unionists in NI as its seen as a separation and being different to GB. A ladder needs to be built to allow the DUP to climb down from its current position. I cannot see this happening in the short term. Economically the Protocol gives NI a unique advantage to freely export to UK and EU and that economic Benefit is already filtering through. Businesses are beginning to tentatively voice positive notices about the Protocol but understandably they don't want to raise their heads too far above the precipice in a divided community Imports from UK are a "Real Problem " and are the heart of the Unionist angst, and rightly so. Truss's Red/Green Lanes would solve this and almost identically proposed by Sefcovic in October 2021. On the face of it then it could be resolved quite quickly and allow the DUP to claim a Victory, but no once again English Nationalism is preventing a solution because inextricably mixed in the Protocol is ECHR and State Aid Rules which impinges on GB so once again NI is being used as a pawn Longer term, I think you reluctantly due to inevitable demographics, me Idealogically favour a United Ireland You really only have to look at a map to see that it's logical. I would favour a VERY long lead in period. Perhaps a staged situation First by actually using the North /South Institutions that were set up under the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Farming particularly Dairy is an All ireland Economy. All of NI Electricity is supplied from ROI The Border Counties on both sides are entirely seemless Nevertheless we have seen with Brexit it is a blunt and polarising instrument. The convergence towards the centre as evidenced by Alliance results in recent Assembly Elections is most welcome and hopefully increase. The push towards more integrated Education is also to be welcomed. Health care on both sides is an issue and could be a source of deeper cooperation The only specialist Children's Hospital on either side is in Dublin and caters to all children on the island The New replacement hospital at a cost of €2B+ should be integrated into both health services David Ferhety is one of its biggest fund raisers A Referendum now of even within the next 5/10 years would only further polarise. Use North/South institutions to copperplate on matters of mutual interest and subliminally build trust Apologies for such a long post The DUP have a knack of being on the wrong side of history alright, and on Brexit I don't think many of them actually expected to win. They saw the Leave campaign as a free hit to wrap themselves in the flag without ever having to face the inevitable consequences of Brexit. The half a million bung of dodgy cash they got may also have been a factor. The DUP are also increasingly out of kilter with their own electorate, who are more liberal and socially progressive than the staid old bigots who still dominate the party. But I agree they do need to be helped out of the self-inflicted mess they're in. So there'll be some cosmetic tweaks to the Protocol, more cash from London and enough warm (empty) words re the union to get the show back on the road. Cross border cooperation happens now as a matter of course in a way that'd be unthinkable when I was growing up, and only a minority of headbangers on the unionist extremes would like to roll this progress back. They won't win, and ironically the Brexit they hoped would harden the Irish border has come back to bite them.
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Post by muggleton on Jun 24, 2022 19:08:41 GMT
That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. It is not a given that a United Ireland would lead to a return to open violence....so perhaps that is the way forward. Obviously the Unionists would not be happy, may feel betrayed and may go on to suffer from being a minority in a country in which they would be symbols and representative of previous oppressors...but unfortunately that may be the inevitable cost of "English" imperialism.....unless the EU ( which seems to be the answer to most issues) can solve the problem. The way forward is outlined in the Good Friday Agreement: a referendum on constitutional change if the Sec of State believes there is a majority in favour of unity. If unity is to happen, it has to be that way.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 20:11:32 GMT
Certainly can’t follow your “logic”. No, if you tell which part you are having trouble with I can try to help. But you completely undermine your point that the EU is supposedly prejudiced against non-EU people for immigration if you cannot understand that you must therefore think britain is prejudiced against non-brits with our immigration policy. A 10 year old could understand the logic.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 24, 2022 20:23:21 GMT
Certainly can’t follow your “logic”. No, if you tell which part you are having trouble with I can try to help. But you completely undermine your point that the EU is supposedly prejudiced against non-EU people for immigration if you cannot understand that you must therefore think britain is prejudiced against non-brits with our immigration policy. A 10 year old could understand the logic. The EU prejudices in favour of “white” European countries at the expense of “black” African countries. Britain treats European countries the same as African (or Asian, or American for that matter) the same.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 24, 2022 20:54:22 GMT
No, if you tell which part you are having trouble with I can try to help. But you completely undermine your point that the EU is supposedly prejudiced against non-EU people for immigration if you cannot understand that you must therefore think britain is prejudiced against non-brits with our immigration policy. A 10 year old could understand the logic. The EU prejudices in favour of “white” European countries at the expense of “black” African countries. Britain treats European countries the same as African (or Asian, or American for that matter) the same. What utter tosh, the entry requirements to either visit or work in EU or UK are almost exactly the same Entry requirements to enter UK visaguide.world/europe/uk-visa/who-needs-uk-visa/Entry requirements to enter EU www.google.com/amp/s/europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/work-abroad/work-permits/indexamp_en.htmFill your boots and tell me where they differ
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 24, 2022 21:16:15 GMT
You are quicker to comment than you are to think. Try reading and understanding what is written.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 21:45:10 GMT
No, if you tell which part you are having trouble with I can try to help. But you completely undermine your point that the EU is supposedly prejudiced against non-EU people for immigration if you cannot understand that you must therefore think britain is prejudiced against non-brits with our immigration policy. A 10 year old could understand the logic. The EU prejudices in favour of “white” European countries at the expense of “black” African countries. Britain treats European countries the same as African (or Asian, or American for that matter) the same. Aren’t we a predominately white European country? We are not in the EU. What about Ukraine? Or the many others? What about white non-European countries? All treated like African, Asian, American countries by the EU. So where is this racism you referred to? Applying your logic, what does that make us who favours brits over all other nations? Are we therefore prejudiced (or racist in the way you are alleging) because of it?
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Post by wannabee on Jun 24, 2022 21:56:23 GMT
You are quicker to comment than you are to think. Try reading and understanding what is written. OK so you don't have an explanation for the bollocks you wrote
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 24, 2022 22:00:43 GMT
You are quicker to comment than you are to think. Try reading and understanding what is written. OK so you don't have an explanation for the bollocks you wrote He rarely does. He was busy claiming the USD GBP exchange rate was 2.02 in Oct 2018 recently!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2022 23:28:32 GMT
It is not a given that a United Ireland would lead to a return to open violence....so perhaps that is the way forward. Obviously the Unionists would not be happy, may feel betrayed and may go on to suffer from being a minority in a country in which they would be symbols and representative of previous oppressors...but unfortunately that may be the inevitable cost of "English" imperialism.....unless the EU ( which seems to be the answer to most issues) can solve the problem. The way forward is outlined in the Good Friday Agreement: a referendum on constitutional change if the Sec of State believes there is a majority in favour of unity. If unity is to happen, it has to be that way. True, similar to a Scottish referendum being the gift of the Prime Minister,but perhaps a changing ( political and popular) climate and demographics will provide the pressure. Perhaps if a referendum is not willingly granted by the Secretsry of State it will be achieved through other means.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 25, 2022 1:25:28 GMT
The way forward is outlined in the Good Friday Agreement: a referendum on constitutional change if the Sec of State believes there is a majority in favour of unity. If unity is to happen, it has to be that way. True, similar to a Scottish referendum being the gift of the Prime Minister,but perhaps a changing ( political and popular) climate and demographics will provide the pressure. Perhaps if a referendum is not willingly granted by the Secretsry of State it will be achieved through other means. Muggleton gave you the technically correct and polite answer. However to achieve a peaceful transition it is a little bit more complex than that. A United Ireland is a certainty the only question is when can it be achieved with the least amount of upheaval and lets not be naive enough to rule out violence Technically a 50%÷1 vote in a Referendum would be enough to secure a United Ireland personally even though it is my desire for it to happen I would like to see it happen with a more convincing majority The current Demographics would indicate about 40% Republican/Catholic 40% Protestant/Loyalists and 20% neither although in realty the majority of neither would favour a United Ireland A Paradox inot generally understood is that not all Catholics would vote for a United Ireland and to a lesser extent not all Protestants would vote against a United Ireland On the face of it a Referendum immediately might just gain a majority but it would be as devisive as the Scottish (held too soon) and Brexit Referendums and if unsuccessful would put it back by 10 years+ as we see in Scotland The Catholic population is young and growing the Protestant population is aging and declining Within about 5 years the Demographics should switch from possibly now 5050 to at least 55/45 in favour of a United Ireland An Ignorent view generally held in England is that ROi is some backwater Country, it's not. It has the 4th highest GDP Per Capita in the World ahead of such Countries like Norway, UAE and Switzerland It also has a 50% higher GDP Per Capita than UK and 2 1/2 Times higher than NI The artificial State of NI set up just over 100 years ago was far more prosperous than ROI but it's sheer size,location, poor governance locally and from Westminster has seen it gradually decline and become dependent on handouts from Westminster Just like the Unification of East and West Germany was an expensive exercise so too will the Unification of Ireland to uplift the Per Capita of NI to ROI levels. I see no impediment to supports from US , EU and even GB who will be happy divest its obligations, even if it would never admit it. Ironically if not wrecked by ludicrous UK Government NI Protocol Bill will show NI within EU Single Market outperforming GB economically which will smooth transition towards a United Ireland Therefore from my point of view I'd like to see the discussions on a border poll to commence soon to explore the logistics etc with a view to have actual Referendum in 2027 This is perhaps idealistic as the most likely response from Unionists at it usually is is NO Therefore the alternative would be a sledgehammer Referendum in same 2027 and if Yes a Transition period same as Brexit for say 2 years Apologies again for long post
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Post by wannabee on Jun 25, 2022 1:30:41 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 25, 2022 4:32:36 GMT
OK so you don't have an explanation for the bollocks you wrote He rarely does. He was busy claiming the USD GBP exchange rate was 2.02 in Oct 2018 recently! Did I do a wee typo - I can’t recall. 2.02 in 2008. Although the context would have told you that. Then again, any opportunity to whine like a bitch and you grab it.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 25, 2022 4:34:10 GMT
You are quicker to comment than you are to think. Try reading and understanding what is written. OK so you don't have an explanation for the bollocks you wrote When it comes to posting bollocks fella you take the biscuit.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 25, 2022 4:34:44 GMT
The EU prejudices in favour of “white” European countries at the expense of “black” African countries. Britain treats European countries the same as African (or Asian, or American for that matter) the same. Aren’t we a predominately white European country? We are not in the EU. What about Ukraine? Or the many others? What about white non-European countries? All treated like African, Asian, American countries by the EU. So where is this racism you referred to? Applying your logic, what does that make us who favours brits over all other nations? Are we therefore prejudiced (or racist in the way you are alleging) because of it? Total jibberish.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 5:36:02 GMT
True, similar to a Scottish referendum being the gift of the Prime Minister,but perhaps a changing ( political and popular) climate and demographics will provide the pressure. Perhaps if a referendum is not willingly granted by the Secretsry of State it will be achieved through other means. Muggleton gave you the technically correct and polite answer. However to achieve a peaceful transition it is a little bit more complex than that. A United Ireland is a certainty the only question is when can it be achieved with the least amount of upheaval and lets not be naive enough to rule out violence Technically a 50%÷1 vote in a Referendum would be enough to secure a United Ireland personally even though it is my desire for it to happen I would like to see it happen with a more convincing majority The current Demographics would indicate about 40% Republican/Catholic 40% Protestant/Loyalists and 20% neither although in realty the majority of neither would favour a United Ireland A Paradox inot generally understood is that not all Catholics would vote for a United Ireland and to a lesser extent not all Protestants would vote against a United Ireland On the face of it a Referendum immediately might just gain a majority but it would be as devisive as the Scottish (held too soon) and Brexit Referendums and if unsuccessful would put it back by 10 years+ as we see in Scotland The Catholic population is young and growing the Protestant population is aging and declining Within about 5 years the Demographics should switch from possibly now 5050 to at least 55/45 in favour of a United Ireland An Ignorent view generally held in England is that ROi is some backwater Country, it's not. It has the 4th highest GDP Per Capita in the World ahead of such Countries like Norway, UAE and Switzerland It also has a 50% higher GDP Per Capita than UK and 2 1/2 Times higher than NI The artificial State of NI set up just over 100 years ago was far more prosperous than ROI but it's sheer size,location, poor governance locally and from Westminster has seen it gradually decline and become dependent on handouts from Westminster Just like the Unification of East and West Germany was an expensive exercise so too will the Unification of Ireland to uplift the Per Capita of NI to ROI levels. I see no impediment to supports from US , EU and even GB who will be happy divest its obligations, even if it would never admit it. Ironically if not wrecked by ludicrous UK Government NI Protocol Bill will show NI within EU Single Market outperforming GB economically which will smooth transition towards a United Ireland Therefore from my point of view I'd like to see the discussions on a border poll to commence soon to explore the logistics etc with a view to have actual Referendum in 2027 This is perhaps idealistic as the most likely response from Unionists at it usually is is NO Therefore the alternative would be a sledgehammer Referendum in same 2027 and if Yes a Transition period same as Brexit for say 2 years Apologies again for long post Of course future events cannot accuratelly be predicted, the events from 2016 onwards, Brexit, the Pandemic , Ukraine, the economic crisis have shown that. Domestically the Irish question and Scottish independence are obviously major issues. If independence is achieved I'd like to think every right minded person would accept it, without violence and that all parties concerned will make it work in good faith. The attempts to undermine the decision of Brexit, supported by the leadership all three major parties, let in someone who promised to " get Brexit done" and helped to cement Labour's current position of being in the wilderness. Ultimately it is entirely a decision for those entitled to vote, the vast,vast majority of whom do not need to listen to a campaign , having already got an unalterable position. In the case of Brexit many people already had an unalterable position when actually asked if they wanted political and economic union in a straightforward " in or out " referendum in which they were promised that their vote would count. Other than my last bit I am agreeing with you ( I think) and Muggleton's accurate and polite response.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2022 6:13:18 GMT
He rarely does. He was busy claiming the USD GBP exchange rate was 2.02 in Oct 2018 recently! Did I do a wee typo - I can’t recall. 2.02 in 2008. Although the context would have told you that. Then again, any opportunity to whine like a bitch and you grab it. Oh, lighten up a bit, partick! It's a beautiful day, down here at least, hope it's the same with you. Go up a munro or something, shake off some of that uptight attitude you display on here so often!
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2022 8:56:48 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Jun 25, 2022 10:49:00 GMT
OK so you don't have an explanation for the bollocks you wrote When it comes to posting bollocks fella you take the biscuit. You are very quick and contemptuous of posters that make a grammar or spelling mistake or make a posting you disagree with. A lot of the time you do this in a manner that tries to belittle the original poster and attempts to magnify, in your own mind, your superior intellect. Besides attacking the poster you try to trivialise the substance without adding anything to the debate. You posted a load of bollocks, you were called out and you can't handle it. Man up, admit when you've made a mistake, you may find it liberating rather than being angry with the World.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Jun 25, 2022 10:56:40 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Jun 25, 2022 12:32:25 GMT
He's been in the unfortunate position this week in Rwanda of been surrounded by the entire UK Political Press Corp Jeez he even gave a Car Crash Interview with Channel 4 He can't help himself, he tells lies as a matter of routine The impact of the Protocol, before being signed, was clearly spelt out to him and all Government Ministers. including Frosty The UK Government refused to release the Impact Assessment on this and the FTA although most of it has now been leaked It's routine to Release Impact Assessment on FTAs which they have done recently for Japan, New Zealand, Australia , South Korea etc Unsurprising what he is quoted as saying is not reality, he was told. He goes on to say to fix the problem he has taken unilateral action rather than renegotiate but its not a Political decision. You can fool some of the people etc
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Post by muggleton on Jun 25, 2022 16:50:48 GMT
Muggleton gave you the technically correct and polite answer. However to achieve a peaceful transition it is a little bit more complex than that. A United Ireland is a certainty the only question is when can it be achieved with the least amount of upheaval and lets not be naive enough to rule out violence Technically a 50%÷1 vote in a Referendum would be enough to secure a United Ireland personally even though it is my desire for it to happen I would like to see it happen with a more convincing majority The current Demographics would indicate about 40% Republican/Catholic 40% Protestant/Loyalists and 20% neither although in realty the majority of neither would favour a United Ireland A Paradox inot generally understood is that not all Catholics would vote for a United Ireland and to a lesser extent not all Protestants would vote against a United Ireland On the face of it a Referendum immediately might just gain a majority but it would be as devisive as the Scottish (held too soon) and Brexit Referendums and if unsuccessful would put it back by 10 years+ as we see in Scotland The Catholic population is young and growing the Protestant population is aging and declining Within about 5 years the Demographics should switch from possibly now 5050 to at least 55/45 in favour of a United Ireland An Ignorent view generally held in England is that ROi is some backwater Country, it's not. It has the 4th highest GDP Per Capita in the World ahead of such Countries like Norway, UAE and Switzerland It also has a 50% higher GDP Per Capita than UK and 2 1/2 Times higher than NI The artificial State of NI set up just over 100 years ago was far more prosperous than ROI but it's sheer size,location, poor governance locally and from Westminster has seen it gradually decline and become dependent on handouts from Westminster Just like the Unification of East and West Germany was an expensive exercise so too will the Unification of Ireland to uplift the Per Capita of NI to ROI levels. I see no impediment to supports from US , EU and even GB who will be happy divest its obligations, even if it would never admit it. Ironically if not wrecked by ludicrous UK Government NI Protocol Bill will show NI within EU Single Market outperforming GB economically which will smooth transition towards a United Ireland Therefore from my point of view I'd like to see the discussions on a border poll to commence soon to explore the logistics etc with a view to have actual Referendum in 2027 This is perhaps idealistic as the most likely response from Unionists at it usually is is NO Therefore the alternative would be a sledgehammer Referendum in same 2027 and if Yes a Transition period same as Brexit for say 2 years Apologies again for long post Of course future events cannot accuratelly be predicted, the events from 2016 onwards, Brexit, the Pandemic , Ukraine, the economic crisis have shown that. Domestically the Irish question and Scottish independence are obviously major issues. If independence is achieved I'd like to think every right minded person would accept it, without violence and that all parties concerned will make it work in good faith. The attempts to undermine the decision of Brexit, supported by the leadership all three major parties, let in someone who promised to " get Brexit done" and helped to cement Labour's current position of being in the wilderness. Ultimately it is entirely a decision for those entitled to vote, the vast,vast majority of whom do not need to listen to a campaign , having already got an unalterable position. In the case of Brexit many people already had an unalterable position when actually asked if they wanted political and economic union in a straightforward " in or out " referendum in which they were promised that their vote would count. Other than my last bit I am agreeing with you ( I think) and Muggleton's accurate and polite response. A paradox of Brexit is that it is going so badly that it simultaneously makes the case for a United Ireland more logical, while likely making the electorate more reluctant to vote for major constitutional change without the sort of detailed plan for unity that'll be very difficult to produce without broad cooperation (which won't happen). Relying on good faith from all sides is hopelessly naive also. The Brexit campaign wasn't conducted in good faith and any future Irish unity ref won't be either. We'd have been better off with no Brexit at all, but we are where we are and the current arrangement, with a few tweaks to the Protocol, has more support than any alternative for now. So agree those tweaks, help unionism out of it's self-inflicted bind, and get on with tackling the major problems of deprivation and division in NI society. And the case for a United Ireland has to be made on the practical benefits, weighed against the costs, with appropriate mitigations for the side who don't get their way. Not a promise that it's a panacea for multiple unconnected societal problems, therefore precisely the opposite to the Brexit campaign, then. People will be rightly sceptical of any promised unicorns in a United Ireland after the debacle of the last 6 years. I think that before we see a United Ireland referendum we're more likely to see a closer relationship between UK and EU, which would then facilitate an Independent Scotland while avoiding a land border. If Scotland becomes independent, the case for a United Ireland becomes stronger again. There's some interesting cooperation happening already between the administrations in Dublin, Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and will continue regardless of any future constitutional change. Will be fascinating to see how this develops.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 17:40:30 GMT
Of course future events cannot accuratelly be predicted, the events from 2016 onwards, Brexit, the Pandemic , Ukraine, the economic crisis have shown that. Domestically the Irish question and Scottish independence are obviously major issues. If independence is achieved I'd like to think every right minded person would accept it, without violence and that all parties concerned will make it work in good faith. The attempts to undermine the decision of Brexit, supported by the leadership all three major parties, let in someone who promised to " get Brexit done" and helped to cement Labour's current position of being in the wilderness. Ultimately it is entirely a decision for those entitled to vote, the vast,vast majority of whom do not need to listen to a campaign , having already got an unalterable position. In the case of Brexit many people already had an unalterable position when actually asked if they wanted political and economic union in a straightforward " in or out " referendum in which they were promised that their vote would count. Other than my last bit I am agreeing with you ( I think) and Muggleton's accurate and polite response. A paradox of Brexit is that it is going so badly that it simultaneously makes the case for a United Ireland more logical, while likely making the electorate more reluctant to vote for major constitutional change without the sort of detailed plan for unity that'll be very difficult to produce without broad cooperation (which won't happen). Relying on good faith from all sides is hopelessly naive also. The Brexit campaign wasn't conducted in good faith and any future Irish unity ref won't be either. We'd have been better off with no Brexit at all, but we are where we are and the current arrangement, with a few tweaks to the Protocol, has more support than any alternative for now. So agree those tweaks, help unionism out of it's self-inflicted bind, and get on with tackling the major problems of deprivation and division in NI society. And the case for a United Ireland has to be made on the practical benefits, weighed against the costs, with appropriate mitigations for the side who don't get their way. Not a promise that it's a panacea for multiple unconnected societal problems, therefore precisely the opposite to the Brexit campaign, then. People will be rightly sceptical of any promised unicorns in a United Ireland after the debacle of the last 6 years. I think that before we see a United Ireland referendum we're more likely to see a closer relationship between UK and EU, which would then facilitate an Independent Scotland while avoiding a land border. If Scotland becomes independent, the case for a United Ireland becomes stronger again. There's some interesting cooperation happening already between the administrations in Dublin, Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and will continue regardless of any future constitutional change. Will be fascinating to see how this develops. [br I'm not particularly entering the Brexit debate again. Brexit has happened. Whether you or anyone else thinks it was the correct decision isn't particularly something I need or want to debate ad infinitum so I will leave that to you and others. I'm very happy with my decision alongside the Tony Benn's, Claire Fox's, Corbyn's ,and Galloway's , you can side with the Cameron's and Osborne's, Heseltine's, and Blairs if you want. ....you can have the last word on this particular chapter.
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Post by muggleton on Jun 25, 2022 18:02:19 GMT
A paradox of Brexit is that it is going so badly that it simultaneously makes the case for a United Ireland more logical, while likely making the electorate more reluctant to vote for major constitutional change without the sort of detailed plan for unity that'll be very difficult to produce without broad cooperation (which won't happen). Relying on good faith from all sides is hopelessly naive also. The Brexit campaign wasn't conducted in good faith and any future Irish unity ref won't be either. We'd have been better off with no Brexit at all, but we are where we are and the current arrangement, with a few tweaks to the Protocol, has more support than any alternative for now. So agree those tweaks, help unionism out of it's self-inflicted bind, and get on with tackling the major problems of deprivation and division in NI society. And the case for a United Ireland has to be made on the practical benefits, weighed against the costs, with appropriate mitigations for the side who don't get their way. Not a promise that it's a panacea for multiple unconnected societal problems, therefore precisely the opposite to the Brexit campaign, then. People will be rightly sceptical of any promised unicorns in a United Ireland after the debacle of the last 6 years. I think that before we see a United Ireland referendum we're more likely to see a closer relationship between UK and EU, which would then facilitate an Independent Scotland while avoiding a land border. If Scotland becomes independent, the case for a United Ireland becomes stronger again. There's some interesting cooperation happening already between the administrations in Dublin, Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and will continue regardless of any future constitutional change. Will be fascinating to see how this develops. [br I'm not particularly entering the Brexit debate again. Brexit has happened. Whether you or anyone else thinks it was the correct decision isn't particularly something I need or want to debate ad infinitum so I will leave that to you and others. I'm very happy with my decision alongside the Tony Benn's, Claire Fox's, Corbyn's ,and Galloway's , you can side with the Cameron's and Osborne's, Heseltine's, and Blairs if you want. I don't see many Leavers complaining but plenty of Remainers....you can have the last word on this particular chapter. If Brexit was going even remotely well you'd be more open to talking about it, so your reticence is easy to understand. That's fine as far as it goes, but we can't meaningfully discuss potential future constitutional change in Ireland without reference to the massive change which has already happened via Brexit. The shadow of Brexit will loom over British (and Irish for that matter) politics for at least a generation, and ignoring it because it hasn't turned out as we hoped isn't going to make it go away.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 18:51:28 GMT
[br I'm not particularly entering the Brexit debate again. Brexit has happened. Whether you or anyone else thinks it was the correct decision isn't particularly something I need or want to debate ad infinitum so I will leave that to you and others. I'm very happy with my decision alongside the Tony Benn's, Claire Fox's, Corbyn's ,and Galloway's , you can side with the Cameron's and Osborne's, Heseltine's, and Blairs if you want. I don't see many Leavers complaining but plenty of Remainers....you can have the last word on this particular chapter. If Brexit was going even remotely well you'd be more open to talking about it, so your reticence is easy to understand. That's fine as far as it goes, but we can't meaningfully discuss potential future constitutional change in Ireland without reference to the massive change which has already happened via Brexit. The shadow of Brexit will loom over British (and Irish for that matter) politics for at least a generation, and ignoring it because it hasn't turned out as we hoped isn't going to make it go away. It's not about ignoring it. It's about recognising and coming to terms with it( which probably means different things to different people ) and making the most of it ( which probably means different things to different people). Not simply saying " look how bad Brexit was"....a bit pointless really, most people will simply agree or disagree dependant upon how they voted and why they voted as they did. The question facing the country and particularly in respect of ordinary people ( and I use that term deliberately) is what the country should do now, in respect of a very changing world. The real issue for those who can't come to terms with the fact that a small majority of those that voted did not want be part of a political and economic union with the EU,is What should " we" do now?" AND "how can that be achieved?"...particularly in light of the cartel of the political class. It is always easy to be a critic of those trying to do something, those in power....much harder to take responsibility and lead....I think Corbyn found that out.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 25, 2022 19:46:58 GMT
If Brexit was going even remotely well you'd be more open to talking about it, so your reticence is easy to understand. That's fine as far as it goes, but we can't meaningfully discuss potential future constitutional change in Ireland without reference to the massive change which has already happened via Brexit. The shadow of Brexit will loom over British (and Irish for that matter) politics for at least a generation, and ignoring it because it hasn't turned out as we hoped isn't going to make it go away. It's not about ignoring it. It's about recognising and coming to terms with it( which probably means different things to different people ) and making the most of it ( which probably means different things to different people). Not simply saying " look how bad Brexit was"....a bit pointless really, most people will simply agree or disagree dependant upon how they voted and why they voted as they did. The question facing the country and particularly in respect of ordinary people ( and I use that term deliberately) is what the country should do now, in respect of a very changing world. The real issue for those who can't come to terms with the fact that a small majority of those that voted did not want be part of a political and economic union with the EU,is What should " we" do now?" AND "how can that be achieved?"...particularly in light of the cartel of the political class. It is always easy to be a critic of those trying to do something, those in power....much harder to take responsibility and lead....I think Corbyn found that out. Brexit was sold on material benefits yet there are non. Now it's architechts can't even find any, all of a sudden it's some warm fuzzy feeling called soverignty whilst you're waving a union jack and singing rule britannia that makes the self harm a price worth paying. Hopefully the liars are fully punished at the ballot box.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 19:52:17 GMT
It's not about ignoring it. It's about recognising and coming to terms with it( which probably means different things to different people ) and making the most of it ( which probably means different things to different people). Not simply saying " look how bad Brexit was"....a bit pointless really, most people will simply agree or disagree dependant upon how they voted and why they voted as they did. The question facing the country and particularly in respect of ordinary people ( and I use that term deliberately) is what the country should do now, in respect of a very changing world. The real issue for those who can't come to terms with the fact that a small majority of those that voted did not want be part of a political and economic union with the EU,is What should " we" do now?" AND "how can that be achieved?"...particularly in light of the cartel of the political class. It is always easy to be a critic of those trying to do something, those in power....much harder to take responsibility and lead....I think Corbyn found that out. Brexit was sold on material benefits yet there are non. Now it's architechts can't even find any, all of a sudden it's some warm fuzzy feeling called soverignty whilst you're waving a union jack and singing rule britannia that makes the self harm a price worth paying. Hopefully the liars are fully punished at the ballot box. Not to me it wasn't, Remain was sold on fear and putting the plebs in their place , anyway its happened now. What should " we" do next. What do you think? No point in looking back forever. Oh and the " Liars" , the Tories, massively favoured ......Remain.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 25, 2022 19:59:53 GMT
Brexit was sold on material benefits yet there are non. Now it's architechts can't even find any, all of a sudden it's some warm fuzzy feeling called soverignty whilst you're waving a union jack and singing rule britannia that makes the self harm a price worth paying. Hopefully the liars are fully punished at the ballot box. Not to me it wasn't, Remain was sold on fear and putting the plebs in their place , anyway its happened now. What should " we" do next. No point in looking back forever. Sure it's improved your quality of life. "We" should do what we should have done after the referendum and compromise on what they called Norway. The behaviour on both sides after the referendum was ridiculous trying to trample the other into the ground.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 25, 2022 20:03:02 GMT
Brexit was sold on material benefits yet there are non. Now it's architechts can't even find any, all of a sudden it's some warm fuzzy feeling called soverignty whilst you're waving a union jack and singing rule britannia that makes the self harm a price worth paying. Hopefully the liars are fully punished at the ballot box. Not to me it wasn't, Remain was sold on fear and putting the plebs in their place , anyway its happened now. What should " we" do next. What do you think? No point in looking back forever. Oh and the " Liars" , the Tories, massively favoured ......Remain. Make no mistake this is a Brexit cult government. The adults were forced out.
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