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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 4, 2022 10:39:38 GMT
Our system right now is worse for small farmers though for reasons I (and farmers in the link I posted) have said. The EU system is flawed too, as I said at the outset. I don't agree. Please read this: www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/agriculture-subsidies-after-brexitUnder the new system to replace the CAP, farming subsidy will be far more equitable and targeted better. Naturally those large farming organizations are opposed because they will cease to receive the lion's share of subsidies. Naturally those politicians in the pocket of large land owners are also opposed. Naturally big business like the food processors and supermarkets are worried that they will prevented from screwing small farm owners. Naturally environmentalists, don't think it goes far enough to stop damaging the environment , but many greens will not be happy till we stop using the last ounce, sorry, gram of pesticide, insecticide, fertiliser, etc. and have overbearing independent regulatory controls. I say, ignore all those parties opposed because they have other vested interests, and let the various interests who are trying to create a better system have they chance to build a better, more sustainable UK agriculture. We can build a better UK. You also disagree with farmers then, including small farmers who say things are worse now than ever before. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/farms-cap-george-eustice-brexit-b1989329.html?ampThe new system clearly isn’t working. It so bad, parts of the brexit trading arrangements are yet to be implemented and keep being delayed! |
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 4, 2022 12:51:11 GMT
I don't agree. Please read this: www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/agriculture-subsidies-after-brexitUnder the new system to replace the CAP, farming subsidy will be far more equitable and targeted better. Naturally those large farming organizations are opposed because they will cease to receive the lion's share of subsidies. Naturally those politicians in the pocket of large land owners are also opposed. Naturally big business like the food processors and supermarkets are worried that they will prevented from screwing small farm owners. Naturally environmentalists, don't think it goes far enough to stop damaging the environment , but many greens will not be happy till we stop using the last ounce, sorry, gram of pesticide, insecticide, fertiliser, etc. and have overbearing independent regulatory controls. I say, ignore all those parties opposed because they have other vested interests, and let the various interests who are trying to create a better system have they chance to build a better, more sustainable UK agriculture. We can build a better UK. You also disagree with farmers then, including small farmers who say things are worse now than ever before. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/farms-cap-george-eustice-brexit-b1989329.html?ampThe new system clearly isn’t working. It so bad, parts of the brexit trading arrangements are yet to be implemented and keep being delayed! The Independent only prints anti Brexit propaganda. As I have explained before in previous posts, the new system is being phased in over 7 years, starting last year till 2028, so we are still largely working to the EU CAP system. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 4, 2022 13:08:46 GMT
The Independent only prints anti Brexit propaganda. As I have explained before in previous posts, the new system is being phased in over 7 years, starting last year till 2028, so we are still largely working to the EU CAP system. I didn’t know the majority of farmers worked for the Independent |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 4, 2022 17:54:23 GMT
I could quote Jerimiah 5:21 or even John Heywood but I doubt it would make the slightest difference. I'm also certain you are very familiar with these quotations Your previous post was hardly a debate on crop pickers but your point on a minority being subject to exploitation and abuse is well made and should be a matter of criminal investigation but hardly a reason to dispense with the practice entirely The reality is that the change in practice is that less home grown production of food crops, less choice to consumers and more reliance on Food Imports Moreover your post was a characteristic tirade of anti EU Vitriol in this case against CAP I have comprehensively given you evidentiary evidence that Politicians, Farmers, Environmentalists, Wildlfe Groups, Horticulturalists Taxpayers and Consumers have any belief that UK alternative to CAP will be anything but a retrograde step and it is far inferior to CAP You dismiss the many and varied authoritive sources I have given you from Politicians, Farmers, Environmentalists etc in favour of the one true source you claim has supreme omnipotence the Environmental Agency and apparently you worked for Well if they are the Gold Standard they are doing a crap job www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/apr/21/breaches-of-english-farm-pollution-laws-rise-as-rules-remain-largely-unenforcedOn a side note if the Environmental Agency who you claim drafted the Agriculture Bill why is it being so Universally ridiculed Your standard catch all get out Clause is that it will take several years for UK to properly unshackle from EU with the caveat that it will be dependent on future UK Governments making the correct decisions This is just wishful thinking and closes down any debate I am one who used to support membership of EEC, but gradually changed my views during decades of experience in industry, managing potentially highly polluting industries, working closely with organizations like the EA (not "for" the EA), chaired a European committee for three years, achieved ISO14001 (and BS7750) and base my opinion on facts not opinions. It is patently obvious that it will take many years to reverse nearly half a century of EEC/EU membership. It is also patently obvious that the only success of the EU CAP is to ensure huge amounts of food are produced at the expense of tax payers and damage to the environment. You choose to criticise the UK EA and fail to realise the mess Europe is in generally with river pollution, largely due to the CAP. This article is 3 years old, but I doubt much has changed since before the pandemic: www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/03/most-of-europes-rivers-and-lakes-fail-water-quality-tests-reportIt is not a get out to say the future depends on future UK government, but pointing out that the future is now in the UK people's own hands and not in the hands of a European government dominated by corporate interests. OK I'm beginning to understand how this works now According to you the experts I quoted who are leaders in their respective Industries are merely expressing an opion. You on the other hand as you Chaired a European Committee for 3 years are stating facts Gotya I personally didn't criticise the EA as such, the link to Article I posted gave many examples of why it's not fit for purpose Let me just quote one of many examples contained in the Article
"Despite the farming rules for water having been implemented more than four years ago, and the rising number of breaches being documented, the Environment Agency has yet to issue any fines or prosecute anyone under the legislation "Your ultimate proposition is that it will take several years to untangle UK, specifically CAP in this instance but EU in General with the caveat that it will require correct decisions from successive UK Governments Well who can debate that as nobody can predict the future with any certainty with the added bonus if it doesn't work out how you want or expect you can blame poor decision making, win win What I do know is that currently the Transition is a Cluster fuck with many of the rules and obligations signed up to yet to be implemented It will be interesting to see if NIs GDP (within the Single Market) continues to outperform the other countries in the Union (Traditionally its been the worst) Increasingly as evidenced by YouGov Polls a growing number of people (majority) have got "Buyers Remorse " in voting for Brexit yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-the-government-is-handling-the-issue-of-brexit-in-the-uk |
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 4, 2022 19:17:13 GMT
I am one who used to support membership of EEC, but gradually changed my views during decades of experience in industry, managing potentially highly polluting industries, working closely with organizations like the EA (not "for" the EA), chaired a European committee for three years, achieved ISO14001 (and BS7750) and base my opinion on facts not opinions. It is patently obvious that it will take many years to reverse nearly half a century of EEC/EU membership. It is also patently obvious that the only success of the EU CAP is to ensure huge amounts of food are produced at the expense of tax payers and damage to the environment. You choose to criticise the UK EA and fail to realise the mess Europe is in generally with river pollution, largely due to the CAP. This article is 3 years old, but I doubt much has changed since before the pandemic: www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/03/most-of-europes-rivers-and-lakes-fail-water-quality-tests-reportIt is not a get out to say the future depends on future UK government, but pointing out that the future is now in the UK people's own hands and not in the hands of a European government dominated by corporate interests. OK I'm beginning to understand how this works now According to you the experts I quoted who are leaders in their respective Industries are merely expressing an opion. You on the other hand as you Chaired a European Committee for 3 years are stating facts Gotya I personally didn't criticise the EA as such, the link to Article I posted gave many examples of why it's not fit for purpose Let me just quote one of many examples contained in the Article
"Despite the farming rules for water having been implemented more than four years ago, and the rising number of breaches being documented, the Environment Agency has yet to issue any fines or prosecute anyone under the legislation "Your ultimate proposition is that it will take several years to untangle UK, specifically CAP in this instance but EU in General with the caveat that it will require correct decisions from successive UK Governments Well who can debate that as nobody can predict the future with any certainty with the added bonus if it doesn't work out how you want or expect you can blame poor decision making, win win What I do know is that currently the Transition is a Cluster fuck with many of the rules and obligations signed up to yet to be implemented It will be interesting to see if NIs GDP (within the Single Market) continues to outperform the other countries in the Union (Traditionally its been the worst) Increasingly as evidenced by YouGov Polls a growing number of people (majority) have got "Buyers Remorse " in voting for Brexit yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-the-government-is-handling-the-issue-of-brexit-in-the-ukPersonally I think Brexit is going quite well so far despite the present government, see page 1,464: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7480003/threadMaybe we should credit NI for UK's GDP performance since leaving the EU? |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 4, 2022 19:22:34 GMT
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but an increasing number of people disagree with you
I really have no idea what you mean in your last line⅖
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 5, 2022 9:23:35 GMT
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but an increasing number of people disagree with you I really have no idea what you mean in your last line⅖ What I meant was maybe we should be grateful to NI for the UK having the second best growth in the G7 so far this year: www.oecd.org/newsroom/gdp-growth-first-quarter-2022-oecd.htm |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 5, 2022 12:01:56 GMT
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but an increasing number of people disagree with you I really have no idea what you mean in your last line⅖ What I meant was maybe we should be grateful to NI for the UK having the second best growth in the G7 so far this year: www.oecd.org/newsroom/gdp-growth-first-quarter-2022-oecd.htmThanks for the clarification It's a bit like trying to win the tallest Dwarf contest at the moment The United Kingdom exceeded its pre-pandemic (Q4 2019) level of GDP for the first time in Q1 2022, by 0.7%. In the United States, France and Canada, GDP remained higher than before the pandemic; these countries exceeded their Q4 2019 GDP levels for the first time in the second, third and fourth quarters of 2021 respectively. However, in Germany, Italy and Japan,GDP was still below pre-pandemic levels (by 1.0%, 0.4% and 0.7% respectively) in Q1 So in the middle I'd suggest No Country in G7 doing particularly well with only Germany currently in positive growth quarter on quarter so more a time for negotiations rather than chest thumping and threatening Trade Wars Germany was the only G7 country where the pace of growth increased, with GDP growth of 0.2% in the first quarter of 2022 compared with a contraction of 0.3% in the previous quarter.
Just to add a bit of Pathos to proceedings Arch Brexiteer and single-handedly got more things factually wrong than any other during Brexit debate www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/04/should-have-stayed-single-market-rejoining-now-would-madness/Finally for a bit of hilarity Express readers discover Free Movement Rules don't just cover Johnny Foreigners coming to Blighty www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1620510/british-tourists-EU-travellers-airport-queues-Spain/amp |
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 5, 2022 12:31:48 GMT
the penny is dropping for even for dreadful papers such as the express
and even the telegraph is working out subtle manoeuvres without trying to lose face
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Post by questionable on Jun 5, 2022 13:03:39 GMT
I don't care either about the nationality of people who do jobs there is a shortage of British people wanting to do. But I think it is fairer to treat all nationalities equal and not favour EU nationalities. With the exception of course for those nations we have a special relationship with, such as the Irish, British citizens from around the world like Hong Kong, and of course Commonwealth countries. Farmers are generally being exploited by supermarket chains. Under the CAP small farmers across Europe have been going out of business, a system we are better to be out of and create a system that suits the UK best. It's the EU system that is failing small farmers: www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/24/fewer-bigger-more-intensive-eu-vows-to-stem-drastic-loss-of-small-farmsOur system right now is worse for small farmers though for reasons I (and farmers in the link I posted) have said. The EU system is flawed too, as I said at the outset. My late father in law always said “you’ll never see a poor farmer” and he was bang on, there’s loads surrounding us and yes admittedly they don’t half put the hours in but they’re seriously very comfortable finances wise. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 5, 2022 16:51:15 GMT
Our system right now is worse for small farmers though for reasons I (and farmers in the link I posted) have said. The EU system is flawed too, as I said at the outset. My late father in law always said “you’ll never see a poor farmer” and he was bang on, there’s loads surrounding us and yes admittedly they don’t half put the hours in but they’re seriously very comfortable finances wise. Good for them. Farmers do an absolutely essential job. Our government should be trying to make things easier for them, no harder. |
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 5, 2022 19:16:58 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 5, 2022 21:38:34 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Jun 6, 2022 2:52:50 GMT
I have noticed over the last short while that there has been a gradual drip drip of Arch Brexiteers like Frost attempting to try and distance themselves from the shitshow they have created Some of their comments are so bizarre and brazen that betray either conscious or "Inadvertent " lying or ignorence I quote from the Whiskey Salesman Frost Writing in a foreword to a report by the centre-right thinktank Policy Exchange, he also challenged the Irish government’s focus on the “all-island” economy, which he said was not consequential but had become a political tool.
This fundamentally ignores the key objectives of the Good Friday Agreement We were established under the terms of the 1998 Belfast Agreement, as the all-island Trade & Business Development Body, with the remit to ‘exchange information and co-ordinate work on trade, business development and related matters, in areas where the two administrations specifically agree it would be in their mutual interest’.intertradeireland.com/corporate-information/our-strategyDaniel Hannan has also in recent days decided to rewrite his personal history m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/prominent-brexiteer-daniel-hannan-admits-staying-in-single-market-would-have-saved-us-a-lot-of-trouble-41722813.htmlEven today Grant Chaps in interviews while at pains to point out that it wasn't his responsibility to sort out the Travel chaos but the Airlines and Airport Operators he wasn't calling for relaxation of Immigration Rules and indeed he himself had not voted for Brexit Sinking, Rats, Abandoning, Ships springs to mind |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 6, 2022 21:32:38 GMT
So as the Brexit failings stack up it has now failed in its primary aim, uniting the Tory Party.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 8, 2022 17:13:00 GMT
Interesting... www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-61720276I suspect most people, who are not Brexit fanatics, would like the idea of common charging equipment. For "stifle innovation", perhaps we should read "reduce the profits which we normally generate through forcing people to buy new additional gear every time they upgrade or switch phone/equipment". Other than doing something different for the sake of it, isn't this putting profits before people once again? |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 8, 2022 18:15:32 GMT
It’s going fine
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 9, 2022 13:28:09 GMT
the future's grim
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 9, 2022 15:53:07 GMT
If British people won’t do your so called “British jobs” (I just call them jobs and I don’t care about the nationality of who does a job, unlike brexiteers), like fruit picking hence the massive shortage, why is that a good thing? I’d prefer enough people to do the jobs available and I couldn’t care less where the person is from who is doing it. As long as the minimum wage is high enough, no Brits can be undercut by cheap labour. It limits inflation also and keeps food prices down and keeps farmers profitable. Your system of not enough fruit pickers means small farmers go out of business and only the huge farms with large enough economies of scale will be able to survive. And it increases costs for farmers, which is passed on to the consumers and further increases inflation. Brexit makes these difficult times that bit more expensive. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall Gordon Brown being a “brexiteer” and he was well into British jobs for British workers |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 9, 2022 16:16:43 GMT
If British people won’t do your so called “British jobs” (I just call them jobs and I don’t care about the nationality of who does a job, unlike brexiteers), like fruit picking hence the massive shortage, why is that a good thing? I’d prefer enough people to do the jobs available and I couldn’t care less where the person is from who is doing it. As long as the minimum wage is high enough, no Brits can be undercut by cheap labour. It limits inflation also and keeps food prices down and keeps farmers profitable. Your system of not enough fruit pickers means small farmers go out of business and only the huge farms with large enough economies of scale will be able to survive. And it increases costs for farmers, which is passed on to the consumers and further increases inflation. Brexit makes these difficult times that bit more expensive. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall Gordon Brown being a “brexiteer” and he was well into British jobs for British workersHe may well have been. But we don’t have any brits willing to pick fruit. So is the best solution: A) let the fruit rot and farmers lose lots of money so charge more to to make enough money to survive, so that supermarkets find it cheaper to import the same food from abroad rather than buy british and the farmer loses out more, or supermarkets pay more to buy british and then pass on the extra costs to consumers with price rises, and food is unnecessarily wasted; or B) employ people to pick the fruit so they receive a wage, pay taxes, and farmers make more money (and pay more taxes) and no food is wasted, and food prices don’t increase so much meaning less inflation Coke will tell me A is better and that brexit has not led to increased prices! |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 9, 2022 17:48:50 GMT
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Post by 4372 on Jun 9, 2022 18:09:25 GMT
It seems most folk on here have given up defending Brexit now. Just Mr Coke flying the flag, with the basic view that the stream of bad economic news is "nothing to do with Brexit". Seems like it is slowly revealing itself as the great failure that it was likely to be.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 9, 2022 18:41:08 GMT
He might be a Professor, the future might be grim and Brexit is definitely a bag of shite. However despite all that we still haven't 'literally' shot ourselves in the foot. However if Johnson keeps going with regard to the protocol kneecappings might yet become commonplace again. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 9, 2022 18:54:01 GMT
So why is London growing then Is that despite or because of brexit or has brexit got fuck all to do with it |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 19:10:44 GMT
It seems most folk on here have given up defending Brexit now. Just Mr Coke flying the flag, with the basic view that the stream of bad economic news is "nothing to do with Brexit". Seems like it is slowly revealing itself as the great failure that it was likely to be. I think you are being ungrateful You can now buy a Supercharged Vacuum Cleaner (introduced as an energy saving measure) You can now also get your Blue Passport (if the Passport Office is operating, designed in France and printed in Poland) This then entitles you to quEUe for up to 3 hours at your Airport of choice and have the same misery at your destination That is of course if you haven't been unlucky enough to book with BA who have cancelled hundreds of flights because they have lost 30% of their workforce No not because they've fucked off up the Vale but returned to their own country because they couldn't be arsed going through the UK Visa rigmarole when they can have free movement of employment in mainland Europe Some people are just never grateful |
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 19:16:08 GMT
So why is London growing then Is that despite or because of brexit or has brexit got fuck all to do with it London: Construction and Financial Services Ni:Because they remain in Single Market |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 10, 2022 9:28:38 GMT
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 10, 2022 9:35:59 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 10, 2022 11:25:04 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 10, 2022 14:17:15 GMT
Figures I think you mean modelling and that will be as accurate as the covid modelling espicially from such an unbiased source but if you want to believe that figure cost of membership would be £32 billion a year now so brexit is already saving us money  |
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