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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 20:08:01 GMT
Not to me it wasn't, Remain was sold on fear and putting the plebs in their place , anyway its happened now. What should " we" do next. No point in looking back forever. Sure it's improved your quality of life. "We" should do what we should have done after the referendum and compromise on what they called Norway. The behaviour on both sides after the referendum was ridiculous trying to trample the other into the ground. So you need a party to advocate for " Norway" and hope it somehow gains approval. I don't think the behaviour of those who voted Leave was ridiculous, but that is a matter of opinion. They certainly did not expect the disgraceful attempts to undermine and reverse the decision , which did the " Left: in particular great detrimental harm ....and ultimately let in Boris , the opportunist.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 20:09:45 GMT
Not to me it wasn't, Remain was sold on fear and putting the plebs in their place , anyway its happened now. What should " we" do next. What do you think? No point in looking back forever. Oh and the " Liars" , the Tories, massively favoured ......Remain. Make no mistake this is a Brexit cult government. The adults were forced out. Good luck with that. I saw the " Elvis" film last night with the family at the Printworks, excellent in my opinion, got over the essence of the man. Tom Hanks and Austin Butler were brilliant.....in my opinion.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 25, 2022 20:20:08 GMT
Sure it's improved your quality of life. "We" should do what we should have done after the referendum and compromise on what they called Norway. The behaviour on both sides after the referendum was ridiculous trying to trample the other into the ground. So you need a party to advocate for " Norway" and hope it somehow gains approval. I don't think the behaviour of those who voted Leave was ridiculous, but that is a matter of opinion. They certainly did not expect the disgraceful attempts to undermine and reverse the decision , which did the " Left: in particular great detrimental harm ....and ultimately let in Boris , the opportunist. I've no problem with the behaviour of normal people who voted to leave, my own parents did so. They bought the lies. The behaviour of the politicians on both sides was disgraceful. Compromise outcomes that eurosceptics would have given their right arm for previously all of a sudden became BRINO and the remain ones were even worse if anything all they had to do was coallese around one compromise solution and everyones views would have been taken into account to an extent. They were all determined to have everything their own way and trample the other opinion into the ground.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 20:24:42 GMT
So you need a party to advocate for " Norway" and hope it somehow gains approval. I don't think the behaviour of those who voted Leave was ridiculous, but that is a matter of opinion. They certainly did not expect the disgraceful attempts to undermine and reverse the decision , which did the " Left: in particular great detrimental harm ....and ultimately let in Boris , the opportunist. I've no problem with the behaviour of normal people who voted to leave, my own parents did so. They bought the lies. The behaviour of the politicians on both sides was disgraceful. Compromise outcomes that eurosceptics would have given their right arm for previously all of a sudden became BRINO and the remain ones were even worse if anything all they had to do was coallese around one compromise solution and everyones views would have been taken into account to an extent. They were all determined to have everything their own way and trample the other opinion into the ground. I think that has been said once or twice before. Seems like a lot of people are in shock and stuck in June 2016. I think it was an " In or out " referendum, pretty clear to most people, except those who in retrospect could not accept the result. Compromise isn't relevant in such decision making...agsin , unless you can't come to terms with the reality that some people may actually decide differently from you..Did they know what they were voting for? Do you think this phenomenon is a form of PTSD or is it a completely new condition? Is it related to Covid? Should we be talking about " Brexit" and..... " Long Brexit"? Where's Harry Burrows gone? I used to like his contribution.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 25, 2022 20:33:04 GMT
Imagine what green & sunny uplands we could be living in now if the only party leader who actually believed in Brexit had stuck to his principals & gone along with huge swathes of his party's traditional voter base, rather than selling them out & ultimately landing us with the opportunistic Remainer, Joris leading the 'charge'.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 20:35:23 GMT
Imagine what green & sunny uplands we could be living in now if the only party leader who actually believed in Brexit had stuck to his principals & gone along with huge swathes of his party's traditional voter base, rather than selling them out & ultimately landing us with the opportunistic Remainer, Joris leading the 'charge'. Perhaps Corbyn should have offered a coalition with Cameron , DC? Everyone's a winner.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 25, 2022 20:47:13 GMT
Imagine what green & sunny uplands we could be living in now if the only party leader who actually believed in Brexit had stuck to his principals & gone along with huge swathes of his party's traditional voter base, rather than selling them out & ultimately landing us with the opportunistic Remainer, Joris leading the 'charge'. Somewhere between 70 and 76% of Labour voters in the 2017 election were Remain voters. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48039984.ampSo he would've lost a lot of his traditional voters by backing Leave. He would of course gained some votes by doing so, but it would have to have been a hell of a lot to stop Johnson winning in 2019.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 25, 2022 20:53:28 GMT
Of course future events cannot accuratelly be predicted, the events from 2016 onwards, Brexit, the Pandemic , Ukraine, the economic crisis have shown that. Domestically the Irish question and Scottish independence are obviously major issues. If independence is achieved I'd like to think every right minded person would accept it, without violence and that all parties concerned will make it work in good faith. The attempts to undermine the decision of Brexit, supported by the leadership all three major parties, let in someone who promised to " get Brexit done" and helped to cement Labour's current position of being in the wilderness. Ultimately it is entirely a decision for those entitled to vote, the vast,vast majority of whom do not need to listen to a campaign , having already got an unalterable position. In the case of Brexit many people already had an unalterable position when actually asked if they wanted political and economic union in a straightforward " in or out " referendum in which they were promised that their vote would count. Other than my last bit I am agreeing with you ( I think) and Muggleton's accurate and polite response. A paradox of Brexit is that it is going so badly that it simultaneously makes the case for a United Ireland more logical, while likely making the electorate more reluctant to vote for major constitutional change without the sort of detailed plan for unity that'll be very difficult to produce without broad cooperation (which won't happen). Relying on good faith from all sides is hopelessly naive also. The Brexit campaign wasn't conducted in good faith and any future Irish unity ref won't be either. We'd have been better off with no Brexit at all, but we are where we are and the current arrangement, with a few tweaks to the Protocol, has more support than any alternative for now. So agree those tweaks, help unionism out of it's self-inflicted bind, and get on with tackling the major problems of deprivation and division in NI society. And the case for a United Ireland has to be made on the practical benefits, weighed against the costs, with appropriate mitigations for the side who don't get their way. Not a promise that it's a panacea for multiple unconnected societal problems, therefore precisely the opposite to the Brexit campaign, then. People will be rightly sceptical of any promised unicorns in a United Ireland after the debacle of the last 6 years. I think that before we see a United Ireland referendum we're more likely to see a closer relationship between UK and EU, which would then facilitate an Independent Scotland while avoiding a land border. If Scotland becomes independent, the case for a United Ireland becomes stronger again. There's some interesting cooperation happening already between the administrations in Dublin, Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and will continue regardless of any future constitutional change. Will be fascinating to see how this develops. I agree with a lot of what you say but I think it is more nuanced than that. Whether The DUP were were true believers in Brexit or merely indifferent its hard to say In their minds if it happened it would cause grief for ROI vis a vis the land border and if ROI had to put up some Border Posts well that would be delicious irony from their viewpoint Their gargantuan mistake was believing Boris that he would never agree to a sea Border and rejecting May's Backstop as well as taking a few "half-crowns" The Protocol is the DUP nightmare from a Sovereignty perspective as NI becomes a point of differentiation in its relationship with GB Unlike you I believe Brexit, specifically the Protocol (as it should operate) gives NI a distinct economic advantage over GB with has already manifested itself with its GDP performance versus GB. The one part of the Protocol that doesn't work is the East/West relationship Sefcovic last October proposed almost identical red/green lanes that are now in the NI Protocol Bill. I can only assume UK Government doesn't want to negotiate because Politically it wants to keep that pot boiling. As you know the Business Community in NI have Generally been reluctant to voice any opinion on political decisions Historically for good reason to protect their safety Recently in NI also every Business section Manufacturing, Farming etc have put their head above the parapet in support of Protocol and are in dismay about NI P Bill Since Brexit for the year 2021 Ni exports to ROI increased 60% and Exports ROI to NI increased 48% What I'm basically saying is the more prosperous NI becomes and interdependent on EU/ROI will inevitably advance the argument for Unification I entirely agree with your 2nd paragraph good faith from either side won't happen but the more people that can drift to the middle because it makes economic sense the better I disagree with your 3rd para As a result of Brexit it has accelerated the United Ireland question I cannot see a closer relationship between UK and EU under this Government so for at least 2 years. The Scottish question is obviously different NI will become United simply because of the Demographics the only question is when and quite frankly I believe the Westminster Government would probably be happy to get rid. Scotland is a whole different kettle of fish EU would probably support an independent Scotland if that was the choice it made but I suspect its not high on its list of priorities with Ukraine Moldova and othern Eastern European Countries On the other hand EU would very much welcome a United Ireland which would resolve a lot of the headaches with GB or it could simply ignore them Another ace in the hole in favour of a United Ireland is the US Factor who would be very forthcoming with FDI to ease integration
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 25, 2022 21:16:40 GMT
Imagine what green & sunny uplands we could be living in now if the only party leader who actually believed in Brexit had stuck to his principals & gone along with huge swathes of his party's traditional voter base, rather than selling them out & ultimately landing us with the opportunistic Remainer, Joris leading the 'charge'. Somewhere between 70 and 76% of Labour voters in the 2017 election were Remain voters. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48039984.ampSo he would've lost a lot of his traditional voters by backing Leave. He would of course gained some votes by doing so, but it would have to have been a hell of a lot to stop Johnson winning in 2019. You know what, RRP, you've convinced me. I mean, there was me remembering what actually happened when huge swathes of the traditional Labour vote ,sometimes called 'the red wall', got completely destroyed & turned blue, in a lot of places for the first time. But no, I obviously remembered it wrong 'cos you've posted a BBC article from before the 2019 election (Which was basically a second referendum) which states in it's own words that... "The ballot paper in 2017 did not ask for voters' views on Brexit, so we do not have a definitive answer to whether this is an accurate number." But yes, your article has fully changed my mind, I must have imagined what happened in the 2019 vote, how silly of me. Thanks for posting, RRP, you've always got bang on the money takes, cheers mate.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 25, 2022 21:20:02 GMT
Somewhere between 70 and 76% of Labour voters in the 2017 election were Remain voters. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48039984.ampSo he would've lost a lot of his traditional voters by backing Leave. He would of course gained some votes by doing so, but it would have to have been a hell of a lot to stop Johnson winning in 2019. You know what, RRP, you've convinced me. I mean, there was me remembering what actually happened when huge swathes of the traditional Labour vote ,sometimes called 'the red wall', got completely destroyed & turned blue, in a lot of places for the first time. But no, I obviously remembered it wrong 'cos you've posted a BBC article from before the 2019 election (Which was basically a second referendum) which states in it's own words that... "The ballot paper in 2017 did not ask for voters' views on Brexit, so we do not have a definitive answer to whether this is an accurate number." But yes, your article has fully changed my mind, I must have imagined what happened in the 2019 vote, how silly of me. Thanks for posting, RRP, you've always got bang on the money takes, cheers mate. Utterly fantastic sarcasm! Well done Sir🤣
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 26, 2022 5:24:36 GMT
Somewhere between 70 and 76% of Labour voters in the 2017 election were Remain voters. www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48039984.ampSo he would've lost a lot of his traditional voters by backing Leave. He would of course gained some votes by doing so, but it would have to have been a hell of a lot to stop Johnson winning in 2019. You know what, RRP, you've convinced me. I mean, there was me remembering what actually happened when huge swathes of the traditional Labour vote ,sometimes called 'the red wall', got completely destroyed & turned blue, in a lot of places for the first time. But no, I obviously remembered it wrong 'cos you've posted a BBC article from before the 2019 election (Which was basically a second referendum) which states in it's own words that... "The ballot paper in 2017 did not ask for voters' views on Brexit, so we do not have a definitive answer to whether this is an accurate number." But yes, your article has fully changed my mind, I must have imagined what happened in the 2019 vote, how silly of me. Thanks for posting, RRP, you've always got bang on the money takes, cheers mate. What you've done there is, someone's presented a slightly different take on things, and instead of considering it you've gone and absolutely pissed your knickers and got all arsey about it. All without really reading what I've written. For a start, it's correct "The ballot paper in 2017 did not ask for voters' views on Brexit, so we do not have a definitive answer to whether this is an accurate number." But then there's a quite a lot of research stated in that link that aims to give us a rough idea of the figure. And if there's no definitive figure, what are you basing your opinions on? Secondly, I never even said that Corbyn didn't lose Leave votes by not backing Leave. Clearly that happened. I was saying that there's a fair chance he would've lost as many (maybe even more) if he'd have backed Leave as many 2017 Labour voters would've switched to the Lib Dems or Greens. He was a bit fucked if he did, fucked if he didn't really - I think the chance of him being elected in 2019 was minimal whatever he did considering Brexit. I took from your post that you thought he would've been elected if he backed Leave.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 26, 2022 7:25:08 GMT
When it comes to posting bollocks fella you take the biscuit. You are very quick and contemptuous of posters that make a grammar or spelling mistake or make a posting you disagree with. A lot of the time you do this in a manner that tries to belittle the original poster and attempts to magnify, in your own mind, your superior intellect. Besides attacking the poster you try to trivialise the substance without adding anything to the debate. You posted a load of bollocks, you were called out and you can't handle it. Man up, admit when you've made a mistake, you may find it liberating rather than being angry with the World. I admit you post a load of bollocks.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 27, 2022 16:27:19 GMT
So the Tory government bill to rip up the much celebrated Brexit deal the same tory government championed is having its second reading.
The tories acknowledge that their bill breaks international law, but they argue they are doing so under the doctrine of necessity and so it is justifiable.
Having used the doctrine of necessity on a couple of occasions relating to jurisdiction in my work, I know it is only possible in exceptional circumstances where no other options are available.
I am no legal expert on the protocol, but as far as I see it, where the majority in Northern Ireland are in favour of the protocol, and that we not only willingly signed up to but in fact suggested it as the solution to respecting the GFA, it does not seem that it now needs to be breached out of any necessity whatsoever to respect the GFA.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2022 16:57:16 GMT
So the Tory government bill to rip up the much celebrated Brexit deal the same tory government championed is having its second reading. The tories acknowledge that their bill breaks international law, but they argue they are doing so under the doctrine of necessity and so it is justifiable. Having used the doctrine of necessity on a couple of occasions relating to jurisdiction in my work, I know it is only possible in exceptional circumstances where no other options are available. I am no legal expert on the protocol, but as far as I see it, where the majority in Northern Ireland are in favour of the protocol, and that we not only willingly signed up to but in fact suggested it as the solution to respecting the GFA, it does not seem that it now needs to be breached out of any necessity whatsoever to respect the GFA. We certainly do need a new government, a bit of leadership, , sincerity and honesty post Brexit....with a little bit less bitterness, and divisive and hidden agendas
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 17:15:07 GMT
So the Tory government bill to rip up the much celebrated Brexit deal the same tory government championed is having its second reading. The tories acknowledge that their bill breaks international law, but they argue they are doing so under the doctrine of necessity and so it is justifiable. Having used the doctrine of necessity on a couple of occasions relating to jurisdiction in my work, I know it is only possible in exceptional circumstances where no other options are available. I am no legal expert on the protocol, but as far as I see it, where the majority in Northern Ireland are in favour of the protocol, and that we not only willingly signed up to but in fact suggested it as the solution to respecting the GFA, it does not seem that it now needs to be breached out of any necessity whatsoever to respect the GFA. We certainly do need a new government, a bit of leadership, , sincerity and honesty post Brexit....with a little bit less bitterness, and divisive and hidden agendas Are you talking about Westminster or Holyrood?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 27, 2022 17:27:58 GMT
We certainly do need a new government, a bit of leadership, , sincerity and honesty post Brexit....with a little bit less bitterness, and divisive and hidden agendas Are you talking about Westminster or Holyrood? The Scots won’t be a problem when they leave the UK because of brexit
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 17:38:30 GMT
Are you talking about Westminster or Holyrood? The Scots won’t be a problem when they leave the UK because of brexit What makes you think they will leave the UK because of Brexit?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2022 17:39:04 GMT
We certainly do need a new government, a bit of leadership, , sincerity and honesty post Brexit....with a little bit less bitterness, and divisive and hidden agendas Are you talking about Westminster or Holyrood? I think Westminster Partick.....from My perspective ,I don't think the make up of Holyrood will change " drastically " until the big issue is addressed , again ,for a generation.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 17:41:04 GMT
Are you talking about Westminster or Holyrood? I think Westminster Partick.....from My perspective ,I don't think the make up of Holyrood will change " drastically " until the big issue is addressed , again ,for a generation. Sorry pal, it was a wee joke. I know you meant Westminster. But Hollywood is every bit as bad. Even worse in some ways.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 27, 2022 17:41:20 GMT
The Scots won’t be a problem when they leave the UK because of brexit What makes you think they will leave the UK because of Brexit? It isn’t the only reason. But a significant majority of scots voted to remain in the EU. There’s no doubt that brexit has damaged the union (Uk not EU)
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 17:46:01 GMT
What makes you think they will leave the UK because of Brexit? It isn’t the only reason. But a significant majority of scots voted to remain in the EU. There’s no doubt that brexit has damaged the union (Uk not EU) You’d imagine that would be the case. And if you listened to Elsie McSelfie or the Lard of the Isles you might well believe that to be the case. But the reality is the dial on independence has not shifted on the dial since the EU referendum. Stuck fast at 53-47 to stay part of the UK. So, it would appear it is not the case.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 27, 2022 17:49:57 GMT
It isn’t the only reason. But a significant majority of scots voted to remain in the EU. There’s no doubt that brexit has damaged the union (Uk not EU) You’d imagine that would be the case. And if you listened to Elsie McSelfie or the Lard of the Isles you might well believe that to be the case. But the reality is the dial on independence has not shifted on the dial since the EU referendum. Stuck fast at 53-47 to stay part of the UK. So, it would appear it is not the case. I spoke to a few people recently in Glasgow about independence and nearly all were against it, a small pool of folk mind you. Like those womens anti aging cream adverts were there’s a bit of text at the bottom saying 71% of 55 women agree, like it’s a good thing to advertise😉
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 27, 2022 17:54:55 GMT
It isn’t the only reason. But a significant majority of scots voted to remain in the EU. There’s no doubt that brexit has damaged the union (Uk not EU) You’d imagine that would be the case. And if you listened to Elsie McSelfie or the Lard of the Isles you might well believe that to be the case. But the reality is the dial on independence has not shifted on the dial since the EU referendum. Stuck fast at 53-47 to stay part of the UK. So, it would appear it is not the case. Brexit has given us this repulsive government that Scots hate more than most. It makes more people think being part of the EU rather than run by Westminster all the more attractive. Brexit definitely makes the Scots leaving the UK more likely. And Northern Ireland.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 17:59:44 GMT
You’d imagine that would be the case. And if you listened to Elsie McSelfie or the Lard of the Isles you might well believe that to be the case. But the reality is the dial on independence has not shifted on the dial since the EU referendum. Stuck fast at 53-47 to stay part of the UK. So, it would appear it is not the case. Brexit has given us this repulsive government that Scots hate more than most. It makes more people think being part of the EU rather than run by Westminster all the more attractive. Brexit definitely makes the Scots leaving the UK more likely. And Northern Ireland. That is your opinion. Which as we know is generally a load of bollocks. Opinion polls tell a very different story. You might want to run your jaundiced, blinkered eyes over this recent Wings Over Scotland article on the subject of polls; Progress Report
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2022 20:10:44 GMT
You’d imagine that would be the case. And if you listened to Elsie McSelfie or the Lard of the Isles you might well believe that to be the case. But the reality is the dial on independence has not shifted on the dial since the EU referendum. Stuck fast at 53-47 to stay part of the UK. So, it would appear it is not the case. Brexit has given us this repulsive government that Scots hate more than most. It makes more people think being part of the EU rather than run by Westminster all the more attractive. Brexit definitely makes the Scots leaving the UK more likely. And Northern Ireland. More or less likely it is a democratic question for those entitled to vote. ( whether they get it " right" or " wrong" in " everyone's eyes" Presumably, equally the English voters should not be bound by votes in regions of the UK of GB and NI. Really your arguments are a symptom of the inability to accept tht others have voted differently in a clear " in / out" referendum, in which the electorate was clear, and not regionally. And , for me, I'm not going over the" they didn't know what they voted for( open to interpretation/ do we ever?) , arguments etc etcetera, which largely arose AFTER the referendum not before....perhaps if Remain had won , we would not have heard of them again ( I know about " unfinished business")... I think that the reluctance to accept the vote and the lost and wasted 3 years of attempted subversion following the result have changed UK politics , impeded our ability to deal with the Pandemic, let in Boris and potentially destroyed the Left or Labour fof a generation. The main hope that the Left has is grasping the Green agenda( I see Boris has taken a good stance on this at G7 today), grasping the opportunity to take ahead on Public ownership of the amenities and Rail( given the current difficulties), electoral( Proportional representation/ H of L abolition)...what do we get" keep your head down as much as possible get Boris, wait for the " government lose elections oppositions don't win them " moment and... Same old , same old.....oh and possibly insult the " ordinary "( deliberate) person along the way by implying Racism and unintelligent, amongst others.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 27, 2022 20:42:23 GMT
Brexit has given us this repulsive government that Scots hate more than most. It makes more people think being part of the EU rather than run by Westminster all the more attractive. Brexit definitely makes the Scots leaving the UK more likely. And Northern Ireland. More or less likely it is a democratic question for those entitled to vote. ( whether they get it " right" or " wrong" in " everyone's eyes" Presumably, equally the English voters should not be bound by votes in regions of the UK of GB and NI. Really your arguments are a symptom of the inability to accept tht others have voted differently in a clear " in / out" referendum, in which the electorate was clear, and not regionally. And , for me, I'm not going over the" they didn't know what they voted for( open to interpretation/ do we ever?) , arguments etc etcetera, which largely arose AFTER the referendum not before....perhaps if Remain had won , we would not have heard of them again ( I know about " unfinished business")... I think that the reluctance to accept the vote and the lost and wasted 3 years of attempted subversion following the result have changed UK politics , impeded our ability to deal with the Pandemic, let in Boris and potentially destroyed the Left or Labour fof a generation. The main hope that the Left has is grasping the Green agenda( I see Boris has taken a good stance on this at G7 today), grasping the opportunity to take ahead on Public ownership of the amenities and Rail( given the current difficulties), electoral( Proportional representation/ H of L abolition)...what do we get" keep your head down as much as possible get Boris, wait for the " government lose elections oppositions don't win them " moment and... Same old , same old.....oh and possibly insult the " ordinary "( deliberate) person along the way by implying Racism and unintelligent, amongst others. I think the 'right' need to move on and accept the result of the 2017 election that led to a hung parliament and the "3 years of attempted subversion". Ultimately even if the 'right' don't feel that the public voted "correctly" (in their minds) in the 2017 election, they chose a hung parliament and the chaos, gridlock and general stalemate that is produced by such a situation. I think it is just time to move on. It seems to be a lack of leadership and vision in the 'right' which is making them cling on to past grievances - instead of looking towards a future that they themselves have created. They seem stuck in a kind of victimhood, a never-ending groan about Brexit taking longer than it should have due to the electorate not voting "correctly" in 2017. Surely anyone who championed Brexit should be delighted with where the country stands at the moment, having got what they voted for (albeit slightly slower than we thought it would take).
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2022 21:14:06 GMT
More or less likely it is a democratic question for those entitled to vote. ( whether they get it " right" or " wrong" in " everyone's eyes" Presumably, equally the English voters should not be bound by votes in regions of the UK of GB and NI. Really your arguments are a symptom of the inability to accept tht others have voted differently in a clear " in / out" referendum, in which the electorate was clear, and not regionally. And , for me, I'm not going over the" they didn't know what they voted for( open to interpretation/ do we ever?) , arguments etc etcetera, which largely arose AFTER the referendum not before....perhaps if Remain had won , we would not have heard of them again ( I know about " unfinished business")... I think that the reluctance to accept the vote and the lost and wasted 3 years of attempted subversion following the result have changed UK politics , impeded our ability to deal with the Pandemic, let in Boris and potentially destroyed the Left or Labour fof a generation. The main hope that the Left has is grasping the Green agenda( I see Boris has taken a good stance on this at G7 today), grasping the opportunity to take ahead on Public ownership of the amenities and Rail( given the current difficulties), electoral( Proportional representation/ H of L abolition)...what do we get" keep your head down as much as possible get Boris, wait for the " government lose elections oppositions don't win them " moment and... Same old , same old.....oh and possibly insult the " ordinary "( deliberate) person along the way by implying Racism and unintelligent, amongst others. I think the 'right' need to move on and accept the result of the 2017 election that led to a hung parliament and the "3 years of attempted subversion". Ultimately even if the 'right' don't feel that the public voted "correctly" (in their minds) in the 2017 election, they chose a hung parliament and the chaos, gridlock and general stalemate that is produced by such a situation. I think it is just time to move on. It seems to be a lack of leadership and vision in the 'right' which is making them cling on to past grievances - instead of looking towards a future that they themselves have created. They seem stuck in a kind of victimhood, a never-ending groan about Brexit taking longer than it should have due to the electorate not voting "correctly" in 2017. Surely anyone who championed Brexit should be delighted with where the country stands at the moment, having got what they voted for (albeit slightly slower than we thought it would take). I don't follow your argument at all Rip, I'm not that clever. It was a clear in/ out referendum about membership of the EU, that'll do me.What happened since is dependent on several other factors in a changing world...the Elected UK government, the intent of the major political parties and other major players the attitude and approaching response of the EU. When the Scots and Irish have their say , at the forefront of the electorate's mind will be issues of Nationhood, independence, sovereignty, democracy , history, political union etc , very little about trade....
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Post by muggleton on Jun 27, 2022 21:22:51 GMT
If Brexit was going even remotely well you'd be more open to talking about it, so your reticence is easy to understand. That's fine as far as it goes, but we can't meaningfully discuss potential future constitutional change in Ireland without reference to the massive change which has already happened via Brexit. The shadow of Brexit will loom over British (and Irish for that matter) politics for at least a generation, and ignoring it because it hasn't turned out as we hoped isn't going to make it go away. It's not about ignoring it. It's about recognising and coming to terms with it( which probably means different things to different people ) and making the most of it ( which probably means different things to different people). Not simply saying " look how bad Brexit was"....a bit pointless really, most people will simply agree or disagree dependant upon how they voted and why they voted as they did. The question facing the country and particularly in respect of ordinary people ( and I use that term deliberately) is what the country should do now, in respect of a very changing world. The real issue for those who can't come to terms with the fact that a small majority of those that voted did not want be part of a political and economic union with the EU,is What should " we" do now?" AND "how can that be achieved?"...particularly in light of the cartel of the political class. It is always easy to be a critic of those trying to do something, those in power....much harder to take responsibility and lead....I think Corbyn found that out. The genuine problem for the country is that it's still politically impossible for mainstream parties to have an honest conversation about the merits of Brexit. This is logical from their pov as voters aren't ready for that conversation yet, but it's a terrible way to make policy. Every single disastrous decision in history was made by someone who took responsibility and led, so that's not enough on it's own. We need evidence-based policy, that's open to challenge, and to change when circumstances or facts change. We are where we are though and I'd always rather light the candle than curse the darkness. I already had an Irish passport anyway, so am cocooned from it to an extent anyway. There's been a 1,200% increase in Irish passports issued to UK citizens since the vote - these are people coming to terms with and making the best of Brexit. Eventually their govt will show similar pragmatism and seek a closer relationship with the EU, but we'll already be far worse off than we ever had to be.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2022 21:40:10 GMT
It's not about ignoring it. It's about recognising and coming to terms with it( which probably means different things to different people ) and making the most of it ( which probably means different things to different people). Not simply saying " look how bad Brexit was"....a bit pointless really, most people will simply agree or disagree dependant upon how they voted and why they voted as they did. The question facing the country and particularly in respect of ordinary people ( and I use that term deliberately) is what the country should do now, in respect of a very changing world. The real issue for those who can't come to terms with the fact that a small majority of those that voted did not want be part of a political and economic union with the EU,is What should " we" do now?" AND "how can that be achieved?"...particularly in light of the cartel of the political class. It is always easy to be a critic of those trying to do something, those in power....much harder to take responsibility and lead....I think Corbyn found that out. The genuine problem for the country is that it's still politically impossible for mainstream parties to have an honest conversation about the merits of Brexit. This is logical from their pov as voters aren't ready for that conversation yet, but it's a terrible way to make policy. Every single disastrous decision in history was made by someone who took responsibility and led, so that's not enough on it's own. We need evidence-based policy, that's open to challenge, and to change when circumstances or facts change. We are where we are though and I'd always rather light the candle than curse the darkness. I already had an Irish passport anyway, so am cocooned from it to an extent anyway. There's been a 1,200% increase in Irish passports issued to UK citizens since the vote - these are people coming to terms with and making the best of Brexit. Eventually their govt will show similar pragmatism and seek a closer relationship with the EU, but we'll already be far worse off than we ever had to be. I agree to a degree. For me it's acceptance of Brexit and then electing a government with " decent, acceptable, uniting, representative and visionary " policies to state the blindingly ( but therefore somewhat meaningless) obvious. Brexit has happened. We are now a country ,independent of the seven institutions of the EU. I don't think we need to look back ( i know you are not necessarily meaning back) at the merits of Brexit, in one sense Brexit is an event that has happened. Its now about what we do as a country. Interestingly the merits or otherwise of being in/ not in the EU were hardly ever mentioned whilst we were IN....except of course those that involved economic or political UNITY , eg ,joining the Euro, border control ( even if misunderstood). I think the EU supporters took the electorate too much for granted and didn't even attempt( no need to) to take the public with them or to embrace democracy ( imo). There was also toomuch of a cartel of the major parties/institutions no opportunity for debate. The British people will never truly relate to an overseas, remote government....if only for reasons of geography and history, let alone, patriotism , identity and democracy. Anyway I'll bow out now, I'm beginning to get drawn into doing the very thing I've said it is best not to do. Have a good night.
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Post by muggleton on Jun 27, 2022 21:49:38 GMT
A paradox of Brexit is that it is going so badly that it simultaneously makes the case for a United Ireland more logical, while likely making the electorate more reluctant to vote for major constitutional change without the sort of detailed plan for unity that'll be very difficult to produce without broad cooperation (which won't happen). Relying on good faith from all sides is hopelessly naive also. The Brexit campaign wasn't conducted in good faith and any future Irish unity ref won't be either. We'd have been better off with no Brexit at all, but we are where we are and the current arrangement, with a few tweaks to the Protocol, has more support than any alternative for now. So agree those tweaks, help unionism out of it's self-inflicted bind, and get on with tackling the major problems of deprivation and division in NI society. And the case for a United Ireland has to be made on the practical benefits, weighed against the costs, with appropriate mitigations for the side who don't get their way. Not a promise that it's a panacea for multiple unconnected societal problems, therefore precisely the opposite to the Brexit campaign, then. People will be rightly sceptical of any promised unicorns in a United Ireland after the debacle of the last 6 years. I think that before we see a United Ireland referendum we're more likely to see a closer relationship between UK and EU, which would then facilitate an Independent Scotland while avoiding a land border. If Scotland becomes independent, the case for a United Ireland becomes stronger again. There's some interesting cooperation happening already between the administrations in Dublin, Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, and will continue regardless of any future constitutional change. Will be fascinating to see how this develops. I agree with a lot of what you say but I think it is more nuanced than that. Whether The DUP were were true believers in Brexit or merely indifferent its hard to say In their minds if it happened it would cause grief for ROI vis a vis the land border and if ROI had to put up some Border Posts well that would be delicious irony from their viewpoint Their gargantuan mistake was believing Boris that he would never agree to a sea Border and rejecting May's Backstop as well as taking a few "half-crowns" The Protocol is the DUP nightmare from a Sovereignty perspective as NI becomes a point of differentiation in its relationship with GB Unlike you I believe Brexit, specifically the Protocol (as it should operate) gives NI a distinct economic advantage over GB with has already manifested itself with its GDP performance versus GB. The one part of the Protocol that doesn't work is the East/West relationship Sefcovic last October proposed almost identical red/green lanes that are now in the NI Protocol Bill. I can only assume UK Government doesn't want to negotiate because Politically it wants to keep that pot boiling. As you know the Business Community in NI have Generally been reluctant to voice any opinion on political decisions Historically for good reason to protect their safety Recently in NI also every Business section Manufacturing, Farming etc have put their head above the parapet in support of Protocol and are in dismay about NI P Bill Since Brexit for the year 2021 Ni exports to ROI increased 60% and Exports ROI to NI increased 48% What I'm basically saying is the more prosperous NI becomes and interdependent on EU/ROI will inevitably advance the argument for Unification I entirely agree with your 2nd paragraph good faith from either side won't happen but the more people that can drift to the middle because it makes economic sense the better I disagree with your 3rd para As a result of Brexit it has accelerated the United Ireland question I cannot see a closer relationship between UK and EU under this Government so for at least 2 years. The Scottish question is obviously different NI will become United simply because of the Demographics the only question is when and quite frankly I believe the Westminster Government would probably be happy to get rid. Scotland is a whole different kettle of fish EU would probably support an independent Scotland if that was the choice it made but I suspect its not high on its list of priorities with Ukraine Moldova and othern Eastern European Countries On the other hand EU would very much welcome a United Ireland which would resolve a lot of the headaches with GB or it could simply ignore them Another ace in the hole in favour of a United Ireland is the US Factor who would be very forthcoming with FDI to ease integration Nuance is important alright, and even the DUP has ideological tensions between liberal and traditional wings. They had their share of headbangers who genuinely wanted the red meat of a hard border (Nelson McCausland the ring leader, and their Westminster team is much more extreme than their Stormont one), but their Economy Minister Simon Hamilton wouldn't even admit to voting Leave on camera (he clearly didn't). Not quite a broad church, but at least not as evangelical as they used to be. Their front bench rallied to the flag for the referendum, but their hearts weren't properly in a hard Brexit. For eg Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness wrote a joint letter to Theresa May on her appointment outlining their priorities for Brexit, which included avoiding a hard border. The only form of Brexit the DUP have ever admitted to wanting was made of unicorns, and they swallowed the lies of every ERG chancer who tickled their bellies. Even as a political opponent of theirs I was absolutely scundered (to use the vernacular) for them. I don't buy the inevitability of a United Ireland through demographics. I think it's a likely proposition in 20+ years, but there's a lot of water to go under the bridge in the meantime. The real gains post GFA have been towards equality of recognition for the 2 communities, making it a much safer and comfortable place to be Irish than when I grew up. Ironically this has released some of pressure for Unity - people can access jobs and express their Irishness in the current set-up, without the turmoil of constitutional change. And the centre ground has the kids of former paramilitaries on both sides standing on non-sectarian platforms.
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