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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 23, 2022 10:21:52 GMT
So, if by chance the UK was to rejoin the EU or the single market , what BREXIT BENEFIT would you miss most? The pound We’d have to join the euro So the Brexit Benefit you would miss most if we rejoined is something we wouldn't have even lost in the first place if we'd stayed? Love it.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 23, 2022 10:28:24 GMT
But every economic analysis of brexit is very negative. I know you will complain because at least one person working on the analysis will have voted remain, rendering the analysis invalid in your view. The financial reality is obvious to everyone who is not blinded by indoctrinated hatred of everything EU related That is just not true. Every analysis is seriously flawed if you examine them properly and not just read the headline. Lord Frost said yesterday that any view that Brexit is damaging the UK economy “cannot be supported by any objective analysis of the figures” and I have examined them and he is correct. This is a true most people are aware of the Rotterdam effect but last week I heard of a new one, previously if a company imported something from say China to sell in the EU it was counted as a uk export, now it classed as a Chinese export to the EU and hey presto uk exports are falling to the EU blah blah blah
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 23, 2022 11:13:27 GMT
We could "control" immigration before Brexit. Stop lying.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 23, 2022 11:15:06 GMT
But every economic analysis of brexit is very negative. I know you will complain because at least one person working on the analysis will have voted remain, rendering the analysis invalid in your view. The financial reality is obvious to everyone who is not blinded by indoctrinated hatred of everything EU related It's not an analysis it's a forecast at best you would after 2 years of covid forecasting people might be a bit more questioning. This tweet kind of sums up the approach of the pro EU organisations, its a very Covid like approach. So it's not okay to use forecasts, says the guy who keeps banging on about a forecast of how much it would cost the UK to stay in the EU. Cue some nonsense about your forecast being an analysis and so should be recognised.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 23, 2022 11:35:36 GMT
The pound We’d have to join the euro So the Brexit Benefit you would miss most if we rejoined is something we wouldn't have even lost in the first place if we'd stayed? Love it. But then I wouldn’t rejoin the eu And I would rip up the Northern Ireland protocol And let Dublin and Brussels know that if they give a fuck about the integrity of the single market Best they start checking goods after they’ve left Northern Ireland
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 23, 2022 11:42:31 GMT
It's not an analysis it's a forecast at best you would after 2 years of covid forecasting people might be a bit more questioning. This tweet kind of sums up the approach of the pro EU organisations, its a very Covid like approach. So it's not okay to use forecasts, says the guy who keeps banging on about a forecast of how much it would cost the UK to stay in the EU. Cue some nonsense about your forecast being an analysis and so should be recognised. Well if you insist lets compare, EU budget is known, £615m per week cost is based on UK contributing same % of budget as pre leaving, so yes thats a "forecast" or estimate based on assumptions of contributions whereas the report that says everyone is going to be £690 worse off or whatever is based on slightly broader assumptions I'd suggest, how to assess whether something is a covid impact or brexit impact for instance would tend to lead me to lend much weight to such forecastd from partizan organisations.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 23, 2022 11:49:03 GMT
So the Brexit Benefit you would miss most if we rejoined is something we wouldn't have even lost in the first place if we'd stayed? Love it. But then I wouldn’t rejoin the eu And I would rip up the Northern Ireland protocol And let Dublin and Brussels know that if they give a fuck about the integrity of the single market Best the start checking goods after they’ve left Northern Ireland You probably would but as you're not going to be in a position to it's something of a moot point. Must admit I've always thought much of the attraction of to many of Brexit was visceral rather than tangible. A nostalgia for the belligerent imperial days when we could just make up our own rules and tell other people what to do. And so it would seem. Still if you love your Pound so much I'm surprised you didn't want Remain. It would certainly be worth more if we had.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 23, 2022 12:09:36 GMT
But every economic analysis of brexit is very negative. I know you will complain because at least one person working on the analysis will have voted remain, rendering the analysis invalid in your view. The financial reality is obvious to everyone who is not blinded by indoctrinated hatred of everything EU related It's not an analysis it's a forecast at best you would after 2 years of covid forecasting people might be a bit more questioning. This tweet kind of sums up the approach of the pro EU organisations, its a very Covid like approach. So are you saying all the forecasts have been wrong, and that actually we are currently seeing some huge economic benefis from brexit!?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 23, 2022 12:14:33 GMT
But every economic analysis of brexit is very negative. I know you will complain because at least one person working on the analysis will have voted remain, rendering the analysis invalid in your view. The financial reality is obvious to everyone who is not blinded by indoctrinated hatred of everything EU related That is just not true. Every analysis is seriously flawed if you examine them properly and not just read the headline. Lord Frost said yesterday that any view that Brexit is damaging the UK economy “cannot be supported by any objective analysis of the figures” and I have examined them and he is correct. You are a conspiracy theorist if you truly believe “every analysis is seriously flawed”. Yes, economic predictions or analyses are never 100% accurate. But the majority get the trend right. And the trend is over the last 6 years very bad. Unless you think creating more costs, checks and delays on trade with our biggest trading partner is reducing costs (and all the businesses that say otherwise have got their own analyses wrong and the fact it costs them more is just an illusion!?).
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 23, 2022 12:37:46 GMT
We could "control" immigration before Brexit. Stop lying. OK to be technically correct we have ended freedom of movement of the EU article 21.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2022 12:37:57 GMT
That is just not true. Every analysis is seriously flawed if you examine them properly and not just read the headline. Lord Frost said yesterday that any view that Brexit is damaging the UK economy “cannot be supported by any objective analysis of the figures” and I have examined them and he is correct. You are a conspiracy theorist if you truly believe “every analysis is seriously flawed”. Yes, economic predictions or analyses are never 100% accurate. But the majority get the trend right. And the trend is over the last 6 years very bad. Unless you think creating more costs, checks and delays on trade with our biggest trading partner is reducing costs (and all the businesses that say otherwise have got their own analyses wrong and the fact it costs them more is just an illusion!?). Let's be honest, if you're relying on Lord Frost's analysis, the bloke who negotiated alongside Johnson to deliver the fantastic deal they were both crowing about just over 18 months ago but who now says his own deal doesn't work...it's not a strong look.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2022 13:27:22 GMT
We could "control" immigration before Brexit. Stop lying. OK to be technically correct we have ended freedom of movement of the EU article 21. To be technically correct we could only partially control immigration before Brexit. This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU. One of the moral benefits of Brexit is we therefore no longer favour predominantly white nations over nations that are predominantly non white.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 23, 2022 14:11:08 GMT
OK to be technically correct we have ended freedom of movement of the EU article 21. To be technically correct we could only partially control immigration before Brexit. This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU. One of the moral benefits of Brexit is we therefore no longer favour predominantly white nations over nations that are predominantly non white. Remind me, what race are people who are citizens of non-EU member states again? I didn’t realise that when we left the EU, every Brit changed race!?
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2022 14:22:59 GMT
To be technically correct we could only partially control immigration before Brexit. This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU. One of the moral benefits of Brexit is we therefore no longer favour predominantly white nations over nations that are predominantly non white. Remind me, what race are people who are citizens of non-EU member states again? I didn’t realise that when we left the EU, every Brit changed race!? You should really try and read what is written before you comment. You might come across as a little less stupid. Probably not though.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 23, 2022 14:40:17 GMT
OK to be technically correct we have ended freedom of movement of the EU article 21. To be technically correct we could only partially control immigration before Brexit. This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU. One of the moral benefits of Brexit is we therefore no longer favour predominantly white nations over nations that are predominantly non white. Completely incorrect. See Ukraine v Syria or Afghanistan.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 23, 2022 16:10:28 GMT
Remind me, what race are people who are citizens of non-EU member states again? I didn’t realise that when we left the EU, every Brit changed race!? You should really try and read what is written before you comment. You might come across as a little less stupid. Probably not though. You wrote: “ This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU.” I asked what race we were discriminating against? You brought up racism, I asked against which race. Simple question.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2022 16:37:08 GMT
You should really try and read what is written before you comment. You might come across as a little less stupid. Probably not though. You wrote: “ This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU.” I asked what race we were discriminating against? You brought up racism, I asked against which race. Simple question. It’s prejudiced against African and Asian nations. By definition.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2022 16:38:25 GMT
To be technically correct we could only partially control immigration before Brexit. This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU. One of the moral benefits of Brexit is we therefore no longer favour predominantly white nations over nations that are predominantly non white. Completely incorrect. See Ukraine v Syria or Afghanistan. A totally different point - but a point nevertheless. There is a difference though. The decision on treating refugees from Ukraine, Syria or Afghanistan differently is an ad hoc one ie decisions are made on a case by case basis. A different decision could be made. Freedom of Movement is a structural policy that differentiates between one group of countries and everyone else. No different decisions are possible - leastways as far as the group of countries are concerned.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 23, 2022 16:56:46 GMT
The Jury is out on whether Brexit will be positive or negative I agree with Mr Coke it will take several years to manifest itself one way or the other. In the short term its obviously not turning out as Brexiteers imagined witness the ludicrous report from Iain Duncan Smith and the Centre for Brexit Policy www.thetimes.co.uk/article/elite-prevent-uk-fulfilling-its-post-brexit-potential-9jbff5ms5The CBP a right-wing think tank formed by arch Brexiteers to identify the Benefits and Opportunities of Brexit This week their report concluded there aren't any because it is being hindered by Woke Whitehall Elites. They don't explain who these people are nor explain how having a Conservative Government in place for the last 12 years would allow it to happen The Government’s own Minister for Brexit Opportunities Rees-Mogg has only come up with more powerful Vacuum Cleaners What were the main arguments in favour of Brexit and I accept some were important to some people not all and they meant different things to different people In no particular order 1. Payments for membership of EU could be used to Fund the NHS (I'm not going to talk about the Bus) I understand Covid has had a dramatic effect on NHS and Treasury but the net result is that NI has increased to Fund the NHS and maybe later Social Care. 2. The Big prize was outside the EU we could conclude a Trade Deal with US, now its much farther away than before Referendum and other Countries Most previous EU Trade Deals have been rolled over so relatively neutral effect UK had recently recovered to pre Covid GDP levels but April and May declines of -0.1% and -0.3% if continued would become recession Time will tell if OECD forecast that UK will become an outlier in GDP performance becoming 19th out of 20 I'll address Trade a little more later 3. Whether your viewpoint was controlling Immigration or stopping Immigration it was a big issue. It couldn't be anything other when a prime mover for Referendum was pressure from UKIP on Conservatives. The posters of Turks lining up to enter UK leaned in to the trope What has happened to Immigration since Brexit. Well net migration to UK has continued to rise but instead of Immigrants fro Eastern Europe they now largely come from India, Nigeria and Philippines The Home Office has surprisingly done a good job to process Visa Applications as well as regularising EU Citizens entitled to remain in UK after Brexit. Brits residing in EU have for the most part been able to regularise their status So generally it's been a success Except in one area I'll address later ukandeu.ac.uk/immigration-after-brexit-one-year-on-changing-places/4. Sovereignty, it was never an issue for me it was for others. I'll let you decide whether we regained it or never lost it 5. Deregulation, especially in the City. Nothing much to say here as nothing much has happened. Recent rumbings indicate Rishi is anxious to remove much of the EU regulation brought in post 2008 Financial Crash. This would worry me a bit if it creates a laissez Faire attitude to regulation in the City. The Crash was caused not so much by lack of Regulation but failure by Regulators to enforce the Regulations We have seen recently that London is a magnet for Russian Oligarchs dirty money The British Overseas Territories are a similar magnet for hiding Drug Traffickers, Tax Dodgers, Criminal Assets etc with no transparency on the ultimate ownership of these shell Companies The promised Register is still far away. The City has lost its ability to trade EU Stock, extreme regulation changes could excellerate removal of Clearing Trillions of Derivatives In summary since Brexit UK has lost about 7500 jobs to new EU hums but Trillions of Funds but it hasn't been the extreme meltdown some predicted The future is very fluid For a more detailed viewpoint www.ft.com/content/f83ddf05-e7a1-4c9b-83ad-e82a54c71afaSome Unintended Consequences that are a byproduct of Brexit - Many Conservative Politicians spout that Asylum Seekers coming from France shouldn't be allowed as France is a Safe Country As a result of Brexit UK is no longer part of the Dublin 111 Regulation which allows one EU State to return an Asylum Seeker to another EU state if the Asylum Application should have been processed inthe original country of entry In 2020 Germany made 30,125 and France 30,024 Applications One caveat of the DR is that the applicant Country must make its application within 5 months of Asylum Seeker arriving. The useless Home Office was not up to this Task and in 2019 made 514 Applications
- As a result of Brexit UK no longer has access to Europol the Europe wide database which tracks the most serious criminals, drug and people traffickers etc Therefore say a simply "holiday visa" for a dangerous criminal without this information
- The most serious and reactionary policy being pursued (absent properly using Dublin 111) is the Rwanda Policy This should be fully tested in UK Courts (as the ECHR "requested " not "ruled") The Raab Bill of Rights Act ostensibly to overrule ECHR does nothing of the sort is is a pervasive Bill intended to be introduced with Parliamentary Debate or Scrutiny (so much for sovereignty) its intent is only to reduce the Rights of UK National. A bit like trying to square the conundrum of Irish Border many Conservatives would love to exit the ECHR whose establishment was Spearheaded by Winston Churchill It knows to do so would put it alongside Russia and Belarus as non members so it is trying and failing to introduce UK legislation to override The worst of both worlds
- The decision to choose a Hard Brexit under the FTA was a Political one. The continued policy of antagonism rather than closer cooperation with biggest trading partner (irrespective of what may happen in future)for mutual interest is just plain foolish. Medium and Large UK Companies have coped with additional red tape and logistics to export to EU but with additional Cost. Over 1/3 of small companies have stopped exporting to EU because it can't bear the cost. It limits their ability to become Medium Companies. EU Companies of course have an advantage as there are no restrictions on Imports into UK
- The UK signed a FTA with EU which was inextricably linked to The Protocol Whether the UK intends to see the full passage of NI Bill to Unilaterally override parts of the Protocol is moot. Changes to Protocol can only be resolved by negotiation This action undermines the stability of NI , further sours relationship with EU, sends a negative signal to prospective Trade Partners and weakens UKs International Soft Power reputation as an upholder of International Law
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2022 17:38:51 GMT
The Jury is out on whether Brexit will be positive or negative I agree with Mr Coke it will take several years to manifest itself one way or the other. I think you could reasonably have stopped that post after the first sentence.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 23, 2022 17:43:39 GMT
The Jury is out on whether Brexit will be positive or negative I agree with Mr Coke it will take several years to manifest itself one way or the other. I think you could reasonably have stopped that post after the first sentence. It was an encouraging start I have to say😉
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Post by 4372 on Jun 23, 2022 20:55:30 GMT
Excellent news today that Ukraine and Moldova have been accepted as fast track applicants to join the European Union. Congratulations to all concerned. To join a project that is centred around prosperity, progress, partnership and peace between all European people is a magnificent aim and achievement.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2022 21:04:59 GMT
Excellent news today that Ukraine and Moldova have been accepted as fast track applicants to join the European Union. Congratulations to all concerned. To join a project that is centred around prosperity, progress, partnership and peace between all European people is a magnificent aim and achievement. Strange that they seem to willingly want to join the "yoke of EU tyranny" copyright wagsastokie
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 7:24:17 GMT
https://www.tiktok.com/@socialistrachrants/video/7112547276907613446
Those are the benefits we were told leaving would bring. The reality is the opposite and everything has got worse since leaving.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 7:27:50 GMT
You wrote: “ This meant we had a racist immigration policy where we were prejudiced against people who came from countries that were not members of the EU.” I asked what race we were discriminating against? You brought up racism, I asked against which race. Simple question. It’s prejudiced against African and Asian nations. By definition. So it isn’t racism like you said it was. Let’s follow your logic though because now instead of being prejudiced against just non-EU citizens, we are prejudiced against all non-brits. So brexit has made us more prejudiced if we follow your logic.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 24, 2022 7:47:52 GMT
It’s prejudiced against African and Asian nations. By definition. So it isn’t racism like you said it was. Let’s follow your logic though because now instead of being prejudiced against just non-EU citizens, we are prejudiced against all non-brits. So brexit has made us more prejudiced if we follow your logic. I’m sorry I can’t follow your logic. It’s illogical.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 8:24:54 GMT
So it isn’t racism like you said it was. Let’s follow your logic though because now instead of being prejudiced against just non-EU citizens, we are prejudiced against all non-brits. So brexit has made us more prejudiced if we follow your logic. I’m sorry I can’t follow your logic. It’s illogical. I’ll hand hold you through it again. According to you, being in the EU means your immigration policy is prejudiced against non-EU citizens because they don’t have the same rights as EU citizens. Now we have left the EU, our immigration policy gives non-brits none of the same rights as brits, so the policy must therefore be prejudiced against all non-brits. There are more non-brits than non-EU citizens, therefore our current policy is prejudiced against more people than when we were in the EU.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 24, 2022 8:39:03 GMT
I’m sorry I can’t follow your logic. It’s illogical. I’ll hand hold you through it again. According to you, being in the EU means your immigration policy is prejudiced against non-EU citizens because they don’t have the same rights as EU citizens. Now we have left the EU, our immigration policy gives non-brits none of the same rights as brits, so the policy must therefore be prejudiced against all non-brits. There are more non-brits than non-EU citizens, therefore our current policy is prejudiced against more people than when we were in the EU. Nope. Still illogical. Total drivel actually. Par for the course for you on Brexit. It’s a symptom of BDS, but don’t worry… it’s treatable. The recommended procedure is to withdraw your head from your arse. That might require a bit of effort, but you’ll feel better for it.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 9:31:41 GMT
I’ll hand hold you through it again. According to you, being in the EU means your immigration policy is prejudiced against non-EU citizens because they don’t have the same rights as EU citizens. Now we have left the EU, our immigration policy gives non-brits none of the same rights as brits, so the policy must therefore be prejudiced against all non-brits. There are more non-brits than non-EU citizens, therefore our current policy is prejudiced against more people than when we were in the EU. Nope. Still illogical. Total drivel actually. Par for the course for you on Brexit. It’s a symptom of BDS, but don’t worry… it’s treatable. The recommended procedure is to withdraw your head from your arse. That might require a bit of effort, but you’ll feel better for it. You cannot follow logic
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 24, 2022 9:46:39 GMT
Excellent news today that Ukraine and Moldova have been accepted as fast track applicants to join the European Union. Congratulations to all concerned. To join a project that is centred around prosperity, progress, partnership and peace between all European people is a magnificent aim and achievement. I don’t know what you mean. Brexit caused the breakup of the EU and many other nations to leave. It’s what leave voters said so must be true!
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