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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 10, 2022 18:17:40 GMT
Figures I think you mean modelling and that will be as accurate as the covid modelling espicially from such an unbiased source but if you want to believe that figure cost of membership would be £32 billion a year now so brexit is already saving us money  We know it's saving us money - £350m a week, £18bn a year, apparently. So, where is it? Where are the tangible benefits? Why have we had to raise NI to generate an additional £36bn for NHS and social care over the next three years? |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 11, 2022 10:23:42 GMT
It seems most folk on here have given up defending Brexit now. Just Mr Coke flying the flag, with the basic view that the stream of bad economic news is "nothing to do with Brexit". Seems like it is slowly revealing itself as the great failure that it was likely to be. I think you are being ungrateful You can now buy a Supercharged Vacuum Cleaner (introduced as an energy saving measure) You can now also get your Blue Passport (if the Passport Office is operating, designed in France and printed in Poland) This then entitles you to quEUe for up to 3 hours at your Airport of choice and have the same misery at your destination That is of course if you haven't been unlucky enough to book with BA who have cancelled hundreds of flights because they have lost 30% of their workforce No not because they've fucked off up the Vale but returned to their own country because they couldn't be arsed going through the UK Visa rigmarole when they can have free movement of employment in mainland Europe Some people are just never grateful Look on the bright side we have plenty of older people who would rather spend their retirement somewhere warmer now available to do all the things the lost EU workers used to do NOT. They keep banging on about improving productivity but have trapped a whole lot of unproductive people in GB. They would have been far better off letting us out and people who want employment in. |
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Post by numpty40 on Jun 11, 2022 10:30:56 GMT
Figures I think you mean modelling and that will be as accurate as the covid modelling espicially from such an unbiased source but if you want to believe that figure cost of membership would be £32 billion a year now so brexit is already saving us money We know it's saving us money - £350m a week, £18bn a year, apparently. So, where is it? Where are the tangible benefits? Why have we had to raise NI to generate an additional £36bn for NHS and social care over the next three years? I'm sure paying people to sit on their arses at home during the pandemic cost a few quid. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 11, 2022 19:35:21 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 11, 2022 19:37:01 GMT
Figures I think you mean modelling and that will be as accurate as the covid modelling espicially from such an unbiased source but if you want to believe that figure cost of membership would be £32 billion a year now so brexit is already saving us money  And how much of that would have been paid straight back to us to build our airports and ports, and subsidise farmers etc? Even the right wing press realise the brexit promises were lies and they were duped. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 11, 2022 23:32:47 GMT
I am truly shocked. When I recently pointed out to Mr Coke that the Public Accounts Committee PAC observed that even DEFRA themselves conceded that their plan to replace CAP was based on "Blind Optimism " and lacking any detail, he assured me I was wrong and CAP was the source of all evil There ridiculous DEFRA plans and reduced supports which will put small farmers out of business compounded by a labour shortage from EU Nationals who worked as seasonal workers Coupled with abandoning all checks on live and processed food imports at the same time as not now being part of the notification process to inform of any dangers to the food chain from animal disease outbreaks The reason being an insufficiency of Vets up to 40% being EU Nationals and 90% of Slaughterhouse Vets who have returned to EU because UK Visa requirements have made it not worth applying The remaining UK Vets time being consumed by completing Export Forms Brexiteers said we would never have to complete which places extra costs on UK Farmers who are competing with their EU counterparts who don't have the same beurocracy because UK has abandoned all checks. Besides all that we can chalk this down to another Brexit Benefit |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 12, 2022 16:16:01 GMT
Our system right now is worse for small farmers though for reasons I (and farmers in the link I posted) have said. The EU system is flawed too, as I said at the outset. I don't agree. Please read this: www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/agriculture-subsidies-after-brexitUnder the new system to replace the CAP, farming subsidy will be far more equitable and targeted better. Naturally those large farming organizations are opposed because they will cease to receive the lion's share of subsidies. Naturally those politicians in the pocket of large land owners are also opposed. Naturally big business like the food processors and supermarkets are worried that they will prevented from screwing small farm owners. Naturally environmentalists, don't think it goes far enough to stop damaging the environment , but many greens will not be happy till we stop using the last ounce, sorry, gram of pesticide, insecticide, fertiliser, etc. and have overbearing independent regulatory controls. I say, ignore all those parties opposed because they have other vested interests, and let the various interests who are trying to create a better system have they chance to build a better, more sustainable UK agriculture. We can build a better UK. Oh dear your post hasn't aged well The Plan you trumpeted in your post is now a Dead Duck Instead of allocating 33% of Budget £800M a year to ELMS Projects its been quiety reduced to less than 1% £50M over 3 years I'm sure when Boris announces his new "Grow for Britain " Policy tomorrow, no doubt with much fanfare and flag waving no mention will be made of this massive U Turn As part of the announcement it is expected to include seasonal Visa's (good luck with that, it worked so well the last time) and the use of Robot's (Could he mean Tory Backbenchers?) for Fruit Picking At least it will provide a minor distraction to International Law Breaking www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/boris-johnson-rewiliding-countryside-b2099031.html |
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 13, 2022 20:36:28 GMT
Figures I think you mean modelling and that will be as accurate as the covid modelling espicially from such an unbiased source but if you want to believe that figure cost of membership would be £32 billion a year now so brexit is already saving us money And how much of that would have been paid straight back to us to build our airports and ports, and subsidise farmers etc? Even the right wing press realise the brexit promises were lies and they were duped. Not £32 billion, I voted to leave we left so thumbs up and just a reminder how about that massive lie that freedom of movement didn't affect wages thats aged well. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 13, 2022 21:18:11 GMT
£32bn a year (really? Not sure I trust their figures on this!) for EU membership,
Or,
A -£100bn a year hit on GDP every year for the next 15?
Hmmmm, which one to pick...
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Post by wannabee on Jun 16, 2022 14:16:29 GMT
Back in the late 19th Century GB under PM Lord Salisbury pursued a Foreign Policy of "Splendid Isolation" (historians argue over how Splendid it was) The Policy was to have no formal Alliances with any other Countries
By default Boris Johnson is pursuing a similar policy as he picks fights with successive Trading Blocks and Countries
1. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill has elicited swift Legal Action against UK from EU with the threat of Sanctions should it reach the Statute Books
2. The threat to pull out of The Council of Europe/ ECHR would pit us against every Country in Europe except Russia and Belarus the only other non members
The act of pulling out of ECHR which underpins the Good Friday Agreement would almost certainly elicit Trade Sanctions from US Co Guarantors with EU of the Good Friday Agreement
3. Lord Geidt's published resignation reason was ostensibly because Johnson asked Geidt if a knowing breach of International Law I.e. WTO Rules would breach the Ministerial Code
If pursued it would pit us against effectively every Country in the world who are members of WTO except 14 rag tag regimes like North Korea, Eritrea,Nauru,Aruba etc
I'm not sure how antagonising pretty much every Country in the World fits into post Brexit "Global Britain"
You would also think any Country contemplating a Trade Deal with UK would have reservations and caution based on UK capacity to break International Law without any concern
An old idiom "Britania Rules the Waves" might legitimately be rearranged to "Britania Waves the Rules"
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Post by skemstokie on Jun 17, 2022 14:57:02 GMT
Diesel prices highest in western Europe,petrol prices dearest again apart from Finland.
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Post by skemstokie on Jun 17, 2022 14:59:53 GMT
Diesel prices highest in western Europe,petrol the same with only Finland higher.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 17, 2022 15:16:59 GMT
Back in the late 19th Century GB under PM Lord Salisbury pursued a Foreign Policy of "Splendid Isolation" (historians argue over how Splendid it was) The Policy was to have no formal Alliances with any other Countries By default Boris Johnson is pursuing a similar policy as he picks fights with successive Trading Blocks and Countries 1. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill has elicited swift Legal Action against UK from EU with the threat of Sanctions should it reach the Statute Books 2. The threat to pull out of The Council of Europe/ ECHR would pit us against every Country in Europe except Russia and Belarus the only other non members The act of pulling out of ECHR which underpins the Good Friday Agreement would almost certainly elicit Trade Sanctions from US Co Guarantors with EU of the Good Friday Agreement 3. Lord Geidt's published resignation reason was ostensibly because Johnson asked Geidt if a knowing breach of International Law I.e. WTO Rules would breach the Ministerial Code If pursued it would pit us against effectively every Country in the world who are members of WTO except 14 rag tag regimes like North Korea, Eritrea,Nauru,Aruba etc I'm not sure how antagonising pretty much every Country in the World fits into post Brexit "Global Britain" You would also think any Country contemplating a Trade Deal with UK would have reservations and caution based on UK capacity to break International Law without any concern An old idiom "Britania Rules the Waves" might legitimately be rearranged to "Britania Waves the Rules" Oh dear. Two things. You really shouldn’t try and pass off a well know pun as something you’ve come up with. And… You really should spell it correctly. Must try harder. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 17, 2022 15:38:06 GMT
Back in the late 19th Century GB under PM Lord Salisbury pursued a Foreign Policy of "Splendid Isolation" (historians argue over how Splendid it was) The Policy was to have no formal Alliances with any other Countries By default Boris Johnson is pursuing a similar policy as he picks fights with successive Trading Blocks and Countries 1. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill has elicited swift Legal Action against UK from EU with the threat of Sanctions should it reach the Statute Books 2. The threat to pull out of The Council of Europe/ ECHR would pit us against every Country in Europe except Russia and Belarus the only other non members The act of pulling out of ECHR which underpins the Good Friday Agreement would almost certainly elicit Trade Sanctions from US Co Guarantors with EU of the Good Friday Agreement 3. Lord Geidt's published resignation reason was ostensibly because Johnson asked Geidt if a knowing breach of International Law I.e. WTO Rules would breach the Ministerial Code If pursued it would pit us against effectively every Country in the world who are members of WTO except 14 rag tag regimes like North Korea, Eritrea,Nauru,Aruba etc I'm not sure how antagonising pretty much every Country in the World fits into post Brexit "Global Britain" You would also think any Country contemplating a Trade Deal with UK would have reservations and caution based on UK capacity to break International Law without any concern An old idiom "Britania Rules the Waves" might legitimately be rearranged to "Britania Waves the Rules" Oh dear. Two things. You really shouldn’t try and pass off a well know pun as something you’ve come up with. And… You really should spell it correctly. Must try harder. As I have said to you previously, frequently your contribution is limited to argumentum ad hominem Must try alternative |
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 17, 2022 15:45:26 GMT
Oh dear. Two things. You really shouldn’t try and pass off a well know pun as something you’ve come up with. And… You really should spell it correctly. Must try harder. As I have said to you previously, frequently your contribution is limited to argumentum ad hominem Must try alternative Must spell better. Probably, must smell better too. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 17, 2022 18:40:08 GMT
As I have said to you previously, frequently your contribution is limited to argumentum ad hominem Must try alternative Must spell better. Probably, must smell better too. Now you've switched to Tu Quoque You should try Coundown your wasted on here |
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Post by prettything on Jun 17, 2022 19:04:01 GMT
Back in the late 19th Century GB under PM Lord Salisbury pursued a Foreign Policy of "Splendid Isolation" (historians argue over how Splendid it was) The Policy was to have no formal Alliances with any other Countries By default Boris Johnson is pursuing a similar policy as he picks fights with successive Trading Blocks and Countries 1. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill has elicited swift Legal Action against UK from EU with the threat of Sanctions should it reach the Statute Books 2. The threat to pull out of The Council of Europe/ ECHR would pit us against every Country in Europe except Russia and Belarus the only other non members The act of pulling out of ECHR which underpins the Good Friday Agreement would almost certainly elicit Trade Sanctions from US Co Guarantors with EU of the Good Friday Agreement 3. Lord Geidt's published resignation reason was ostensibly because Johnson asked Geidt if a knowing breach of International Law I.e. WTO Rules would breach the Ministerial Code If pursued it would pit us against effectively every Country in the world who are members of WTO except 14 rag tag regimes like North Korea, Eritrea,Nauru,Aruba etc I'm not sure how antagonising pretty much every Country in the World fits into post Brexit "Global Britain" You would also think any Country contemplating a Trade Deal with UK would have reservations and caution based on UK capacity to break International Law without any concern An old idiom "Britania Rules the Waves" might legitimately be rearranged to "Britania Waves the Rules" Oh dear. Two things. You really shouldn’t try and pass off a well know pun as something you’ve come up with. And… You really should spell it correctly. Must try harder. What a contribution, Partick. Thanks for that. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 17, 2022 20:43:56 GMT
Must spell better. Probably, must smell better too. Now you've switched to Tu Quoque You should try Coundown your wasted on here I’ll stick to Wordle if that is ok with you. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 17, 2022 20:44:46 GMT
Oh dear. Two things. You really shouldn’t try and pass off a well know pun as something you’ve come up with. And… You really should spell it correctly. Must try harder. What a contribution, Partick. Thanks for that. And thank you too for your sterling contribution. Well done. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 17, 2022 23:56:50 GMT
What a contribution, Partick. Thanks for that. And thank you too for your sterling contribution. Well done. You may consider yourself a Wordsman I doubt if anyone has ever considered you a Swordsman Perhaps this may explain your inadequacy |
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Post by prettything on Jun 17, 2022 23:58:22 GMT
What a contribution, Partick. Thanks for that. And thank you too for your sterling contribution. Well done. No problem, fella. I just call it like I see it. |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 18, 2022 10:36:34 GMT
The government this week announced it wants farmers to grow more . Not much point if you can't harvest it: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-61612882"The May 2022 Food Labour Market Survey found that 49% of growers and food manufacturers had reduced their output due to a lack of workers" |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 18, 2022 14:41:26 GMT
The government this week announced it wants farmers to grow more . Not much point if you can't harvest it: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-61612882"The May 2022 Food Labour Market Survey found that 49% of growers and food manufacturers had reduced their output due to a lack of workers"" Grow for Britain " nice soundbite and for the TV to follow Boris around driving a Tractor. Later he's inspecting courgettes, I know where I'd like him to put it |
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Post by muggleton on Jun 18, 2022 19:52:37 GMT
As someone who splits my time between Stoke and NI, the only bit of Brexit that isn't completely shite are the mitigations in the NI Protocol which shield NI from the worst excesses of a disastrous decision. And even at that, it has upset the delicate political balance and hard-won peace, humiliated the unionist community and complicated business and daily life in ways that would be completely unnecessary without Brexit.
So even the least worst bit of Brexit is itself a messy compromise only made necessary by Brexit itself. And it economically benefits a tiny population of 1.9m (while humiliating the approx 40% of them most loyal to Britain) at the expense of rUK, meaning a huge loss overall to the UK economy. An entirely predictable shambles.
We're a long way away from a collective acceptance that Brexit was a mistake, but we'll get there eventually.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 18, 2022 20:33:33 GMT
As someone who splits my time between Stoke and NI, the only bit of Brexit that isn't completely shite are the mitigations in the NI Protocol which shield NI from the worst excesses of a disastrous decision. And even at that, it has upset the delicate political balance and hard-won peace, humiliated the unionist community and complicated business and daily life in ways that would be completely unnecessary without Brexit. So even the least worst bit of Brexit is itself a messy compromise only made necessary by Brexit itself. And it economically benefits a tiny population of 1.9m (while humiliating the approx 40% of them most loyal to Britain) at the expense of rUK, meaning a huge loss overall to the UK economy. An entirely predictable shambles. We're a long way away from a collective acceptance that Brexit was a mistake, but we'll get there eventually. As someone who used to be a member of the Labour Party, and to the left of the membership , when the Labour Party used to represent and fight for the working class.....perhaps we have reached the stage in history in which the only solution to the Irish question is a United Ireland , independent of the UK. I would have thought that those who think they are on the the left would support this, traditionally they have been critical of English/ British imperialism and perhaps the issue of the status of Ireland is one of the last problems that Imperiaist Britain has to deal with.....a very difficult question....it seems to me that those on the left have more difficulty coming to terms with this than others.....as we move towards a more enlightened future perhaps you will have to come to terms with a united, independent Ireland....it won't please everyone , but political solutions to complicated and historic issues rarely do. |
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Post by muggleton on Jun 18, 2022 21:36:16 GMT
As someone who splits my time between Stoke and NI, the only bit of Brexit that isn't completely shite are the mitigations in the NI Protocol which shield NI from the worst excesses of a disastrous decision. And even at that, it has upset the delicate political balance and hard-won peace, humiliated the unionist community and complicated business and daily life in ways that would be completely unnecessary without Brexit. So even the least worst bit of Brexit is itself a messy compromise only made necessary by Brexit itself. And it economically benefits a tiny population of 1.9m (while humiliating the approx 40% of them most loyal to Britain) at the expense of rUK, meaning a huge loss overall to the UK economy. An entirely predictable shambles. We're a long way away from a collective acceptance that Brexit was a mistake, but we'll get there eventually. As someone who used to be a member of the Labour Party, and to the left of the membership , when the Labour Party used to represent and fight for the working class.....perhaps we have reached the stage in history in which the only solution to the Irish question is a United Ireland , independent of the UK. I would have thought that those who think they are on the the left would support this, traditionally they have been critical of English/ British imperialism and perhaps the issue of the status of Ireland is one of the last problems that Imperiaist Britain has to deal with.....a very difficult question....it seems to me that those on the left have more difficulty coming to terms with this than others.....as we move towards a more enlightened future perhaps you will have to come to terms with a united, independent Ireland....it won't please everyone , but political solutions to complicated and historic issues rarely do. That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 19, 2022 1:39:36 GMT
As someone who used to be a member of the Labour Party, and to the left of the membership , when the Labour Party used to represent and fight for the working class.....perhaps we have reached the stage in history in which the only solution to the Irish question is a United Ireland , independent of the UK. I would have thought that those who think they are on the the left would support this, traditionally they have been critical of English/ British imperialism and perhaps the issue of the status of Ireland is one of the last problems that Imperiaist Britain has to deal with.....a very difficult question....it seems to me that those on the left have more difficulty coming to terms with this than others.....as we move towards a more enlightened future perhaps you will have to come to terms with a united, independent Ireland....it won't please everyone , but political solutions to complicated and historic issues rarely do. That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. It's great to get the perspecive of somebody on the ground, so to speak. My views expressed here are just that and are in no way meant to offend Brexit was essentially about English Nationalism and scant regard was given to the consequences of the Union. An interesting Article written just before the Referendum in my view is both foresightful and accurate as to the outcome in the event of a Yes Vote www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/18/england-eu-referendum-brexitOn the mainland very little discussion or debate was given over to the consequences to the Union Generally or NI in particular Some individuals that tried to raise the issue were dismissed as part of the general Project Fear Mob It did however very much exorcise those in the ROI and in NI. So much so that the ROI Government successfully lobied Brussels with US support to put the Land Border front and centre of Exit negotiations to be resolved before any Trade Discussions could commence This was compatable with the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement underpinned by membership of ECHR which UK Government adopted en block by passing the Human Rights Act 1998 Like all Peace Agreements their is compromise and to a certain extent fudge, but it was sufficient for Green, Orange or neither to consider themselves British, Irish or European. In my view the DUP has ill served its Community and has been spectacularly on the wrong side of the argument for the past 25 years on the important issues. It was the only party in NI to oppose the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. It was the only Party in NI to support and campaign for Brexit, When May foolishly called a General Election and it found itself holding the Balance of Power in UK Parliament It opposed May's UK wide "Backstop" solution which would have put NI in the same position as the rest of the UK which is their ideological stance. Oh no instead of saving face from supporting Brexit they instead feted Boris in Belfast who promised them something which he could never nor intended to deliver. The hypocrisy of the ideological stance is not lost on many when DUP have no problem being different to UK when it comes to Social Issues like Abortion, LGBT+ Rights etc and they use the "Petition of Concern" within the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement to Bloc the majority and moral opinion The Protocol is now the latest and real source of angst to the vast majority of Unionists in NI as its seen as a separation and being different to GB. A ladder needs to be built to allow the DUP to climb down from its current position. I cannot see this happening in the short term. Economically the Protocol gives NI a unique advantage to freely export to UK and EU and that economic Benefit is already filtering through. Businesses are beginning to tentatively voice positive notices about the Protocol but understandably they don't want to raise their heads too far above the precipice in a divided community Imports from UK are a "Real Problem " and are the heart of the Unionist angst, and rightly so. Truss's Red/Green Lanes would solve this and almost identically proposed by Sefcovic in October 2021. On the face of it then it could be resolved quite quickly and allow the DUP to claim a Victory, but no once again English Nationalism is preventing a solution because inextricably mixed in the Protocol is ECHR and State Aid Rules which impinges on GB so once again NI is being used as a pawn Longer term, I think you reluctantly due to inevitable demographics, me Idealogically favour a United Ireland You really only have to look at a map to see that it's logical. I would favour a VERY long lead in period. Perhaps a staged situation First by actually using the North /South Institutions that were set up under the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Farming particularly Dairy is an All ireland Economy. All of NI Electricity is supplied from ROI The Border Counties on both sides are entirely seemless Nevertheless we have seen with Brexit it is a blunt and polarising instrument. The convergence towards the centre as evidenced by Alliance results in recent Assembly Elections is most welcome and hopefully increase. The push towards more integrated Education is also to be welcomed. Health care on both sides is an issue and could be a source of deeper cooperation The only specialist Children's Hospital on either side is in Dublin and caters to all children on the island The New replacement hospital at a cost of €2B+ should be integrated into both health services David Ferhety is one of its biggest fund raisers A Referendum now of even within the next 5/10 years would only further polarise. Use North/South institutions to copperplate on matters of mutual interest and subliminally build trust Apologies for such a long post |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 19, 2022 5:47:57 GMT
As someone who used to be a member of the Labour Party, and to the left of the membership , when the Labour Party used to represent and fight for the working class.....perhaps we have reached the stage in history in which the only solution to the Irish question is a United Ireland , independent of the UK. I would have thought that those who think they are on the the left would support this, traditionally they have been critical of English/ British imperialism and perhaps the issue of the status of Ireland is one of the last problems that Imperiaist Britain has to deal with.....a very difficult question....it seems to me that those on the left have more difficulty coming to terms with this than others.....as we move towards a more enlightened future perhaps you will have to come to terms with a united, independent Ireland....it won't please everyone , but political solutions to complicated and historic issues rarely do. That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. It is not a given that a United Ireland would lead to a return to open violence....so perhaps that is the way forward. Obviously the Unionists would not be happy, may feel betrayed and may go on to suffer from being a minority in a country in which they would be symbols and representative of previous oppressors...but unfortunately that may be the inevitable cost of "English" imperialism.....unless the EU ( which seems to be the answer to most issues) can solve the problem. |
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 19, 2022 7:40:00 GMT
That's my preferred outcome on balance as it happens, and Brexit has certainly strengthened the case for it. But after growing up with murder and mayhem I prioritise peace above anything, so any future constitutional changes have to respect the minority who will inevitably feel disenfranchised. I've always felt that push factors from Westminster would be a bigger influence on Irish unity than domestic politics, but it mustn't be forced through in a rush for the sake of English political expediency. Brexit has been humiliating for the British community in NI, as they've been lied to and abandoned by the state they're *very* loyal to. And this humiliation is exacerbated by the growing push for unification, and the obvious indifference to their position in rUK. Ironically the NI Protocol is their best hope of saving the union (as opposed to Brexit, the union's biggest threat) as it gives NI a unique competitive advantage. I'd like to exploit that advantage for a generation to make NI less of an economic burden, then people in NI can collectively decide their own future from a stronger position than now. Demographics at that stage make a pro-unity majority more likely, and it gives more time for scars from the Troubles t9 heal. It is not a given that a United Ireland would lead to a return to open violence....so perhaps that is the way forward. Obviously the Unionists would not be happy, may feel betrayed and may go on to suffer from being a minority in a country in which they would be symbols and representative of previous oppressors...but unfortunately that may be the inevitable cost of "English" imperialism.....unless the EU ( which seems to be the answer to most issues) can solve the problem. If Scotland does become independent they should be given Northern Ireland as part of the separation deal and then we can let Scotland and Ireland sort out future arrangements. After all, the unionist presence is a legacy of King James (a Scot) and his Plantation of Ulster which saw, predominantly Scots hope across the Irish Sea to set up shop in the north of Ireland. So, it’s really a Scots / Irish thing in the North. England’s interest was largely in the south, which of course, ended a hundred years ago. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 19, 2022 8:14:14 GMT
It is not a given that a United Ireland would lead to a return to open violence....so perhaps that is the way forward. Obviously the Unionists would not be happy, may feel betrayed and may go on to suffer from being a minority in a country in which they would be symbols and representative of previous oppressors...but unfortunately that may be the inevitable cost of "English" imperialism.....unless the EU ( which seems to be the answer to most issues) can solve the problem. If Scotland does become independent they should be given Northern Ireland as part of the separation deal and then we can let Scotland and Ireland sort out future arrangements. After all, the unionist presence is a legacy of King James (a Scot) and his Plantation of Ulster which saw, predominantly Scots hope across the Irish Sea to set up shop in the north of Ireland. So, it’s really a Scots / Irish thing in the North. England’s interest was largely in the south, which of course, ended a hundred years ago. I agree Partick, which is why I put "English" in inverted commas, I can recall you explaining this before.......I don't think we can put everything in one short post. Prior to the Referendum, I did believe and say that Northern Ireland , Gibraltar ( eventually) and even the Falklands would be issues following the Referendum. It seems to me the " Left" used to argue for a United Ireland ( Corbyn?)...but now ( on here) seem to be saying that Brexit has brought the possibility about, and that's a bad thing. Edit, when I said " agree", I meant about your explanation of the history.....I think the two issues would and should be treated separately....and in my opinion, from my English perspective, NI needs attention first ( Your idea is interesting.....was it tongue in cheek and inconceivable?) |
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