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Post by partickpotter on Jun 19, 2022 10:10:49 GMT
If Scotland does become independent they should be given Northern Ireland as part of the separation deal and then we can let Scotland and Ireland sort out future arrangements. After all, the unionist presence is a legacy of King James (a Scot) and his Plantation of Ulster which saw, predominantly Scots hope across the Irish Sea to set up shop in the north of Ireland. So, it’s really a Scots / Irish thing in the North. England’s interest was largely in the south, which of course, ended a hundred years ago. I agree Partick, which is why I put "English" in inverted commas, I can recall you explaining this before.......I don't think we can put everything in one short post. Prior to the Referendum, I did believe and say that Northern Ireland , Gibraltar ( eventually) and even the Falklands would be issues following the Referendum. It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing. Edit, when I said " agree", I meant about your explanation of the history.....I think the two issues would and should be treated separately....and in my opinion, from my English perspective, NI needs attention first ( Your idea is interesting.....was it tongue in cheek and inconceivable?) A couple of things… My comment was not a serious proposition as there is no chance of it happening. It was more in the spirit of raising some of the background that, I think, is worth acknowledging. But who knows, maybe there is something in it. Meaning, if Scotland gets independence, which means there is no longer such a thing as “Britain”, to whom do the Ulster Protestants look to as their kith and kin. It could only be Scotland. Your point about the left and a united Ireland is correct. You’d think they’d welcome Brexit, if only a little as something that helps that move forward even if only a little. But, as we know, Remoaners can only moan and moan and moan and moan and moan and moan and moan and moan. And moan again. So no surprise that they moan. It’s what they do. That’s the difference between a Remainer like me and a Remoaner like, well, like several on this forum.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 19, 2022 12:47:46 GMT
If Scotland does become independent they should be given Northern Ireland as part of the separation deal and then we can let Scotland and Ireland sort out future arrangements. After all, the unionist presence is a legacy of King James (a Scot) and his Plantation of Ulster which saw, predominantly Scots hope across the Irish Sea to set up shop in the north of Ireland. So, it’s really a Scots / Irish thing in the North. England’s interest was largely in the south, which of course, ended a hundred years ago. I agree Partick, which is why I put "English" in inverted commas, I can recall you explaining this before.......I don't think we can put everything in one short post. Prior to the Referendum, I did believe and say that Northern Ireland , Gibraltar ( eventually) and even the Falklands would be issues following the Referendum. It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing. Edit, when I said " agree", I meant about your explanation of the history.....I think the two issues would and should be treated separately....and in my opinion, from my English perspective, NI needs attention first ( Your idea is interesting.....was it tongue in cheek and inconceivable?) 'It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing.' Yeah, strange that 🤔
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2022 8:10:28 GMT
If Scotland does become independent they should be given Northern Ireland as part of the separation deal and then we can let Scotland and Ireland sort out future arrangements. After all, the unionist presence is a legacy of King James (a Scot) and his Plantation of Ulster which saw, predominantly Scots hope across the Irish Sea to set up shop in the north of Ireland. So, it’s really a Scots / Irish thing in the North. England’s interest was largely in the south, which of course, ended a hundred years ago. I agree Partick, which is why I put "English" in inverted commas, I can recall you explaining this before.......I don't think we can put everything in one short post. Prior to the Referendum, I did believe and say that Northern Ireland , Gibraltar ( eventually) and even the Falklands would be issues following the Referendum. It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing. Edit, when I said " agree", I meant about your explanation of the history.....I think the two issues would and should be treated separately....and in my opinion, from my English perspective, NI needs attention first ( Your idea is interesting.....was it tongue in cheek and inconceivable?) I think the main opinion expressed on this thread about the potential unification of Ireland, Scottish independence and renewed Welsh nationalism is amusement. Accompanied by an appreciation of the irony of the fact that it is eurosceptics, who have argued strongly for the integrity and sovereignty of the UK, who have given a massive shot in the arm to all the Irish, Welsh and Scottish factions campaigning for a break from the current constitution. Not whether it's a good or bad thing, simply that Brexit has made those moves more likely. Surely, even Brexiteers can see the irony in that, given that the sovereignty of the UK is, just about, the only argument still standing, and a weak one at that. It was never about Europe or indeed the integrity of the UK, just keeping the Tory Party in tact.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 20, 2022 8:18:23 GMT
Oops....
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 20, 2022 9:18:30 GMT
I agree Partick, which is why I put "English" in inverted commas, I can recall you explaining this before.......I don't think we can put everything in one short post. Prior to the Referendum, I did believe and say that Northern Ireland , Gibraltar ( eventually) and even the Falklands would be issues following the Referendum. It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing. Edit, when I said " agree", I meant about your explanation of the history.....I think the two issues would and should be treated separately....and in my opinion, from my English perspective, NI needs attention first ( Your idea is interesting.....was it tongue in cheek and inconceivable?) I think the main opinion expressed on this thread about the potential unification of Ireland, Scottish independence and renewed Welsh nationalism is amusement. Accompanied by an appreciation of the irony of the fact that it is eurosceptics, who have argued strongly for the integrity and sovereignty of the UK, who have given a massive shot in the arm to all the Irish, Welsh and Scottish factions campaigning for a break from the current constitution. Not whether it's a good or bad thing, simply that Brexit has made those moves more likely. Surely, even Brexiteers can see the irony in that, given that the sovereignty of the UK is, just about, the only argument still standing, and a weak one at that. It was never about Europe or indeed the integrity of the UK, just keeping the Tory Party in tact. Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 20, 2022 9:49:22 GMT
I think the main opinion expressed on this thread about the potential unification of Ireland, Scottish independence and renewed Welsh nationalism is amusement. Accompanied by an appreciation of the irony of the fact that it is eurosceptics, who have argued strongly for the integrity and sovereignty of the UK, who have given a massive shot in the arm to all the Irish, Welsh and Scottish factions campaigning for a break from the current constitution. Not whether it's a good or bad thing, simply that Brexit has made those moves more likely. Surely, even Brexiteers can see the irony in that, given that the sovereignty of the UK is, just about, the only argument still standing, and a weak one at that. It was never about Europe or indeed the integrity of the UK, just keeping the Tory Party in tact. Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations. I must have imagined Wales having a Leave majority too (only a slightly lower majority than England) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_decision_by_the_electorate%2CIreland_voted_to_%22Remain%22.?wprov=sfla1There has always been an undercurrent of nationalism in Wales due to various factors including (but not limited to) language rights, the investiture of an Englishman as Prince of Wales and the flooding of a Welsh village to provide water to Merseyside (both 1960s) and holiday homes pricing locals out of the market. Funnily enough, peak cottage burning season was when we were in the EU 😯
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2022 10:00:13 GMT
I think the main opinion expressed on this thread about the potential unification of Ireland, Scottish independence and renewed Welsh nationalism is amusement. Accompanied by an appreciation of the irony of the fact that it is eurosceptics, who have argued strongly for the integrity and sovereignty of the UK, who have given a massive shot in the arm to all the Irish, Welsh by and Scottish factions campaigning for a break from the current constitution. Not whether it's a good or bad thing, simply that Brexit has made those moves more likely. Surely, even Brexiteers can see the irony in that, given that the sovereignty of the UK is, just about, the only argument still standing, and a weak one at that. It was never about Europe or indeed the integrity of the UK, just keeping the Tory Party in tact. Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations. I don't think Farage gives a shit about anything other than Farage, as his comments about Brexit post referendum have shown. However, the Tory Party aim was to stop it fracturing into several right wing options, just like the current non-right vote. Something that has been achieved remarkably successfully, at some cost to the country overall and possibly even the UK as an entity in its own current form. I don t think any of those voters you mentioned thought for one second that this was essentially an internal Tory Party row, especially once the dog whistle ideas of too much immigration and interfering, meddling foreigners had been sufficiently weaponised. We're seeing a return to these tactics already. I wouldn't be surprised to see this continue now until the next election. It worked before. It'll probably work again. A nice diversion away from the incompetence and corruption of the government, failing public services and the cost of living crisis.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2022 10:05:35 GMT
Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations. I must have imagined Wales having a Leave majority too (only a slightly lower majority than England) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_decision_by_the_electorate%2CIreland_voted_to_%22Remain%22.?wprov=sfla1There has always been an undercurrent of nationalism in Wales due to various factors including (but not limited to) language rights, the investiture of an Englishman as Prince of Wales and the flooding of a Welsh village to provide water to Merseyside (both 1960s) and holiday homes pricing locals out of the market. Funnily enough, peak cottage burning season was when we were in the EU 😯 In a YouGov poll in November 2020, 33% said they would support Welsh independence, the highest ever level of support. Support rose to a new level in a Savanta ComRes poll conducted from 18-22 February 2021 and published by ITV News on 4 March 2021. This one found that 39% of Welsh voters would vote Yes for independence, once 'Don't Knows' are excluded. As I said, Brexit has given reunification or independence a big shot in the arm for all constituent parts of the current UK, even if it remains a distinct minority cause in some of them.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 20, 2022 10:10:34 GMT
Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations. I don't think Farage gives a shit about anything other than Farage, as his comments about Brexit post referendum have shown. However, the Tory Party aim was to stop it fracturing into several right wing options, just like the current non-right vote. Something that has been achieved remarkably successfully, at some cost to the country overall and possibly even the UK as an entity in its own current form. I don t think any of those voters you mentioned thought for one second that this was essentially an internal Tory Party row, especially once the dog whistle ideas of too much immigration and interfering, meddling foreigners had been sufficiently weaponised. We're seeing a return to these tactics already. I wouldn't be surprised to see this continue now until the next election. It worked before. It'll probably work again. A nice diversion away from the incompetence and corruption of the government, failing public services and the cost of living crisis. There are an awful lot of 2019 "new intake" Tory MP's who wouldn't be out of place in either UKIP or the BNP. Indeed some of them actually were.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 20, 2022 10:20:34 GMT
Do you think Farage was concerned with keeping the Tory Part intact? Or indeed the 71% of voters in Dennis Skinner’s old constituency who voted to leave? Not to mention Doncaster, Hartlepool and indeed Stoke who voted in similar proportions. And loads of other Red Wall seats. It’s possible that there were other motivations. I don't think Farage gives a shit about anything other than Farage, as his comments about Brexit post referendum have shown. However, the Tory Party aim was to stop it fracturing into several right wing options, just like the current non-right vote. Something that has been achieved remarkably successfully, at some cost to the country overall and possibly even the UK as an entity in its own current form. I don t think any of those voters you mentioned thought for one second that this was essentially an internal Tory Party row, especially once the dog whistle ideas of too much immigration and interfering, meddling foreigners had been sufficiently weaponised. We're seeing a return to these tactics already. I wouldn't be surprised to see this continue now until the next election. It worked before. It'll probably work again. A nice diversion away from the incompetence and corruption of the government, failing public services and the cost of living crisis. Ok, that qualifier makes sense. Or, in other words, your statement that “It was never about Europe or indeed the integrity of the UK, just keeping the Tory Party in tact” was just hyperbole. But you move from one generality to another with your dog whistle whine about immigration. I’d love to see you make that accusation against some of our non-Tory Leave voters on this forum. As to diversion, it’s what Governments do. Take a butchers north of the border to see that’s done exquisitely. There was a wonderful example yesterday with Sturgeon laying into the Tory Government on the upcoming rail strikes; as was pointed out this was on a day when Scotland’s train system, which is now run by her government, was operating a skeleton service causing huge problems and mere hours after a fiasco that followed an Ed Sheridan gig at Hampden. The thing with Johnson’s government is they are about as good as diversion as they are about the day job. Meaning not very!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2022 10:25:40 GMT
The original point was about "the Left" and re-unification of Ireland, and the apparent contradiction on here as to that position.
My reply was simply to point out that the main response on here was not one of contradiction, nor whether it was a good or bad thing, but more one of irony and amusement at the fact that Brexiteers, for whom sovereignty and the integrity of the UK are apparently sacrosanct, have done more to boost all the reunification/independence causes than anybody else!
But, yes, the overarching intention for the Tory Party was putting the European question to bed finally. Something which had plagued the Party for decades. The country and its people came a long way second, as we are now seeing with all the attempts to minimise the damage.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 20, 2022 10:42:17 GMT
The original point was about "the Left" and re-unification of Ireland, and the apparent contradiction on here as to that position. My reply was simply to point out that the main response on here was not one of contradiction, nor whether it was a good or bad thing, but more one of irony and amusement at the fact that Brexiteers, for whom sovereignty and the integrity of the UK are apparently sacrosanct, have done more to boost all the reunification/independence causes than anybody else! But, yes, the overarching intention for the Tory Party was putting the European question to bed finally. Something which had plagued the Party for decades. The country and its people came a long way second, as we are now seeing with all the attempts to minimise the damage. But all three main parties were committed to in/out referendums on Europe. So, what’s the problem with having one? Whatever the motivation. Enough people clearly wanted to have their say. Which is, of course, the problem that so many Remoaners have. The people said something they didn’t want to hear. Here’s the thing, why isn’t there a new party dedicated to having a new referendum on rejoining the EU? The opposite of UKIP / Brexit Party. Too early? Not enough courage? Farage, for all his (legion) faults, had the balls (and brass neck) to make Brexit the #1 political topic and force a referendum. I don’t see anyone on the Remoan side with the same drive and hunger to bring rejoining the EU to the top of the political agenda. What I do see and hear is endless whining about Brexit. Personally, I’d quite like to see this, as I would support a vote to rejoin the EU.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2022 12:41:57 GMT
The original point was about "the Left" and re-unification of Ireland, and the apparent contradiction on here as to that position. My reply was simply to point out that the main response on here was not one of contradiction, nor whether it was a good or bad thing, but more one of irony and amusement at the fact that Brexiteers, for whom sovereignty and the integrity of the UK are apparently sacrosanct, have done more to boost all the reunification/independence causes than anybody else! But, yes, the overarching intention for the Tory Party was putting the European question to bed finally. Something which had plagued the Party for decades. The country and its people came a long way second, as we are now seeing with all the attempts to minimise the damage. But all three main parties were committed to in/out referendums on Europe. So, what’s the problem with having one? Whatever the motivation. Enough people clearly wanted to have their say. Which is, of course, the problem that so many Remoaners have. The people said something they didn’t want to hear. Here’s the thing, why isn’t there a new party dedicated to having a new referendum on rejoining the EU? The opposite of UKIP / Brexit Party. Too early? Not enough courage? Farage, for all his (legion) faults, had the balls (and brass neck) to make Brexit the #1 political topic and force a referendum. I don’t see anyone on the Remoan side with the same drive and hunger to bring rejoining the EU to the top of the political agenda. What I do see and hear is endless whining about Brexit. Personally, I’d quite like to see this, as I would support a vote to rejoin the EU. My original reply was in highlighting the odd stance of those on here seeking to point score on the contradictory nature of "the Left" apparently being in favour of Irish re-unification whilst simultaneously claiming that because Brexit has made it more likely, it was therefore 'a bad thing'. Most responses I've seen, on here at least, have simply highlighted the somewhat amusing irony of Brexit's role in that and the part that the majority of Conservative and Unionist party supporters played in it! Yes, probably far too soon after such a divisive vote for anyone to think along those lines. I suspect you'd need at least ten years of being fully out before any political party is prepared to go down that route. Interesting to see, however, that even some diehard Brexiteers are shifting towards rejoining the single market and customs union. Perhaps that will be the first step, once the emotion of 'betrayal' has had a few years to die down. Also, there are more and more noises off about more analysis of the first few years of Brexit as we head towards the next election. That will no doubt settle into the old arguments of economy versus immigration/sovereignty, but those arguments will at least have been played out by then for some time, and analysis will be based on what has actually happened rather than what was foretold. If current economic forecasts play out and immigration stats stay the same, that's going to be awkward for Brexiteers.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 20, 2022 13:01:29 GMT
The original point was about "the Left" and re-unification of Ireland, and the apparent contradiction on here as to that position. My reply was simply to point out that the main response on here was not one of contradiction, nor whether it was a good or bad thing, but more one of irony and amusement at the fact that Brexiteers, for whom sovereignty and the integrity of the UK are apparently sacrosanct, have done more to boost all the reunification/independence causes than anybody else! But, yes, the overarching intention for the Tory Party was putting the European question to bed finally. Something which had plagued the Party for decades. The country and its people came a long way second, as we are now seeing with all the attempts to minimise the damage. But all three main parties were committed to in/out referendums on Europe. So, what’s the problem with having one? Whatever the motivation. Enough people clearly wanted to have their say. Which is, of course, the problem that so many Remoaners have. The people said something they didn’t want to hear. Here’s the thing, why isn’t there a new party dedicated to having a new referendum on rejoining the EU? The opposite of UKIP / Brexit Party. Too early? Not enough courage? Farage, for all his (legion) faults, had the balls (and brass neck) to make Brexit the #1 political topic and force a referendum. I don’t see anyone on the Remoan side with the same drive and hunger to bring rejoining the EU to the top of the political agenda. What I do see and hear is endless whining about Brexit. Personally, I’d quite like to see this, as I would support a vote to rejoin the EU. I would think it's obvious to anyone with even a quarter of a brain that irrespective of where we eventually end up we need to start forging a new, collaborative, trustful relationship with the EU as a third party as soon as possible because what we have now is not working and dsmaging.. Unfortunately the Govt won't do that for fear of alienating the ERG and the opposition won't address it for fear of not regaining the vote of a few swing voters in the 'Red Wall". Unfortunately once anyone tries to start that debate the shouts of ' betrayal' and 're-entry via the back door' drown out any sensible discussion. It would be interesting to try and have a sensible debate on here - which allows criticism, proposal abd couterpropsal - but bans phrases such as 'remoaners', "we should never have left', ' headbangers' " the corrupt and undemocratic EU' and several others as being unhelpful and divisive. However I'd give it about 3 posts before we reverted to type so possibly we've got the mess we deserve.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 20, 2022 15:21:48 GMT
But all three main parties were committed to in/out referendums on Europe. So, what’s the problem with having one? Whatever the motivation. Enough people clearly wanted to have their say. Which is, of course, the problem that so many Remoaners have. The people said something they didn’t want to hear. Here’s the thing, why isn’t there a new party dedicated to having a new referendum on rejoining the EU? The opposite of UKIP / Brexit Party. Too early? Not enough courage? Farage, for all his (legion) faults, had the balls (and brass neck) to make Brexit the #1 political topic and force a referendum. I don’t see anyone on the Remoan side with the same drive and hunger to bring rejoining the EU to the top of the political agenda. What I do see and hear is endless whining about Brexit. Personally, I’d quite like to see this, as I would support a vote to rejoin the EU. I would think it's obvious to anyone with even a quarter of a brain that irrespective of where we eventually end up we need to start forging a new, collaborative, trustful relationship with the EU as a third party as soon as possible because what we have now is not working and dsmaging.. Unfortunately the Govt won't do that for fear of alienating the ERG and the opposition won't address it for fear of not regaining the vote of a few swing voters in the 'Red Wall". Unfortunately once anyone tries to start that debate the shouts of ' betrayal' and 're-entry via the back door' drown out any sensible discussion. It would be interesting to try and have a sensible debate on here - which allows criticism, proposal abd couterpropsal - but bans phrases such as 'remoaners', "we should never have left', ' headbangers' " the corrupt and undemocratic EU' and several others as being unhelpful and divisive. However I'd give it about 3 posts before we reverted to type so possibly we've got the mess we deserve. That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 20, 2022 15:59:35 GMT
I would think it's obvious to anyone with even a quarter of a brain that irrespective of where we eventually end up we need to start forging a new, collaborative, trustful relationship with the EU as a third party as soon as possible because what we have now is not working and dsmaging.. Unfortunately the Govt won't do that for fear of alienating the ERG and the opposition won't address it for fear of not regaining the vote of a few swing voters in the 'Red Wall". Unfortunately once anyone tries to start that debate the shouts of ' betrayal' and 're-entry via the back door' drown out any sensible discussion. It would be interesting to try and have a sensible debate on here - which allows criticism, proposal abd couterpropsal - but bans phrases such as 'remoaners', "we should never have left', ' headbangers' " the corrupt and undemocratic EU' and several others as being unhelpful and divisive. However I'd give it about 3 posts before we reverted to type so possibly we've got the mess we deserve. That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments. Except Johnson’s “brilliant” deal means some parts of our country are not economically independent of the EU. So you are wrong. Brexit has happened and we have left the EU. Whether all, none or parts of the country are part of the single market is a completely different issue. Johnson’s deal was for part of the country to be in the single market and to create a trade and customs border down the Irish Sea. He willingly chose that. He won an election on it. Leave voters obviously had no clue that voting leave would result in that as they voted blindly to leave without knowing what cane next. It is in Johnson’s interest to keep remain v leave as the main issue at the next election if he can. And that is what he is seeking by trying to gaslight us all into thinking the deal he proposed, agreed and negotiated is somehow the EU’s fault. We have left the EU. We are not rejoining any time in the next few decades so we now need to work out the best economic and political relationship with them as they are our biggest trading partners, our biggest allies and our closest neighbours. Johnson just wants division and someone to blame for his incompetence.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 20, 2022 16:50:52 GMT
I would think it's obvious to anyone with even a quarter of a brain that irrespective of where we eventually end up we need to start forging a new, collaborative, trustful relationship with the EU as a third party as soon as possible because what we have now is not working and dsmaging.. Unfortunately the Govt won't do that for fear of alienating the ERG and the opposition won't address it for fear of not regaining the vote of a few swing voters in the 'Red Wall". Unfortunately once anyone tries to start that debate the shouts of ' betrayal' and 're-entry via the back door' drown out any sensible discussion. It would be interesting to try and have a sensible debate on here - which allows criticism, proposal abd couterpropsal - but bans phrases such as 'remoaners', "we should never have left', ' headbangers' " the corrupt and undemocratic EU' and several others as being unhelpful and divisive. However I'd give it about 3 posts before we reverted to type so possibly we've got the mess we deserve. That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments. Indeed. So what I think we could do with now is firstly the govt to honour the agreement it signed and so draw a line and start to clear the way for a better relationship by based on trust. And secondly for the architects of leave to start to inentify some real benefits (beyond just more powerful vacuum cleaners) in order to silence the remain claims that we're worse off and that we can all get behind and start to create some real momentum. Then maybe we can start to move beyind the old arguements.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 20, 2022 17:03:09 GMT
That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments. Except Johnson’s “brilliant” deal means some parts of our country are not economically independent of the EU. So you are wrong. Brexit has happened and we have left the EU. Whether all, none or parts of the country are part of the single market is a completely different issue. Johnson’s deal was for part of the country to be in the single market and to create a trade and customs border down the Irish Sea. He willingly chose that. He won an election on it. Leave voters obviously had no clue that voting leave would result in that as they voted blindly to leave without knowing what cane next. It is in Johnson’s interest to keep remain v leave as the main issue at the next election if he can. And that is what he is seeking by trying to gaslight us all into thinking the deal he proposed, agreed and negotiated is somehow the EU’s fault. We have left the EU. We are not rejoining any time in the next few decades so we now need to work out the best economic and political relationship with them as they are our biggest trading partners, our biggest allies and our closest neighbours. Johnson just wants division and someone to blame for his incompetence. The first step is for people to accept where we are economically as a consequence of leaving. This article from the FT (hoping the link works) , gives a pretty blunt assessment: archive.ph/z5DLZ
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 20, 2022 17:28:57 GMT
Except Johnson’s “brilliant” deal means some parts of our country are not economically independent of the EU. So you are wrong. Brexit has happened and we have left the EU. Whether all, none or parts of the country are part of the single market is a completely different issue. Johnson’s deal was for part of the country to be in the single market and to create a trade and customs border down the Irish Sea. He willingly chose that. He won an election on it. Leave voters obviously had no clue that voting leave would result in that as they voted blindly to leave without knowing what cane next. It is in Johnson’s interest to keep remain v leave as the main issue at the next election if he can. And that is what he is seeking by trying to gaslight us all into thinking the deal he proposed, agreed and negotiated is somehow the EU’s fault. We have left the EU. We are not rejoining any time in the next few decades so we now need to work out the best economic and political relationship with them as they are our biggest trading partners, our biggest allies and our closest neighbours. Johnson just wants division and someone to blame for his incompetence. The first step is for people to accept where we are economically as a consequence of leaving. This article from the FT (hoping the link works) , gives a pretty blunt assessment: archive.ph/z5DLZOne of the problems organs like the FT has has been its doom-mongering. It’s made numerous forecasts of economic collapse and disaster that haven’t materialised. It almost acknowledges that in the article. That’s not to say that there aren’t and wont be more negative consequences. But, maybe we could cut back on the hyperbole and be a bit more constructive. And as you say work out what works best. From all sides.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 20, 2022 17:35:14 GMT
Except Johnson’s “brilliant” deal means some parts of our country are not economically independent of the EU. So you are wrong. Brexit has happened and we have left the EU. Whether all, none or parts of the country are part of the single market is a completely different issue. Johnson’s deal was for part of the country to be in the single market and to create a trade and customs border down the Irish Sea. He willingly chose that. He won an election on it. Leave voters obviously had no clue that voting leave would result in that as they voted blindly to leave without knowing what cane next. It is in Johnson’s interest to keep remain v leave as the main issue at the next election if he can. And that is what he is seeking by trying to gaslight us all into thinking the deal he proposed, agreed and negotiated is somehow the EU’s fault. We have left the EU. We are not rejoining any time in the next few decades so we now need to work out the best economic and political relationship with them as they are our biggest trading partners, our biggest allies and our closest neighbours. Johnson just wants division and someone to blame for his incompetence. The first step is for people to accept where we are economically as a consequence of leaving. This article from the FT (hoping the link works) , gives a pretty blunt assessment: archive.ph/z5DLZI have said on this thread I fully accept there is no turning back from the Brexit decision, but I can't understand why we make it so F....ing Hard for the elusive pursuit of "Purity" and poverty The two extracts below sum up perfectly my feelings Even among the Eurosceptics in Johnson’s Cabinet, there is now an acceptance that the UK should be seeking to rebuild economic relations with the EU, including in areas like the Horizon programme, to avoid exacerbating the looming cost of living crisis.
“Would I like to be in a better place on Brexit?” asked one pro-Brexit cabinet member. “Yes, absolutely. But we’ve got to find a way of doing it without it looking like we’re running up the white flag and we’re compromising on sovereignty.”
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 20, 2022 19:03:40 GMT
That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments. Indeed. So what I think we could do with now is firstly the govt to honour the agreement it signed and so draw a line and start to clear the way for a better relationship by based on trust. And secondly for the architects of leave to start to inentify some real benefits (beyond just more powerful vacuum cleaners) in order to silence the remain claims that we're worse off and that we can all get behind and start to create some real momentum. Then maybe we can start to move beyind the old arguements. Or renegotiate the deal if it isn't working for one party. Or advocate for a United Ireland independent of Great Britain.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 20, 2022 19:08:49 GMT
That's a good point Seymour, time we accepted that the UK is a country independent of political and economic union with the EU and looked to the future. Brexit has happened. We need to get over the arguments. Except Johnson’s “brilliant” deal means some parts of our country are not economically independent of the EU. So you are wrong. Brexit has happened and we have left the EU. Whether all, none or parts of the country are part of the single market is a completely different issue. Johnson’s deal was for part of the country to be in the single market and to create a trade and customs border down the Irish Sea. He willingly chose that. He won an election on it. Leave voters obviously had no clue that voting leave would result in that as they voted blindly to leave without knowing what cane next. It is in Johnson’s interest to keep remain v leave as the main issue at the next election if he can. And that is what he is seeking by trying to gaslight us all into thinking the deal he proposed, agreed and negotiated is somehow the EU’s fault. We have left the EU. We are not rejoining any time in the next few decades so we now need to work out the best economic and political relationship with them as they are our biggest trading partners, our biggest allies and our closest neighbours. Johnson just wants division and someone to blame for his incompetence. Sounds like you are saying we need a new Government....I don't think many people have a problem with that. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a movement or leader in which people can have a lot of confidence. Just moaning about the present lot doesn't seem to do it.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 20, 2022 19:09:16 GMT
Indeed. So what I think we could do with now is firstly the govt to honour the agreement it signed and so draw a line and start to clear the way for a better relationship by based on trust. And secondly for the architects of leave to start to inentify some real benefits (beyond just more powerful vacuum cleaners) in order to silence the remain claims that we're worse off and that we can all get behind and start to create some real momentum. Then maybe we can start to move beyind the old arguements. Or renegotiate the deal if it isn't working for one party. Or advocate for a United Ireland independent of Great Britain. Renegotiating deals is like revisiting referenda John. It's an old arguement that was had at the time. It's done. Move on.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 20, 2022 19:16:53 GMT
Or renegotiate the deal if it isn't working for one party. Or advocate for a United Ireland independent of Great Britain. Renegotiating deals is like revisiting referenda John. It's an old arguement that was had at the time. It's done. Move on.
Exactly.
May attempted to avoid this very outcome with her 'deal' because she (at least) had the integrity to know that you don't negoatiate and ultimately agree to an international treaty in the first place, if you don't intend to honour it and was pilloried (and then paid the ultimate price for that integrity) in doing so.
Johnson from the outset, never gave a flying shit about any sort of integrity and did and said whatever he thought would work at the time to get Brexit done, regardless of the almost certain consequences.
Well (according to him) he DID get Brexit done, so now he needs to get on with the Brexit he achieved, lying (no pun intended) in the bed that he made for himself and for us.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 20, 2022 19:21:22 GMT
Or renegotiate the deal if it isn't working for one party. Or advocate for a United Ireland independent of Great Britain. Renegotiating deals is like revisiting referenda John. It's an old arguement that was had at the time. It's done. Move on. I don't think so. If something doesn't work, renegotiate But the real answer is an independent, United Ireland, Seymour
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 20, 2022 19:26:58 GMT
Renegotiating deals is like revisiting referenda John. It's an old arguement that was had at the time. It's done. Move on. I don't think so. If something doesn't work, renegotiate But the real answer is an independent, United Ireland, Seymour Brexit doesn't work for me full stop. But apparently I need to shut up and move on - which is what I'm trying to do. Unfortunately there are leavers who just want to keep the old debates going. If we want a debate about a united Ireland lets have it - out in the open - but not by proxy due to some shit (sorry 'Great Oven Ready",) deal Johnson signed disingenuously.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 20, 2022 19:40:53 GMT
I don't think so. If something doesn't work, renegotiate But the real answer is an independent, United Ireland, Seymour Brexit doesn't work for me full stop. But apparently I need to shut up and move on - which is what I'm trying to do. Unfortunately there are leavers who just want to keep the old debates going. If we want a debate about a united Ireland lets have it - out in the open - but not by proxy due to some shit (sorry 'Great Oven Ready",) deal Johnson signed disingenuously. I don't think so. If something doesn't work, renegotiate But the real answer is an independent, United Ireland. I'm OK to leave the old debates behind, no problem. ( But, You are right Johnson should not have signed May's deal, which was designed to ease our rejoining). People seem to forget that the official Tory position ( exemplified by Cameron and Osborne, ) at the time of the referendum was to Remain. (The Referendum was non party political, if anything as Stokiepmre89 said earlier, it is a left wing issue). I'm sure the Irish question will come up ( again) and be debated.
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 20, 2022 21:14:18 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 21, 2022 9:16:11 GMT
The Telegraph has been pushing hard for de-regulation for some time and, as we know, The Telegraph is Johnson's "real boss". De-regulation was always going to have to be the way forward in a country made £100bn worse off every year as a result of Brexit. It's just cheaper not to have to bother with things like financial, safety and environmental standards, all of which have been, or are being loosened post Brexit. It'd be lovely to identify positive ways forward post-Brexit, but when even the Minister for Brexit Opportunities (ever noticed he often chuckles when announced as that?) has so far struggled to come up with any, it's difficult not to hold those responsible up to scrutiny and say this is all a bit shit, isn't it, especially when the best and most obvious route to reversing all the damage is an infinitesimally small possibility.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 21, 2022 11:29:14 GMT
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